Morality in Downton Abbey: Tarnishing The Silver

[SilverShadow]

There's a lot of discussion of general character morality going on in the episode threads, so I thought maybe it should have its own topic.

 

 

I'll start by bringing this over from the 5.06 thread.

 

 

In today's world Edith could have as many children as she wanted with no public censure at all.... But adultery would still mean that crazy Mrs. Gregson would win the divorce even now. I'm probably harder on Gregson, truth be told, because he's the one who took the vow [...]

 

Lets assume Gregson was honest about his circumstances. I think initially Fellowes and co planned on it being more complicated, but had to adjust plans when they couldn't retain the actor, and it's unlikely to be brought up again, so there's no point going down the 'what if he was a secret asshole?' road.

 

So, according to Gregson, his wife had a condition severe enough for her to be institutionalized. Lets say severe Schizophrenia, so we have something to picture. What marriage is left to protect or honor? They can't share a life together, which is the very mechanism marriage is for. Is he supposed to remain celibate for the rest of her life? What if she lives to be 70, 80? I'm not saying he shouldn't still provide her care, but I don't think Gregson should have to remain alone for potentially the rest of his life due to circumstances he couldn't have foreseen.

 

It's not as though he's coming home late to his long suffering-wife who's waiting patiently for him, only for her to see another woman's lipstick on his collar when he walks through the door. She can't hold up her side of their vows either, through no fault of her own, and technically she 'broke' them first. It's a bad situation. I think Gregson tried to do the right thing. Once he realized he had serious feelings for Edith, he sought a divorce somewhere where the laws had caught up to common sense, rather than expect Edith to be his mistress indefinitely.

 

In 2015 Gregson could have successfully divorced his wife when he felt there was no hope of recovery and there wouldn't have been any reason for the adultery to occur.

Edited February 14, 2015 by SilverShadow

[Too Late Kev]

True. But where was he between the time he stopped writing and when he died? Dod Edith tell him she thought she was pregnant?

 

Wouldn't it be interesting if we discovered that Edith had sent him a letter ("Dear Soon-to-be-Dad...") and he decided to stay in Germany to avoid her? (Just kidding...I'm sure his interest in her was genuine and he would have welcomed a baby -- and figured out a good cover story of some kind!)

 

I love the sub-title to this thread.

[Andorra]

He went missing the day he arrived in Germany! So they had sex the night before he left. Then he went on the ferry, arrived in Munich probably the same evening or a day later, went out of the hotel into a pub and never arrived back.

 

How could Edith have known she was pregnant then?? She found out much later when he was already missing.

 

Gregson's wife doesn't even recognize him for heaven's sake!  [snip]  I don't see ANYTHING immoral in Gregson falling in love with Edith or in Edith falling in love with him! It's only human.

 

Poor Edith had sex ONCE in her life. Once and she paid a bitter price. Women in 1924 couldn't just "do what they want". They had to follow the rules or they lost everything. She probably didn't even know much about sex. She didn't know that there were ways to prevent a pregnancy. She might even have thought (or told) that it was impossible to fall pregnant from the very first time. But she did and Gregson wasn't there to help her. She had to rely on Rosamund and Violet, two good women, but women who would not even allow the concept of her keeping the child. It was completely clear for them that she had to give the child up and so their only advice was how it could be accomplished. Edith never saw a possibility of keeping Marigold.

 

Then she underestimated the bond with her child. She carried her for 9 months, she was the only connection left to the man she loved and then she nursed her for several months. It was unbearable for her to give her up and she brought her to the Drewes to be close to her. As we saw, this didn't work out and wasn't enough. And also Mrs Drewe didn't want Edith to come near the child.

 

In  the end the love for Marigold was stronger than any fear and she made a brave and RIGHT decision!

Edited February 14, 2015 by photo fox
edited for tone

[fishcakes]

Posters are saying that in the context of the times in which Edith lived, she would be considered a whore and Marigold a bastard, and those are the words that have been used (and usually in scare quotes) because those are the words that would have been used in 1924, as Edith very well knows having called her sister a whore. They're not saying or likely even thinking those labels are fair or accurate, just that given the reality of the era, that's what Edith is facing and what she's imposing on the rest of the family and Marigold in particular. No one here seems to have a problem with the idea that Edith had sex or had a child; the problem is that Edith knows what claiming her child will do not just to her own reputation, but also that of her family and of the child she purportedly claims to love so much.

Edited February 14, 2015 by photo fox

[ZoloftBlob]

Actually Edith called her sister a slut, not a whore. ;)

 

And I agree - I freely state that in 2015 context, Edith has done only one thing wrong, and that is knowingly take up with a married man - regardless of his circumstances, a married man is not available to single women. Be flirty, have a child out of wedlock,... what evs  in 2015. In 2015, Edith probably would have had her dad and mom ask her if she was gay, and drive her to the actual hospital for her abortion. And in 2015, Edith probably would have been on birth control and already had sex with a few boyfriends in college and none of that would have been noteworthy at all. Likewise, the entire years long dance about Pamuk - in 2015, it would be noteworthy that Pamuk *died* in intercourse, but aside from a few laughs, Mary's entire future wouldn't be *ruined*, and she wouldn't be considered spoiled for all decent men and she wouldn't have to *confess* to a prospective husband that she wasn't a virgin.

 

But in 1924, things were different. A girl who slept with a man and it was found out *was ruined*. All of Edith's behavior, in hiding her pregnancy and placing her child with others has all been to avoid the same label she cheerfully slapped on her sister

[Andorra]

 

As a result Edith has ruined her daughter's life.  Marigold will never get into a decent school, girls club, be presented, or make a good marriage

 

Where do you take this idea from? She will grow up with wealth, get a much better education and inherit her father's publishing company when Edith dies. She will certainly not be presented (nor will Sybbie) and she will probably not marry someone with a title, but she will be free to marry a good middleclass man just as Sybbie will.

Edith has not ruined her daughter's life, she has given her much better chances!

[ZoloftBlob]

It depends a bit on how you look at it. There will be money and as much education as Edith got - which really wasn't much and was geared toward Edith being a high society wife. She will be raised in a family with titles and she will know she is titleless and can never aspire to such as she is illegitimate. Many a good middle class man won't be so taken with an illegitimate bride. Now, does Marigold have more opportunities as the legitimate adopted daughter of the pig farmer? To our modern senses, yes but part of the unpleasant aspect of being illegitimate is really.... the very terminology. This is a time period where as a bastard Crawley, Marigold will always know she is the result of sin and the children she is raised with - Sybbie and George (raised with in theory anyway) are legitimate and have parents who did the right thing while Marigold is *illegitimate* and doomed by birth to always be less. Unfortunately that's the morality of the era.

 

Now I will make the argument she's still better off with Edith because she's more likely to hit at least a middle class lifestyle, while if she stays with the Drewes, she will always be a Yorkshire accented farm woman  - class wise she ends up in a better place. But emotionally? She might be happier with the Drewes.  

[Constantinople]

It's not as though he's coming home late to his long suffering-wife who's waiting patiently for him, only for her to see another woman's lipstick on his collar when he walks through the door. She can't hold up her side of their vows either, through no fault of her own, and technically she 'broke' them first.

 

The wedding vows in the the Book of Common Prayer include

 

I M. take thee N. to my wedded Wife, to have and to hold from this day forward, for better for worse, for richer for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish, till death us do part, according to God's holy ordinance; and thereto I plight thee my troth.

 

though I don't know if Mr. & Mrs. Gregson are members of the Church of England.

 

I haven't seen anyone here slut-shaming Edith. Posters are saying that in the context of the times in which Edith lived, she would be considered a whore and Marigold a bastard, and those are the words that have been used (and usually in scare quotes) because those are the words that would have been used in 1924, as Edith very well knows having called her sister a whore.

 

Actually Edith called her sister a slut, not a whore. ;)

As ZoloftBlob noted, Edith called Mary a slut

 

Mary: Is it true you wrote to the Turkish ambassador about Kemal?

Edith: Who told you?

Mary: Someone who knows that you did.

Edith: Then why are you asking?

Mary: Because I wanted to give you one last chance to deny it.

Edith: And what if I did? He had a right to know how his countryman died. In the arms of a slut.

It was my understanding that a whore accepts payment, while a slut is a sexually promiscuous or has low sexual morals

[AZChristian]

Well Lady Almina (former owner of Highclere House where Downton Abbey is filmed) was illegitimate, but seems to have done well for herself.

[ZoloftBlob]

I would consider her a rare exception. I mean, part of why she is noted is that she married well despite her illegitimate birth.

[Constantinople]

Well Lady Almina (former owner of Highclere House where Downton Abbey is filmed) was illegitimate, but seems to have done well for herself.

 

Although Lady Almina's biological father was a Rothschild, her mother, Marie Wombwell, and her mother's husband, Frederick Wombwell, were married at the time, so she had a fig leaf of legitimacy that Marigold doesn't have.  Moreover, Rothschild was probably a lot richer than Gregson.

 

Also, technically Highclere was owned by Lady Almina's husband, the Earl of Carnavon.

[Andorra]

It depends a bit on how you look at it. There will be money and as much education as Edith got - which really wasn't much and was geared toward Edith being a high society wife. She will be raised in a family with titles and she will know she is titleless and can never aspire to such as she is illegitimate. Many a good middle class man won't be so taken with an illegitimate bride. Now, does Marigold have more opportunities as the legitimate adopted daughter of the pig farmer? To our modern senses, yes but part of the unpleasant aspect of being illegitimate is really.... the very terminology. This is a time period where as a bastard Crawley, Marigold will always know she is the result of sin and the children she is raised with - Sybbie and George (raised with in theory anyway) are legitimate and have parents who did the right thing while Marigold is *illegitimate* and doomed by birth to always be less. Unfortunately that's the morality of the era.

 

Now I will make the argument she's still better off with Edith because she's more likely to hit at least a middle class lifestyle, while if she stays with the Drewes, she will always be a Yorkshire accented farm woman  - class wise she ends up in a better place. But emotionally? She might be happier with the Drewes.  

 

About her education: Edith can give her any educations she likes. She is a new generation. She is working and she has learned that it is unwise to rely on prospects of marriage. I'm very sure she will want a different education for Marigold then the old governess education that she received herself. 'Im also sure Tom will see to Sybbie's education and why shouldn't Marigold and Sybbie not go to grammar school together one day?

 

 

Noone knows she is illegitimate, so why should she be stigmatized. In the eyes of the world she is a legitimate child who's parents both died and she is now the ward of the Earl of Grantham's family. Other than not being from Aristocratic blood (like Sybbie), she has no other stigma.

 

And emotionally? I don't know if the Drewe's family was such a happy and warm family. Mr. Drewe certainly had very old views about how to treat his wife (lying?) and she was nice enough but not exactly what I call an emotionally warmer family than the Crawleys. Marigold is dearly loved by her mother and Edith will not allow her to be treated badly.

[Badger]

I don't see any of the Crawleys being cruel to Marigold on account of the circumstances of her birth.  The outside world could be a different story.

 

It seems to be a good rule of thumb that anytime a virgin in a period drama has sex with her boyfriend the night before he leaves for war or for an extended journey of some kind, he will die and she will end up pregnant.

[SilverShadow]

 

The wedding vows in the the Book of Common Prayer include

 

 

I M. take thee N. to my wedded Wife, to have and to hold from this day forward, for better for worse, for richer for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish, till death us do part, according to God's holy ordinance; and thereto I plight thee my troth.

 

though I don't know if Mr. & Mrs. Gregson are members of the Church of England.

 

Can Mrs. Gregson, supposedly mentally unstable in an institution, "love and cherish" Gregson? Is she "having and holding?" I don't agree that unless Gregson remains celibate as long as she's physically alive, he's a bad person. When Mrs. Gregson had to be institutionalized and it was clear there would be no recovery, that was in every practical way the end of their marriage. Gregson tried to find a way to match his legal status to the reality of his situation. If Mrs. Gregson was mentally well and able to have an opinion about the state of things that would be different.

 

Bottom line: I don't consider Gregson an adulterer morally, whatever the English law of the time said.

Edited February 14, 2015 by SilverShadow

[photo fox]

Per what I just posted in the latest episode topic...

 

At this point, I don't think anyone is changing anyone else's mind about Edith (or Mary).  There are roughly 72 other regular Downton characters, so until the next episode airs, have a conversation about some of them and let the Edith and/or Mary conversation cool down,  I'll be deleting without notice any posts that violate this.

 

Just remember, everyone, we're at a dinner party.  You don't want to be Sarah Bunting, stridently stating your opinions even though you're making other people uncomfortable and your host(ess) angry.  Keep it light.  Snarky, but light.

 

Also, do not tell others what to post.  If you see something that violates PTV's rules, report it.  If it doesn't violate the rules, disagree and move on.

[Andorra]

Can Mrs. Gregson, supposedly mentally unstable in an institution, "love and cherish" Gregson? Is she "having and holding?" I don't agree that unless Gregson remains celibate as long as she's physically alive, he's a bad person. When Mrs. Gregson had to be institutionalized and it was clear there would be no recovery, that was in every practical way the end of their marriage. Gregson tried to find a way to match his legal status to the reality of his situation. If Mrs. Gregson was mentally well and able to have an opinion about the state of things that would be different.

 

Bottom line: I don't consider Gregson an adulterer morally, whatever the English law of the time said.

 

THIS!

 

As long as he takes care of her financially and sees to her wellbeing as far as he is able to, I don't see him as an adulterer. He CAN'T hurt his wife emotionally, because she doesn't even know his name!

[ZoloftBlob]

Can Mrs. Gregson, supposedly mentally unstable in an institution, "love and cherish" Gregson? Is she "having and holding?"

 

At the time of the vow, I would nominally say yes. And there's this part:

 

for better for worse, for richer for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish, till death us do part

 

There's no "unless you go crazy" addendum to the in sickness and in health part.

 

I mean, believe me, I get that it sucks for Gregson and in 2015, no one would blink at a man divorcing a wife with an illness but it is still a bit frowned on, even now.

[JudyObscure]

She can't hold up her side of their vows either, through no fault of her own, and technically she 'broke' them first.

 

I don't think Mrs. Gregson has broken any vows through her illness, anymore than a woman paralyzed in a hunting accident has broken her vows by no longer " having and holding."  Schizophrenia might cause her to have enough psychotic episodes to make it safer for her to be in a hospital than at home, but she probably has lucid periods where she would love to see her husband.  The 1920's were far away from the 1950's and 60's when anti-psychotic medication began to be used but, even then, some treatments were fairly effective and there was always hope for improvement with age.  I've read biographies of Zelda Fitzgerald that say she constantly longed for visits from her husband and didn't get them because he had pretty much abandoned her there.  I'm not saying I blame Gregson for wanting to divorce her and have a normal marriage with Edith, but I would never think of blaming the ill wife for any part of the marriage break down, and I do think the most honorable reading of his marriage vows would have kept Gregson faithful to her.

[moonb]

Are we supposed to hold Gregson and his wife to different standards than the aristocracy, I wonder? (No, I don't have an answer.) But presumably Edith is in a precarious position because of her never-married state and child, similarly to the 'scandal' surrounding Pamuk and Mary.

But the show's also given us Lady Anstruther and JImmy having an extramarital affair - though I think she was widowed and it was played more for comedy, just like Edith's story of bed swapping among the upper classes (not a scandal as long as you played the game and kept everything secret).

 There's also Violet and Kuragin, both implied to be unhappily married to other people. At this point, it's a path not taken and presumably Violet and her children would have dealt with a lot of social censure if she had left her marriage. But is she as guilty as Edith or Mary were? Does it make a difference if the adultery happens in an aristocratic marriage of obligation versus something like Robert and Cora's love match? 

[SilverShadow]

I don't think Mrs. Gregson has broken any vows through her illness, anymore than a woman paralyzed in a hunting accident has broken her vows by no longer " having and holding."  Schizophrenia might cause her to have enough psychotic episodes to make it safer for her to be in a hospital than at home, but she probably has lucid periods where she would love to see her husband.  The 1920's were far away from the 1950's and 60's when anti-psychotic medication began to be used but, even then, some treatments were fairly effective and there was always hope for improvement with age.  I've read biographies of Zelda Fitzgerald that say she constantly longed for visits from her husband and didn't get them because he had pretty much abandoned her there.  I'm not saying I blame Gregson for wanting to divorce her and have a normal marriage with Edith, but I would never think of blaming the ill wife for any part of the marriage break down, and I do think the most honorable reading of his marriage vows would have kept Gregson faithful to her.

 

I don't blame her, just as I don't blame Gregson. I'm saying that the reality was, because of her illness, the marriage was effectively over. A relationship requires two people who are able to consent and relate to each other. And a woman who is paralyzed can still recognize and have, if nothing else, an emotional relationship with her husband. The situation isn't really comparable. We don't know the specifics of Mrs. Gregson's condition, but assuming Gregson is telling the truth, she does not know who he is, full stop. There is no longer a mutual relationship to have. Do I think he should support her, and possibly even visit if she was coherent enough to want it, yes. But to my mind, ending a marriage that no longer exists except on paper is not a sin.

 

If instead of being ill, Mrs. Gregson physically left their home  and disappeared, should he have been expected to keep faithful? According to English law at the time, yes. And that went for both sexes. Just to show how iron-clad divorce laws were at the time.

Edited February 14, 2015 by SilverShadow

[moonb]

The partners in a matched couple might not have cared if their spouse cheated, only if they get caught.

As for Violet. She would never have seen her kids again.

 

Which would explain at least Violet's response to Edith's predicament. If Violet had to put her family's standing and interests ahead of her own happiness because she crossed a certain moral line, Edith should be able to as well. 

[shipperx]

It's kind of pointless to wonder about Marigold's marital prospects since by the time she's twenty its more likely she'll be worrying about being killed in an air raid, most of the boys.in her age range run the risk of dying in any number of horrific ways be it evacuating Dunkirk or invading France. And Downton will either be sheltering soldiers or housing displaced orphans escaping the blitz. She could end up falling for an American soldier and moving to Ohio for all we could guess. At any rate it will be an entirely different world by then.

[Avaleigh]

She will certainly not be presented (nor will Sybbie)

There isn't any reason that Sybbie shouldn't be presented if she continues to be a constant presence on the Crawley side of the family. Mary could present her and arrange her coming out. She'd be part of the seasons of 1938-1939. They didn't have the traditional presentation at court during either war and the entire ritual was eventually stopped in 1958 though "the season" still proceeds in an unofficial fashion to this day. (Princess Margaret commented that they had to put a stop to the presentations at court because "every tart in London was getting in".) The rules were a bit more strict before WWII and very strict before WWI but in the time between the wars there was definitely some bending of the old rules so I can't see why Sybbie would be excluded from having a society debut provided the Crawleys (and Tom) were willing to make it happen. 

 

Marigold is of debutante age during the war years so even if she were eligible it's likely that she'd miss it as many girls who were born when she was born ended up missing theirs. I don't think it's impossible that she could have a society debut though depending on what sort of story the Crawleys put out there regarding her birth and parents.

[JudyObscure]

Going in another direction regarding Edith and morality:  We've touched on this in the other threads but I wonder what her views really are regarding sex with married men.  We know she kissed the farmer. I excused that at the time as an impulse of the moment, stemming from physical attraction and propinquity, and I like to think it wouldn't have gone beyond that kiss.  Some people think Edith saw that as "cutsey adorable," but I don't think Edith has ever seen herself that way for a single minute of her life.  I think she sees herself as put-upon, unlovable and inferior and she probably felt ashamed afterward.

 

An entirely different situation was Edith sleeping with Gregson.  I can completely understand and sympathize with, her actions from the view point of a woman who had been in love with a man for a long time and felt she was hurting no one.  However, she did know that he was married and it's my understanding that wedding vows in the Judeo-Christian tradition apply to the community as well as the two people getting married.  "What God has joined together, let no man put asunder," is the part directed at the rest of us.  So I do think Edith was as at fault as Gregson was, if nothing else she was aiding and abetting in his "sin."  I can't help comparing Edith to Jane Eyre who was equally lonely and in love and, unlike Edith, had no home to go to, but left Thornwood the moment she found out Rochester had a wife, insane or not.  I know that's a high standard, but it would have been the standard Edith was raised on, there was no  Sex-in-the-City in her experience to suggest there was anything cute about unmarried sex. 

 

So how does Edith see herself?  Is she ashamed, proud of having made her own rules, or only concerned about how she is perceived by the county?

[ShadowFacts]

Edith is maybe very conflicted.  She knows other people have unmarried sex and get away with it.  The insane wife is thorny, but she thinks that divorce will take care of that, and  it is Gregson who is proactive about that (unless he's a big fat scammer and is still alive somewere).  I think she is ashamed where her family is concerned, certainly doesn't want her father or Mary knowing.  She was horrified to think that Mrs. Drewe might guess the truth, preferred her thinking she was having an affair with Tim.  Oh, that's telling, she'd rather be known as abetting adultery than as an unwed mother. So, having sex with a married man, not proud of it but that's not nearly as bad as getting caught at it via pregnancy?  Is it part of her entitlement mindset, sort of I'm a Lady of this powerful family who you rent your farm from, I can dally with your husband, keep your mouth shut Mrs. Drewe? 

[ZoloftBlob]

Some people think Edith saw that as "cutsey adorable," but I don't think Edith has ever seen herself that way for a single minute of her life.  I think she sees herself as put-upon, unlovable and inferior and she probably felt ashamed afterward

 

I called it her thinking it was cutesy adorable because after the fact, after she lost the job that gave her meaning and fulfillment, she never seemed to connect the dots that she didn't lose the job because all bad things happen to much put upon Edith but because Mrs. Drake caught her flirting and kissing Mr, Drake. I would have forgiven that as "she was young" if she didn't follow it up dating Gregson who she knew was married, and pretty openly engaging Mr. Drewe like they were a couple in front of Mrs. Drewe. As Mr. Drewe openly agrees with the younger lady of the manor and helps her get his way against his wife and has numerous private meetings with said young lady, I can totally see where Mrs. Drewe's mind went and Edith as usual, has no understanding how her behavior comes off and pouts when she is finally called on it.

[fishcakes]

I think she sees herself as put-upon, unlovable and inferior and she probably felt ashamed afterward.

 

I agree that Edith sees herself as put-upon, but not unlovable so much as unloved (unjustifiably so in her view, but, well, others get it), and inferior is tricky. I think she has the kind of self-esteem that present-day reality dating show contestants have; they think they're better than everyone else, but still hate themselves enough to go on a reality dating show. Her entire life seems like one self-sabotage after another, and trying to take men who are already committed to or intended for other women seems like standard operating procedure for Edith, beginning with her unsuccessful attempts to woo Patrick Crawley and later Matthew Crawley. I don't think she wanted either one for himself; I think she just wanted to usurp Mary's position as the future Countess of Grantham. Later she was desperate to believe that the man who returned after the war claiming to be Patrick and claiming to love her, not Mary, really was Patrick despite the evidence that he wasn't. I doubt she would have found him so credible if his intention was to claim his inheritance and Mary as his wife. Even with Strallen, I don't think Edith would have been initially interested in him, except that her parents wanted him for Mary as a way out of the potential Pamouk scandal.

 

All of this competition with her sister -- which I think is one-sided because Mary seriously could not care less about what Edith is doing -- seems to have set the pattern for Edith. It's not enough for her to have a husband or love; she has to have triumphed over some other woman in the process, be it Mary, or Mrs. Drake, or Mrs. Gregson, or now Mrs. Drewe.

 

As for ashamed? I've never seen that in her. Entitled, yes. And angry that others don't share her high opinion of herself. But she's never shown any shame for her own actions. The other possibility is that she's so ashamed that she can't even admit it to herself, and all of her relentless bad decisions are a way to punish herself. Unfortunately, a lot of other people get hurt in the process.

 

The sad thing is that I don't think she's inherently unlovable, but she's pretty much structured things to turn out that way. If she had lived her own life without regard to What Mary Has and later Why Does Some Grubby Farm Woman Have A Husband And Children When I Don't, and instead maybe spent her time seeking out someone who was interested in her and wasn't already married, I think she could have a happy life. At the very least, she wouldn't have caused all this chaos in so many other people's lives and that goes a long way towards a person's own well-being.

Edited February 19, 2015 by fishcakes

[moonb]

The sad thing is that I don't think she's inherently unlovable, but she's pretty much structured things to turn out that way. If she had lived her own life without regard to What Mary Has and later Why Does Some Grubby Farm Woman Have A Husband And Children When I Don't, and instead maybe spent her time seeking out someone who was interested in her and wasn't already married, I think she could have a happy life. At the very least, she wouldn't have caused all this chaos in so many other people's lives and that goes a long way towards a person's own well-being.

 

I agree with this. I thought Edith may have really loved Patrick Crawley, but his being intended for Mary and Mary's higher "marketability" for marriage led her to a lot of resentment and competition like you said. Strallan's interest in her was both a "win" for her and legitimately flattering - a man would pick her over Mary, after all! 

But that's how Edith has lived her life for the past dozen years: on the one hand struggling to get beyond Mary's sort of life and carve out a niche for herself - which led her to the kiss with Drake and the affair with Gregson; and on the other hand wanting convention, marriage and her family's validation for being herself.  Edith probably is very conflicted about sleeping with Gregson, but I could absolutely believe her telling herself "this is okay because I deserve this little bit of happiness after playing second fiddle to my sister, being jilted, and so on."  Her fear that she is the least loved leads her to do these callous things to people like the Drewes, inadvertently causing them a lot of trouble and pain, because she just wants this one little thing and feels she deserves it, whether that's feeling desirable to the farmer, the love affair with Gregson, or having her secret daughter nearby. She may be both ashamed and feel she's entitled to what she wants. I'm sympathetic to Edith, but if she were living in 2015, she'd be the 30-year-old still dragging around her ugly duckling teenager self-image.

Edited February 19, 2015 by moonb

[shipperx]

She was horrified to think that Mrs. Drewe might guess the truth, preferred her thinking she was having an affair with Tim. Oh, that's telling, she'd rather be known as abetting adultery than as an unwed mother. So, having sex with a married man, not proud of it but that's not nearly as bad as getting caught at it via pregnancy? Is it part of her entitlement mindset, sort of I'm a Lady of this powerful family who you rent your farm from, I can dally with your husband, keep your mouth shut Mrs. Drewe?

I think it's far more simple and oblivious than that. She knew the accusation that she was flirting with Mr. Drewe was false so she dismissed it. It's a lack of seeing things from someone else's'so point of view, so it absolutely is entitlement...but I don't know that it's specifically classist. A lot of people have difficulty seeing situations from another's point of view. Fan forums are full of them. In Edith's head it was simple. It wasn't true. therefore not relevant even though from Mrs Drewe's POV it was abslutely relevant. (Mrs. Drewe is also guilty of this sin. See the explanations of her going to Cora for (theories abound) be it concern that Edith is a dilletante (after discovering that Edith is bio mom and thus her interest in marigold explained) or (alternate theory) she went to Cora in hopes that Cora would be horrified of possible scandal and (mrs Drewe would hope) Cora pressure Edith to return to the prior status quo) or embarrassing Edith before Rosamund, an action which would only exacerbate tensions with their landlord because that's the way public embarrassing backlash works, and thus unlikely to help mrs drew's own situation in the long term even without knowing the truth, to ripping up a birth certificate in the face of a bio mom).

People easily blind themselves to how things look through the other person's eyes. We usually feature as hero or heroine within our own view of what's going on. It's empathy that is the challenging bit.

In general I tend to lean on the old axiom to not attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by obliviousness.

Btw Mary could care less. If she had no feeling she would not stop Edith on her way out the door to demand she give her opinion then call her a buzzkill, or make denigrating comments regarding Edith --sometimes for no real reason-- or to strike back to 'even a score' by lying to Strallen. If Mary truly 'could not care less' there would be less biting snark... Which isn't to say she cares much either. Just that there must be something there, otherwise there would be more silence and fewer put-downs. (Plus, given Mary snagging two other women's fiancés, why is she being acquitted of the 'need to triumph over the competition?' If one is of the bent to do so, a similar case could be made for her, and it even might explain the 'could care less' quirk, because the 'caring' isn't affection).

Edited February 19, 2015 by shipperx

[ShadowFacts]

 

I think it's far more simple and oblivious than that. She knew the accusation that she was flirting with Mr. Drewe was false so she dismissed it. It's a lack of seeing things from someone else's'so point of view, so it absolutely is entitlement...but I don't know that it's specifically classist.

 

My main point in answering JudyObscure's question of how Edith sees herself was that she was more aghast at someone finding out her secret about her child than that she may have been messing around with a married man.  Though the power imbalance is obvious where the Drewes are concerned, she has said from the beginning she and her bastard child wouldn't be welcome in anyone's drawing room.  It's the child-out-of-wedlock she's trying to conceal; consorting with married men, not as much.  I think she is neither malicious nor oblivious, just selfish.  She wants what she wants and to hell with what's right or in the best interest of anyone but her.  And that comes in part from a long history of being in Mary's shadow as others have mentioned, but also from her experiences of what money and power can accomplish.

[fishcakes]

Btw Mary could care less. If she had no feeling she would not stop Edith on her way out the door to demand she give her opinion then call her a buzzkill, or make denigrating comments regarding Edith --sometimes for no real reason-- or to strike back to 'even a score' by lying to Strallen. If Mary truly 'could not care less' there would be less biting snark... Which isn't to say she cares much either. Just that there must be something there, otherwise there would be more silence and fewer put-downs. (Plus, given Mary snagging two other women's fiancés, why is she being acquitted of the 'need to triumph over the competition?' If one is of the bent to do so, a similar case could be made for her, and it even might explain the 'could care less' quirk, because the 'caring' isn't affection).

 

When I said Mary couldn't care less, I was talking about the rivalry between Edith and Mary and that being one-sided on Edith's part because Mary does not view Edith as a rival. I didn't mean that Mary has no feelings regarding Edith; she obviously has negative feelings toward her. As for Mary stealing two other women's fiances, I don't agree that that's what happened.  Despite Tony's persistence, Mary was very discouraging to him when he was engaged to Mabel and told him more than once that he should marry Mabel because she was still mourning Matthew and didn't envision ever having feelings for Tony. It was only after he broke it off with Mabel of his own accord that they began to see each other. And with Matthew, Mary was nothing but respectful of Lavinia and their engagement even though she and Matthew still loved each other. As I recall, she was concerned about Lavinia's feelings the night she saw Mary and Matthew dancing, not because Mary felt they had been caught doing anything wrong, but because she was afraid that Lavinia would misinterpret things and be hurt.

[RedHawk]

Many a good middle class man won't be so taken with an illegitimate bride.

 

 

And some won't care about her origins because they will fall in love with her. She could tell her future husband the whole story, as Edith should one day explain to her, and he, like Matthew Crawley, would say, "Hey, that was them, this is us, and I still want to marry you." 

 

We don't know what will happen next. Edith may yet end up married to a peer. She may send Marigold to school in America. While it may seem so in 1924, if the secret does come out one day, Marigold won't necessarily have poor future prospects just because of her illegitimate birth.