Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard

[TheGreenKnight]

I thought it was implied she wanted to move on from Regina and use the grandchild instead since Regina wouldn't cooperate.

[YaddaYadda]

8 minutes ago, TheGreenKnight said:

I thought it was implied she wanted to move on from Regina and use the grandchild instead since Regina wouldn't cooperate.

It was implied, but then Cora said she wanted Regina to have a child for herself, and Regina told her she just wanted to use the child. So who knows, really.

[Shanna Marie]

28 minutes ago, Camera One said:

What happened to wanting her to marry up?

Regina was already the queen at that point. She'd made it. And in the way she'd taken over after killing Leopold, it wasn't just about having been married to the king, so her child would have been next in line for the throne.

[Camera One]

That's true.  Though if she married another King, they could have an amalgamated larger kingdom.  King George was still single.  

Though I guess the point of that episode was Cora was actually looking out for Regina... since Regina is her own worse enemy, not Cora.

Edited August 15, 2016 by Camera One

[TheGreenKnight]

Responding in A Thread for All Seasons.

Edited August 15, 2016 by TheGreenKnight

[Curio]

For what it's worth, I think Jane and Lana did an audio commentary for "Mother" where they implied that Cora genuinely had good intentions towards Regina.

39 minutes ago, Camera One said:

A&E are really quite obsessed with the Cora/Regina relationship.  

Legitimate Question: Has Cora/Regina been explored more thoroughly than Snow/Emma throughout the series? Not including Season 1—because that Mary Margaret character was practically an entirely different person—it kind of seems like Regina and Cora have gone through a much larger and more epic mother/daughter arc than Snow and Emma have gotten.

[Camera One]

2 hours ago, Curio said:

Legitimate Question: Has Cora/Regina been explored more thoroughly than Snow/Emma throughout the series? Not including Season 1—because that Mary Margaret character was practically an entirely different person—it kind of seems like Regina and Cora have gone through a much larger and more epic mother/daughter arc than Snow and Emma have gotten.

The answer is a resounding Underworld Yes.

[Rumsy4]

I don't know where this is from, but here's a deleted Captain Swan scene right after Emma rescues Hook. So sweet!! 

The torture still gets me. :-/

Edited August 16, 2016 by Rumsy4

[Shanna Marie]

Well, now we know how he got the hook back. But it's funny that she took the time to do that but not to wave her hand and heal him and clean him up. He was dripping blood, barely standing, dragging a leg when he walked, and clutching his ribs when he breathed. But she hauled him back to the boat and then back to the house, then to the cemetary and back before finally waving her hand to heal him and clean him up. Really, Emma?

[mjgchick]

They wanted that "Oh Killian" moment  from Snow that's why.

 

This show is so stupid. 

[KAOS Agent]

Emma wasn't supposed to use magic while in the caves because Hades would know they were there, so that's why she didn't heal him initially. The rest is just stupid plot. At least she gave him his hook back immediately instead of hauling it around town for hours like she did his heart.

I understand why they cut the scene, but Emma's entire reason for being in the Underworld was to save Hook and the reunion/rescue scene we got was pretty underwhelming payoff for all that angst. Not 23 second bathroom hallway bad, but still pretty lackluster for such a big plotline. I wish they would find more time for these moments because they are important to give the show an emotional heart instead of plot, plot, action, action that leads nowhere and where none of the characters actually get to be real people with real feelings and reactions.

[YaddaYadda]

You know which scene they could have done away with? The one where Regina heals the horse since they cut every scene about her having defective magic. That scene made absolutely no sense within the episode because as viewers, we had no idea she was having trouble with her magic.

They could have cut that scene and kept the extended Emma/Hook scene.

[KingOfHearts]

From the Spoilers thread, spoilers omitted:

Quote

I also think [Hyde] will be Regina's True Love. (Because Robin was just her "soulmate." Not her "true love.")

I could totally ship Hyde with Regina. He doesn't seem like someone who would care about her villainous past, they're both into magic, both seem to run their own versions of "Storybrooke", and have this good/evil splitting thing going on. They're a far better match than Outlaw Queen just on paper alone. I honestly wish something like this happened earlier in the series with Robin never even existing. If it turns out the pixie dust was wrong or its soulmate vs. True Love, I think that cheats Robin even more, though. It's like, "Oops. Wrong boyfriend. Sorry, you have to die. Onto what's behind door #2!"

Edited August 18, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

In theory, Hyde Queen has good potential. But that's what I thought about Outlaw Queen as well. One can hope the writers recognize the missteps they made with OQ and correct them. However, I just don't trust the writers to give Regina a relationship that will actually challenge her. Hyde may end up being yet another person who worships at Regina's altar. 

[YaddaYadda]

I think the ship has sailed on a romance for Regina.

[KAOS Agent]

I think if they go to a Season 7, Regina could get a feature romance. If it ends in S6, there could be a flirtation with hints of real potential (and maybe a happily ever after in an epilogue), but I don't think they can cram in a full blown romance along with the Regina/EQ storyline this season. It's even less likely considering this show's compressed timeline. Unless there's a significant time jump somewhere, Regina hooking up with some new guy three days after Robin died would be a bit much.

[Camera One]

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Regina hooking up with some new guy three days after Robin died would be a bit much.

These are the same Writers who consider one conversation, a few nicknames or a bike ride enough for a True Love Kiss relationship, so I would be surprised at nothing.  

There have been a surprising number of shows I've watched where they've brought on a love interest for a main character halfway through the final season, and viewers been expected to be joyously satisfied that their favorite character have found "the one".  So there's really nothing showrunners won't do in a rushed (or even a planned) final season.

If the show ends this season, they can always resurrect Robin in the finale, and have Regina reunite with him.  

One initial big mistake of Outlaw Queen was to have Robin well aware of Regina's past as The Evil Queen.  If he had been out of the realm for a long time and didn't live through the The Evil Queen era in the Enchanted Forest, then, there'd be a more organic conflict within Robin once he found out Regina's past because his first impressions of the present Regina was an ally and someone who seemed to care about Roland.

Edited August 18, 2016 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

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Unless there's a significant time jump somewhere, Regina hooking up with some new guy three days after Robin died would be a bit much.

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These are the same Writers who consider one conversation, a few nicknames or a bike ride enough for a True Love Kiss relationship, so I would be surprised at nothing.  

It could possibly be used to fuel Regina's angst machine, though. Imagine all the inner conflict she could be having over having new feelings for someone just days after losing her boyfriend! A&E writing gold, I tell you.

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In theory, Hyde Queen has good potential. But that's what I thought about Outlaw Queen as well. One can hope the writers recognize the missteps they made with OQ and correct them. However, I just don't trust the writers to give Regina a relationship that will actually challenge her. Hyde may end up being yet another person who worships at Regina's altar. 

I think Hyde Queen has a better chance of working out well because you don't have to confront Regina's past for it to succeed. Outlaw Queen was a bit doomed from the start as far as being written as a believable couple. Unfortunately, the opposites-attract element worked against them instead of in their favor. The writers just had no interest in exploring it. With Hyde Queen, I don't think there's anything outstanding the writers would be afraid of addressing. If EQ would even be an issue, she's being dealt with head-on this time. 

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If the show ends this season, they can always resurrect Robin in the finale, and have Regina reunite with him.  

Or if it continues, have a reverse Triangle of Doom incident where Regina's lover comes back to life rather her boyfriend's. (Only this time it's not Zelena posing as them.)

Edited August 18, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Hyde Queen would be easier to believe, much like Hook Queen would have been, since both members of the couple would be working towards redemption, and able to understand each others' struggles with less likely full-out disdain for the other's past morality.  Whereas Belle/Rumple and Robin/Regina were pairings consisting of a super-gooder with their "code", in love with the super-villain, the former believing in the good of the latter, to the point of absurdity.   It does seem like many people enjoy watching their bad boys paired with the good girl with the heart of gold, or vice versa, though.

Edited August 18, 2016 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

After Brennan and TLK while in a sleeping curse, some of you guys are expecting too much. ;-) I don't think Regina is going to fall in love with Hyde the next day. It could start with a team up between Hyde and EQ!Regina against the bad guys. Then, Hyde could have a change of heart if the writers plan to redeem him, and start working with the "heroes" and Regina. There are many ways they could develop this through the season without being rushed.

[mjgchick]

Isn't it the bad boy/girl with a heart of gold hooked up with the good girl/guy who can save them? 

 

Makes ers me appreciate Hook and Emma more because Emma isn't really a good girl but she's definitely not a villain. Hook was a good guy turned vengeful villain who regrets the things he's done in his past. That's why I can't see him and Regina together. She doesn't give a damn that she murdered people and raped Graham. Hyde Queen could work more if he doesn't care about his past either. 

With Robin and Regina they have him know her past and treat it as if she slept with someone's husband but I don't even know if Robin knows she was Marian's original killer or not. The only time I saw an interesting Robin was when he finally had enough with the Regina/Zelena stuff. The one time they had him voice his concerns and even stood up to Regina he dies.

[Curio]

9 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

Imagine all the inner conflict she could be having over having new feelings for someone just days after losing her boyfriend! A&E writing gold, I tell you.

Kind of like the Robin Hood "writing gold" we got when we saw Regina's inner conflict over having new feelings for someone just days after losing her True Love, Henry, in Season 3B? I think I agree with those who think Regina is just too narcissistic and emotionally stunted to ever have a healthy and equally-sided love interest on the show. Let her finish the series with a heroic sacrificial death and find out that Hades was lying about obliterating Robin because she'll be reunited with him as she goes into the light.

[KingOfHearts]

At the very least we could get a Cora/Rumple style pairing between Hyde and the Evil Queen.

[mjgchick]

I don't know if I'd want Regina dead. I hate Henry but losing your mother (even if it is Regina) hurts like a bitch. Just have her learn to be happy and not always get what she wants in her life. Stop being an asshole and find someone who wont let her just run them over like she did Robin.

[mjgchick]

We should have Snow and Emma play paper rock scissors on who gets to babysit Regina. Hook and Charming can play thumb wrestling and then manipulate the Dwarfs into watching her.

[Camera One]

Quote

 

We should have Snow and Emma play paper rock scissors on who gets to babysit Regina. Hook and Charming can play thumb wrestling and then manipulate the Dwarfs into watching her.

Yes, it has become my headcanon to explain all the pathetic things Snow and Emma have to say to Regina.  They're afraid she'll blow up at any time, they think she's unstable, so they go out of their way to provide over-the-top sympathy and empathy whatever something happens which might set Regina off.  Even their suggestion that she divide herself in two could have been preceded with a scene between Emma and Snow deciding this might be the best way to neutralize Regina for good.

Edited August 19, 2016 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

Even their suggestion that she divide herself in two could have been preceded with a scene between Emma and Snow deciding this might be the best way to neutralize Regina for good.

Heh. Wouldn't it have been funny if this had been a S5 DVD deleted scene.

[mjgchick]

That might actually give you a reason to actually sympathize with Regina at least for a second. These two people who claimed to believe in her and she actually believes them then you find out they just want to keep her from harming anyone.

[YaddaYadda]

2 hours ago, mjgchick said:

That might actually give you a reason to actually sympathize with Regina at least for a second. These two people who claimed to believe in her and she actually believes them then you find out they just want to keep her from harming anyone.

Especially after what she said about wanting to rip Hook's throat. It wouldn't be shocking if some of that reasoning went into presenting Regina with that solution.

Of course, now everything is a million times, and the EQ is on the loose.

[Camera One]

Yes, realistically, how do you think Snow would have reacted when Emma told her that Regina said her first impulse was to rip out Hook's throat and that she hated doing good?  

That might actually give you a reason to actually sympathize with Regina at least for a second. These two people who claimed to believe in her and she actually believes them then you find out they just want to keep her from harming anyone.

I wouldn't fault them for worrying, even if they have the best of intentions for Regina.  I don't think one can truly believe in a mass murderer after an emotional loss even after they've done a bunch of good, because their impulses might not be fully controlled.  It would be natural and normal to have caution and be a bit worried, based on the past.  Even Henry (plus Emma and Snow) had some doubt in Regina after the real Marian came back in 5A.  Which was completely normal and understandable.  But the Writers always paint that as being insensitive to Regina, and Emma even had to apologize for doubting her in the 5B finale.  

[Curio]

On August 19, 2016 at 1:03 PM, Camera One said:

But the Writers always paint that as being insensitive to Regina, and Emma even had to apologize for doubting her in the 5B finale.  

Which makes Emma's character look bad for caving and trusting Regina.

I forget which television writer said this recently, but they were discussing how to set up realistic friendships and relationships and how far you should allow a character to date a douchebag before the character looks bad for choosing to be with the douchebag for so long. When you question why the character has poor taste in people, that means the character actually has issues because they chose to align with the douchebag and the relationship becomes unearned. The example the writer used was for a romantic couple on Jane the Virgin, but it applies to friendships as well. Going by the OUAT commentaries, we're supposed to believe Emma and Regina are awesome friends. But when Emma purposely chooses to be friends with Regina, that drags Emma's character down because she's choosing to be friends with the woman who murdered her friend Graham (and still hasn't told her), spent years trying to kill her mom, and apparently hates doing good things. The writers have addressed this issue with Belle—she's shown to have some personal issues because she chooses to be with Rumple, so why isn't Emma shown to have issues for choosing to be friends with Regina? What does Emma get out of the friendship besides some extra magical ammo when a monster comes to town?

I don't understand why the writers always go on and on about how, "We can't let the couples on our show be happy because that's boring, so we need to add conflict," yet they've stopped giving any conflict to Emma and Regina. Why must conflict only be plugged into the main romantic couples? Where's the conflict between Regina and Emma anymore? I might hate the fact that they're friends and it feels totally unearned, but by golly, the writers and actors want me to believe they are, so fine. You guys win. I'll admit Regina and Emma had antagonistic chemistry in Season 1 because there was conflict and drama between them, but they're incredibly boring now when all they do is agree with each other or hand each other root beers. The writers and actors pat themselves on the backs for showing such a "strong female friendship" because women are usually shown to be enemies on television, but isn't that a double standard? The writers can give us two women who support each other, but according to their own words, isn't that boring because there's no conflict? Emma and Hook fought as Dark Ones and had arguments in the Underworld. Snow and Charming bickered in Camelot. Rumple and Belle are a mess. Why are the romantic couples "boring" when they have very little conflict between them, but Regina and Emma are "interesting" when they have very little conflict between them? The REC strikes again...

[KingOfHearts]

Emma and Regina had some mild conflict in 5A with Regina abusing the power of the dagger. But it wasn't on the scale of any of the romantic couples' angst.

[Camera One]

Speaking of conflicts, the heroes' conflicts with Rumple feel so mild despite his screwing them over every other day.  

Edited August 22, 2016 by Camera One

[Curio]

9 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

Emma and Regina had some mild conflict in 5A with Regina abusing the power of the dagger. But it wasn't on the scale of any of the romantic couples' angst.

But the issue is we weren't supposed to see that as conflict. Emma admitted that Regina was right for doing so (and the writers praised Regina for her tactic in the commentaries) and Emma wasn't even mad at her (even though Hook being controlled by the dagger was shown to be a bad thing an episode later). The situation should have led to conflict, but it didn't. Same thing happened when Emma got angry with Regina for 5 seconds in "The Price." Instead of leading to actual conflict between the two, Emma was shown as being mean and driven by her Dark One powers, and the yelling only motivated Regina to become accepted by the town and perform the Guardians of the Galaxy pose.

Quote

Speaking of conflicts, the heroes' conflicts with Rumple feel so mild despite his screwing them over every other day.

 Rumple and Hook is another example of a non-romantic couple the writers should be giving a lot more conflict. Why wasn't Hook allowed to find out about Milah? Why wasn't he allowed to interact with her at all? There's a deleted scene that shows Hook pissed off at Rumple for tricking him and he repeats several times that he wants to kill him. Why didn't that go anywhere? Did Hook and Rumple ever interact beyond that episode?

Edited August 22, 2016 by Curio

[mjgchick]

I honestly wished they kept Snow and Co having issues with Regina like they have with Rumple and Hook because the writers treat the Regina and Snow feud as if they were fighting over a boy when it really was a grown ass woman harassing a child. I'm sorry but you try to kill my mom once you are catching these hands. I don't care if you raised my son (the same one you abused btw) no tries to kill my mom.

[Rumsy4]

32 minutes ago, mjgchick said:

I honestly wished they kept Snow and Co having issues with Regina like they have with Rumple and Hook because the writers treat the Regina and Snow feud as if they were fighting over a boy when it really was a grown ass woman harassing a child. I'm sorry but you try to kill my mom once you are catching these hands. I don't care if you raised my son (the same one you abused btw) no tries to kill my mom.

I have to say that Emma's reaction to Regina after watching Regina burn her mother alive was the lowest point of her character. No one can be that forgiving. She watches Regina do that, and her takeaway is supposed to be that Regina has changed so much. The REC damages all characters. The writers already had Hook distinguish her as distinct from Regina as the "EQ". This Jekyll/Hyde split is nothing new for Regina. They've been whitewashing her this way for years.

Edited August 22, 2016 by Rumsy4

[Shanna Marie]

It's funny that they rely so heavily on contrived relationship drama when there's so much conflict built into all the relationships. Not only is there the big stuff, like between the Charming family and Regina that gets totally ignored or the way Rumple keeps losing people to Hook that they don't really acknowledge, but even the happy relationships have built-in conflict they ignore. Snow is a princess and David is a farm boy. That should give them very different perspectives. She implied that he was cheap under the Shattered Sight spell, but you'd think that would be a real issue for them. Emma and Hook are from entirely different worlds. Even if they love each other and have a lot of experiences in common, a 21st century American woman and a man from a quasi-medieval/Georgian fantasy world who grew up on a ship should have some struggles in coming together. 

I generally think that the "happy couples are boring" statement is a sign of an unimaginative writer. Yeah, a happy couple would make for a bad romance novel, but the romances in this show are subplots. There's so much external conflict that they could get away with having happy couples who just happen to be busy saving the world and who occasionally have to deal with differences in backgrounds and world views. 

[Curio]

24 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

I generally think that the "happy couples are boring" statement is a sign of an unimaginative writer. Yeah, a happy couple would make for a bad romance novel, but the romances in this show are subplots. There's so much external conflict that they could get away with having happy couples who just happen to be busy saving the world and who occasionally have to deal with differences in backgrounds and world views. 

The pairings on the show who realistically should be happy with one another are the ones who are constantly put through the wringer, and the pairings on the the show who realistically should be at each others' throats are given a pass and rarely have conflict anymore. 

[KingOfHearts]

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I generally think that the "happy couples are boring" statement is a sign of an unimaginative writer. 

That statement underestimates the premise of the show. That's nothing boring about fairy tale couples living in modern day America. What made Snowing compelling was not the conflict between each other, but the amount of love they showed through everything they did to be together. Any time they've had fights or disagreements (other than when either of them were cursed in some way), it wasn't what made them interesting. Honestly, most of it was pointless. As Shanna Marie said, in this setting, external conflicts can suffice.

 

Quote

The pairings on the show who realistically should be happy with one another are the ones who are constantly put through the wringer, and the pairings on the the show who realistically should be at each others' throats are given a pass and rarely have conflict anymore. 

Replying in Writing thread. My response is a bit beyond the scope of this thread.

[Shanna Marie]

On 8/22/2016 at 7:36 AM, Curio said:

Rumple and Hook is another example of a non-romantic couple the writers should be giving a lot more conflict.

This fits into what we've been discussing in the Writers thread about them not mining the things they set up. They've given Hook multiple reasons to keep renewing his feud with Rumple -- not only did he kill Milah and cut off Hook's hand, but there was the near heart crushing and using him as a puppet, then there was hijacking the sacrifice to end the darkness. Even if they called a truce about Milah, Hook has good reason to stay angry at Rumple. On the other hand, they don't seem to have developed reasons for Rumple to continue to hate Hook. He seems to still have it in for Hook for "stealing" Milah, but that's a pretty weak reason for doing everything he's done to Hook, given that he murdered Milah himself (twice now), didn't seem to like her all that much and wouldn't have taken her back even if she wanted to go back to him (and he hadn't murdered her). It comes down to him being irked at having a possession taken from him more than him having lost someone he really loved, and he's had more than enough revenge for that. But there are other reasons for Rumple to hate Hook, since it's not just Milah. It's a pattern. Milah fled Rumple because she no longer loved him and ended up with Hook. Bae wanted to get away from Dark One Rumple and ended up with Hook. When Belle is on the outs with Rumple, she turns to Hook. That would imply that there's something in common between them that means the same people are drawn to them, while at the same time Hook is the anti-Rumple, the antidote for people who've been fed up with Rumple. So what is it? Does Rumple have any resentment about that? Has he tried to figure out why this keeps happening? What is he lacking that Hook has? There's a lot they could work with here, but they seem stuck on "I want to kill you because you stole my wife."

[Dianthus]

Hook as the "anti-Rumple" may be part of it, though. Hook is everything Rumple's not - a dashing and adventurous man of action who's traveled the realms. He might also resent the fact that Hook's changed, that the other man has given up on revenge and moved on to find his true love. Here again we see Hook displaying qualities Rumple just can't match. Hook rejected the darkness. Rumple couldn't wait to curl back into its embrace. 

[kitticup]

I think Rumple might hate Hook because Hook is the person alive that knew Rumple as a cowering peasant so to Rumple, Hook might remind him of all the times he felt impotent and cowardly.  Hook might trigger Rumple's self loathing rooted in his fear and lack of power.

[Shanna Marie]

22 hours ago, Dianthus said:

Hook as the "anti-Rumple" may be part of it, though. Hook is everything Rumple's not - a dashing and adventurous man of action who's traveled the realms. He might also resent the fact that Hook's changed, that the other man has given up on revenge and moved on to find his true love.

I'm not sure the show has really acknowledged this, though. It doesn't seem like Rumple is aware of this. He's still harping on the "I hate you because you stole my wife and spent a lot of time trying to kill me" thing. It's a very one-dimensional kind of hatred, with no acknowledgement that they love or have loved a lot of the same people. This could be a really complex relationship, but they keep going back to that one note. The jealousy is kind of in some of the subtext, like Hook's position in the alternate universe created by Rumple, but it doesn't seem to have directly motivated any of Rumple's more extreme actions.

Milah definitely seems to have turned to Hook because he was the anti-Rumple -- to escape the cowardly husband who was afraid to leave their village, she ran off with the courageous pirate who offered to show her the world. From there, once they decided that Bae was a Lost Boy in Neverland, it was inevitable that Bae and Hook would end up getting to know each other. We don't know quite how that relationship worked since they didn't bother to show it (grrr), but it does seem from the way Neal acted toward Hook that there was some trust, and Bae knew he could count on Hook. Again, that might be kind of an anti-Rumple, where Hook was neither the cowardly and kind of useless father nor the power-hungry Dark One. With Belle, it may have just been a case of "we need something to do with these characters, so let's stick them together," but within the story, that makes the third point that creates a pattern. I think there it was the shared history, that the best shoulder to cry/lean on after the betrayal by Rumple was someone else who'd also been betrayed by Rumple. If you want a sympathetic ear to rant and rave about Rumple to, Hook's your man, and Hook was also still stinging from betrayal by Rumple. I'm still disappointed that they didn't work with that, focusing instead more on making Rumple jealous of Will rather than freaking out about wife #2 suddenly hanging out with the man who "stole" wife #1, which could have built toward Rumple hijacking the sacrifice in season 5. That was played as him just wanting power rather than anything personal. Meanwhile, we never got any sense of reaction from Belle about what Rumple did to Hook. She seemed more irked that Rumple had become the Dark One again, with nothing about what that had done to her friend.

[Camera One]

3 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

I don't dig the Charming/Arthur bromance from 5A.  It only existed because A&E thought it was a "cool idea". Its only purpose in the plot was to fool the audience into thinking he had sided with Arthur in 5x04 before the reveal that he and Snow were working together. It just made Charming look kind of stupid. On the flip side, Hook/Arthur was great and subtly tied up a couple loose plot threads.

Bringing this interesting thought over from that unpopular thread, since it's nice to discuss other relationships in this thread.  

I agree that the Charming/Arthur bromance wasn't great.  Parallels might be drawn between both men's humble beginnings and their insecurities over being a ruler, but none of these basics were developed and it's difficult to do actual character parallel and development adequately in a single one-and-done.  In terms of mindset, Charming and Arthur didn't have that much in common.

Charming verbalized insecurities that could have been believable, but as usual, they were brought up out of the blue and "resolved" by the end of the episode, even though they weren't actually resolved since Arthur was playing Charming like a violin the entire time (I think the Writers intended for Arthur to truly like Charming or whatever, but I couldn't buy it).  It's not like getting the ultimately useless mushroom was Charming's biggest accomplishment of all time outside of breaking the sleeping curse.  

Hook/Arthur were under different circumstances.  Arthur had room for growth by that point, and Hook used to be a grey villain, so he could be more of a relatable mentor in that sense, and working with Arthur instead of seeking revenge also provided a new development for Hook himself.  I can't say I loved it, but it was a more organic pairing.  They also had an important job to do with a time crunch, whereas Arthur and Charming went on a filler "adventure".

Edited August 29, 2016 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

I agree that the Charming/Arthur bromance wasn't great.  Parallels might be drawn between both men's humble beginnings and their insecurities over being a ruler, but none of these basics were developed and it's difficult to do actual character parallel and development adequately in a single one-and-done.  In terms of mindset, Charming and Arthur didn't have that much in common.

The bromance only existed because of the parallel. A&E saw they both had humble beginnings and their "genius" brainstorming did the rest. The pairing is obvious for the sake of being obvious and does not fit into the story organically. It was like a point on a checklist for if the show ever did Camelot. The Voicemail Toadstool was a contrived Macguffin that had to exist for the pairing to even come together, which spells "forced" right off the bat.

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Charming verbalized insecurities that could have been believable, but as usual, they were brought up out of the blue and "resolved" by the end of the episode, even though they weren't actually resolved since Arthur was playing Charming like a violin the entire time (I think the Writers intended for Arthur to truly like Charming or whatever, but I couldn't buy it).  It's not like getting the ultimately useless mushroom was Charming's biggest accomplishment of all time outside of breaking the sleeping curse.  

This is why I don't like Charming centrics. They're always the same. Charming has insecurities, another character teaches him to be brave, and whatever problem he was having remains irrelevant for the rest of the arc. His characterization is very one note and abrupt. He's not allowed to have any emotion outside of his designated centric, and when he does get that brief window, his growth comes from guest characters. (As opposed to important people in his life, like Snow or Emma.) Because of this, I find him largely to be bland. He's just not relevant any more.

Edited August 29, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

4 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

The Voicemail Toadstool was a contrived Macguffin that had to exist for the pairing to even come together, which spells "forced" right off the bat.

And then it ended up having very little to do with the plot. The only purpose it served was to demonstrate in the present that Arthur was crooked. Their contact with Merlin was ultimately useless and meaningless. It just set up one of those "ooh" moments that seemed like a cliffhanger, but then that information ended up not mattering. Even the knowledge that Arthur was bad didn't make much difference, aside from setting up him trying to kill Hook and Emma having to stop that, but that could have been switched for any other peril for Hook. By the time Hades killed Arthur, they had their memories back, so it didn't matter there.

I doubt they meant this, since it's something the show doesn't seem to acknowledge, but there is something David and Arthur had in common: they were both concerned with being seen as heroes. Arthur was so hung up on restoring the sword that he didn't bother actually being a good king. For him, it seemed to be all about the trappings of looking like a good king. Meanwhile, David's (and Henry's and Belle's and Robin's) version of wanting to be a hero is all about wanting to be seen as a hero. It's not so much about doing the right thing as it is about getting the glory that comes with it and being recognized and rewarded. At least, that's what I got out of the Arthur "bromance" episode.

On another relationship note, going back to the discussion about the relationship between Hook and Rumple, I was thinking: does the fact that they were both Dark Ones now mean that there's some Hook in Rumple and some Rumple in Hook? Both Emma and Hook seemed to have access to or awareness of previous Dark Ones, and they had a Head Rumple. When Rumple took the Darkness back into himself, did it come with bits of Emma and Hook? He might not have all their memories, but he might have memories of the time they spent as Dark Ones, though I guess there's the possibility that the Darkness was altered by being sucked out and put in the sword first, so Rumple got pure Darkness rather than a bunch of Dark Ones. Meanwhile, do Hook and Emma retain the knowledge and memories they had as Dark Ones that came from previous Dark Ones? Having a bit of each other in their heads could make things really interesting for Hook and Rumple, in particular. Not that I expect them to do anything with this, since wasted potential is practically the battle cry of this show, and they didn't even bring up the possibility in 5B. But, wow, what potential there could be with that, the two mortal enemies who also have that strange connection, and you know that Robert and Colin could play the hell out of it.

[Rumsy4]

7 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

I doubt they meant this, since it's something the show doesn't seem to acknowledge, but there is something David and Arthur had in common: they were both concerned with being seen as heroes. Arthur was so hung up on restoring the sword that he didn't bother actually being a good king. For him, it seemed to be all about the trappings of looking like a good king. Meanwhile, David's (and Henry's and Belle's and Robin's) version of wanting to be a hero is all about wanting to be seen as a hero. It's not so much about doing the right thing as it is about getting the glory that comes with it and being recognized and rewarded. At least, that's what I got out of the Arthur "bromance" episode.

That episode definitely made Charming look a little shallow, especially as he was really restless about taking care of Do-over while the womenfolk looked for solutions to the Merlin problem. But then, he tried to make up for it by teaming up with Snow to take down Arthur. Except he revealed a lot more than was needed to Arthur in the process and ended up being sanded. Sigh ...

[Dianthus]

Again, going back to the Hook/Rumple convo, given that Rumple is the Dark One, I don't know that he really needs a good reason to hate Hook by this point. It's simply reflexive.

[KingOfHearts]

I'm pretty done with the Hook/Rumple rivalry. Those two characters are so irrelevant to each other at this point that it's not even funny. They're off with their own respective new love interests. Hook has enough reason to hate Rumple as much as everyone else by now. The storylines that connect them is getting tired and it really shows in Rumple's case. He's a worn out character with nothing better to do. Hook has more opportunities to cover new ground I think, but it's not with the crocodile, or Milah, or Bae.

[KAOS Agent]

I think almost all of the relationships of this show have been played out. The only interesting ones left are the ones the writers refuse to touch. Or when they do touch them they resolve it with a quick hug rather than actually having real conflict and difficulty in healing the rift. They've also taken a really cavalier attitude towards some relationships and that makes characters look like assholes because the writers don't seem to understand the implications of the story to the characters' relationships. Poor Snowing get thrown under the bus so often in such a casual way. For example, they constantly throw their baby at Emma to raise every time some world ending event is coming and kind of give up the fight. What was up with the 5A ending where Dark!Emma was the only one actually willing to fight to save everyone while Snowing were all nah let's have dinner at Granny's and expected Emma to take Snowflake. What kind of parents are these people? The freaking Dark One was braver and more heroic than them. Then they both wander into the Underworld with no real timetable for return and start guilting Emma for their poor parenting choices in leaving the baby. 

Or remember when David was all upset about being relegated to watching his son instead of being on an adventure? Ostensibly, it was to help Emma, but he wasn't too cut up about losing the Mushroom of Pointlessness and was all excited about being a hero. What's the Snowing/Baby Snowflake relationship going to be in 10-15 years when daddy is more interested in chasing glory than caring for his child? The way things have been written, these people only want to be parents when it suits them. How can you take seriously any parental advice these two give to Emma? They suck at the parenting thing. They even had the gall to tell Emma that she wasn't grieving correctly. I get that they were supposedly worried she was bent on revenge (an inaccurate assessment of Emma's frame of mind, which displays even further their lack of understanding of Emma), but this is Snow "I can't live without David so I'll risk my life and my unborn child and if the heart splitting fails and we die, I'm cool with that" White. She doesn't have a leg to stand on telling Emma to move on and deal with Hook's death when she herself was suicidal at losing her husband. 

The thing that gets me is that this impression is not intentional by the writers. They think everything is going swimmingly in the Charming family. Everything on the show is so plot oriented that they fail to view how the events would affect the relationship between the characters. It's maddening.