Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard

[mjgchick]

The show really tricked me into thinking Belle loved herself but she truly don't. She came back to him because he sent her away? I wish the writers would think of Belle's character when they do these heel face turns when it comes to Rumple. He's whatever but Belle's character just gives me Stockholm syndrome turnt up. I get it that Beauty and The Beast is based on it but damn give the girl a brain, a backbone and a Love myself moment where it sticks.

 

If Rumple comes back from The Underworld and is still trash then I give up. The show wants to make Robert happy by making him the Dark One but they also want to make the 10 RBers happy and keep Emilie employed.

 

 

Other than that, I like seeing Hook's determination in the early half and Emma's determination in the latter half.

I liked that about the storyline also. Another thing I liked was that at least we got to see them talk (or yell.) their insecurities. I just wished the writers didn't put plot above the characters because like you said they choose to make Hook be a meanie so when he sacrifices everything it could mean much more. I mean I still felt bad for the characters but I just roll my eyes at Hook. He was more Mean Girls than Dark Hook to me.

Edited December 10, 2015 by mjgchick

[DigitalCount]

"You lied to me!" *smooching* *sexing*

 

That really says it all about Rumbelle. Between this and Henry/Violet, I really wonder if one of the writers got turned down for a date back in high school, and this is some sort of "proof" to them that girls like bad boys.

[KingOfHearts]

 

 

"You lied to me!" *smooching* *sexing*

That really says it all about Rumbelle.

Yeah, I'm really in the "Belle loves a bad boy" boat now. It's not even crack canon any more. She fell in love with Rumple while he was full on sparkles and coming home with bloody aprons. Her experience as Lacey didn't irk her in the slightest. Her break-up with him in 4x11 was only because she wasn't his top priority. When he went hero, she became completely disinterested. But when he lied again, she marched right into his arms. Disney!Belle would be repulsed.

 

The only way I could ship Rumpbelle is if I knew full well it was dysfunctional and abusive, yet liked it anyway. That angle would be fascinating, but A&E label the relationship as passionate, long-suffering and altruistic. Call it what it is and stop lying to the audience - maybe then viewers would come to appreciate it more.

Edited December 10, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

I've been trying to rationalize Belle's departure and return as a way of covering for maternity leave, with her being out for the battle with the Darkness keeping her from being part of the gang going to the Underworld, and it still doesn't work because her being on the scene for the big moment rather than on her way out of town wouldn't have revealed Rumple's deception.

 

Oddly, what Rumple's doing with her now is what I thought he should have done at their wedding -- faking no longer being the Dark One. When she married him, she thought he'd truly given up on power and Darkness and all that, so theoretically, their wedding kiss should have been a True Love's Kiss that saved him from the Darkness. Since he doesn't sparkle in this world, how would she have known the difference? He could have faked the limp and showed no sign of having magic in front of her, and that would have really amped up the betrayal when she found out what he was up to. The wedding kiss was already a sign that he wasn't willing to give up the darkness because he still didn't consider it a "curse" that he wanted to get out of.

 

So now he's playing reformed, when he's even worse, and Hook even did him the favor of healing his leg so he doesn't have to fake the limp. I really don't see how they can sustain this relationship as romantic after this. She can't believe he has a good heart when he did all this while having a supposedly pure hero heart and no darkness in him. He's lying to her (again). Once she finds out, she really must kick his ass to the curb for good or she loses all appearance of integrity.

[mjgchick]

They should give Belle a heel turn and have her just say "Fuck it." I love this man no matter whose limbs, hearts and magic he tries to destroy." Let her be evil with him. Tess still gives me PTSD but maybe Emilie playing Belle might be better? lol I'll be extremely sad if Belle ever turns bad but at this point I don't see her as the beloved Disney version. She should just do it and let her and Rumple be the final villains Emma has to destroy. Anythings better than doormat Belle.

[Amerilla]

We always have to keep in mind that the way WE see these characters and the way the writers see these characters are oceans apart. For example, I would almost guarantee if you asked A&E or any of the writers if Belle is fundamentally attracted to Rumpel's bad side and his bad side only, they would say no.

 

There's long been a disconnect between her actions in the relationship and the way she's portrayed outside. Belle does not suffer from low self-esteem. She's got friends and allies, she walks tall, she dresses and speaks like someone who knows she attractive and intelligent, she tries to figure things out (rather than just plunging in headfirst like most of her peers), she's generally able to get herself out of scrapes. She doesn't seem to define herself purely by her connection to Rumpel - perhaps in part because, with the exception of "Skin Deep," they haven't ever been together for more than a couple weeks at a time between breakups and crises - and given how fast she turned to Will, she doesn't see herself as someone who can't be in any other relationship. But, purely to drive Rumpel's story forward, they have her do things in their relationship that simply make no sense.

 

Here, you have her announcing she needs time to think, which is supposed to be this big, dramatic thing that crushes his dreams of reconciliation and turns him back to the Dark Side...but it falls completely flat, because they weren't shown as being together or on the verge reconciling anyway. Then her turning around and coming back is supposed to be this big, dramatic thing because in the 15 minutes she was away, he fell off the wagon and is now an even darker Dark One than he was before, and can't tell her...but again, since they essentially have no relationship at this point, the pathos of it is completely lost. Just another day in Rumbelle Land, only this time with obvious

impregnanting

sex. 

 

ETA: As with so many issues with TS;TW, re-ordering events could help. What if, for example, Belle met Rumpel at the well and got so caught up in the moment that she took him home and shagged him, AND THEN in cold light of post-sex realized she needed more time.

That order builds on the cautious re-awakening of feelings after the events of "Bear/Bow," it's very human for people who have broken up but still love each other to go back and forth between desire and desire for space, and it preys more strongly on Rumpel's fears that he can't be loved, thus giving him more motivation to turn back to darkness. The rest of the events - Belle leaving, Rumpel going dark, Belle coming back, Rumpel being blackmailed - could have gone just the same.

 

When she married him, she thought he'd truly given up on power and Darkness and all that, so theoretically, their wedding kiss should have been a True Love's Kiss that saved him from the Darkness.

 

Putting aside that they're clearly keeping a successful TLK for their series finale moment, their wedding kiss is irrelevant. Not every kiss between True Loves is a True Love's Kiss. (Charming intended to wake Snow, Snow intended to wake Charming, Belle intended to break the Dark One curse, Emma had to be wishing for Henry to be alive, etc.) Why would Belle be trying to break a curse when that hadn't been an issue for her since the start of S2? Her argument to Rumpel through most of their interactions in S2 and S3 were that he could choose his own path, that he didn't have to give in to his darker impulses. The whole giving-Belle-the-dagger-f**kery was just a pointless setup for DRAMA in S4. It was more true to her character that she gave it to him so he could control himself - no fuss, no muss, no big-ass purse to haul around.   

Edited December 10, 2015 by Amerilla

[Rumsy4]

Once she finds out, she really must kick his ass to the curb for good or she loses all appearance of integrity.

 

Belle has lost all credibility at this point, though. Even if she kicks his ass to the curb after discovering the deception, something else will make her take him back. Rumbelle is here to stay, unless either Belle dies (not happening), or Rumple dies for good (which in this Show...).

 

ETA: As with so many issues with TS;TW, re-ordering events could help. What if, for example, Belle met Rumpel at the well and got so caught up in the moment that she took him home and shagged him, AND THEN in cold light of post-sex realized she needed more time.

 

This is exactly what I was thinking as well. They should have let it play out this way instead of making Belle a double-dyed idiot. The writers simple don't consider her as a character. She is just a prop for Rumple.

Edited December 10, 2015 by Rumsy4

[YaddaYadda]

I have a lot of questions moving forward about where Belle thinks Rumple has gone. Did he tell her he was going to the Underworld, did he lie to her, or did he ambien the hell out of her?

 

Henry needs to keep his big nose out of grown-up business. Like seriously. What is this any concern of his?

Edited December 10, 2015 by YaddaYadda

[Shanna Marie]

Putting aside that they're clearly keeping a successful TLK for their series finale moment, their wedding kiss is irrelevant. Not every kiss between True Loves is a True Love's Kiss.

Where I was going with that was that Belle knew/believed he cut off the first TLK because he needed his powers to find his son and because power was his weakness. She firmly believed that someday he'd be ready to give up power, and then a TLK would save him and he could be the man she believed he could be. So after he sacrificed himself to save everyone else (so she believed) and chose to save his son over having control over himself and his power, she would have had reason to think that maybe this time, at their wedding, after they'd been through so much and were finally reunited, he was over all his issues, and their wedding kiss would be the True Love's Kiss that would save him. If I were in her shoes, I'd be a bit disappointed if the wedding kiss hadn't been a TLK because I'd have been expecting it to be.

 

I think a big part of the problem with the way their relationship is written is that his character and the relationship are in silos that don't connect. So in his character silo, he's the fearful to the point of cowardice man who craves power to overcome his fear and who will always put power ahead of everything else, every time. He'll try to have it all -- love and power and family -- but when it all comes down to it, he'll choose power every time, and he's willing to destroy anything and everything else to have it, and then will use that power to try to force love to happen or stay. But in the relationship silo, they think they're writing the Beauty and the Beast movie, where Belle is the brainy, spirited girl who's willing to look past the fearsome exterior to see the good heart inside the beast and the beast learns to love well enough that he puts her ahead of his own wishes, and it's the combination of their love that saves him from the curse and turns him back into a prince. The problem is that these two things are mutually exclusive. When Rumple always chooses power and will gladly hurt other people, including Belle, to get it, there is no good heart inside the beast for her to love, so she just looks stupid. Movie Belle would have ditched Rumple long ago. He's worse than Gaston.

[Rumsy4]

He probably left a note to Belle saying: I'm off to Hell to help Emma rescue my mortal enemy. Brb.

Belle: He's so unselfish! *hearteyes*

[mjgchick]

I can so see him writing that and her thinking "omg he loves me enough to not have me go to hell with him."

 

What happened to my Disney Belle? :(

[KingOfHearts]

 

I can so see him writing that and her thinking "omg he loves me enough to not have me go to hell with him."

If she had to go she'd probably think, "Great. He finally lets me see the world, and it's hell."

 

 

What happened to my Disney Belle? :(

Disney!Belle was smart and independent. This Belle is too stupid to live.

Edited December 11, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Faemonic]

You know what? I really think that 511 could have cut out the entire gurney scene (stop the violins! violins is bad!) and kept this dialogue, where Emma tells her parents not to follow her to the Underworld, and Regina volunteers better than "It could work" (no, Regina, you're supposed to be the smart and snarky one, please try to talk her out of this), and Henry volunteers to save Hook, and Robin says a useful segue line.

 

As it stands, I can't even with both of Henry's mothers deciding to take him along.

 

In other news, people who ship Golden Hook (RumPirate?) harder than I do then rewatched Hook's death scene and broke it down to the nano-second, and reported their findings: the moment before Hook collapses, Hook raises an arm like he's pointing at somebody behind Emma and says something like, "Arghrr, um..." And people interpreted that like he was reaching out for Rumple and about to say Rumple's name. I wonder if he was really about to say, "Rumplestiltskin is the new combination Dark One, shady coward demon!" But I'm thinking it is really most likely Colin ad-libbing dying noises.

 

The midseason finale was so Buffy that it needed a Sarah McLachlan song. Who's the Sarah McLachlan of this generation? Adele? Taylor Swift? Emo Taylor Swift? Ooh...Christina Perry!

[KingOfHearts]

 

As it stands, I can't even with both of Henry's mothers deciding to take him along.

I don't even accept the cut dialogue. "I hopped on a bus to Boston on my own!" Yes, Boston... not the freaking Underworld. "I'm the Author!" How does writing make it any safer? "I'll just find another way if you don't take me!" No, kid - you won't. Rumple is going with them and he's the only one who's been there and back.

 

If the writers really wanted to bring Henry along, why not force the Nevengers to go to the Underworld instead of giving them the choice? Why do Snowing keep abandoning their baby to go on dangerous missions? Why are Rumple and Robin going? Regina, I could see. But do we really need everyone to save Hook? I wish the writers would write clever circumstances to get what they want instead of giving characters the idiot ball.

Edited December 11, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[snarkybelle]

I don't even accept the cut dialogue. "I hopped on a bus to Boston on my own!" Yes, Boston... not the freaking Underworld. "I'm the Author!" How does writing make it any safer? "I'll just find another way if you don't take me!" No, kid - you won't. Rumple is going with them and he's the only one who's been there and back.

 

Henry's the author and they still haven't figured out that anything connected with Merlin is bad news.  I wouldn't be so proud of the "author" title if I were him.  Little Green Bean and Neal "the do over" baby may have issues with their parents in the far future when they hear from Henry's stories that they were left behind to go on some adventure to rescue Uncle Killian.  This will just be the start of more relationship issues to come.  But I understand why they won't let Emma go alone.  I mean she did sacrifice herself for them.  It's the least they can do especially after the way they've treated her.  Hopefully the writers will address the dysfunctional relationships with some heartfelt conversations.  

[mjgchick]

Yeah Henry should've stayed behind and and meet up with Granny and Co. Just because he's a teenager doesn't make it ok that he's going into dangerous territories. Henry is 13 not even 16 yet. Stop acting like he's an adult. WTF the authors going to do in the Underworld? Write in Hades diary to piss him off?

Edited December 11, 2015 by mjgchick

[Shanna Marie]

Little Green Bean and Neal "the do over" baby may have issues with their parents in the far future when they hear from Henry's stories that they were left behind to go on some adventure to rescue Uncle Killian.

I'm worried about Green Bean, since those first few weeks of bonding with parents is critical to an infant's emotional well-being. Without it, all kinds of attachment and trust issues can come up (which would explain a lot of Emma's walls). At least Snowflake has had a few months with his parents, and there was a mention that Snow was breastfeeding. But with Green Bean, within a day of her birth her mom was sent over the rainbow to Oz and her dad headed off into the Underworld. If she bonds and attaches with anyone, it'll be Blue or whichever fairy is looking after her, and her actual father and the woman who'll likely raise her will be total strangers.

 

Robin joining the Underworld adventure strikes me as one of those things the writers do because of something they want, not because it makes sense for the character. If you ignore the fact that these are characters in a TV show, there's no good reason for Robin to go (just as there wasn't much reason for him and Roland to go to Camelot). He and Hook aren't close. He doesn't owe Hook much of anything (though I guess he does owe Emma his life). He has a young child who's lost one parent already and a day-old newborn whose mother won't be part of her life. But since he's a character on a TV show and was just promoted to regular, they have to bring him along for him to have something to do, and Regina needs her boyfriend around so they can have some relationship scenes (maybe -- it's not like they care to do much with them other than have them kiss).

 

WTF the authors going to do in the Underworld? Write in Hades diary to piss him off?

As I mentioned in another thread, it's not as though Henry has even done any writing. We saw no sign of him doing anything to record the events in Camelot. Is he going to do anything to chronicle the trip to the Underworld? He gave up the magic pen, so it's not as though he has any special powers. It would be a lot easier to buy his eagerness to go if his entire relationship with Hook hadn't taken place in Offscreenville. If we'd seen them bonding, if we knew Henry was looking forward to them all living together, it would work better.

 

Though I guess if they showed that Emma was the Worst Evil Ever for not asking for help, they couldn't exactly have everyone say they were busy and had other responsibilities when Emma did come to them for help rather than just dragging Rumple off and making him open a portal without her saying anything to them.

[mjgchick]

Emma coming to them is the show saying "Now Emma's learned her lesson to let others help her." RME.

[Camera One]

They need Henry in their Underworld in case they need another Tear of Second love.  They need Snow, Charming and Robin to be duped, and maybe used as a hostage.

[Dianthus]

I posted this in another thread, but I think it pertains here, too. In a crack video for 5.11, there's a caption over Henry's head in a reaction pic near the end that says: Dad, come back. I know it's not canon or anything, but I think Henry has imprinted on Hook as a father figure, to some extent. They had significant on-screen interaction in the AU and there was Operation Light Swan. Even if we haven't seen a lot of his interactions with Hook, we haven't really seen any with Robin. Was Henry even there to react Robin's near death in Camelot? 

What if Henry's "no " in s4 didn't mean what we think it means? What if he was concerned with his own relationship to the man? I don't think we should read too much into the "filthy pirate" comment, cuz that was during the Shattered Sight spell. 

[RadioGirl27]

If the (supposed) great relationship Hook and Henry have ("I had a great teacher, you", Operation Light Swan) had been developed on screen, Henry wanting to go and her mothers (especially Emma) leting him go would have made way more sense. But, because we haven't seen those interactions between the two of them on screen, the only thing left is "why are they taking a kid the the Underworld?" and "Regina and Emma are terrible mothers for taking their son to the Underworld".

[YaddaYadda]

I think I've posted this before in this thread. I think everyone on here knows how little patience I have for Henry, but there's one thing they never ever talk about when it comes to Henry, and that is that he lost a lot too.

 

The emphasis is put on Emma's walls, and her losses. The thing is, her losses have also been Henry's losses.

 

• Graham - Emma knew him for barely a month before he died, but Henry knew him for his whole life. Graham was a huge part of Henry's life
• Walsh - He was part of Henry's life for like 8 months. He helped him do his homework, helped him build a volcano. We can say whatever we want about Walsh, the fact remains that he seemed to be a huge part of Henry's life.
• Neal - Neal was his father. And he had to mourn him 3 times. The st was when Emma lied to him about who his father was. The second was when he was shot and fell through the portal, and the 3rd was when he really died. And that last time, Henry didn't even remember him, or know who he was.

 

I've always interpreted Henry's reluctance as him being overly cautious because of his own losses. There was one line from David in 4x02 about how Henry is like his mothers and good at putting up walls.

 

I thought the show did a good job at showing his shock at Hook's death in the AU, at showing that he and Hook have gotten a lot closer, and once more at showing his shock at Hook's actual death in 5x11.

 

Whether he sees Hook as a father/father figure is a whole another ball game, but they're at the very least friends.

 

Regarding Robin, I always wonder if Robin hugging, or putting an arm around Henry in comforting gestures is a Sean thing, or a scene direction. I'm really more inclined to think that it's Sean doing it though. And if that's the case, then good for him.

[mjgchick]

It's not like we've never seen Hook and Henry hanging out or the show not tell us this. It's not out of no where at least. I can say Hook and Henry cares for each other. I haven't seen that with Robin and Henry. So far it feels like Henry just wanted Operation Dumb Ass to work for Regina not because he's hung out with Robin and it still feels that way. Henrys hung out more with Cruella than Robin.

[YaddaYadda]

This is the problem with Once when it just keeps moving from crisis to crisis, the relationships are non existent.

 

I'm assuming that Robin is living with Regina, so that means he and Henry are interacting. And Robin was using Snowing's loft for Roland, and then to meet Zelena with the baby, so that indicates that the relationship is close enough that they're okay with him using their place.

 

And when David goes to confront Arthur in 5x08, Robin and Hook are his backups, so there is enough of a bond between them, and enough trust that they all have each others' backs.

 

And Hook and Regina, whatever they've shown us especially in present day, they remind me of the bickering siblings. 

 

I wish they'd let the relationships develop in an organic way, where you know, show me the reason David feels Hook can backslide into his old ways at any moment. Or Robin, and Henry just hanging out. I mean Henry seems to have a close enough relationship with Roland that he was trying to protect him when Granny's was lifted up by the twister.

 

I'll pass on Emma and her parents.

[Curio]

I'm assuming that Robin is living with Regina, so that means he and Henry are interacting.

It's sad that we can't even verify if this is true or not. Kind of like how we still don't even know where Hook has been living for the past year or two.

 

And Hook and Regina, whatever they've shown us especially in present day, they remind me of the bickering siblings.

It's too bad that the only recent scenes Hook and Regina have gotten to interact with each other in were 5x01, and before that, they barely said a word to each other ever since the beginning of Season 3. They didn't have a single one-on-one scene in Season 4. That's why I have such an issue with Regina getting forced into Hook's 5x11 flashback and why they chose her of all people to try and talk him down from the darkness. It's like bitch, please, suddenly you think you're the best person to talk him out of this? If it weren't for their bickering in 5x01, they would've gone nearly 40 episodes without having a significant conversation with each other. If the writers actually took the time to flesh out more relationships outside of the normal ones consistently, maybe their big emotional beats would seem more organic.

[Rumsy4]

If Charming had talked Hook out of it, how great would it have been? Charms could have reminded Hook of his brother, and told him to remember the kind of man he would want his brother to be. That would be a nice resolution to all the times Charming has doubted Hook's change of heart. Hook's flashback to him finding and killing his father could have still been there, but without the blatant shoehorning of Regina. The so called Hook/Charming bromance would then have actual support in canon as well. But sadly, the writers have stopped even nominally caring about the Charmings. 

[YaddaYadda]

I think David would have been great for that, especially after what Hook said to David about him being like his brother. But David is so damn wishy washy when it comes to Hook. I don't even know where he stands with him. Is he like that because Emma loves the guy, and this is his way to be overprotective without being overprotective? If that's the case, he needs to stop like yesterday. Even Snow isn't like that, and she met the guy in the EF.

 

I didn't take issues with Regina talking Hook down because I didn't think she really managed that, plus her dialogue was your run of the mill blatant Regina hypocrisy. She's the one who sent him after his father knowing that he wanted his revenge very badly. Ultimately, he's responsible for killing his father, and breaking up the only family his little brother had left, which is wrong on so many levels (though I really could care less that he killed his father. A woman's love is enough to turn him around, but his children's love is worth a big fat zero, so no thanks), she set him on this path.

 

If Regina can blame Rumple for everything that's gone wrong in her life, and turning her into a monster, I can damn well blame her for the part she played in this. I still would like to know how she knew who that man was. And was she planning on hiring Captain Hook to go to Wonderland this whole time?

 

I also don't understand why Hook and Regina's interaction doesn't exist. From a narrative stance, it makes no sense to me.

[Curio]

Or heck, how about Henry talking to Hook? Henry was basically like an emotionless robot in the winter finale, where did all his spunk go? Why couldn't we have gotten a scene where Henry goes off on his own to try and find Hook, and when he does find him, he just starts berating him for giving up on Operation Light Swan? While Henry yells at Hook for being a coward (Hook's trigger word) and choosing vengeance over Operation Light Swan, Nimue could appear out of nowhere and brand Henry. So instead of that awkward scene where Henry is standing in the middle of the street and Emma just watches Nimue walk through him, Henry running off on his own to try and talk to Hook gets him into trouble and he gets himself branded by Nimue.

 

Henry talking to Hook also could have given Hook the lightbulb moment where he compares him to Liam 2.0. That way, we still could have kept most of the flashback with Hook's father, just minus the shoehorned Regina appearance.

Edited December 12, 2015 by Curio

[Rumsy4]

Yes. Either Charming or Henry would have been good choices. In fact, why not both of them? It would show Hook caring for more than just Emma.  

Edited December 12, 2015 by Rumsy4

[mjgchick]

I for sure thought they'd have Henry at least try to talk Hook down because even with his crazy Hook doesn't seem like he'd harm a child physically (unless you count taking someone's singing voice as physical.) Hook would harm the child by murdering their parents tho.

[Camera One]

I don't see how David could have talked Hook down if Emma couldn't.  What would he have said?  Oh remember when you lost your brother?  Granted, I wasn't convinced how Regina bringing up Hook killing his father would have worked either.  Henry I could see more because he was a kid, though I'm a little tired of his inspirational speeches.  Given the flashback format, they needed *someone* to bring up that previously untold story of Hook murdering his father, so that also restricted the possibilities.  I suppose Henry could have read some of the previous unreleased editions of the Storybook and read about Hook killing his father, but that would just be awkward to bring up.  "Uh, I know you killed your father.  So don't do this.  Please.  Because."

Edited December 12, 2015 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

I don't think Regina's little speech did anything to talk Hook down. It was seeing Emma choking and realizing what he was becoming that flipped the switch. Regina brought back the whole "man you want to be" thing, but that wasn't novel in the episode, Emma had said it to him earlier, so it was more like it was hammered home by multiple people and then seeing the actual results of it (Emma choking) that brought him out. I don't think any of his relationships with anyone was strong enough to actually talk him down without Hook actually witnessing what he'd done. I also think that only seeing damage to Emma would have worked. If David or Robin were choking, I'm not sure Dark!Hook would have cared.

[Camera One]

Nimue messed up.  Serves her right.

 

Does anyone yearn for a Nimue/Merlin reunion and reconciliation in the future?  So romantic.

Edited December 12, 2015 by Camera One

[Curio]

Does anyone yearn for a Nimue/Merlin reunion and reconciliation in the future?  So romantic.

 

I'm amazed how much this relationship/storyline fizzled out. I thought we'd for sure get some kind of epic scene where Merlin would plead with Nimue and either help bring her back to the light or at least confront her and hash out their issues, but instead all we got was his anticlimactic death.

[mjgchick]

Merlin was so done with life. He didn't even have a convincing argument against Nimue. Also the scenes where he was telling Emma "you'll end up killing me either way" and when Hook actually killed him was like he was ready to die. Nimue loved him but clearly it wasn't enough. lmao

[Shanna Marie]

If Regina was going to be able to talk Hook down, the thing that seems more likely to work would have been what he said to her about revenge in season two, reminding him of how empty he said revenge was back when he thought he'd killed Rumple. But not only do they not have the current relationship that would suggest she could reach him, the flashback didn't really give her any info. Unless I've forgotten, all she knew was that she sent him to kill his father, and he did. Where did she get all the "man you want to be" stuff? Did she by pure accident stumble onto something that clicked with him? Or was there some serious #ItHappenedOffscreen stuff going on, where we learned that she was watching him through her mirror the whole time and knew everything that happened?

 

Where I think David might have worked would have been the fact that someone who previously hadn't shown a lot of faith in him and who had questioned him so often in the past was standing up for him and showing faith. What sent Hook over the edge was Emma not believing in him (reinforcing the fact that he didn't believe in himself). David could have referenced things that "Prince Charles" said to him about what he'd do for the woman he loved, and could have admitted that he doubted him and shouldn't have. Other people showing faith in him might have reached him enough to cut through the Nimue fog and take control. But then we wouldn't have been able to have that kind of flashback.

 

Henry might have worked, too, since I think Henry (via memories of Bae) had a lot to do with Hook turning his ship around way back in season two, and Hook was willing to give up Emma for Henry's sake so that he'd have a chance to be part of an intact family with his father. So Henry counts as someone Hook loves but who hadn't betrayed him -- probably the next best thing to Emma for love and without the sense that she did something awful to him and then didn't believe in him.

 

It's hard to tell exactly how Henry feels about Hook because #ItHappenedOffscreen. There was all the babysitting in season three, and the Captain Cobra Campout in which Hook told Henry about his father as a kid before Henry got his memories back. Henry gave him the storybook to go talk to Emma at the end of the season. But then there was the "I'm not okay with this but I want you to be happy" response to Emma asking Hook out. And then the offscreen sailing lessons, followed by the "I had a great teacher" in the AU. There was the AU jailbreak teamup, followed by the Storybrooke jailbreak attempt teamup, and then some working together to help Emma and teasing about Violet, plus the offscreen Operation Light Swan house hunting. So there's some kind of relationship there, but since 90 percent of it was only implied and never shown, we have no idea what kind of relationship they really have. We don't know if Henry likes Hook, how much he likes him, whether he thinks of him as like a dad or more like an uncle or big brother, or just as a friend, not as a family member. We don't know if Henry was excited about the idea of having a while-picket-fence home together with Emma and Hook. We don't even know how much Henry knows about Hook's history with his family. So it's hard to feel much of anything when we watch Henry watch Hook die -- is he sad about Hook, is he sad about what this means to Emma, is he just shocked and horrified because that would be awful to watch anyone go through?

 

That's the problem with these writers and their reluctance to write "boring" ordinary relationship scenes. If you don't establish what the relationships are when things are normal, then the big, dramatic scenes in a crisis have less resonance. If they'd left out all the Merida nonsense and showed at least one scene of Henry and Hook looking at real estate listings together, it would have added so much more impact in the climax of the arc.

[Camera One]

Where I think David might have worked would have been the fact that someone who previously hadn't shown a lot of faith in him and who had questioned him so often in the past was standing up for him and showing faith. What sent Hook over the edge was Emma not believing in him (reinforcing the fact that he didn't believe in himself). David could have referenced things that "Prince Charles" said to him about what he'd do for the woman he loved, and could have admitted that he doubted him and shouldn't have. Other people showing faith in him might have reached him enough to cut through the Nimue fog and take control.

 

I don't remember Hook ever seeking validation from people in Storybrooke other than Emma or maybe Henry.  I doubt Hook, especially the Dark version, could care less if David suddenly expressed that he had faith in him.  

Edited December 12, 2015 by Camera One

[Curio]

That's the problem with these writers and their reluctance to write "boring" ordinary relationship scenes. If you don't establish what the relationships are when things are normal, then the big, dramatic scenes in a crisis have less resonance. If they'd left out all the Merida nonsense and showed at least one scene of Henry and Hook looking at real estate listings together, it would have added so much more impact in the climax of the arc.

 

Showing a flashback of Hook and Henry first coming up with the idea for Operation Light Swan in "Swan Song" would have been a nice contrast to the Dark One drama that was going on. In fact, that could have made a good segue into Hook's father flashback because they could have tapped into Hook's fear of becoming just like his father and how he doesn't want to do the same thing with Henry. If they're looking at houses together, obviously Henry is starting to accept the possibility of Hook taking on a fatherly role in his life, and that could have been one of the big parallels in the episode to tie together the flashbacks to the present day.

[Rumsy4]

I'm amazed how much this relationship/storyline fizzled out. I thought we'd for sure get some kind of epic scene where Merlin would plead with Nimue and either help bring her back to the light or at least confront her and hash out their issues, but instead all we got was his anticlimactic death.

 

Yup. The Lancelot/Guinevere romance was a disappointment as well. This again plays into where the writers are good at set-up but terrible at follow-through.

[YaddaYadda]

Yup. The Lancelot/Guinevere romance was a disappointment as well. This again plays into where the writers are good at set-up but terrible at follow-through.

Here's the thing though, if someone isn't familiar with the triangle of doom, then someone watching 5x04 wouldn't even understood where the whole Lancelot/Guinevere thing came from because there was no build up. Guinevere kissed Lancelot in a moment of weakness, she thought she was losing him, and that's the end of that. She showed no feelings towards him, he looked like he liked her, not that he was in love with her. 

 

The writers were counting on people knowing that debacle of a triangle, and Guinevere's choice. 

 

Arthur was also not a straight up asshole, so there's that as well. 

Edited December 13, 2015 by YaddaYadda

[KAOS Agent]

 

I'm amazed how much this relationship/storyline fizzled out. I thought we'd for sure get some kind of epic scene where Merlin would plead with Nimue and either help bring her back to the light or at least confront her and hash out their issues, but instead all we got was his anticlimactic death.

 

That whole thing was conceived only so that Hook could cast the Dark Curse without using Emma's heart. The only reason that romance got the audience even remotely invested was because Caroline Ford & Elliott Knight sold it so well. They didn't quite manage to make it epic, but I was sad that those two crazy kids couldn't be happy together. 

[KingOfHearts]

 

 

If Regina was going to be able to talk Hook down, the thing that seems more likely to work would have been what he said to her about revenge in season two, reminding him of how empty he said revenge was back when he thought he'd killed Rumple.

I definitely don't think Regina was a bad choice for coaxing Hook. They shared a few moments together when they were still villains, so Regina has some sort of lens into his darkness. Her relationship with him is probably the only one she has that is not intensely problematic. The flashbacks are really what kept the show from selling it. Besides the fact she sent him to kill his father, she posed no relevance. The connection was weak, much like 4x20 with Cora. Although in that episode, instead of "what kind of man you want to be" it was "only you are in the way of your happiness". 

 

What would have helped in the flashbacks was a scene where Regina found out about what went down. Like Shanna Marie said, maybe she watched it through a mirror. Or perhaps she was following Hook the whole time and appeared after he killed his father. Hook's anger at his father got more focus than the actual exposition needed to fuel the present. We don't see what happened to Liam 2.0 either.

Edited December 13, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

How about this?  We flashback to 3B, when Regina and Hook both awkwardly meet at a "I Killed My Father" support group led by Archie.  They spend a night together at Granny's, just talking.  About how their goals of revenge both led to them feeling that patricide was necessary. As the sun rose in Storybrooke, Regina and Hook made a pact that they do not speak of this, as they both bury momentos of their fathers along the beach.  For a moment, as they were blinded by the morning light, their minds melded as one and a connection of love and understanding flowed between them, but was instantly lost.  Only a moment of true darkness would this flicker emerge once more, a voice said in both their heads.  Fast-forward to the climatic scene of "Broken Heart".  The start of Captain Regina.

Edited December 13, 2015 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

I don't remember Hook ever seeking validation from people in Storybrooke other than Emma or maybe Henry.  I doubt Hook, especially the Dark version, could care less if David suddenly expressed that he had faith in him.

The way I was thinking of it, Hook went into this saying "I can't beat the darkness, I'd rather die," so it became something of a self-fulfilling prophecy. That prophecy was reinforced when Emma acted as though she didn't believe he could beat it once she turned him, and she reinforced it yet again with what she did to hide the truth from him in Storybrooke. So maybe if someone he didn't expect to have faith in him stepped up and said he did believe in him, the shock and surprise might have shaken up that self-fulfilling prophecy and made it past the blinders he put up about Emma's faith. So, if David had said something like, "Come on, where's the man who jumped through a time portal to follow my daughter, who gave up his ship to reunite my daughter to her family? You were willing to do all that, and now you're going to let us all die -- or worse? I don't believe it. You're better than that," it might have managed to reach whatever of the real Hook that was buried under the layers of Darkness.

[Faemonic]

Hey, you all know I've been hankering for some Hooked Queen, but this episode was like throwing darts at it while blindfolded. I wonder who wrote this...

 

Huh. I looked up who wrote Swan Song. This came straight from AK&EH. I do my best to be understanding about deadlines and executive notes, but I really expected so much better from them. Captain Hook and the Evil Queen should go together like flint and steel! But this was the best they could think up?

 

They could be such interesting characters together, and not necessarily together-together. Regina's a control freak whereas Hook's always falling through loopholes and improvising stuff. Hook's an introspective listener while Regina projects much more. They've both got that mix of formality and utterly unhinged rage. Regina has a very different relationship with Rumple than Hook does, and that might influence how they interact with each other. Surely their differing moral philosophies at a given time would warrant more mention! Instead, during Swan Song, whenever the so-called "Writer's Pet" character Regina came into the limelight, I would very quickly go from "Yes! Vitriolic foster siblings, united onscreen at last!" to "...Does she even go here? She doesn't even go here!"

[KAOS Agent]

I'm very confused about the message I'm supposed to get from Rumbelle. Is it supposed to be seen as toxic and abusive? Or am I supposed to see the power of love means forgiving endless deception and outright evil? Is Belle meant to be seen as confused or stupid or naive or completely enamored about being a hero who gets off on "saving" her husband? I don't get it. I'm also a little lost about how Belle sees the Dark One v Rumpel. She was so ready to completely write Dark Emma off as a lost cause because she's the same as Rumpel (ha!), but she fell in love with the Dark One and is never willing to fully write him off. How does that work exactly?

 

On Rumpel's part, when Lacey was running around getting turned on by Rumpel's evil, he never seemed to be at all upset that this wasn't Belle. He just went to work on being awful. Contrast that with Dark Hook & Dark Emma, both under the influence of terrible evil, ultimately choosing to sacrifice for love over power and Darkness. Dark Emma wanted her Hook back, not the Dark One who was running around wreaking havoc. Emma was willing to do anything to get him back. Why wasn't Rumpel working to do anything to get his Belle back? Doesn't that say something about how Rumpel sees Belle?

 

Prior to Dark Captain Swan demonstrating how love can overcome the Darkness, I was more willing to give Rumpel some leeway about having a demon riding him and influencing his decisions. Now I just don't think there's anything to root for. Rumpel had Belle cheerleading him and providing positive reinforcement. Then he got a free pass and a heroic turn and still he wouldn't change. What would it take to ever be sure that Rumpel wouldn't turn on a dime again in the future?

Edited December 14, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[Rumsy4]

Rumple has chosen the man he wants to be with open eyes, and he chose it after having tasted what having a clean heart felt like. He actively rejected being a decent human being, in favor of getting the Dark One power back (multiplied infinity). He pretty much made the same choice in the Storybook AU. I would say that he is irredeemable and Rumbelle is dead. But this is Once Upon a Time. I think Belle will constantly be breaking up and making up with Rumple until the end of the Show. It looks like they're writing in de Ravin's pregnancy. I'm afraid they're going to use Baelfire 2.0 (lbr, that's what he will be named) to redeem Rumple. Maybe Baelfire 2.0 will jump into a portal, and this time, Rumple will jump in after him. 

[YaddaYadda]

I'm afraid they're going to use Baelfire 2.0 (lbr, that's what he will be named) to redeem Rumple. Maybe Baelfire 2.0 will jump into a portal, and this time, Rumple will jump in after him.

 

 

The message from this show has been that the love of children (not the other way mind you) can redeem the worst people ever. 

 

I so hate the idea of pregnant Belle. She too needs to get her act together.

[Curio]

I can't help but think the writers still want us to root for Rumbelle, even though it's pretty clear at this point (even to a lot of Rumbelle fans, I gather) that the relationship has officially gone off the deep end. But Adam & Eddy keep using that damn quote about how "Rumple is a difficult man to love," and somehow, that makes everything he does until the series finale somewhat redeemable. Oh, did Rumple murder an entire village? Well, he warned us he's a difficult man to love! Give him a chance. Oh, was Rumple totally okay with letting Emma die so he can become a Dark One? Twice? He's a difficult man to love! There's always hope! Belle even said it's easier to hate a Dark One than to love one! Wait, what's an event horizon?

[KingOfHearts]

They keep telling Rumpbelle shippers to "have hope", which feels so misleading. Even if they get back together and don't break up again, that's not satisfying or earned. We've been all over the map in Rumple's mind, and a true redemption would be as contrived as his hero shtick in 5A. Rumpbelle shippers get baited and switched all the time. It's not relationship angst... it's insanity.