Philizabeth, aka Мишежда

[sistermagpie]

I thought we could use a thread that was about Philip and Elizabeth as a couple. Either as a team or as a compare as contrast.

 

Does Elizabeth know more about Philip's background than we do? She knew about Irina--did he tell her right before he met her again, or before?

 

 

[PinkRibbons]

Words cannot stress how much I love that Russian portmanteau. My parents will find it bizarre but I think it's a thing of beauty ("Mishezhda").

 

I remember thinking very early on that Philip, with his looser look at Centre protocol, would have been more open with Elizabeth about his previous life even before the show began. I even suspected that he would have tried to share with Elizabeth in attempts to win some genuine affection from her over the years. At this point however I don't know...he is just so damn deep and hard to figure out. I wonder if the writers always meant him to be that way or if it evolved naturally over the years?

[Umbelina]

Wasn't she in love with someone else?  Their relationship seemed to be simply spy partners, but began to change into more while we watched in season one.

[sistermagpie]

Words cannot stress how much I love that Russian portmanteau. My parents will find it bizarre but I think it's a thing of beauty ("Mishezhda").

 

 

Hurray! I love, btw, the way everyone tends to think of even their names in different forms where Elizabeth gets her whole name and Philip gets a shorter form.

 

I remember thinking very early on that Philip, with his looser look at Centre protocol, would have been more open with Elizabeth about his previous life even before the show began. I even suspected that he would have tried to share with Elizabeth in attempts to win some genuine affection from her over the years. At this point however I don't know...he is just so damn deep and hard to figure out. I wonder if the writers always meant him to be that way or if it evolved naturally over the years?

 

 

This mirrors my thoughts on it exactly. I started out assuming that Philip had dropped some things openly over the years assuming that this was natural, that the two of them *should* share things with each other as partners/friends/a family. It would be IC of him to think of the rule about past lives as something that could be loosened up once they were strong on their fake backstories.

 

But the more he keeps quiet the more it seems impossible that he could ever have been talkative. I mean, maybe he was a little more open early on and took Elizabeth's reaction as a reason to button up even more, but how could a guy who's so silent now ever be open about his past? I've definitely wondered if this is something that really came up by accident as they just kept choosing not to bring it up, but at this point it seems impossible for them to just suddenly pretend Philip talking about  his past is like Philip going to the bathroom, something we're supposed to assume he's doing off camera. You can't have scenes like the end of last week and then say this isn't a thing with Philip!

 

I remember even making a joke about it before S3 on Twitter, saying something about how a story about the past meant we could have scenes of Elizabeth telling detailed stories about her past while Philip listened in silence. And the producers favorited it, so they must have gotten the joke!

 

Wasn't she in love with someone else?  Their relationship seemed to be simply spy partners, but began to change into more while we watched in season one.

 

 

It was true for Elizabeth but Philip seemed to have already been trying to considered them a family before that and I get the impression he would have always wanted her to like him.

 

Oh, and btw, someone on facebook who seemed to be speaking as a former Soviet citizen made a comment about the KGB recruiting orphans. No idea if that had any basis in reality but naturally I thought of Philip's mysterious past and lack of family cassette tapes!

[maraleia]

I thought we could use a thread that was about Philip and Elizabeth as a couple. Either as a team or as a compare as contrast.

 

Does Elizabeth know more about Philip's background than we do? She knew about Irina--did he tell her right before he met her again, or before?

Great thread idea...love the Russian portmanteau.

[gwhh]

Does anyone else think Elizabeth is starting to see that Philip is right about Paige and her not becoming a spy?

 

Love the Russian portmanteau also

[sistermagpie]

Does anyone else think Elizabeth is starting to see that Philip is right about Paige and her not becoming a spy?

 

 

I think she will see it but isn't yet. She's starting the season so obviously leaning towards that idea that she just has to start seeing things that make her question it. It's not even just about Paige--or even mostly about Paige. It's Elizabeth herself and what she thinks she should be and how she feels about her own mother and life and whether she really has to repeat everything there. Right now she seems to be somewhat in denial about how much she's treating Paige like an asset but I feel like she's got to have a moment where she creeps herself out on that.

[gwhh]

I had this thought while watching the show. They talk a lot in the KGB work cars!

Did anyone else think that the KGB may have bugged there work cars and been listing to there every word as of late?

The KGB watch everyone and than the watch each other just in case.

Edited February 14, 2015 by gwhh

[Umbelina]

So do all intelligence services.  I read several books from that CIA commentator on CNN.  He also did the commentary and consulted on RED (that cools movie about older spies.)  He says they always assume they are bugged by their own people.

 

Robert Baer.  He also recommended books by Alan Furst, so I read them all.  He said that Alan was the most realistic of the spy novelists, had it down on that commentary.  http://www.alanfurst.net/

[sistermagpie]

I am not sure how many examples we need that their jobs result in neglectful parenting that have put Paige and Henry at serious risk. Seriously all of these things in combination in this day and age may very well lead to a child protective services investigation of Elizabeth and phillip. Maybe it wouldnt have back then, but now it might.

 

 

The very fact that they have dangerous jobs that could get them killed or put the kids in danger is a major flaw in them as parents. But you don't have to be neglectful for most of these things to happen:

 

Henry and Paige were picked up by a hitchhiker while trying to get home and could have easily been raped and/or killed.

 

 

Henry and Paige were left alone in the woods in a cabin with no adults around while their parents were trying to "protect" them at the end of last season.

 

 

No sign of disinterest in their kids here. They were kidnapped and didn't get home as early as they wanted or planned. This can happen to non-spy parents as well. (Of course, these are examples that show that their job is a risk for their kids, which is a given flaw.)

 

Paige rode a bus hours to another state and returned, spying on her parents, before they even realized she had done it, though they figured it out after the fact only because someone else knew and told them

 

Paige left her room in the middle of the night to meet a friend she had met on that bus and ended up at a church youth group meeting, something her parents had no idea about for several weeks

 

Henry left their house and snuck into a neighbors house to play a video game, was found by the neighbors and Elizabeth and phillip had to be notified he was not at home

 

 

These last three are all examples of the kids acting like completely normal free-range kids (that word seems to have been invented because people are now looking back on the advantages of it) in the early 80s with their parents being normal parents. Paige and Henry both lied and covered their tracks about where they were going in much of these examples (or slipped out of the house while a parent was in the other room--and not in the middle of the night), so it was hardly disinterest that kept their parents from knowing exactly where they were.

 

My parents were not spies and my mother didn't even have a job. Yet I could easily have done any of these things at their age--and did versions of a few of them. Freaks & Geeks takes place at the same time period and those kids are also shown out and about the same way with their super ordinary parents.

 

I actually think this sort of thing is an interesting reflection on Elizabeth, especially, seeing her upbringing as so different from Paige's. She and Philip obviously both had a lot of responsibility at younger ages than Paige and Henry, and from what we know of Elizabeth and her mother it seems like she'd find this sort of thinking about parenting completely foreign.

Edited February 20, 2015 by sistermagpie

[sistermagpie]

Again, I always flip the scrip with this show, and imagine it from the POV of Philip and Elizabeth as undercover CIA in Russia.  It makes the "who is wrong?" thing so much more interesting for me.  I still wonder if Philip would be the one people didn't like as much if his loyalty to the USA and democracy was shaky, and Elizabeth the more liked one since she'd be the True Blue American.

 

I think she would still come across as more of a problem actually--and that's a good thing. But maybe that's because I don't see her as a villain--I think the show's done a good job showing where she's coming from. I also think she'd be viewed the same way if she was the man. i actually get annoyed when Philip gets reduced to "seduced by America and wants to defect and be capitalist" because I don't think it's like that. Elizabeth sees it like that, but she's pretty judgmental on that score! I don't think people would necessarily prefer CIA Elizabeth who thought all Russians were heartless robots to CIA Philip who liked them as people and had come to enjoy parts of the culture. Especially if we got to know some of the Russian characters and they were just innocent, ordinary people trying to get along.

 

There would no doubt be some who would cheer her on because they sided with America in ways they don't since she's Russian, it's true. But the real problem with her is her putting the cause above people. Philip's position on Paige really is the American position regardless of his nationality, because he wants her to be free to choose her own path. I think even in the flipped version what Elizabeth is doing would be seen as more than just sharing different beliefs with Paige. I think Philip showing more compassion and empathy would come across the same way in the CIA version if played the same way. (As opposed to, say, having Philip's compassion constantly rewarded with betrayal from the evil Russians or whatever.)

Edited March 10, 2015 by sistermagpie

[gwhh]

Does anyone else wonder where he gets his black gloves he wears when he commits murder and mayhem? Do the KGB gives it to him or does he buy them somewhere in the USA?

[Chaos Theory]

My parents were not spies and my mother didn't even have a job. Yet I could easily have done any of these things at their age--and did versions of a few of them. Freaks & Geeks takes place at the same time period and those kids are also shown out and about the same way with their super ordinary parents.

How do you know your parents weren't spies? I am keeping my eyes on you. Edited March 11, 2015 by Chaos Theory

[Hecate7]

The very fact that they have dangerous jobs that could get them killed or put the kids in danger is a major flaw in them as parents. But you don't have to be neglectful for most of these things to happen:

 

 

 

No sign of disinterest in their kids here. They were kidnapped and didn't get home as early as they wanted or planned. This can happen to non-spy parents as well. (Of course, these are examples that show that their job is a risk for their kids, which is a given flaw.)

 

 

These last three are all examples of the kids acting like completely normal free-range kids (that word seems to have been invented because people are now looking back on the advantages of it) in the early 80s with their parents being normal parents. Paige and Henry both lied and covered their tracks about where they were going in much of these examples (or slipped out of the house while a parent was in the other room--and not in the middle of the night), so it was hardly disinterest that kept their parents from knowing exactly where they were.

 

My parents were not spies and my mother didn't even have a job. Yet I could easily have done any of these things at their age--and did versions of a few of them. Freaks & Geeks takes place at the same time period and those kids are also shown out and about the same way with their super ordinary parents.

 

I actually think this sort of thing is an interesting reflection on Elizabeth, especially, seeing her upbringing as so different from Paige's. She and Philip obviously both had a lot of responsibility at younger ages than Paige and Henry, and from what we know of Elizabeth and her mother it seems like she'd find this sort of thinking about parenting completely foreign.

 

In the 80s people were not helicopter parents. Children were expected to be home by dark, and to ask permission to go places...sort of. Parents went out of town and left their teens in charge of younger siblings. If anything, Philip and Elizabeth are MORE attentive than the average parent of the day, because they have reasons to be.

[AllyB]

I just did a rewatch of the 3 seasons which has given me some fresh thoughts on their relationship. When the Centre first realised that Philip and Elizabeth's marriage was becoming real, they must have been incredibly suspicious of Philip. For years they have had Elizabeth reporting negatively on Philip, telling them he liked America too much and leaving them to watch him suspiciously. Then all of a sudden Elizabeth meets Zhukov and tells him she was wrong all along and Philip is totally committed. From the Centre's perspective Philip is an agent who's absolute specialty is forming longterm relationships with women and manipulating them to his will. They have to be assuming that he is now working Elizabeth to get her to eventually defect.

 

It's why Claudia spends so much of the first season trying to convince Elizabeth to end the romantic side of the relationship. It's likely why the Centre arranged to send Philip off on a mission with Irina. When he slept with her, for nothing other than his own desire, the Centre must have been convinced that he was playing Elizabeth and then delighted when as a result the pair separated. I would guess that right up until he first tried to protect Elizabeth by meeting with the Colonel himself, then ran from the meeting to save Elizabeth from  the FBI trap, everyone in the Centre presumed he was working Elizabeth. And even then, it's probably really only Claudia, who saw his genuine terror for her and a handful of agents who trust her instincts, who don't still have grave fears about his allegiance and what the real purpose of his relationship with Elizabeth is.

But in reality the Centre have it backwards. Philip was done in the first episode, he was about to defect and Elizabeth seemed like she might let him. If he wasn't in love with Elizabeth he would have taken Timoshev to Beeman. He would have heard about the rape and probably felt compassion for Elizabeth, and possibly still killed Timoshev. But he would still have defected in the following days. He would likely have even used Elizabeth's rape as justification, why should he stay loyal to an organisation that allows superior officers to use their trainees in that way? But once Elizabeth opened up to him and began to love him, he was trapped. He is so unlikely to ever leave her. Elizabeth is unwittingly doing to him what he does to Martha and Annaliese. But every time the Centre undermines their relationship, attempting to keep the Jennings in line, they are undermining their control because at this point Elizabeth's love is the only reason Philip still does what he does.

[sistermagpie]

But in reality the Centre have it backwards. Philip was done in the first episode, he was about to defect and Elizabeth seemed like she might let him. If he wasn't in love with Elizabeth he would have taken Timoshev to Beeman. He would have heard about the rape and probably felt compassion for Elizabeth, and possibly still killed Timoshev. But he would still have defected in the following days.

 

 

Disjointed thoughts ahead where I think I agree but with a little change....

 

Philip seemed inspired to defect due to two very specific things happening at once in the pilot: Stan moving in and Timoshev winding up in their garage. On the one hand he had this guy who seemed like a sign the FBI was onto them or would be soon, on the other this guy who had a comfortable life after defecting who was worth something. The two of them are in a bit of a Mexican stand-off there with Philip saying "put the family first" and Elizabeth saying "put the cause (but really me) first." And they sort of both get what they want. 

 

In killing Timoshev I think Philip knowingly killed his chances for defecting the way he wanted because he had nothing to bargain with besides offering up Elizabeth and others. His plan seemed to be for all of them to go into Witness Protection together, the whole family, in a deal he bought with Timoshev. At that time he knew Elizabeth didn't love him since she'd never given any sign that she did. (This is one of many reasons that whole scene in the pilot in my head either has to get written off as "slightly OOC for both because it's the pilot" or "really really complex and a moment of great strangeness and surprising truth for both of them"--obviously I prefer the latter.)

 

But he still tells Gabriel later that there was a "lightning bolt" when he met Elizabeth--for him, that meeting seemed to be really important. When he's talked about it (twice--the scene doesn't seem as important to Elizabeth and even the flashback is the only one in the pilot that's from Philip's pov) he's described it as the beginning of two things: him being devoted to Elizabeth and Elizabeth not being devoted to him. So I guess I'm saying I'm not quite sure that Philip is motivated by Elizabeth being in love with him so much as a devotion to her that's part of him regardless of how she feels. This is a guy who's also embraced a personal, deep, emotional loyalty to a son who might not even exist. I don't even know if his feelings on this are simply being "in love." She's almost like his ultimate touchstone or lodestar despite often disagreeing with her.

 

So when I think of that moment when Elizabeth tells him to take Timoshev to the Americans if he wants...the only way it makes sense to me for her to do something so OOC is that she does it because although she doesn't know it right then she really is in love with Philip--or more importantly she's come to suspect that he's the only person she can really count on to care about her. When he proves that by killing his ticket to a cushy defection without a second thought (he "doesn't blink" the same way her mother didn't blink, but goes in the opposite direction, putting her above everything) it seals the deal that this guy is different. When she kicks him out of the house he continues to be personally loyal to her. In the first season he really proves that he's loyal to her regardless of what he's getting out of it. She's sort of testing what that loyalty looks like (it's not perfect--he sleeps with Irina and they'll always be parts of him she doesn't get/understand).

 

But still, obviously Elizabeth is the biggest thing keeping Philip as loyal as he is now. He's not defecting unless he convince her to defect with him with the family. And the Centre does seem to see her new feelings for Philip as a problem--Claudia spoke of the Centre "losing her" and being sucked in by some guy who wasn't capable of loving her the way she was capable of loving him. At least on that second part she seems to get that she was completely misunderstanding who Philip was--and I think it's significant that Claudia is a character who doesn't know Philip at all. So she's maybe the one most likely to look at him on paper and see him as primarily the world's greatest honeypot, incapable of true love.

 

But now I'm thinking that the Centre itself might actually have started out the opposite way. Last season Gabriel lamented that Elizabeth was better able to keep Philip in line in the past. He makes note of Elizabeth finally loving Philip *to Philip* in a way that shows he sees that as a thing valuable to Philip that's keeping him in line. In the Centre's view, perhaps, Elizabeth was the one doing the honeypotting. This would actually make sense given what we see of Philip's personality. We don't know anything about his past, but the Centre would presumably know everything about it. When they manipulate him they use two main methods: they tell him he's the best at what he does and they impress upon him that people need him and his protection. So they may have spent a long time feeling complacent that Philip had successfully imprinted on Elizabeth while also being sure that Elizabeth would never love him back.

 

In that case they would not want to break them up so much as get things back the way they were before (just as Elizabeth did). They're not worried about Philip not being in love with Elizabeth because they think that's a given. They *do* want him in love with her because they get that this is an important tool to manipulate him. They just want her to not love him back, because that undermines how they manipulate her. They want her totally devoted to the Centre while effortlessly leading Philip behind her. Basically, Philip should be like Gregory.

 

But he's not like Gregory, because first, he doesn't love Elizabeth the Cold Warrior. Plus now that she loves him she's started considering his feelings the way he considers hers--and considering their feelings in general is bad. 

Edited February 18, 2016 by sistermagpie

[Chaos Theory]

Feelings never played a part before. In theory they were each other's cover not really really married. Which is why the Clark/Martha wedding scene is a work of brilliance. Elizabeth tells Philip later that they are just words but maybe things would have been different between them if they had said them.

I think for a long time and we see hints of this Philip was just a cover for Elizabeth. She did what she had to but like a good socialist she kept a careful eye on Philip and informed on him up until he killed Timoshev. That was an odd romantic gesture for Elizabeth

Philip would be perfectly fine defecting and the only thing keeping him from is loyalty to Elizabeth. However now that Paige and her welfare is becoming an issue it might be a battleground to which one becomes more of an issue. .

[sistermagpie]

Feelings never played a part before. In theory they were each other's cover not really really married. Which is why the Clark/Martha wedding scene is a work of brilliance. Elizabeth tells Philip later that they are just words but maybe things would have been different between them if they had said them.

 

 

Depends what you mean by "feelings" though. They weren't in a romantic relationship, but Philip was loyal to Elizabeth before that happened. The Centre was keeping an eye on the feelings that were actually there all along--we see two different scenes with Zhukov and Elizabeth where he's talking about her becoming attached to him because as partners they have to have each other's backs. But they would still have known what made both of them tick. Elizabeth was always the teacher's pet ready to report her "concerns" about Philip to the Centre, but I suspect they always knew that Philip himself would never inform on her because that's just not how he operates. He did the same thing with Irina. He didn't run away with her, but he also didn't report that she was thinking of defecting. If the whole Irina thing was a set-up then they knew he did that.

[sistermagpie]

But, that's the thing, I find Philip far less compelling (and slightly unbelievable) if he's doing this just because he "fell into it" as a result of a damaged childhood. What makes Elizabeth compelling as a character is that she REALLY believes in the cause. She's willing to bend over backwards, sacrificing herself time and time again because she's so passionate. That's easier for me to understand and resonate with than Philip, who kills innocents merely because... what... it's his job? In that light he's no better than a hired hitman. If he doesn't believe in the underlying idealogical principles then he's far less compelling than Elizabeth.  And to be honest, if he really doesn't believe in the underlying cause then I don't even find it believable that Elizabeth would love him. She's a die-hard of the highest order.

 

 

 

I totally agree. I don't believe he fell into it or that he doesn't believe in the cause (I don't think the showrunners do either). I think there are things in his life that would point him in the direction he went, of course, but that same is true for Elizabeth. Her background as a kid growing up just after WWII, her mother's own convictions, the way her mother related to her father and his being a deserter, the way Elizabeth related to her father when she only knew he was a soldier, the destruction she'd have seen all around her in Smolensk.

 

All those things made Elizabeth psychologically likely to want to join the cause, but they're also her actual beliefs.

 

I see the exact same thing in Philip, just framed a different way. Even if we don't know about his actual origins nothing about him, to me, supports the idea that he sees his job as a path to security (or even a loyal family unit). If he was attracted to the feeling of family the Centre provided that's fine--Elizabeth would be equally attracted to the opportunities it gave for approval. But again and again, imo, Philip has shown himself to be motivated by a protective instinct and a compassion and understanding for others. To me, this seems to be how he relates to the cause. Elizabeth is more about ideals. She thinks it's wrong to question the means to the end. She has faith that what she is doing will have the result of making the world better and freeing people. Philip, imo, may often doubt that what he is doing at any particular moment is going to directly lead to these goals, but he still has those goals. The Cause on paper, imo, makes sense to him as a way of helping people who need help and protecting them from those who would exploit them.

 

And really, Philip's issues with the Centres are kind of a flip-side of that. He doesn't expect the Centre to put their well-being above the cause or always be in agreement with them, but he thinks they deserve some regard as people. (Note their different reactions to the Centre's actions: In Trust Me Philip doesn't take it personally when the Centre questions their loyalty because he's pragmatic; Elizabeth is hurt to the core that her years of loyalty mean nothing to them. In S3 Elizabeth instinctively dismisses her relationship with her mother as something the Centre shouldn't care about; Philip thinks this is exactly the kind of thing the Centre should respect given her sacrifices.)

 

Gabriel knows them both really well. Last season when he wanted to manipulate Elizabeth he flattered her by appealing to her commitment and offered her approval  (from him, from the Centre, from her mother). When he wanted to manipulate Philip he flattered him by appealing to his skill and emphasized how much he was needed. He didn't subtly hint about all the Centre had done for him or whatever. His biggest piece of manipulation was to come up with an individual for Philip to focus on and protect. (And he obviously knew that Philip, unlike plenty of other men, would not be able to dismiss that idea.)

 

And I also totally agree that Elizabeth could not love him if he didn't really believe in the cause. It seems to me that one of the ways Elizabeth has evolved during the series is in her dawning understanding that just because Philip doesn't express his support for the cause the same way she does doesn't mean he doesn't support it. It's one of the things she doesn't quite understand about him, imo, but if she really doubted the commitment I can't see how she would love him. She dismissed him as disloyal in the past and he was genuinely angered and hurt by it. She does get that he puts herself and the kids above that commitment, but that's okay. Maybe that's even great with her since she's afraid to openly make that choice herself.

[Umbelina]

I agree with you that more information on Philip's motivation would be good.

 

In reality though, I think they would embed people based more on their ability to speak English without accents, and that's not really something you can teach.  Some have it, some don't.  Once they found people that had it, the rest of the training and indoctrination would be focused on those kids.  Why bother if that skill wasn't present?

[sistermagpie]

Oh, definitely. Though in the flashback with Timoshev Elizabeth isn't very good in that area at all. I know someone who wrote a whole fanfic just to explain that to herself.

[Umbelina]

Well, that's what it would be, fanfic.  Ha.  Without language skills, they would have found someone else.

 

It's OK though, so much of this show is in fanfic territory.  I love it too much to care, but I'm certainly aware that Philip and Elizabeth wouldn't be having all these shoot 'em or strangle them duties, let alone stealing defense plans, or missile documents, or doing breaking and entering, planting bugs in mail robots and the like.  There were plenty of less valuable spies available for routine tasks like that, and the KGB would never risk the incredibly valuable embedded spies on things like that.  Their cover was too dearly won, and it was carefully protected.  Frankly, I seriously doubt they would even be involved in transporting the vial of poison.

 

Recruiting spies though?  Yes, absolutely, their job would have been exactly that (Martha, the teenager, the guy Elizabeth was training) and of course working in places where secrets might be obtained (as they are saying the plans were for Paige.)  You don't have to be in the top tier of secret places to find secrets.

 

It's incredibly fun to watch though.

[scartact]

All the discussion in the "Travel Agents" thread about P&E has caused me to begin pondering: why did Philip develop feelings for Elizabeth in the first place? Especially given how cold she could be and probably most definitely was to him, what exactly was it that drew him to her? Part of me is basically like, "I gotta read more fanfic about pre-Pilot Phil & Liz" because I'm so curious about that particular dynamic before they made it real.

I mean, there was the whole spark thing he talks about with Gabriel, but that's just really not enough (or much) of an explanation for me. I'm kinda thinking it has something to do with how much Philip enjoys domesticity and his children (not to say that Liz doesn't either, but she recognizes that he understands them and their mindset much better than she does, and perhaps ever will), and also his great difficulty with separating what is real and what isn't. I always kinda looked at it as Philip becoming the mask. Anyone have any thoughts?

[Umbelina]

I think when she is practically the only one who knows where he comes from, speaks his language, and the one he must depend upon in life threatening situations there is a natural bond.  If she was a guy and they were posing as brothers, I'm sure a deep trust and affection would have developed as well.  They are soldiers in a war, doing scary things in a foreign land.  That alone would create a strong bond. 

They had children together, and Philip is a softie about that as well.  They are both hot and well trained in sex. 

Is it really that hard to figure out?  You spend 20 years with one person who understands your background, they are hot, they give you children, and you depend on them completely.  It was pretty much bound to happen.

ETA

People who work together fall in love all the time, proximity and time are huge factors in who many end up loving.  If it works for people in an office it would certainly be easier when you are sharing a house for your "job."

Edited May 1, 2016 by Umbelina

[scartact]

I don't know if that's enough of a reason for me. I mean, I'll buy that their entire situation and circumstances paved way for a very strong and intimate bond, regardless of whether or not Elizabeth wanted to regard Philip as anything more than part of her duty as an officer of the KGB. But I'm still just very curious about what specific circumstances paved way for Philip to even have those very specific feelings for her. Or maybe what I'm thinking more about is how Philip's fundamental differences as a person allowed him to feel very real toward her the same way Elizabeth's own fundamental differences paved way for her to maintain intense focus on her commitment to duty and service to the motherland over any notion she would want to fall in love with Philip. I don't know. We haven't really seen anyone else on the show with similar/same circumstances as Phil & Liz, other than Emmett and Leanne, but it isn't as if we had much time to explore any of their dynamic since they really just served the plot as a reflection of what could happen to the Jennings family.

For me, I just really wonder at what point Philip truly fell in love with Elizabeth. As in, do I buy that in the pilot, Philip was already in love with Elizabeth, or that he merely had very strong feelings for her that bloomed into love as she began to reciprocate? I mean, I wonder this too while buying that Philip absolutely does love Elizabeth. I just want to know where it came form in the first place. I just kind of want more of an origin story on that. Especially because with what very little backstory we do have on Philip, we do know before he met Elizabeth he was in love with another woman, and he even carried her photograph up to the point right before General Zhukov brought him in to meet Elizabeth.

[Umbelina]

I sound so unromantic, but honestly, I think it's mostly based on trust, familiarity, isolation, and loneliness.  What other woman around his age can he possibly be himself with?  Ditto for Elizabeth.

It's pretty hard to imagine, but try to think of yourself stationed in Moscow, perhaps for your lifetime, and the only other American's you ever see are Gabe and Martha?  Your pretend spouse and you are the only people your age who share memories of your time in the United States, or even your real language.  They are young, attractive, and committed to the very same things you believe in, not Borscht and the star and sickle, but Apple Pie and the Stars and Stripes.  Your partner saves your life several times, and the CIA tells you it would be a good time to start having a couple of kids so you seem normal to the neighbors.  So, you do, turkey baster's are hard to find, sex is inevitable anyway.  You have a boy and a girl, and children, hormones, all of that induces yet another bond.

I guess it's possible that you see some cute guy on the street, abandon your duty and country and "fall in love" with a local, but seriously?  One or both of you will be dead eventually, so why even start something up with someone you will have to lie to or betray both your partner and your country?

The miracle would be if they didn't feel something for each other after 20 years.

[scartact]

You know what, the more I think about it, the more I believe the root of my question can be traced back to our lack of knowledge of Philip's past, which this thread has addressed in those previous posts. I'm just really curious about how his personal history has impacted why he would catch feelings first for Elizabeth. I guess I should also clarify too that of course I believe they must have felt something for each other, regardless of whether or not it would be love or tenderness or what have you. Of course they obviously feel something for each other because 20+ years is a very long time to know someone and feel only apathy toward them. Especially if you work in such immensely close and intimate quarters with them.

But I also think just as much as it's possible to fall in love with someone under those circumstances, it's also possible to not. I mean, Elizabeth was an example of that for the first 15ish years of their marriage, right? She only barely began to fall in love with him, but we were able to see the circumstances of that unfold. The show catches Philip kinda in media res his feelings with Elizabeth in the Pilot.

I just wish I knew more about who Philip was before joining the KGB, but so far we've only really gotten... two flashbacks of him that had nothing to do with Elizabeth. One with Irina, and the other just this season about him killing that kid.

[sistermagpie]

13 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I sound so unromantic, but honestly, I think it's mostly based on trust, familiarity, isolation, and loneliness.  What other woman around his age can he possibly be himself with?  Ditto for Elizabeth.

I think in real life Illegals often didn't fall for each other, so that probably isn't true that they would definitely fall in love just due to circumstances. They could have grown to resent each other--just as real married couples do. Could have had relationships with people like Gregory. Sure those people wouldn't share their Russian background, but plenty of people fall in love with foreigners. Of if you look at a lot of arranged marriages, I think a lot of them do grow a strong bond over the years, but that's a differently thing that falling passionately in love like these two did. It almost seems like a plus that these two somehow retained a spikey-ness between them when many arranged marriages might have had a brother/sister quality. Which can be just as loving, don't get me wrong, but it's not what these two have. (Sometimes they do have a brother/sister vibe--those kittens from the same litter again--but it's an incestuous one!)

12 hours ago, scartact said:

I'm just really curious about how his personal history has impacted why he would catch feelings first for Elizabeth.

Yes, with Elizabeth I think we do see some things of why Philip would do something for her, but only after she grew up. Presumably Zhukov paired them in part because psychologically he thought they were a good match. (Gabriel says she rejected one person, but who knows the story there? ) Philip is able to stand up for things that Elizabeth doesn't think she can stand up for, but wants to (like her kids and her own well-being). He's a challenge because he's different from her, doesn't seem easily understood or controlled. Another very important thing could be his passive, hands-off way of dealing with her that lets her feel in control without feeling like he's just a wuss. Plenty of other guys assigned to her wouldn't have been so patient or respectful of her sexual boundaries, for instance, but Philip was somebody who never questioned it, which I think also made her trust him and see him as different from other guys she dealt with. We know for her it took a long time and she probably couldn't really even articulate why it happened.

For Philip we really have nothing. He told Gabriel he had a "lightning bolt" moment when he met her but...why? She's pretty but come on, what's that about? Is he remembering it differently now? Would he have felt that way about Leanne if he was paired with her instead? He remembers clearly that she seemed disappointed in him when they met--is that something he likes in a person? I think he trusts that she loves the kids as much as he does, so that's something that's going to make her love her, but not necessarily romantically.

It's not like Irina gives us any clues. When I saw we were going to have a Philip flashback ep I thought oh, now we'll know about him like we do about Elizabeth but...we didn't. Philip/Irina was totally generic with know hint about what he liked about this woman (and she seemed unlike Elizabeth). Knowing Philip's personality he might have found some Gregory of his own and had a relationship with her under a different persona at least, but he didn't. I can't even quite see how the things that make Elizabeth different from him attract him the way I do with her--does he admire how she's so devoted to the cause? Admire it to the point he loves her? Does he just see her as trying to hard and admire that? Over the years she must have been tender to him plenty of times despite not loving him--they've always taken care of each other's injuries, for instance. But again, is that about Elizabeth or just the role she played?

The main thing that I remember thinking in S1 that made her a good match for him is the way she is so straightforward and demanding of truth and seemingly impervious to his manipulation. I mean, I think Philip's instinctive reaction to anybody is to try to become what they want him to be, and I think Elizabeth just made that impossible because she didn't want him to be anybody. So he almost had to just give up and be himself with her more than he was with anybody else. That's the best I can think of for why she, more than anyone else in the world, is his touchstone. Which matches her, I guess. She represents the kind of strong identity he lacks (but has openly admired in Paige) and he represents the strong empathy and understanding.

Edited May 1, 2016 by sistermagpie

[Umbelina]

Quote

Sure those people wouldn't share their Russian background, but plenty of people fall in love with foreigners.

These aren't just "people" though, they are embedded spies in a foreign land.  Of course regular people fall in love with foreigners!  They can share their lives, their secrets, they can change and adapt their futures together, they are free to do that.

My point was neither Philip or Elizabeth can be honest with others.  They are living the life of a married couple and parents in a very closed off way, and they may never be able to leave that life.  It's been over twenty years now, and counting.  They also shared many life and death situations, the whole "foxhole" comradery that few outside a war zone will ever share, and they aren't doing it for a 2 or 4 year tour, they never leave.  They may never leave for all they know.  In addition to all of that, they parent together, they created new human beings together and they are responsible to those children.

Their bonds are very tight, and yes, they could and have had squabbles and other loves, but really, the strongest relationship they have is together.  Add in that they are both attractive, complicated, and usually in danger, that they have no one else their age to be real with?  I think their paths eventually did lead to love.  Not so much "falling" in love, as walking into it with eyes wide open, an inevitability, rather than a grand passion.  Frankly I think walking into love can often lead to better relationships anyway.  It's not a bad thing.

That said, where do most adult people meet their spouses or lovers?  Work, church, dating on line, friends, bars, with work probably being close to the top.  Why?  Because at work you can get to know someone naturally, without the pressure.  Obviously, they don't really have friends, go to bars or church, and even though "on line" is coming up fast, that's not an option for them either.  Really, they have no options, so why not make the best of the sexy, loyal, person who really knows you and you are sharing your life with anyway?

[scartact]

28 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

For Philip we really have nothing. He told Gabriel he had a "lightning bolt" moment when he met her but...why? She's pretty but come on, what's that about? Is he remembering it differently now? Would he have felt that way about Leanne if he was paired with her instead? He remembers clearly that she seemed disappointed in him when they met--is that something he likes in a person? I think he trusts that she loves the kids as much as he does, so that's something that's going to make her love her, but not necessarily romantically.

Exactly, and this is why I'm curious about whether or not it was Elizabeth he specifically fell in love with (and if so, why?), or if the circumstances had been any different would he have felt that way about anyone? Perhaps, it comes down to how he interacts with and is most loyal to their family. If I had a better sense of his family life growing up, maybe it would give me a better sense of the why. But right now, my speculation is that perhaps he grew up as an orphan (or didn't have a family the way Elizabeth at least had her mother), and that maybe being presented with Elizabeth and their fake marriage, and then later eventually having children with her made him start to develop real feelings for her. The spark just indicates there was already an attraction for him, and that attraction could very well turn into something more. But again, this is all just speculation because we don't know anything about him/Mischa.

Or hell, maybe I'm just overthinking it. We already know Philip struggles with compartmentalizing, and falling for Elizabeth is just also wrapped up in several things, including the very real children they have, that she is the only one who knows him both on the job and behind closed doors, that they have a very effective partnership, and even that they have chemistry (going back to this "spark" he felt when he first met her).

I just feel like crediting it merely to circumstances, wouldn't that have meant Elizabeth would have fallen in love with Philip fall earlier than she actually did? But also again, we know who Elizabeth is and she was definitely not very reciprocal of Philip's feelings until the Pilot too, so why else would he have continued to foster these feelings if she has only treated him as nothing more than her cover? (But actually, I'm sure she felt more complicated toward him than that he was just a cover, and I'm sure she didn't fully appreciate how much he understood and understands her until that moment he killed Timoshev.)

[sistermagpie]

5 hours ago, scartact said:

I just feel like crediting it merely to circumstances, wouldn't that have meant Elizabeth would have fallen in love with Philip fall earlier than she actually did? But also again, we know who Elizabeth is and she was definitely not very reciprocal of Philip's feelings until the Pilot too, so why else would he have continued to foster these feelings if she has only treated him as nothing more than her cover? (But actually, I'm sure she felt more complicated toward him than that he was just a cover, and I'm sure she didn't fully appreciate how much he understood and understands her until that moment he killed Timoshev.)

Also, even if it is just circumstances the characters wouldn't experience it that way. They would have things about the other person they would feel were specific things. I mean, they're not articulate people so it's not like they could write an essay on their feelings about the other person, but there are a lot of things they know about each other and there'd be behaviors they would look forward to with other people.

I was just thinking after talking so much about Martha/Clark and how to me it doesn't seem like he ever enjoys his time with her the way even friends do (for instance, comparing it even to Philip/Sandra) and I thought that it's funny how Elizabeth started off where it was almost a joke that she had no sense of humor. Philip in S1 says "Is that a joke?" at one point. But now she is often the one making jokes. He still does too, but his jokes tend to be a little darker. Anyway, my point was it seems like she's become a little more like Philip in that way too. Not that she never had jokes with Gregory, but I feel like she's almost consciously imitated him a little bit that way, like she liked his style.

[Inquisitionist]

I'd love some more backstory on P&E's early years in the U.S.  Even logistics like how they got set up in the travel agent business.  They were in their early 20s upon arrival -- not really a plausible cover story for them to own an agency at that young age, unless they were supposed to have inherited it.  But they seem to have been scrupulous about not inventing fictional parents.  Maybe they (or Philip) started out working for the agency, then the KGB arranged for him to buy it?

 

I'm also curious as to how much field work Elizabeth did when the children were young. We saw a flashback or two in the second season with Elizabeth talking to Leeanne, who seemed to be something of a mentor to her.  It seemed she was showing her the ropes about child-rearing practices in this country.  On the one hand, it would seem that Elizabeth couldn't have been running the kinds of missions in those days that we see her undertake today, but on the other, how did she retain all those skills (especially martial arts) unless she was actively using them?

[sistermagpie]

31 minutes ago, Inquisitionist said:

I'm also curious as to how much field work Elizabeth did when the children were young. We saw a flashback or two in the second season with Elizabeth talking to Leeanne, who seemed to be something of a mentor to her.  It seemed she was showing her the ropes about child-rearing practices in this country.  On the one hand, it would seem that Elizabeth couldn't have been running the kinds of missions in those days that we see her undertake today, but on the other, how did she retain all those skills (especially martial arts) unless she was actively using them?

I imagine Elizabeth made sure Philip was sharing the childcare to some extent. I mean, in some ways they obviously follow standard gender roles (I always thought it was funny in S1 where it's just a given that if they split up Elizabeth gets the kids even though she's the one who wants to concentrate on her work) but she must have been running her own operations so they switched on and off. 

I remember in the flashback we see to when Elizabeth decides to have kids they're living in an apartment that's probably more along the lines of what a young married couple would have in 1967 so they probably did build a meticulous backstory and career for them. It would be hard for them to be accountable to boss so maybe they were able to fake freelance-type work that could lead them to buying an agency eventually? 

I loved that apartment because it reminded you how even though they weren't a married couple they do still have a history like a married couple could have. So they could say stuff like, "Oh yeah, when you were born we were still living on X Street in the city..." They must have totally copied the usual trajectory of an up and coming couple that way, moving from small apartment to big house in the suburbs and owning their own business.

[Loandbehold]

Quote

Inquisitionist On the one hand, it would seem that Elizabeth couldn't have been running the kinds of missions in those days that we see her undertake today, but on the other, how did she retain all those skills (especially martial arts) unless she was actively using them?

Mommy and Me Krav Maga class.

[sistermagpie]

Quote

My personal take on Philizabeth, is that Elizabeth spent the entire first season falling in love with Philip at last. to the point where post-gunshot recuperation, she’s actively been longing to see and be with him.  I also think they’d have a lot more in common and bond closer if they were allowed/allowing each other to bond about past life in Russia. 

I sometimes wonder why Elizabeth doesn't even try to do this. I mean, she herself totally identifies as Nadia from Smolensk. It doesn't take much for her to refer to her own life in different ways. Yet she has very little interest in who the Russian man she's married to is. Early on, of course, she was following the rules to the letter and not speaking about her past and not caring about Philip anyway. But now I sometimes wonder why, especially in those scenes where Elizabeth says something about her own life and Philip simply listens in silence, why she doesn't ever prompt him.

Early on I remember many assumed we should think that Philip had already told her about himself and we were just seeing Elizabeth finally opening up now, but given how absolutely closed-mouthed he is it's just impossible to imagine a past where he was that chatty, especially when Elizabeth would presumably have been enforcing the rules.

This might have started just in a meta sense--they haven't revealed his past to the audience yet, so she doesn't ask. But I feel like there has to be a Watsonian answer to it too. It makes me think there's got to be something about her that fears it, somehow doesn't want to know. But why not? Does she know just enough (more than us) to know not to ask more? Even when he says something she doesn't encourage him to elaborate. He started to tell the story of the bullies back at the end of S2 and now we know that she definitely never did get him to finish the story off-screen. Does she assume he doesn't want to share things with her since he doesn't?

[scartact]

It's a little funny to me that people find Elizabeth harder to read because I actually think Philip is harder to understand, partially because his history is very obscured to us. While he is often the more emotionally reactive (volatile?) of the two, we aren't given nearly as much context as we get for Elizabeth about why he does certain things or makes particular choices. I wonder if part of this is also because the writers may find Elizabeth's past the more interesting one to explore, or if we are building to something more about Philip? I don't know, but either way, I would really, really love to have more information and flashbacks to pre-KGB, pre-Irina Mischa.

I do wonder about how much Elizabeth has pressed Philip too, and I wonder how much of it is just that Philip has a hard time really putting into words all these things. I've often found Philip to be the more abstract of the two. When he talks about something, it's really about how he feels vs. how he thinks. I'm not quite sure if I'm making sense, but I've always read Philip as a very feeling person and Elizabeth as a very thinking person.

Then again, I still can buy a premise where it was Philip who initially tried to use real details about his pre-KGB life and Elizabeth shut that out from him. Perhaps, it's the circumstances we as viewers are brought into that while we may not know anything about his past, Elizabeth knows more than we do? After all, in Duty & Honor, she sure knew who Irina was before Philip left for New York.

This also makes me think about how in the recent Slate Insider podcast, the J's talk about how Elizabeth is the most guarded character especially in terms of her emotions, but I think Philip is the most guarded in terms of his details! Maybe they haven't gotten an opportunity to address this because no one has asked, or maybe they will get to it eventually.

[sistermagpie]

12 hours ago, scartact said:

 

It's a little funny to me that people find Elizabeth harder to read because I actually think Philip is harder to understand, partially because his history is very obscured to us.

 

Elizabeth is certainly guarded in ways that Philip isn't, but in some ways it's the opposite. Elizabeth has explained her emotions very eloquently on occasion. Or she's mentioned things in her past that give context to her emotions.

But this lack of context for Philip is huge to me. There really is a difference between knowing the way Philip's going to be because we know his patterns by now and knowing where those feelings come from. He himself even struggled to express this when he was talking to Martha before confessing the EST stuff to Elizabeth. He said something like "I'm thinking about stuff from when I was a kid...dumb stuff...and you wonder 'Is this why I am the way I am? Is this why I'm so angry about this?'

Which is exactly how psychology works, yes, Philip. And we have no idea about that context with him where with Elizabeth we actually have the basics of her life throughout time really well. At first I got it in terms of why they'd start with her. Her feelings are sometimes less easy to accept (like her focus on mission over everything and her thinking it's good for the kids to be working for the Centre) so they wanted to explain her.

But at this point it seems like of the two Philip is far more inchoate in some ways. He's like a well you could drop a stone in and never hear it fall when it comes to his basic motivations imo. And I assume that's one reason why every season seems to be kind of based on Elizabeth's arc. She almost always provides the spine of things. In S1 she's dealing with loving Philip (kicking him out, taking him back). In S2 dealing with her feelings about her children (flashbacks to her decisions to have them, her changing feelings about Jared). In S3 it's about telling Paige (more history with her mother, dealing with the fallout). We get clear flashbacks and beats where she changes how she feels. Philip, by contrast, tends to just do stuff without us getting a window into why except for the surrounding circumstances. Which does explain it enough to have it make sense, but it makes him the more unknown character.

This story started--surprise--with a Philip flashback, but as usual it's without context and we're not led by the hand as much in terms of how it relates to him now.

[scartact]

10 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

And I assume that's one reason why every season seems to be kind of based on Elizabeth's arc. She almost always provides the spine of things. In S1 she's dealing with loving Philip (kicking him out, taking him back). In S2 dealing with her feelings about her children (flashbacks to her decisions to have them, her changing feelings about Jared). In S3 it's about telling Paige (more history with her mother, dealing with the fallout). We get clear flashbacks and beats where she changes how she feels. Philip, by contrast, tends to just do stuff without us getting a window into why except for the surrounding circumstances. Which does explain it enough to have it make sense, but it makes him the more unknown character.

I really love all the points you've made @sistermagpie (welp, interesting time to learn we can tag specific users), especially the idea of Elizabeth's character arc(s) being a kind of season-to-season touchstone for the show. In some ways, the show does feel quite like the story of how Elizabeth grows to the point Philip is at right now, where he's having a harder time accepting his role as a cog in the Soviet machine, and thus his storylines will often have this really interesting exploration of ownership of his body and what exactly that means, especially given that his body is wielded exactly as a weapon by his country, whether it is to transport bioweapons or to be a tool for seduction, or do any number of things they've asked him to do, especially killing innocent people.

In my earlier post, I was going to suggest I find a certain kind of linearity to Elizabeth's character, whereas (as I've said before) there's a certain abstraction to Philip I want to understand better. I do wonder how much of this is intentional, and how much of this is just a flaw in the writing's design. In the Vox review for Travel Agents, one of the critics calls the moment Philip asks Elizabeth if she's crazy and tells her he loves her as really cathartic, and I realize it's because it's really the one thing Philip has made absolutely certain and concrete about himself.

This isn't to say that I don't have a good read of who Philip is because, as you said, we know the patterns of his personality, but we don't know where he comes from. Maybe one thing we can glean from Philip's flashback in the first episode of this season is that it isn't just about him killing, it's the fact that he has to kill in order to survive. Perhaps that is a key component of his character. I mean, there's that, but also what was his motivation in joining the KGB in the first place? Did he come from that place of honor and duty when he decided to join, or did he believe it was his only way out?

[sistermagpie]

12 hours ago, scartact said:

Maybe one thing we can glean from Philip's flashback in the first episode of this season is that it isn't just about him killing, it's the fact that he has to kill in order to survive. Perhaps that is a key component of his character. I mean, there's that, but also what was his motivation in joining the KGB in the first place? Did he come from that place of honor and duty when he decided to join, or did he believe it was his only way out?

Yeah, I remember one of the things that struck me back in S2 when he first started that story, even before getting to the part where he killed anyone, was that his life as a child was essentially exactly like his life now. He had something he was trying to move from one place to another, something necessary for his survival (and maybe someone else's too), he was looking around him for threats, spotted one, doubled back, lay in wait etc. So when he says he wants to be normal...this actually has always been his normal.

12 hours ago, scartact said:

In my earlier post, I was going to suggest I find a certain kind of linearity to Elizabeth's character, whereas (as I've said before) there's a certain abstraction to Philip I want to understand better. I do wonder how much of this is intentional, and how much of this is just a flaw in the writing's design. In the Vox review for Travel Agents, one of the critics calls the moment Philip asks Elizabeth if she's crazy and tells her he loves her as really cathartic, and I realize it's because it's really the one thing Philip has made absolutely certain and concrete about himself.

LInear is such a good word for it! It fits her personality too. She's so sure of who she is (or she thinks she is) you can totally see her developing in this straight line from the earliest flashbacks until now. You definitely get the sense that everything she does she considers in the context of her whole identity and life. For instance, Elizabeth has all these issues with Paige that directly reflect her experience with her own mother. Philip's priority is his family, yet we've never gotten the barest hint of what family he ever had before that. He seems very motivated by helping and protecting others--presumably that has something to do with why he joined the KGB but...we don't know!

[Umbelina]

Why does anyone think people were given their choice of jobs in the Soviet Union? 

Philip would do what he was told to do, there weren't options.  They only thing that would have got him out of that particular job was being crappy at it, not mastering English, showing instability, being unable to kill if needed, not being able to keep secrets, not looking the part, not being able to get and keep it up for sex with any man or woman they threw at him, old, fat, very young, whatever, because seduction was an important part of the job he would be doing.

One of my best former Russian friends wanted to be a sculptor, an artist.  Instead he was selected to be an MD, just because his parents were.  He HATED that job, hated medicine, but yes, he was good at it.  He wasn't even allowed to choose his specialty, he was slotted into one.

 

ETA, after he escaped to the USA, he became that artist, and he's very talented, was able to support himself doing what he loved.

Edited May 4, 2016 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

I think in the case of the show we've had several references to both Philip and Elizabeth having to choose this life. One could argue about the pressures on them or their ability to make an informed decision, but it seems they both definitely did choose it. And from what I've heard from one guy who was in the program, you were given that choice. You could drop out of the program (as he did) whenever and it wasn't held against you.

I could see why being an Illegal would be different than other professions, after all. If the person doesn't want to be an Illegal or a spy and you plop them down in the US forever they'd have a lot of opportunities to run, even with threats to their family etc.

[Umbelina]

They were teenagers, barely, in the hands of the supremely manipulative KGB.  Their only choice would be to fail at their training in some way.

ETA

I have absolutely no doubt that the KGB pretended as if it were a choice, fostering patriotism and pride in doing so.  To act like they were forcing them would be counter productive. 

Edited May 5, 2016 by Umbelina

[scartact]

I don't mean to be That Person who often sees things in terms of thematic constructs, but there is definitely s good point to be made about the agency of all these characters on the show. Everything from questions of Martha's culpability in light of how we perceive and treat her actions to whether or not Paige really does have a choice in joining the KGB (and if her parents even really did in the first place).

I was also going to point out how often Philip and Elizabeth are told by their handlers that they have a choice, and how their daughter has a choice, even the idea that Elizabeth could have rejected her first partner before Philip (though I'm with others on the skepticism of whether she would do this or not). But really, when the conditions for particular circumstances are created and available options continually narrow, how much of a choice is there really?

Thst being said, within context of the show they are still often told they have a choice, whether or not that is true. It's just that sometimes it's a choice between bad, horrible, and worst.

[sistermagpie]

41 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

They were teenagers, barely, in the hands of the supremely manipulative KGB.  Their only choice would be to fail at their training in some way.

I agree. But that's more what I mean about arguing over pressure or their ability to make an informed decision. The characters understand themselves as having chosen. They had some understanding for why they were doing it at the time that doesn't seem to be just that they were forced, it seems. So I think both of them do have ideas for why they do what they do that come from within, even if these were reasons they almost had to find in themselves. For instance, with Elizabeth we know about her background and I believe she thinks she chose this life...but also I don't see her having much of a chance to have done otherwise.

[Umbelina]

Philip may realize it was never his choice, but then he has a healthier skepticism than Elizabeth, the true believer.

They were contained and under total control by people teaching them how to be master manipulators.  I'm sure they were manipulated themselves as well.

[gwhh]

Elizabeth always demanding that Phillip shows that he loves her, the kids, and still believes in there "mission".

Phillip done (the big things, right off the top of my head) for her:

Killed her rapist and did not defect back to the USSR.

Did not go back to the USSR with Martha and told her she loved him!

Moved out when she told him

Risked being recalled to the soviet union for running point on her and Paige going to West Germany to meet soviet grandma, against the KGB orders!

Talked her out of telling the KGB center that it was NOT a military coup against Ronald R when he got shot! 

He did accused her of loving that black 70's black panther guy.   Than again she sent him to be gun down in the street instead of talking him into going to Cuba  

 

But what has Elizabeth done to prove those same things to Phillip:

Told the KGB he was wavering in there mission-which caused them to get kidnaped and tortured by KGB posing as FBI agents! 

Made him move out of the house. 

Accuse him of loving some of his targets and holding back in the bedroom for her because of that. 

Edited May 28, 2016 by gwhh

[scartact]

I kind of understand aspects of your point in that Philip more often has concrete actions that show how much he loves and cares for Elizabeth and their family, but I don't think I agree that Elizabeth demands Philip tangibly shows how he loves and cares for her and their family. I think Philip is more able to have these bigger moments because not only has he loved Elizabeth (and their family) longer, but he's also shown he will prioritize his family over their work if he is put in that position.

I do think it's something of a novelty for Elizabeth to see time and time again how important she is to Philip and how much he truly loves her. It sort of goes back to how she deals with her emotions; yet by loving Philip, she definitely has to confront these emotions in ways she's not used to and it really comes down to the fact that falling in love with Philip has greatly humanized her.

In fact, I actually think the episode Travel Agents exemplifies how Elizabeth shows her love to Philip in the form of her willingness to sacrifice for him, whether by allowing Martha to live and even her absolute sincerity in telling Philip that she would completely understand if the circumstances were different he would follow Martha to Russia. It's a different way of showing love, but I think it's one that Elizabeth is most familiar with and therefore uses.

[madam magpie]

How does Elizabeth show Philip that she loves him? Well...

Sex and physical intimacy are two of the main ways she does that. She was also accepting and protective of his secret son. And you know, when he needs to do something like break up a body and shove it into a suitcase, Elizabeth always shows up.

[gwhh]

23 hours ago, madam magpie said:

How does Elizabeth show Philip that she loves him? Well...

Sex and physical intimacy are two of the main ways she does that. She was also accepting and protective of his secret son. And you know, when he needs to do something like break up a body and shove it into a suitcase, Elizabeth always shows up.

I think your reading to much into that sex things. Friends with benefits also gives you the same thing. And she sure got jealous that Martha was getting something extra from Phillip that she was not getting in the bedroom. 

The body and grave work is just part of there spy job.   Nothing extra over there.  

Edited May 28, 2016 by gwhh

[madam magpie]

The body was a joke, though there's something to be said for comrades in arms. But I think it's been clear from the pilot that for Elizabeth, being present and intimate and trusting with anyone is the height of what she can give, and it's a struggle for her even when she wants desperately to give it. She was jealous of Martha because she was afraid another woman had a deep physical and emotional connection with her husband. She wanted to know what it was, how it worked, and why he liked it...which of course he didn't really...and she wanted to give it to him too. You honestly think she feels nothing for Philip and has sex with him in a "friends with benefits" type arrangement? And that the episode where he tries again and again not to show Elizabeth the kind of sex he has with Martha because he knows it will wound her was about her wanting something extra that Martha was getting?? That episode was about her trusting Philip so completely that she pushed to go somewhere she didn't control because she knew he would never hurt her, and then he did hurt her against his better judgement and at her own insistence. It had nothing to do with Martha, not really. 

I don't think we're watching the same show.

Edited May 28, 2016 by madam magpie