Small Talk: Firehouse Engine 51

[Lisin]

The Small Talk topic is for:

• Introductions
• Off-topic chatter
• Having virtual tea with forum buddies

This is NOT a topic for actual show discussion. When you want to talk about the show:

• Figure out the nature of the topic you want to talk about
• Look for an existing topic that matches or fits
• If there is NOT an existing topic that fits, CREATE ONE!

Examples of topics that populate show forums include (but by no means are limited to):

• Character topics
• Episode topics
• Season topics
• Spoiler topics
• Speculation topics
• In the Media topics
• Favourite X topics
• ...you get the idea

Happy trails beyond Small Talk! Edited April 1, 2014 by stacey
Updating Small Talk forum information

[Chas411]

Hi everyone, Chas here joining from TWOP. Can't wait to get to know everyone and talk about the show with y'all :)

[WendyCR72]

Hello, Chas and shiny new Chicago Fire thread! Let the snark continue (with a dash of Gabby hate from my end!)!

[Chas411]

Let the snark continue (with a dash of Gabby hate from my end!)!

Wendy, I think you and me are going to get along juuuuuust fine.

[WendyCR72]

Always nice to start off a new thread in harmony, I say!

[betsyboo]

ICYMI: http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/cc757ae20e/chicago-sanitation?_cc=__d___&_ccid=mbga6u.ny450a

 

TEE!

[Watermelon]

Who's the tall ginger though? He was yummy.

[GalvDuck]

I guess this goes here, because Grissom doesn't have or necessarily need his own thread and it's not really about him anyway.

For those who like Gary Cole, he appears in the move "____ Blockers."  When I say "appears," I mean every bit of him is in the movie.  Ironic, considering the title.  
 

[Tallulah7606]

So I’m new to Chicago fire, and I’m totally clueless as to how firehouses work. I get that the firefighters work 24/48 shifts, which would mean there are two other shifts of firefighters at station 51. So my question is this, if Boden is the chief, is he also working the two other crews shifts? Because surely a chief should be in residence every day, but he can’t work 24/7. So how does it work?? Is he one of three different battalion chiefs at 51?

[NJRadioGuy]

On 8/10/2019 at 6:56 PM, Tallulah7606 said:

So I’m new to Chicago fire, and I’m totally clueless as to how firehouses work. I get that the firefighters work 24/48 shifts, which would mean there are two other shifts of firefighters at station 51. So my question is this, if Boden is the chief, is he also working the two other crews shifts? Because surely a chief should be in residence every day, but he can’t work 24/7. So how does it work?? Is he one of three different battalion chiefs at 51?

You're absolutely correct. Now this depends on the department, but there's a lot more in play than you might realize. This post is going to be very long but it will detail the overall FD hierarchy in general. Chicago Fire (the TV show) cuts out a LOT for the sake of simplicity, story, tracking our heroes, budget, and so on. A fire in Chicago Fire-land gets E51 (which is mostly background, rarely speaking parts), Ladder 81, Rescue 3 and Battalion 25. In real-life, at a house fire or small shop fire, there would be at least 4 engines, 2 trucks (ladders), MAYBE a squad if there's a collapse or other specialized hazards, and a chief. Each "alarm" is basically a multiple of that. But for budget/TV sake, you'll never see it on the show. More on this below.

Boden's position is a Battalion Chief. In most major cities' fire departments, the battalion chief covers the response area of anywhere from 3 to 6 firehouses (YMMV and all that--remember, generalizations here). The BC is not necessarily the boss of the firehouse at which he's stationed. It's a position (and piece of apparatus) that has to be available 24/7. Boden would be on First Watch in our general discussion. He's also have a dedicated driver in many cases. Second and Third Watch would also have a batallion chief assigned to B25. Boden-2, and Boden-3, basically 🙂

But let's take a small step back. FDs have a hierarchy that generally goes something like this (again, broad strokes). Chief of the department, perhaps a Commissioner if that's in the city's structure. Various deputy and assistant chiefs are down from that, and they cover various aspects of the department's operations: fire suppression, personnel, procurement, training, hazmat and emergency ops, etc. They operate at what I call the City Hall Level, and generally won't show up on the fireground, unless it's a really big job.

After that you have District or Division chiefs. Their coverage would be a large portion of the city, or larger than the next level, the Battalion Chiefs. Down from there are the officers on each piece of apparatus (captain/LT/etc), then the FFs under them. 

So to put this into practice, pretend Fictional City is a perfect square. HQ is in the middle with all the white helmets. Divide that square into 4 equal segments (NW, NE, SW, SE). Each of those Divisions has a Division Chief/District chief. Divide each of those divisions into 4 for the Battalion Chiefs, then divide the BC's responsibility amongst 3, 4, 5, or 6 firehouses in their geographical area.

So now let's say Battalion 25 has four firehouses in his response area; 51, (rat-infested) 19, 66, and 58. Station 51 has E51, L81, R3 (we leave the ambulances out of this; they often have their own hierarchies and reports). Station 19 has E19 and L19, 66 station is Engine only, and 58 has E58 and E258. I'm pulling these companies out of my @$$, but you get the idea.

So here's a very real scenario. Pretend 51 is the southernmost-station in B25's response area. There's a decent size fire up north, and 25 will respond with some or all of 19, 55, and 58's companies and run that job. 51 then gets a run and would get a different BC, since "Boden" would be up north. That's something you never would see on the show. 

As you would expect, fire equipment is dispatched based on closeness to the address, and the apparatus responding first ("first due companies" in real-life parlance) will almost certainly include an engine or two and a ladder. The officer on the first-arriving company will size up the situation. If it's minor he may tell the chief he can stand down, he can handle it with "1 and 1" (one engine, one ladder company). Or he could see red stuff blowing out all the windows and civilians screaming about trapped victims and call for a deuce (2nd alarm) on the spot, before the BC arrives.

The BC will be the officer in charge on small/medium events, but once a 2nd alarm or above is called, several other BCs will respond, each with a different area of expertise or responsibility, plus a Division Chief to assume overall command of the fireground. He will direct each battalion chief. So we get a Big Job, 3rd alarm, 12 engine companies, 8 ladder companies and 4 BCs. Division 1 might delegate BC25 to fire suppression and rescue, B46 to protecting exposures, B14 to protecting opposite exposures, plus water and air supply, and B9 to accountability. Each of those BCs directs their reports to do the needed jobs. If more suppression is needed (i.e. more manpower or equipment to fight the actual fire), BC25 would request the needed resources from the Division chief, who in turn could re-assign an idle company, then call for another engine or two. The fire grows, more alarms get called, and by now, the assistant and deputy chiefs show up, and the division chiefs (more will be in place by now) will have their work divvied up. If it's Something Really Really Big, then the chief of the department will show up, usually with the elected pols to find the nearest news camera to mug for.

Again for the sake of budgets, a real 3rd alarm (a big but not not a huge fire, either) might require the show to rent (and decorate) 12 pumper trucks, 8 aerials and a plethora of specialty apparatus, along with at least 75 to 100 "extra" background actors. Maybe I could see this for a big Hollywood film but not for a TV show.

Edited September 2, 2019 by NJRadioGuy

[Tallulah7606]

On 9/2/2019 at 9:36 PM, NJRadioGuy said:

You're absolutely correct. Now this depends on the department, but there's a lot more in play than you might realize. This post is going to be very long but it will detail the overall FD hierarchy in general. Chicago Fire (the TV show) cuts out a LOT for the sake of simplicity, story, tracking our heroes, budget, and so on. A fire in Chicago Fire-land gets E51 (which is mostly background, rarely speaking parts), Ladder 81, Rescue 3 and Battalion 25. In real-life, at a house fire or small shop fire, there would be at least 4 engines, 2 trucks (ladders), MAYBE a squad if there's a collapse or other specialized hazards, and a chief. Each "alarm" is basically a multiple of that. But for budget/TV sake, you'll never see it on the show. More on this below.

Boden's position is a Battalion Chief. In most major cities' fire departments, the battalion chief covers the response area of anywhere from 3 to 6 firehouses (YMMV and all that--remember, generalizations here). The BC is not necessarily the boss of the firehouse at which he's stationed. It's a position (and piece of apparatus) that has to be available 24/7. Boden would be on First Watch in our general discussion. He's also have a dedicated driver in many cases. Second and Third Watch would also have a batallion chief assigned to B25. Boden-2, and Boden-3, basically 🙂

But let's take a small step back. FDs have a hierarchy that generally goes something like this (again, broad strokes). Chief of the department, perhaps a Commissioner if that's in the city's structure. Various deputy and assistant chiefs are down from that, and they cover various aspects of the department's operations: fire suppression, personnel, procurement, training, hazmat and emergency ops, etc. They operate at what I call the City Hall Level, and generally won't show up on the fireground, unless it's a really big job.

After that you have District or Division chiefs. Their coverage would be a large portion of the city, or larger than the next level, the Battalion Chiefs. Down from there are the officers on each piece of apparatus (captain/LT/etc), then the FFs under them. 

So to put this into practice, pretend Fictional City is a perfect square. HQ is in the middle with all the white helmets. Divide that square into 4 equal segments (NW, NE, SW, SE). Each of those Divisions has a Division Chief/District chief. Divide each of those divisions into 4 for the Battalion Chiefs, then divide the BC's responsibility amongst 3, 4, 5, or 6 firehouses in their geographical area.

So now let's say Battalion 25 has four firehouses in his response area; 51, (rat-infested) 19, 66, and 58. Station 51 has E51, L81, R3 (we leave the ambulances out of this; they often have their own hierarchies and reports). Station 19 has E19 and L19, 66 station is Engine only, and 58 has E58 and E258. I'm pulling these companies out of my @$$, but you get the idea.

So here's a very real scenario. Pretend 51 is the southernmost-station in B25's response area. There's a decent size fire up north, and 25 will respond with some or all of 19, 55, and 58's companies and run that job. 51 then gets a run and would get a different BC, since "Boden" would be up north. That's something you never would see on the show. 

As you would expect, fire equipment is dispatched based on closeness to the address, and the apparatus responding first ("first due companies" in real-life parlance) will almost certainly include an engine or two and a ladder. The officer on the first-arriving company will size up the situation. If it's minor he may tell the chief he can stand down, he can handle it with "1 and 1" (one engine, one ladder company). Or he could see red stuff blowing out all the windows and civilians screaming about trapped victims and call for a deuce (2nd alarm) on the spot, before the BC arrives.

The BC will be the officer in charge on small/medium events, but once a 2nd alarm or above is called, several other BCs will respond, each with a different area of expertise or responsibility, plus a Division Chief to assume overall command of the fireground. He will direct each battalion chief. So we get a Big Job, 3rd alarm, 12 engine companies, 8 ladder companies and 4 BCs. Division 1 might delegate BC25 to fire suppression and rescue, B46 to protecting exposures, B14 to protecting opposite exposures, plus water and air supply, and B9 to accountability. Each of those BCs directs their reports to do the needed jobs. If more suppression is needed (i.e. more manpower or equipment to fight the actual fire), BC25 would request the needed resources from the Division chief, who in turn could re-assign an idle company, then call for another engine or two. The fire grows, more alarms get called, and by now, the assistant and deputy chiefs show up, and the division chiefs (more will be in place by now) will have their work divvied up. If it's Something Really Really Big, then the chief of the department will show up, usually with the elected pols to find the nearest news camera to mug for.

Again for the sake of budgets, a real 3rd alarm (a big but not not a huge fire, either) might require the show to rent (and decorate) 12 pumper trucks, 8 aerials and a plethora of specialty apparatus, along with at least 75 to 100 "extra" background actors. Maybe I could see this for a big Hollywood film but not for a TV show.

Wow!!! Thank you! (I’m one of those really awkward types that like to understand exactly what I’m watching in real terms 😂) that explanation is above and beyond what I hoped to get. You explained it perfectly, thank you!! 

[NJRadioGuy]

22 hours ago, Tallulah7606 said:

Wow!!! Thank you! (I’m one of those really awkward types that like to understand exactly what I’m watching in real terms 😂) that explanation is above and beyond what I hoped to get. You explained it perfectly, thank you!! 

Glad to help. Again, this is an extremely high-level and very generalized view but I'd say most major departments in the US and Canada function similarly. The upshot is incident command is handled by increasingly senior officers as the severity of the call increases. As more pieces of apparatus are called, more chiefs ("white helmets") arrive, command protocols are initiated and followed and resources are allocated. So there would always a "Battalion Chief 25" to use our beloved (?) show's nomenclature, but Wallace Boden would not always be the one responding.

For the sake of other readers, I should probably explain something even more fundamental. The types of apparatus do very specialized jobs, both in the show, and in real life. There are two primary kinds: Engines (also known as pumpers in Canadian parlance) do exactly what you'd expect: Put the wet stuff on the red stuff. They suck water out of hydrants or other water sources, increase and control it's pressure, have hose lines attached and its members go in to fight the fire. Nozzleman gets the glory, backup makes sure the hose is free and clear, takes the hydrant in many cases to feed the pump; the engineer drives the rig and operates the pump typically, and the officer is the commander. In the show, Engine 51 is presently commanded by Hermann, but until last season it was seen and not heard from. All the crew were background actors at the time (and most were real-life CFD FFs).

The other main type of apparatus is the Ladder company (Casey's rig), also known as a "Hook and Ladder," Truck company, or an Aerial in Canadian-speak. They usually don't have hose lines, but will take water from an engine, pipe it up to the top of the ladder (or tower basket in the case of a tower ladder) for use in an External Attack--a fire too dangerous to fight from the inside and the chiefs decide to "surround and drown." They are either front-mount, rear mount (where on the truck the base of the extending ladder is placed) or a tractor-trailer style tiller, with a second "driver" in the back. IMHO, this is the single coolest job on Planet Earth. Trucks companies will open holes in the roof of a fire building to vent the hot gasses, ventilate to eject the smoke after the fire has been knocked down, overhaul (pull down walls/ceilings along with an engine company to look for lingering hot spots that need to be extinguished), perform forced entry with a hammer and a Haligan tool (NO, there's no such thing as a Slamigan™ in real life). Truck companies also throw ground ladders up, perform rescue operations in place of or alongside Heavy Rescue companies, extricate car wreck patients along with the Engine--often the Hurst Tool/"Jaws of Life" are on the Truck. There will also be dozens of specialized pieces of apparatus, usually consisting of one or more heavy rescues (Severide's rig) for detailed technical rescues, building collapses, train wrecks, plane crashes/etc, Hazmat units, foam units, airport crash tenders, canteens (to offer refreshments to crews on a huge job), lighting units, mask service units, air supply, rural departments have water tankers where there are no hydrants, and the list goes on.

Since in the real world, most FD toneouts are for MVAs (motor vehicle accidents) or sick persons, quite often departments require every FF to be a trained in Basic Life Support, and many are actual paramedics, with a lot of crossover to the city/town's EMS. In my own town our FD and BLS ambulance is 100% volunteer, and often with extended response times during working hours, so as a result we have a number of Basic and Advanced Life Support (Paramedic) trained cops as well. So if someone's ticker goes haywire and PD arrives first, they can start certain IVs, defibrilate, perform CPR, some can even intubate while waiting for dedicated (and paid) ALS to arrive. There aren't any nationwide hard and fast rules here, and in general terms, for every working fire call toned out there are probably 50-100 MVAs, overdoses, altered mental statuses, sick persons, chest pain calls, lockouts, seniors fallen and can't get up, the dreaded "bariatric lift assist" and so on. The glamourous life of a firefighter, indeed 🙂

[Guildford]

1 hour ago, NJRadioGuy said:

 The glamourous life of a firefighter, indeed 🙂

Ha, so true....my mate who is a firey often talks about some of the calls they get, people (men) with one particular body part stuck in place it shouldn't be, cat's up chinmeys, a crow stuck in a tree and making a noise, entry to buildings where someone hasn't been seen for days and there is a strange smell....also the random calls they get from people who call 000 (911) because they have gone away and someone needs to feed their cat. 

Yes the life a fire fighter.

Edited September 11, 2019 by Guildford
.

[Tallulah7606]

10 hours ago, NJRadioGuy said:

In the show, Engine 51 is presently commanded by Hermann, but until last season it was seen and not heard from. All the crew were background actors at the time (and most were real-life CFD FFs).

Wait, so there’s a third fire engine in firehouse 51?? 

We haven’t had season 7 yet in the UK, I assumed Hermann was going to take Caseys spot on truck-and I also assumed ‘truck’ simply meant normal fire engine with water supply and ladders. I didn’t realise they had a whole different vehicle for the purpose of water. 

It’s completely different in the UK. We don’t have engine, truck and squad, nor do we have firehouse paramedics. We have pump and pump ladder and they respond to each call as a multi disciplined unit, the ambulance, if necessary, comes from a separate ambulance station. I’m not so sure on the more senior roles, but I know the in house ones (lietentant, captain) work the same way. 

Again, thank you for the explanation, it helps to make sense of what I’m watching 

[NJRadioGuy]

8 hours ago, Guildford said:

Ha, so true....my mate who is a firey often talks about some of the calls they get, people (men) with one particular body part stuck in place it shouldn't be, cat's up chinmeys, a crow stuck in a tree and making a noise, entry to buildings where someone hasn't been seen for days and there is a strange smell....also the random calls they get from people who call 000 (911) because they have gone away and someone needs to feed their cat. 

Yes the life a fire fighter.

Yup. There's a lot of the job that wouldn't make for good television or would never make it past network censors.  

In rough and tumble neighborhoods like the one station 51 is located in, every other run would probably be an O.D. but they'd never show that. And you ever notice how every single residence that Chicago PD and Fire (the TV shows) enter are all at least upper-middle class, well decorated and furnished? Even the baddies. That is most definitely *not* the case in real-life.

What's frustrating about this show to me (and anybody who has any knowledge of emergency services) is that there are so many great calls they could portray, but they go for cheap bullshit highschool-level drama every time. I'm fine with a bit of that, but they need to take a bigger page from the 1970s show Emergency! that took real-life calls and brought them to life onscreen. Their B-stories were utter garbage but the runs were great and kept tens of millions of viewers watching for seven years. That one ancient and often-rerun TV show has brought more young men and women into the fire service than any one other source. Even today!

1 minute ago, Tallulah7606 said:

Wait, so there’s a third fire engine in firehouse 51?? 

We haven’t had season 7 yet in the UK, I assumed Hermann was going to take Caseys spot on truck-and I also assumed ‘truck’ simply meant normal fire engine with water supply and ladders. I didn’t realise they had a whole different vehicle for the purpose of water. 

It’s completely different in the UK. We don’t have engine, truck and squad, nor do we have firehouse paramedics. We have pump and pump ladder and they respond to each call as a multi disciplined unit, the ambulance, if necessary, comes from a separate ambulance station. I’m not so sure on the more senior roles, but I know the in house ones (lietentant, captain) work the same way. 

Again, thank you for the explanation, it helps to make sense of what I’m watching 

Yes, in "Station 51" there is Engine 51, Truck 81, Rescue 3, Ambulance 61 and Battalion 25. 

But it's not just about water. Especially in the U.S., where most houses are made of wood, building codes are often a suggestion or ignored entirely, building integrity is a bigger problem than in Europe. The laws of physics and thermodynamics remain the same (vent the building, control airflow, extinguish the fire, overhaul the building) but because British and European structures are generally made of brick and masonry it's usually just the case of the internal walls and contents going up, while the shell remains fully intact. It's much easier to fight a fire when you know the building isn't going to collapse on top of you. Firefighting tactics are also extremely different in the UK/Europe than in many parts of the U.S. In The Netherlands and Germany they'll have a charged reel line inside in seconds after arrival using tank water, while in the U.S. it seems many departments' SOP is to take a hydrant, pull one or two crosslays, charge the lines and in general take 5 minutes or so before water goes on. It's truly frightening over here in places and at times. And the ones that kill me are videos I've seen of engines arriving on scene at a serious working fire and the crews haven't gotten their SCBA gear on enroute. So they need to mask up, size up the scene, lay and charge lines and then go in. 

Plus high-rises there are a rarity, so having multiple 100+ foot tower ladder trucks would be a waste of money. Grenfell exposed that weakness in a big way. I think London had or has 3 or 4 tower ladders for the entire city. Nobody ever expected an entire apartment building to combust until it did. At the time, the UK's fire codes allowed only one central staircase (read "Chimney") and that cladding. It was all unthinkable since it had never happened before.

In the UK and Europe I know it's very, very different in terms of apparatus, or as they call them, appliances. When we here on this side of the Atlantic have that discussion, it always and invariably involves a mock dispatch of "Dispatch, send us three toasters and a blender to this address, and keep the dishwasher on standby." And you don't have a second alarm or third alarm, but rather "make pumps" calls, so if they need 8 appliances to fight a working fire, after the initial response, when it becomes a known conflagration, the incident commander will call the control room for "make pumps 8". Before the London Fire Brigade switched over to the unmonitorable TETRA radio system a decade or so ago I used to listen to their communications when I was over there. Precise, militaristic communications is how I'd describe it. It was also extremely quiet most of the time for a city that big. In contrast, go on Broadcastify and listen to the five separate borough dispatch channels for the FDNY, or the two dispatch channels for Chicago (Main (north side) and Englewood (south side)). VERRRRRY different comms there!

[Tallulah7606]

2 hours ago, NJRadioGuy said:

When we here on this side of the Atlantic have that discussion, it always and invariably involves a mock dispatch of "Dispatch, send us three toasters and a blender to this address, and keep the dishwasher on standby."

😂😂 genuinely laughed out loud at this. 

Are you a firefighter yourself then? If so, thank you for all that you do 

[NJRadioGuy]

Lots of friends in the service (and PD and EMS) but I'm a radio guy myself, hence my username.

Edited September 12, 2019 by NJRadioGuy

[Dowel Jones]

On 9/10/2019 at 10:49 PM, NJRadioGuy said:

(NO, there's no such thing as a Slamigan™ in real life).

Thank you for the shout out to the Slamigan; the most humorous story arc of that season. Also thanks for the detail in your description of FD structure.  It pretty much fits what I worked with out here in California, too.  One thing that I would add to your note is that all FDs have a specific command structure in place at all times.  Everyone knows who they work for, and there is a very strict chain of command, despite what the horrifically bad  Station 19 showed.  So people should not get the wrong idea of what goes on during an operation, from minor to disastrous. 

[NJRadioGuy]

The one that gets me is the Fox show 9-1-1. They have two pieces of apparatus in the bay; Engine 118 and Truck 118. OK, that's fair and is a very common thing to see. EXCEPT the crew responds in whichever vehicle they want! THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN. Sorry, but if you're an engineman you don't suddenly become a truckee. The skill sets are entirely different. I get that they don't want an extra 4 or 5 cast members, but seriously, NO. Keep it a one-rig station plus an ambo if you want. I'd be good with that. CF is far better in that regard.

But as horrible as that show is for procedure, they do some very interesting runs, often recreated from real incidents (and I wish CF would do more of that). 9-1-1 is train wreck in many ways, but I still love watching it, plus they do what they can to give service to the call takers. That's one job that you rarely see portrayed on TV and one of the toughest jobs you can imagine.

As for command structures, in many (most?) cases, there's no actual "boss" of the station, in the way Boden is portrayed in C.F. The station is the home for one, two, three, or more distinct companies, each with their own shift commander or overall company commander. He or she is a trained officer and the leader of the firefighters assigned to that apparatus. If you're a qualified driver on Engine 123 you remain a driver, even if you're transferred to another company. Or you're a qualified relief man/floater/whatever. Joe at Engine 123 needs three days off; Bob gets the call to report to E123 at 0600 for three shifts, then back to the floater pool.

HQ makes the personnel decisions, not the BC or DC. If a guy's a complete fuck-up the officer in charge of his company calls HQ and tells them what's going on, not the BC, although MAYBE he'd be involved too. But for our show, I'll forgive this since average viewers need to see a boss do boss things as part of the narrative.