Relationships: Speed Dating

[phoenics]

I'm waiting and seeing.

[Starry]

@Velocity23 it seems you misunderstood the point of my comment. All I am saying is that the current Flash writers are so uninterested in writing romance that they have stopped shipbaiting Barry with other women when they could have done so using AU versions of the characters. IMO that would have happened if they didn't want to write for WestAllen because they are an interracial couple and not because it's romance in general that bores them.

 

1 hour ago, Velocity23 said:

Correct me if i am wrong but Wallace was responsible in writing the Flash part of Elseworlds crossover.

Wallace didn't come up with the Elseworlds plot though. He wasn't involved in the Arrow episode and shipbaiting Iris with someone who isn't Barry ( especially when the someone is another white man ) is not the same as shipbaiting Barry with someone who isn't Iris. That's why I said that racism isn't IMO the number one reason why we are getting less WestAllen content. Unless you are saying that racism/misogynoir is what made Wallace write Iris as the black doting wife whose affections are being rebuffed by a white man. I don't understand how your comment relates to mine.

 

1 hour ago, Velocity23 said:

There is no Barry in agony in how to get his wife back. There are no desperate actions of a man that will do anything to reunite with his wife.

Because Barry doesn't know his wife is trapped. Hopefully he finds out in the next episode and we can get some movement on that front.

 

1 hour ago, adora721 said:

We can't yet judge with Ralph and Sue because there hasn't been enough content for them yet. We'll have to wait to see how they are written once an actual romance occurs between them. It's far too early to even bring Ralph and Sue into this discussion.

It's early but keep in mind that they wasted no time in making Ralph the star of season 4 and Nora the star of season 5. I don't think they are that interested in Sue but time will tell.

 

1 hour ago, adora721 said:

As for why do it now? It's not just now. This has been going on for quite some time. Like I said, I originally thought this lack of romance had to do with the previous showrunners, but with Eric, it's become clear that the mandate comes from higher up. I'm not sure if it's Berlanti or Johns. It could be WB.

But what I am saying is that it's worse now. If the mandate came from Berlanti, Johns or WB why did we get more content in seasons 1-3? Because I refuse to believe AJK went against the mandate and decided to give us more WestAllen.

[adora721]

1 hour ago, Starry said:

But what I am saying is that it's worse now. If the mandate came from Berlanti, Johns or WB why did we get more content in seasons 1-3? Because I refuse to believe AJK went against the mandate and decided to give us more WestAllen.

As I said earlier, one of the possible reasons for the lack of WestAllen romance is catering to the more negative (bigoted) factions of the fandom who have never stopped complaining after all these years. They seem to have endless reserves of bile.

Marvel has the clout and massive financial successes to push back on any negativity from any fans who might not like the more progressive aspects of the MCU. WB has less leverage than Marvel and is trying to regain its footing after dismal failures like "Justice League," "Shazam," and, more recently, "Birds of Prey." Sure, "Wonder Woman" and "Aquaman" did well ("Suicide Squad" did fairly well), but those wins are only a few among a lot of financial losses; more importantly, those wins did not help the movies that came after.

The only consistent win for the WB is the DCTV universe, and I'm sure they're willing to do almost anything to retain those TV fans, even if it means putting the kibosh on romantic WestAllen. After all, WB hopes those TV fans will help power the DECU movies to come and their streaming revenue.

In 2014, WB had the confidence to take the risk of making Iris West a Black woman and did pretty well at the IR romance in the early seasons. Years later, WB's courage or willingness to take risks is fading under the weight of so many financial losses and a landscape in which pushback against progressive themes is on the rise. Their resolve seems to be wilting from its earlier strength in earlier seasons to promote WestAllen's romantic status so as not to "offend" certain fans. Just to be clear, the Flash is still the highest rated CW show and the most watched on streaming. Therefore, placating the Flash fans would be a higher priority than making "Batwoman," "LoT," or even "Supergirl" fans happy. 

After all, WB's goal is to make money. We'll see if the Flash movie retains the Black actress for Iris West and how she and their relationship are portrayed in the DCEU movie.

Edited March 19, 2020 by adora721

[Velocity23]

 

This idea that Wallace or Flash writers had no say in the writing for the crossover is ridicilous. They might have gotten pointers what to include.  But each show had their own writers that worked all the details out. Its why they brought in the lightning rod comment. The idea was to switch Barry and Oliver and the lives they live. That also meant criss-crossing the relationship they are in. Nothing wrong with doing that but the Flash writers forgot how to give a good conclusion to the Elseworld shannanigans in their own episode. Guggenheim made sure Oliver and Felicity got that in the Arrow episode. 

I think the reason you getting less WA is because they spend some of the time on giving Iris and Barry something of a solo storyline away from each other. It will be merged at some point but i dont think the way they approached it was good. But they seem to have wanted that this whole storyline ends in some difficulties for WA. So the only angst you will get is once Iris is out. When you could have gotten all this suspense and angst all the way through. You will get it once its all wrapped up and probably done in an episode. 

Now combine that with the wishes of your lead to not be constantly the focus of the episodes something has to give. 

[Starry]

50 minutes ago, Velocity23 said:

This idea that Wallace or Flash writers had no say in the writing for the crossover is ridicilous.

What's ridiculous about assuming that someone who at the time wasn't even the Flash showrunner didn't come up with the Elseworlds plot? Guggenheim was the one in charge of the crossover. I don't get why it's absurd for me to believe that it wasn't Wallace's idea to have Barry and Oliver switch lives and relationships. Even if Wallace came up with the lightning rod comments and wrote Iris to be overly affectionate towards Oliver he still wasn't the one who decided it would be a good idea to shipbait WestQueen and Barricity in some sort of AU scenario.

 

56 minutes ago, Velocity23 said:

I think the reason you getting less WA is because they spend some of the time on giving Iris and Barry something of a solo storyline away from each other.

What they are doing is use Iris to introduce other characters and plots like Allegra, Nash and the Carver investigation only to sideline her off screen/in a mirror two seconds later. That's not a solo storyline.

The one who's getting the solo storyline is the clone Eva controls. Iris' story is DOA.

[Trini]

35 minutes ago, adora721 said:

As I said earlier, one of the possible reasons for the lack of WestAllen romance is catering to the more negative (bigoted) factions of the fandom who have never stopped complaining after all these years. They seem to have endless reserves of bile.

This makes no sense to me. They're not writing for a vocal minority that hate the show. (And if they don't like things but are still watching after 6 seasons, why change anything at all?)

 

42 minutes ago, adora721 said:

The only consistent win for the WB is the DCTV universe, and I'm sure they're willing to do almost anything to retain those TV fans, even if it means putting the kibosh on romantic WestAllen. After all, WB hopes those TV fans will help power the DECU movies to come and their streaming revenue.

This makes even less sense, since the movies make much more money and reach much more people than the TV shows.

I doubt WB cares so much about the details of their most popular show to "mandate" the subduing of one of the things that actually works. TPTB like the TV version of Barry & Iris, which is why the movie version and the mass market comic version resemble them.

Going back to the start of this discussion about why there's less WestAllen; I just don't think it's a top-down conspiracy. I think it falls much closer to home. It just isn't a priority for these writers, other elements are more interesting. Whether they should be  is a legit question. The story would definitely be richer if the writers had more focus on how the mirror arc was affecting both Barry and Iris.

However, I think there have been some good WestAllen moments, so it's not like it's absent in 6B.

[adora721]

On 3/19/2020 at 2:40 PM, Trini said:

This makes even less sense, since the movies make much more money and reach much more people than the TV shows.

 

Warner Brothers is aiming to compete with streaming services like Netflix with its own streaming service called HBOMax, which hasn't launched yet. To give you the potential revenue for a streaming service, Netflix makes $950 million per month from subscriptions alone. "Yes, Netflix rakes in nearly $1 billion every single month, putting their annual total revenue above $11 billion." Please read the various financial grosses of recent WB movies. The article was written before the dismal returns of "Birds of Prey." If WB is successful, their streaming service might be like making one "Joker" movie per month.  

Netflix has, ... 167 million subscribers worldwide and 60 million in the US. " What CW TV show has an audience of 60 million viewers? And clearly not enough people are going to WB movies in the theaters because the box office returns are abysmal. WB has to convince its current audience to sign up for yet another subcription service in May 2020.  Therefore, it's smart business sense to please the CW TV show audience, especially the audience of its most successful show, The Flash.

 

On 3/19/2020 at 2:40 PM, Trini said:

This makes no sense to me. They're not writing for a vocal minority that hate the show. (And if they don't like things but are still watching after 6 seasons, why change anything at all?)

 

They are writing to keep as many eyes on their show as possible, which means feeding as much of the audience as possible, even if it doesn't fully satisfy each faction. Here we are complaining and yet we continue to watch. So, it makes sense that the haters who still enjoy the show despite WestAllen also continue to watch.

 

On 3/19/2020 at 2:40 PM, Trini said:

I doubt WB cares so much about the details of their most popular show to "mandate" the subduing of one of the things that actually works. TPTB like the TV version of Barry & Iris, which is why the movie version and the mass market comic version resemble them.

TPTB liking WestAllen doesn't mean they don't want to make money by making as much of the audience happy as possible. Some fans complained about too much WestAllen romance, and therefore, they write a minimal amount of romance for the WestAllen shippers. Some fans complained that they miss OTF, and so they write a few OTF episodes, and they have written (though not anymore) some SB shipbaiting scenes for those outliers.  Fans complained about Iris being in Star Labs and not having her own reporter story, so they wrote that (finally). 

There are people at each studio who are highly paid to dig into the details of each show, movie, and fandom. Consider what happened when Danai Gurira's name was absent from the movie poster for "Avengers: Endgame". Fans complained online and, voila, the poster was redone. Now, based on your logic, the detail of her missing name shouldn't have mattered to the studio, especially since Danai's picture was on the poster. However, that detail mattered to the fans and therefore, it mattered to someone at Marvel to correct the problem. Since WB wants to compete with Marvel, I suspect they're paying someone a lot of money to mind the details also.

Then there was the fan backlash over the design of Sonic the Hedgehog; the director and Paramount redesigned Sonic because of the fans. "When it came to Sonic, Paramount took drastic measures to redress audience expectations, pushing the film’s release back by nearly a year and giving the go-ahead to an expensive, soup-to-nuts retrofitting of the character’s biodynamics in a bid to silence those who saw the trailer as a “200 mph slap in the face.”

ETA: Here's a video of Robert Downey Jr mentioning that Marvel has really listened to the fans and its audience; starts at 1:34. If WB wants to replicate any of Marvel's success, they're gonna try to do likewise, IMO.

 

Edited March 21, 2020 by adora721
Added video link

[Trini]

That's a lot of assumptions. Yes, the parent company wants to make money. No, I don't think that translates into less WestAllen.

[phoenics]

Well, in S3 I do remember there was a LOT of hateful backlash at WestAllen and complaints of too much romance.  

Ever since then, the romance has pretty much died on the show.  And then the haters complained of not enough OTF and now OTF dominated S6A and instead of fixing that with centering around WestAllen, the show just gave us Team Citizen like that's an answer, with WetAllen barely happening.  The show doesn't even need the loft to be honest, it's not like the show acts like Barry and Iris are even married except in "very special episodes".  Even the thing that made Joe suspicious amounted to Iris not propping Barry up while Barry has barely even paid attention to her in several episodes, except episode 11 when he thought something was wrong.

Something is definitely wrong.  Even if they aren't the focus, writers or directors should be adding in moments where they at least touch one another.  And in situations with the team, they should gravitate toward one another.  In previous seasons, especially season 3, this happened.

Now?  Nothing.

 

[adora721]

1 hour ago, Trini said:

That's a lot of assumptions. Yes, the parent company wants to make money. No, I don't think that translates into less WestAllen.

Well, I do prefer assumptions based on some evidence. Thanks for the debate.

[BeautifulFlower]

I said a long time ago on here that we had these same complaints last season. Who was showrunner last season? Todd Helbing.

I know people want season 3 WestAllen back, but let's talk about that. Season 3 was their first season as a couple. So it makes sense that was the season with a lot of romantic moments between them. Season 4 didn't have a lot of romance compared to season 3.

I do agree with the ones that they're just not interested in the romance. It's not like that only applies to WestAllen. Has Joe and Cecile even shared a kiss this season? We barely see Cisco and Kamilla. No matter who it is, these writers care about the other stuff more.

[adora721]

1 hour ago, BeautifulFlower said:

I do agree with the ones that they're just not interested in the romance. It's not like that only applies to WestAllen. Has Joe and Cecile even shared a kiss this season? We barely see Cisco and Kamilla. No matter who it is, these writers care about the other stuff more.

First, the main OTP couple should always be heavy on romance. Like I said in another thread, CW shows are very much invested in their main OTPs having a romantic thread season after season. Why is WestAllen different? 

Second, the writers having no interest implies that it's the writers that make the decision. No; it's not the writers who get to decide what topics, arcs, or plots develop on the show. Its the showrunner and also producers who determine these things and the writers write accordingly.  The writers don't control the show. They write what they are told to write. Ironically, some writers have mentioned adding WestAllen romantic content, but were told to remove it by the previous showrunners. So, the writers know that an OTP should have romantic content, but were overruled.

Consider how Candice wanted to show her natural hair on the show for years. She said she asked the showrunners not the writers to write a scene for it. It was the showrunner, Eric, who told the writers to write a scene that made sense for Iris to wear her natural hair. It's the same with adding reference to Black dishes/soul foods in the premiere episode. The showrunner told the writers to mention those.

Edited March 20, 2020 by adora721

[phoenics]

25 minutes ago, BeautifulFlower said:

I said a long time ago on here that we had these same complaints last season. Who was showrunner last season? Todd Helbing.

I know people want season 3 WestAllen back, but let's talk about that. Season 3 was their first season as a couple. So it makes sense that was the season with a lot of romantic moments between them. Season 4 didn't have a lot of romance compared to season 3.

I do agree with the ones that they're just not interested in the romance. It's not like that only applies to WestAllen. Has Joe and Cecile even shared a kiss this season? We barely see Cisco and Kamilla. No matter who it is, these writers care about the other stuff more.

Perhaps you are right.  It's still poor writing. It would be one thing if the show didn't use storylines that SHOULD include better romance/angst with its leads, but this show has burned through CRISIS and now this mirror storyline and BOTH should have REALLY shown a lot more closeness with WestAllen.

Wallace clearly cares about other stuff more - because he's doing a LOT of telling instead of SHOWING in his storytelling.  It's just bad writing.  The mess with Wally apparently reaching out to Barry all this time?  We never saw it.  Iris claiming she and Barry spent all that time together before Crisis?  THE LIES!!!! It never happened onscreen.  Instead, we got saddled with ridiculous side plots like KF working to fix Allegra up with some guy we never met?  WTF?! And other side stories with ZERO impact on the overall season... almost like they are forced to give these regulars screentime, but don't know how to tie them into the main plot.

But the show can't give us better and more WestAllen?  The show is bloated with too many characters, tbh.

Anyway - that snippet from Wallace just makes me think that even Iris getting out of the mirror (if she even does) won't even really be about her in the end.  Just like when she stabbed herself in the shoulder, she got one shocked "Iris!" from Barry that she immediately brushed off and we heard nothing about it since.

I do worry something will happen to Joe.

 

 

[ursula]

3 hours ago, adora721 said:

Second, the writers having no interest implies that it's the writers that make the decision. No; it's not the writers who get to decide what topics, arcs, or plots develop on the show. Its the showrunner and also producers who determine these things and the writers write accordingly.  The writers don't control the show. They write what they are told to write. Ironically, some writers have mentioned adding WestAllen romantic content, but were told to remove it by the previous showrunners. So, the writers know that an OTP should have romantic content, but were overruled.

This.

A couple of freelance writers have been vocal at how much OTP content were nonsensically edited out of their submitted script.

This shit is deliberate and we need to stop pretending that it’s not.

[ursula]

3 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

I know people want season 3 WestAllen back

Season 3 WA? The season where a version of Barry wanted to kill Iris to save himself? Where her death was used to focus on everyone but her? Where WA proposal was botched and Iris got dumped in the middle of a period where her life was in danger because it was botched? Where Killer Frost’s “origin story” took center stage and no one dealt with the repercussions of her conspiring to murder Iris, and actually killing Harry? Where we had to watch Caitlin be coddled and petted through her villain arc while Iris didn’t even get an embrace after Barry returned from a future where she was dead?

 

Which people want season 3 WA back because I doubt very much any of them are Iris or WA fans.

[Trini]

On 3/19/2020 at 10:12 PM, phoenics said:

Perhaps you are right.  It's still poor writing.

No argument there. There are a several things the show SHOULD be, but it's not. For me there are enough good and interesting elements so I'm still here.
 

On 3/19/2020 at 9:24 PM, BeautifulFlower said:

I do agree with the ones that they're just not interested in the romance. It's not like that only applies to WestAllen. Has Joe and Cecile even shared a kiss this season? We barely see Cisco and Kamilla. No matter who it is, these writers care about the other stuff more.

Speaking of relationships not WestAllen - it's dumb that we haven't gotten more of Cisco/Kamilla when half the point of her character was to show Cisco living a "normal" life.

C'mon; they should give us a double date, even if it turns into a meta investigation ('cause they love interrupting things).
 

On 3/20/2020 at 1:21 AM, ursula said:

Which people want season 3 WA back because I doubt very much any of them are Iris or WA fans.

I assume they mean the good, romantic WestAllen stuff scenes (which there was a lot of) and not the bad things.

Edited March 23, 2020 by Trini

[Trini]

Might be of interest to this thread:

 

[phoenics]

I'm just glad someone called this out and even gladder CP retweeted it.  Not because of her response, but because I hope the writers see how upsetting this storyline is and that they are botching it.

I wouldn't mind Iris being stuck in the mirror if it felt like there were some real stakes to her relationship with Barry.  In the end, it feels like it's not going to matter that Barry hasn't figured this out (and may not figure it out before she gets out of the mirror).  It's almost like they want Iris to be the foil to Eva's rage.  Eva now hates her husband and is angry at how he abandoned her in the mirror.  Iris is all "Barry always finds me" and will "keep the faith" even IF Barry doesn't even know she's trapped in there and will carry on just fine with a copy of her that is barely trying at this point AND likely sleeping with her too.

Iris isn't going to be ALLOWED to be angry with Barry or for there to be any stakes with their relationship.  The reason Iris is trapped in there is for WestAllen to serve as the foil to Carver/Eva.

9 hours ago, ursula said:

Which people want season 3 WA back because I doubt very much any of them are Iris or WA fans.

Oh?

I consider myself a huge Iris/WA fan and I do wish we got the romantic WA from S3 back.  At least that WA couple had real stakes added to their relationship from the Savitar threat and moments where Iris was the focus of that AND their love was the focus of that.  Yes, S3 had some bad stuff in it for Iris - but the romance was there.  And they carried that romance in scenes where WA wasn't even the focus - the two characters were still connected - you felt they were in love.  In Crisis, it felt like this really didn't impact WA at all because we only got two scenes illustrating their angst - one in episode 2 I think and then in the Crisis episode.  Everywhere else, it was like "no big deal" for Iris/WA and Iris was portrayed as more concerned with the team than losing her husband.  The writers even had Ralph bash her for it and then they dropped any kind of satisfying response from Iris.  In S3, at LEAST they showed the team caring about Iris.  In Crisis not ONE of OTF cared about what she was losing in Crisis.  NOT ONE even mentioned her.    In scenes where they are together but not the focus of the scene they interact like coworkers, rather than married folks.

So yeah - S3 was superior in a lot of ways and the flaws are flaws we STILL HAVE NOW (and we even regressed on some stuff - re: the way TF treats Iris), but we don't have any of the good (except Team Citizen).

Edited March 20, 2020 by phoenics

[Featherhat]

1 hour ago, phoenics said:

I'm just glad someone called this out and even gladder CP retweeted it.  Not because of her response, but because I hope the writers see how upsetting this storyline is and that they are botching it.

I suspect they knew fans would be frustrated by the long amount of time and this is just a side affect of the way they planned their season. Something happened in the mid series premiere to keep people on the edge of their seats and won't come to a head until the finale arc starts to kick into gear. They've always had pacing problems, it's just extra frustrating this time. And I guess maybe they felt that since Siri is there it's not like an Iris isn't interacting with her "loved ones". 

I never felt for a moment it was a way to keep CP and GG separated. 

2 hours ago, phoenics said:

I wouldn't mind Iris being stuck in the mirror if it felt like there were some real stakes to her relationship with Barry.  In the end, it feels like it's not going to matter that Barry hasn't figured this out (and may not figure it out before she gets out of the mirror).

I truly hope there is some fallout, both actors would kill it and deserve meaty material and more than just putting a band aid on it. I don't think Barry needs to be hung drawn and quartered for it but I do hope Iris had a POV on how it felt to know there was a clone of her walking around and no one noticed, even though Siri has been a pretty good gaslighter so far. And some of Siri's observations about their relationship in the beginning, although that's possibly less likely. Whilst I don't expect Iris to be Eva, I don't think she has to be the opposite of her pain and rage either. 

However if there were supposed to be any big emotional epiphany moments in the final two episodes those most likely aren't happening now and who knows how they'll try and wrap everything up at the beginning of S7 or a S6 coda. 

[Starry]

I am going to be honest. I have no interest in watching Iris get mad at someone who's being gaslit and likely raped.

The difference between Iris and Eva is that Eva's husband knew she was trapped in there. Barry doesn't know and that is a problem because what I want from this storyline is not the kind of bad angst that leads to a fight and hurt feelings. What I need is for Barry to know Iris is missing and try everything in his power to get her back. That's the kind of good WestAllen angst they should be writing. But they'd rather have fun with SirI and Eva doing something shady than explore that. I hope next episode is when things come to a head. It's been ages and I am tired of watching both Barry and Iris fall victim to Eva's manipulations.

I don't think SirI is barely trying. That pep talk in 6x15 was definitely something Iris would say. I believe Iris should feel hurt because after being stuck for so long there's no logic that holds but I don't see Barry neglecting her and IMO he shouldn't be treated like some cheater who's barely paying attention to his wife. It's Iris who's always busy with something else and keeping her distance. I think Barry has accepted that she's found her niche as the boss of the Citizen and that the job she loves so much is keeping her away from him. A part of me wants him to confront her but I expect her to hit him with another "sorry babe, reporter brain" and if he pressures her she'll start another argument about him not trusting her and here we go, back to square one. No-one wants to be the selfish nagging husband who needs his wife to make him a priority 24/7.

At this point I think SirI needs to do something obvious for Barry to break the manipulation cycle he's stuck in. When I look at it this way it's hard for me to not see him as a victim too.

[Featherhat]

In an ideal world both would get the opportunity to discuss how this has impacted them personally and their relationship going forward and how they overcome it separately and together. However I doubt we were getting this even before the season got most likely shortened. 

[phoenics]

45 minutes ago, Starry said:

I am going to be honest. I have no interest in watching Iris get mad at someone who's being gaslit and likely raped.

The difference between Iris and Eva is that Eva's husband knew she was trapped in there. Barry doesn't know and that is a problem because what I want from this storyline is not the kind of bad angst that leads to a fight and hurt feelings. What I need is for Barry to know Iris is missing and try everything in his power to get her back. That's the kind of good WestAllen angst they should be writing. But they'd rather have fun with SirI and Eva doing something shady than explore that. I hope next episode is when things come to a head. It's been ages and I am tired of watching both Barry and Iris fall victim to Eva's manipulations.

I don't think SirI is barely trying. That pep talk in 6x15 was definitely something Iris would say. I believe Iris should feel hurt because after being stuck for so long there's no logic that holds but I don't see Barry neglecting her and IMO he shouldn't be treated like some cheater who's barely paying attention to his wife. It's Iris who's always busy with something else and keeping her distance. I think Barry has accepted that she's found her niche as the boss of the Citizen and that the job she loves so much is keeping her away from him. A part of me wants him to confront her but I expect her to hit him with another "sorry babe, reporter brain" and if he pressures her she'll start another argument about him not trusting her and here we go, back to square one. No-one wants to be the selfish nagging husband who needs his wife to make him a priority 24/7.

At this point I think SirI needs to do something obvious for Barry to break the manipulation cycle he's stuck in. When I look at it this way it's hard for me to not see him as a victim too.

Don't get me wrong - I don't really want to see anyone mad either - but I am an angst wh*re.  

I'm struggling because we aren't getting the scenes where we can see Iris upset about Siri anymore - she didn't even seem all that upset at seeing Siri with Wally, etc and everyone - she was just sad she wasn't there.  The deeper implications of her literally being replaced in her own life don't seem to be coming across in the dialogue or the writing from her in the most recent episodes.  The ONLY one where she was literally railing over it were in 6.11.

So ... I'm hanging on by a thread.

Maybe the show will surprise me and Barry will figure out at the end of 6.16 that Siri is not his Iris.  Then maybe he'll spend 6.17 trying to get her out - but in the end it's Eva who gets out instead and then Barry has to spend multiple episodes moving heaven and earth to get Iris back.  I also wouldn't mind an episode with Siri taunting real Iris with how easy it was for her to trick Barry.  A real breakfast with non-burnt food and freshly squeezed OJ was all it took.

If there isn't real fallout from this, then what is the point?  Real Iris can just be replaced by Siri, no problem?  Because right now, that's exactly what's happening.  If Siri wasn't focused on being evil, she *would* just slot right in.  It's not like we've ever gotten any dialogue from her to Eva about handling Barry.  We don't even know if she likes or dislikes Barry - just that she's focused on her Eva mission.  So who's to say she couldn't just BE Iris?  We still don't know how these duplicates work or what they are really.  Are they like time remnants in that they have all the feelings of the original because they WERE the original?

So - we NEED there to be something that differentiates Iris from Siri, *other than* her being on an evil mission.  Because in other ways, she pretty much is acting just like Iris.  The only times she's not acting like Iris is when she's on her Eva-mission.

So - without the Eva mission, is the show trying to say that she's just like Iris?  And if so, then why do we need the real Iris back at all?

That's my point.  That last question CANNOT be how the show leaves this.  If Barry/Iris are soulmates, then a duplicate version of Iris just won't do and Barry needs to figure her out BEFORE he's told.

[ursula]

16 hours ago, phoenics said:

At least that WA couple had real stakes added to their relationship from the Savitar threat and moments where Iris was the focus of that AND their love was the focus of that.  Yes, S3 had some bad stuff in it for Iris - but the romance was there.  And they carried that romance in scenes where WA wasn't even the focus - the two characters were still connected - you felt they were in love.

I think it's a mix of the bar being so low and S6 being so horrendous with its portrayal of WA that it's making s3 look better in comparison. Because s3 was bad. Those scenes/focus were few and far between. Iris was all but erased from her own narrative to give focus on other characters. But I'm not going to argue the point because I agree with the fundamental opinion - that season 6 is far worse than anything we had in season 3.

 

11 hours ago, phoenics said:

If there isn't real fallout from this, then what is the point?

^THIS.

[phoenics]

7 hours ago, ursula said:

I think it's a mix of the bar being so low and S6 being so horrendous with its portrayal of WA that it's making s3 look better in comparison. Because s3 was bad. Those scenes/focus were few and far between. Iris was all but erased from her own narrative to give focus on other characters. But I'm not going to argue the point because I agree with the fundamental opinion - that season 6 is far worse than anything we had in season 3.

 

^THIS.

I agree with you in general about S3, but it also had a lot of really good moments.  We had:

1. Iris actually being allowed to get emotional when confronted with her impending death (not being forced to be a strong black woman).
2. Iris actually being comforted over her impending death with several people, including team flash concerned about her welfare
3. Barry moving heaven and earth to try to save her
4. Barry flipping out when she was dying from that guy who touched her to kill her
5. Barry a wreck and TF falling apart after her death in the future
6. Hell - even that part with Iris touching Savitar's face and seeing him melt was a dark-shipper's dream
7. Iris not wanting to die without accomplishing more
8. Iris having more agency
9. Far more romantic moments - there are so many it's hard to count them all
10. Iris did have focus - in the episode where she teamed up with wally, the episode where barry lost his memories, etc.. yes there were some where she wasn't the focus (that part when barry came back from a future where she was dead and went to hug JOE - lol wtf - was stupid).

Contrast that to Crisis and this... and it's not even close, even with some of the issues you mention... because some of those issues are STILL issues now and we aren't even getting the good stuff (and there was a LOT of it) from S3.

How much more impactful would Crisis have been for all of us if after a moment of Iris SBW'ing, we caught her in the hallway of Star Labs with her hands over her mouth breaking down and trying to hold in the sobs?  Or a moment with her holding a pic of her, barry and nora and struggling to keep it together?

Instead we got 3 whole ass episodes of TF dealing with Barry's death and NOTHING from Iris except that first scene and then one scene in Crisis.

S3 was a damn masterpiece in comparison.

S6B is better than S6A, but it still proves Wallace either doesn't get it or he's incapable of delivering it.

[Starry]

On 3/20/2020 at 8:27 PM, phoenics said:

Maybe the show will surprise me and Barry will figure out at the end of 6.16 that Siri is not his Iris.  Then maybe he'll spend 6.17 trying to get her out - but in the end it's Eva who gets out instead and then Barry has to spend multiple episodes moving heaven and earth to get Iris back.  I also wouldn't mind an episode with Siri taunting real Iris with how easy it was for her to trick Barry.  A real breakfast with non-burnt food and freshly squeezed OJ was all it took.

I think this needs to happen. I will be disappointed if Barry is once again rendered the most ineffective superhero ever and Iris has to save herself with no help from her husband who hasn't saved her in eons.

 

On 3/20/2020 at 8:27 PM, phoenics said:

So - without the Eva mission, is the show trying to say that she's just like Iris?  And if so, then why do we need the real Iris back at all?

That's my point.  That last question CANNOT be how the show leaves this.  If Barry/Iris are soulmates, then a duplicate version of Iris just won't do and Barry needs to figure her out BEFORE he's told.

The duplicate can't replace Real Iris because there's something off about this version of WestAllen. Siri's a master manipulator preying on Barry's insecurities and fears and using his mistakes to win every argument and despite the fact that she can deliver good pep talks when it suits her he's not exactly the happiest he's ever been. Let's be real if Iris was in Siri's place she wouldn't get constantly distracted by something work-related barely paying attention to what her husband's going through.

With that being said, I am not sure Iris knows that. I think Eva is showing her a distorted version of reality. We've seen Iris watch Barry and Siri have fun and be romantic and supportive of each other but I don't think she's aware of the bad stuff. If Eva is only showing her half-truths it would make sense for Iris to come to the conclusion that she's easily replaceable. Combine that with weeks spent in isolation and she should be going crazy.

As for Barry figuring out before he's told, I don't think it's fair to expect him to make the leap that his wife has been replaced by a clone. Team Flash has dealt with shapeshifters and doppelgängers but unlike mirror clones those people didn't have all the memories of their counterparts. Barry can once again tell Siri that they are growing apart but I don't expect him to yell at her "who are you and what have you done with my wife?" unless she does something that can't be explained away.

What worries me is that Kamilla has been replaced too and with DP going on maternity leave they had to find a way to write Caitlin Frost out of the show. Assuming Black Hole/Eva do something to her too that's too many people being endangered and going through something similar. I genuinely worry this will turn into a Team Flash saving mission before it can even be about Iris/WestAllen. I really don't want to see Barry move heaven and earth to find Iris AND other members of Team Flash/Citizen.

[adora721]

4 hours ago, Starry said:

I really don't want to see Barry move heaven and earth to find Iris AND other members of Team Flash/Citizen.

Sorry to say, but everything - "we are the flash", "Nora West-Allen", COIE, compliments to Iris, etc. - becomes about Team Flash. I don't expect anything different this time.

[phoenics]

8 hours ago, Starry said:

Assuming Black Hole/Eva do something to her too that's too many people being endangered and going through something similar. I genuinely worry this will turn into a Team Flash saving mission before it can even be about Iris/WestAllen. I really don't want to see Barry move heaven and earth to find Iris AND other members of Team Flash/Citizen.

I have this exact same fear - I will be SO ANGRY if this is what happens.  That's just inexcusable to lock Iris in that mirror for all those episodes and then the fallout be shared as a TF thing.  NO.

The minute Kamila got sucked into the mirrorverse, I was like - not cool.  What's sad is I really don't trust Eric Wallace NOT to do this.  The only thing that gives me hope is that he's claimed this is about Iris on the back half - but we've seen he exaggerates in interviews (or outright lies) so ... dammit.

[phoenics]

8 hours ago, Starry said:

As for Barry figuring out before he's told, I don't think it's fair to expect him to make the leap that his wife has been replaced by a clone.

Actually I think it is fair.  We are dealing with soulmates - he doesn't have to understand how he knows this - he just needs to know.  That's it.  Period.  Iris in his position has known.  Since they have dealt with doppelgangers and the like before then he needs to wonder if she's been merged with hers like Nash was... something... but him walking around as if that is HIS Iris just makes him suck as the other half of what is supposed to be an OTP soulmate couple.

It may not make sense from a realistic perspective to expect this of him, but it makes total sense from a "soulmate best practices" perspective.

Soulmates are supposed to know this stuff.  Barry and Iris literally find each other in whatever universe or time they are in.  Iris is Barry's lightning rod... and he is hers...

If Barry doesn't figure this out before being told, the show will have broken that and I will never ever forgive them.

The writers should have NEVER written this storyline so that Barry wouldn't somehow figure it out or "know" in the end before being told.

[BeautifulFlower]

2 hours ago, phoenics said:

Actually I think it is fair.  We are dealing with soulmates - he doesn't have to understand how he knows this - he just needs to know.  That's it.  Period.  Iris in his position has known.  Since they have dealt with doppelgangers and the like before then he needs to wonder if she's been merged with hers like Nash was... something... but him walking around as if that is HIS Iris just makes him suck as the other half of what is supposed to be an OTP soulmate couple.

It may not make sense from a realistic perspective to expect this of him, but it makes total sense from a "soulmate best practices" perspective.

Soulmates are supposed to know this stuff.  Barry and Iris literally find each other in whatever universe or time they are in.  Iris is Barry's lightning rod... and he is hers...

If Barry doesn't figure this out before being told, the show will have broken that and I will never ever forgive them.

The writers should have NEVER written this storyline so that Barry wouldn't somehow figure it out or "know" in the end before being told.

Iris in his position could tell it wasn't Barry? Are you talking about Russo? Because that is literally the only time she could tell it wasn't him. Iris knew Barry was infected by Russo, so it was easy for her to immediately to know something was off afterwards.

Everyman? Iris couldn't tell.

Elseworlds? It took Barry recall something that only he and Iris knew for her to believe

Even Earth 2 Iris didn't know that was her husband.

I feel like some people are forgetting 6x11 all together. Siri was confronted on her behavior and she came up with lies on the spot. She's a manipulator. She's a copy of Iris, but with a little more attitude. We really can't blame Barry for not noticing.

[Featherhat]

If the roles were reversed Iris wouldn't have realized it wasn't Barry immediately because that's the story they feel the need to tell right now. 

I was going to bring up Elseworlds but @BeautifulFlower already did. Iris certainly thought a different version of Barry was her husband there for pure silly plot hijinks, here it's at least more involved. I don't really think it damages their special connection, especially he knows *something's* off and he's trying not to confront Iris about her changes and let her develop after COIE after being gaslit.

Although full disclosure "soulmate status" even when writers follow it up with the correct action/plots isn't something that's important to me with any couple I like. And often is just used as a storytelling shortcut (OUAT burned me out on this), which kind of happened with this show at the end of S2 and them getting together. I like WA *inspite* of all the "meant to be" stuff but I fully understand it's other people's favourite part. 

 

Edited March 24, 2020 by Featherhat

[Trini]

About 6.16:

I really liked the scene at the West house with all the couples hanging out. I've wanted to see Barry & Iris on a double date, so this kind of fulfills that. Except that Iris and Kamilla were the mirror versions! 😢

Speaking of Kamilla, she's missing and has been replaced now, too; but are they going to address that at all with Cisco? The show rarely spends any time on their relationship, so it's not that surprising, but then they had Cisco in this same episode being flirty with another woman. Yes, Carlos is good with those types of scenes, but everyone just totally forgot that Cisco has an entire girlfriend.

(Even if anyone thinks the writers don't care about WestAllen enough, let me tell you they care way, way less (if at all) about the other romances; so there shouldn't be any fear about other couples pulling focus.)

I'm still not sure how I feel about Sue, and Ralph and Sue. Dreyfuss is fine in the role, but Sue has acted more shady than not in her 2 appearances, IMO. Even if she's doing the typical 'bad things for good reasons'. Whatever romance she and Ralph will have seems like it will go slower -- at least compared to Cisco/Kamilla who were a couple after 3 episodes. I assume that Dreyfuss will be recurring, if not a regular, next season.

I hate that they remember and acknowledge that Joe and Cecile aren't married, but yet they don't feel the need to do anything about it. SIGH  Despite her getting kidnapped, this episode was the most Joe/Cecile we've had in a while.

[Trini]

Part 2:

So not much of the real Iris, or real WestAllen in 6.16. I miss them!

But now Siri is being more overt - doing and saying things that are much more out-of-character for Iris. The realization for Barry wasn't in this episode, however he's closer than ever to figuring out that Siri isn't his Iris. Finally!

Siri was being so manipulative, and using the very cornerstones of the love between Barry & Iris to hurt him. I've always wanted Evil Iris, but not quite like this! 😂  But Barry knows Iris wouldn't overreact like that, or be so callous and use his parents' deaths against him. Even the last time the real WestAllen had a blow up, it was Iris who went to Joe's, instead of kicking Barry out.

What struck me was that even after Siri told him to leave and slammed the door in his face, that would normally be the time for that Single Manly Tear (if not outright bawling!) but Barry isn't sad or mad, he's just very confused. Because why would Iris be acting this way??

Looking forward to see how they follow this up.

---

Also it looks like they're kind of trying to to do another evil couple vs. WestAllen, with Eva and Carver as married antagonists. But so far they're not nearly as interesting as The Thinker and Mechanic were. I guess the twist here is that both are antagonists for each other as well.

We're probably not going to see it since the season is cut short, but it would great if they had Iris as well as Barry (we are The Flash!) have a part to play in taking down Carver and/or Eva, since they have both been fighting against both of them.

[Trini]

::cries::

 

Also crying because I'm not hopeful that Iris gets out before we run out of episodes.

[phoenics]

On 4/28/2020 at 4:16 PM, Trini said:

Part 2:

So not much of the real Iris, or real WestAllen in 6.16. I miss them!

But now Siri is being more overt - doing and saying things that are much more out-of-character for Iris. The realization for Barry wasn't in this episode, however he's closer than ever to figuring out that Siri isn't his Iris. Finally!

Siri was being so manipulative, and using the very cornerstones of the love between Barry & Iris to hurt him. I've always wanted Evil Iris, but not quite like this! 😂  But Barry knows Iris wouldn't overreact like that, or be so callous and use his parents' deaths against him. Even the last time the real WestAllen had a blow up, it was Iris who went to Joe's, instead of kicking Barry out.

What struck me was that even after Siri told him to leave and slammed the door in his face, that would normally be the time for that Single Manly Tear (if not outright bawling!) but Barry isn't sad or mad, he's just very confused. Because why would Iris be acting this way??

 

 

Grant did some amazing work with these scenes.  That part when he stutters "Look I'm - I'm - I'm trying to keep this family safe." BROKE ME.  He's so desperate to explain to her that he's barely keeping it together and he feels like he's being ripped apart when he runs... just whew... and then Siri delivered that knock out "We both lost our parents."

Damn.  Just Damn!

Then when she kicked him out... Grant had the perfect WTAF mixed with "this is some BS" expression on his face, lol.  I mean - he killed it.  When he got outside the apartment - that look on his face was at once confusion and then slow comprehension all at once.

This Siri seems to know that Barry's powers are tied to his emotions and that her destroying him with her words and kicking him out would completely drain him.

Whew - this scene is crazy angst - I'm so glad it's not WestAllen but Siri/Barry.

Lord.

[phoenics]

6 hours ago, Trini said:

::cries::

 

Also crying because I'm not hopeful that Iris gets out before we run out of episodes.

I'm not either.  We're gonna have to pass out valium on twitter - folks there are desperate for her to get out the next episode, much less the finale.

Meanwhile I'm like:

 

[phoenics]

Last night was also a pretty tacit admission from the show that there is no Flash without Iris - the minute he realized she was really gone and in danger, etc.., his powers went to zero. 

Even he knew it.  When he talked to Cecile about the minute he stepped out of the apartment and realized that wasn't Iris, the meter went red and it's stayed that way ever since.

It threw the scene with him in Star Labs working with Cisco and Ralph on the Speed Force Generator into new light for me - he was hyper focused on that and not concerned with Siri at that point because his focus was on getting his powers back so he could find and save Iris.  Awwwwwww.

Then his desperation at Cecile's house trying to explain his theories about what happened to his Iris, looking like this guy:

 

And then when Siri and Eva turned the tables on Barry... whew... I felt that pain.  Poor Barry looked so confused.  I was confused.  That was like when the Thinker messed with Barry... Siri has really been an effective villain.

Shallow comment:  I love Iris' black coat in this episode. 

 

 

Edited April 30, 2020 by phoenics

[Trini]

14 hours ago, phoenics said:

I'm not either.  We're gonna have to pass out valium on twitter - folks there are desperate for her to get out the next episode, much less the finale.

Meanwhile I'm like:

I mean, I was hoping Iris would be out by this episode; but I think if she's not out by now, then she not going to be out. Them waiting to resolve everything in the last episode is going to bite them (us?) in the butt this year.

Edited April 30, 2020 by Trini

[BookishBabe]

On 12/7/2016 at 4:49 AM, ruby24 said:

I'm at the point where I believe this does have something to do with race. I think they want Barry/Iris to be this pure, Disney-esque love story, but for some reason that means pretending sex doesn't exist and making them as tame as humanly possible.

And I'm sorry, but I don't believe this would be the case with a white couple. I think if the romantic female lead was white, they would absolutely be given a romanticized first time sex scene like every other main show couple in CW history.

I'm uncomfortable now, because I genuinely believe that's what's happening. For them to not even have written a scene like what Barry got with Patty after they had sex...that's just messed up. And it's telling.

And I guess I'm more disturbed because I didn't see it coming. I was thinking of it like any other couple. I thought there's absolutely no way they have sex offscreen or don't make a big deal out of their first time, and I was ignoring the very in your face fact that they've been doing the bare minimum with these two all season long (aside from 3x04 I guess). I just couldn't even fathom a CW show ignoring their main couple's first time together.

But I was wrong. They were given less than nothing. Less than he had with Patty, less than he had with Linda. That is a big statement. And it's a disturbing one.

Amen to everything you say here!! I know I'm really late, Corona virus has made it possible for me to even watch the show! I just finished season 3 which I LOVED!

BUT I got to the scenes where they moved in together and I was like, where was the love scene?!?! Arrow had a super steamy scene with Felicity and Oliver before he joined the league of shadows! It was amazing. But there is clearly a force behind the scenes at The Flash that does not want to show a love scene between a Black woman and a white man on a CW show. Its really very sad.

[Trini]

I thought 6.18 was good at dealing with the emotional fallout of the revelations about Iris, and the Mirrorverse. I really liked that we got that  Barry/Joe scene at the start; because of course he should be the next to informed, but also that Barry needed to see him for emotional support. The fear, anger, guilt, self-doubt, and eventual return of hope and determination were all the feelings I wanted to see from Barry about Iris being taken from him.

Speaking of Iris, it was also great to see a friendship moment between her and Kamilla in which she got to share her feelings and get encouragement in return. And the video message was heartbreaking! They need to not separate WestAllen again after this.

I had a few problems though: I wish they had done more showing than telling about Cisco & Kamilla's (supposedly) great love. Also, since Barry and Cisco were shouting at each other at the beginning of the episode, and they were both going through nearly the same thing, I wish there had been a scene with just the two of them making up, and not just the Team Pep Talk with everyone at the end.

Nash was just totally out of place.

I guess something can also be said about Ralph's continued friendship with and mentoring of Frost, but I skipped those parts.

----

On one hand, I like that WestAllen are the couple that can get through anything together, but I really hope the writers give them a break next season. At least from separation drama and watching the other (version) die drama.

----

So next episode looks like we might get some Westallen vs Eva/Carver parallels and/or contrasts.

[Trini]

Also posting this here since it's mainly about WestAllen: https://www.etonline.com/the-flash-season-7-grant-gustin-asks-candice-patton-if-westallen-should-renew-their-vows-exclusive

 

[Featherhat]

I think that would be a nice idea, especially since unlike LOT and Arrow there was no separate personal celebration/commemoration after the crossover. And yeah after Mirrorverse gets resolved they're going to need something happy. Hopefully after they discuss some of the issues it's brought up. 

Interesting from what they were saying that the idea if doing something like that has never come up BTS though. 

[phoenics]

4 hours ago, Featherhat said:

I think that would be a nice idea, especially since unlike LOT and Arrow there was no separate personal celebration/commemoration after the crossover. And yeah after Mirrorverse gets resolved they're going to need something happy. Hopefully after they discuss some of the issues it's brought up. 

Interesting from what they were saying that the idea if doing something like that has never come up BTS though. 

I'm not surprised at all that it hasn't come up - although EWallace was asked this in an interview, I thought?  Or maybe one of the Helbings were asked?

In any case - I love Grant - in the article leanne wrote, Grant says:

"I think a lot of that closeness has been missing this year," Grant added.  "It's been a different season.  I know people are missing that dynamic and we'll get it back I'm sure."

Grant gets it.  He also mentions how weird it was to not film much at all with CP this season compared to other pairings.  I hope he talks EWallace's ear off and argues why The Flash without #WestAllen centered and focused on hurts the show.  I mean FFS!  GG/CP are the leads - we should not be having to fight to see them interact onscreen (especially for storylines that by all intents and purposes SHOULD center them - like Crisis and this Mirror storyline).  But Wallace basically turned them into a couple on paper.

The writing TELLS us they are so in love, etc.. but Wallace doesn't SHOW us - instead, he focuses on pairing Barry off with OTF characters and dropping crackship bait.

I'm really upset by this.

CP's screentime is still weirdly marginalized, even if we see her a lot.  Even in a storyline that should be about HER, she's still marginalized.  It's like she and Barry reside in different worlds this season.  All of their scenes are with other people for the most part.  The fact that I can count the number of meaningful WA interactions (and most are from fake Iris) is pitiful. Crisis should have evened things out, but Wallace was too busy recentering the show around OTF and centering them - so much so that Iris was reduced to a strong black woman trope.

Season 3 had the centering much better.  We got each episode pretty much ending with Barry/Iris at home... this show NEEDS that kind of emotional grounding (and no, you can't replace it with Caitlin/Barry) and pretend that's appropriate when Barry is MARRIED to Iris!  Without it, it's lost its emotional center.

I would have taken a scene with Barry all by himself, wracked with guilt and pain over Iris being lost in the mirrorverse than that crackshipbait scene.  That would have held much more emotional weight.  But nooooo.  Wallace gave us that crap instead - which just made me feel angry and manipulated.

Edited May 13, 2020 by phoenics

[Starry]

That video is adorable!

I would settle for more romance, affection and happy moments but between Eric's style and COVID-19 I have no hopes anymore.

I am not even going to delude myself about a vow renewal. The media keeps asking about more romance and a wedding and Helbing said that he would consider doing it but after they lie at Comic Con all these showrunners do is sideline WestAllen even more.

But Grant and Candice are adorable and I am glad they commented about those things. This is the second time Grant has talked about how weird it was that he barely saw Candice this season.

[Trini]

7 hours ago, Featherhat said:

Interesting from what they were saying that the idea if doing something like that has never come up BTS though. 

I don't know about BTS, but this is not the first (or second...) time it has been brought up in the media. Leanne (the ET interviewer) has specifically mentioned it to Helbing at Comic Con. Grant and and Candice have been asked about it before. I'm not sure if a vow renewal has been pitched to Wallace specifically, but he's been here since Season 4, so I assume he is somewhat aware of the issue.

Don't quote me on this, because I can't find the source, but Helbing's attitude seemed to be that there's no need for a do-over, they're married and that's that.

I can't recall if Wallace has said anything about a vow renewal/do-over wedding, but he also doesn't see the need for Joe and Cecile to be married, or show Cisco and Kamilla's romance, so I don't think it's a priority for him either.

[Featherhat]

7 hours ago, Trini said:

I don't know about BTS, but this is not the first (or second...) time it has been brought up in the media. Leanne (the ET interviewer) has specifically mentioned it to Helbing at Comic Con. Grant and and Candice have been asked about it before. I'm not sure if a vow renewal has been pitched to Wallace specifically, but he's been here since Season 4, so I assume he is somewhat aware of the issue.

Don't quote me on this, because I can't find the source, but Helbing's attitude seemed to be that there's no need for a do-over, they're married and that's that.

I can't recall if Wallace has said anything about a vow renewal/do-over wedding, but he also doesn't see the need for Joe and Cecile to be married, or show Cisco and Kamilla's romance, so I don't think it's a priority for him either.

I thought it was an interesting titbit that GG doesn't think it has ever been talked about as on the table because it's far from the first time some sort of renewal or do-over has been brought up by mainstream entertainment press directly. Especially because it was the only show out of the "two weddings and a funeral" set up that didn't dedicate an episode to working through that at the time. Maybe the writers' room did discuss it and under Helbing concluded it wasn't necessary and Wallace, who knows? Post surviving the Mirrorverse, surviving Crisis and the world literally being remade by their friend seems a great time to do it. 

Switching a bit, I agree that Joe/Cecile should have at least brought it up, even if they ultimately decided against it for reasons. I can't believe Joe West of all people wouldn't want to marry the mother of his child whom he loves and is in a relationship with. That could have also lead into WestAllen deciding to do something else. I realise he's a supporting character and Cecile is a tier down, JLM has had health leaves etc but it's been seasons with no comment on it. 

Edited May 14, 2020 by Featherhat

[Trini]

16 hours ago, Featherhat said:

I thought it was an interesting titbit that GG doesn't think it has ever been talked about as on the table because it's far from the first time some sort of renewal or do-over has been brought up by mainstream entertainment press directly.

I guess he forgot, LOL!

 

16 hours ago, Featherhat said:

I can't believe Joe West of all people wouldn't want to marry the mother of his child whom he loves and is in a relationship with.

This is my main issue; it doesn't fit with who Joe West is as a character. I don't even need them to make a subplot about it. If they get hitched offscreen, I'd be fine with that. It's literally the least they could do.

Edited May 14, 2020 by Trini
spelling!

[Starry]

10 hours ago, Trini said:

I guess he forgot, LOL!

He didn't forget. Leanne mentioned that she and Grant have talked about it many times but what he meant is that it hadn't come up when discussing storylines with the writers and producers. Helbing played nice when he was asked by the media but I doubt he and his writers ever intended to do a vow renewal. They never even mentioned Barry and Iris' anniversary! Wallace is the same except in his case I don't think he was asked by the media either. There were a lot of discussions about more romance at Comic Con though. I am willing to bet that these showrunners think that giving Barry and Iris scenes together and putting them through endless trauma is equivalent to writing romance. The fact that they are a married couple is acknowledged in the writing. How dare we think there isn't enough romance? 🙄

These people are already stingy with couple scenes and how many genre shows have done vow renewals? If it's not a comic book trope they won't genuinely consider doing it. I think it's more likely they'll do the Barry and Iris speedster team-up Candice suggested.

 

21 hours ago, phoenics said:

The writing TELLS us they are so in love, etc.. but Wallace doesn't SHOW us - instead, he focuses on pairing Barry off with OTF characters and dropping crackship bait.

I don't think there have been many OTF and Barry and Caitlin solo scenes either but Wallace definitely tried to be more "fair" in trying to pair Barry up with as many characters as possible when that's not always necessary or even good storytelling.

Barry doesn't need to have as many scenes with the others as he does with his wife. She's his wife and the leading lady for a reason. And what ended up happening is that Wallace sidelined WestAllen but he also failed at strengthening Barry's relationship with the team.

As for the crackship bait, the finale bugged. I didn't have a problem with what Barry said but Caitlin's pep talk got on my nerves and I was annoyed with how the scene was framed. The slow motion was ridiculous and why the hell was Barry standing in Caitlin's apartment when she left? It was done so they could have a "look back" shot but it made no sense to have Barry stand in Caitlin's house when she and her mother were leaving like he lives there. I am not one to think the writers are "baiting" every time they have Barry and Caitlin share screen time but this time I do think that was their intention.

But I still think Caitlin/Frost has had more shippy scenes with Ralph. He was her life coach, brought her a cute stuffed animal, hurt himself to bring her out of that coma and there was that scene where Barry was hurt and Frost had a panic attack and flashed back to when Ralph was injured. Barry didn't really do anything for Frost outside of throwing her a birthday party which is still something compared to the nothing they had in previous seasons I guess.

Now that they've had the entire cast fawn over Caitlin and Frost before DP leaves for a while ( if she even leaves at all, thanks COVID-19! ) I wonder if they're going to do the same for Iris when she gets out of the Mirrorverse. At the very least she deserves a great reunion with her husband and plenty of supportive scenes with him and her family.

[phoenics]

8 hours ago, Starry said:

He didn't forget. Leanne mentioned that she and Grant have talked about it many times but what he meant is that it hadn't come up when discussing storylines with the writers and producers. Helbing played nice when he was asked by the media but I doubt he and his writers ever intended to do a vow renewal. They never even mentioned Barry and Iris' anniversary! Wallace is the same except in his case I don't think he was asked by the media either. There were a lot of discussions about more romance at Comic Con though. I am willing to bet that these showrunners think that giving Barry and Iris scenes together and putting them through endless trauma is equivalent to writing romance. The fact that they are a married couple is acknowledged in the writing. How dare we think there isn't enough romance? 🙄

These people are already stingy with couple scenes and how many genre shows have done vow renewals? If it's not a comic book trope they won't genuinely consider doing it. I think it's more likely they'll do the Barry and Iris speedster team-up Candice suggested.

 

I don't think there have been many OTF and Barry and Caitlin solo scenes either but Wallace definitely tried to be more "fair" in trying to pair Barry up with as many characters as possible when that's not always necessary or even good storytelling.

Barry doesn't need to have as many scenes with the others as he does with his wife. She's his wife and the leading lady for a reason. And what ended up happening is that Wallace sidelined WestAllen but he also failed at strengthening Barry's relationship with the team.

As for the crackship bait, the finale bugged. I didn't have a problem with what Barry said but Caitlin's pep talk got on my nerves and I was annoyed with how the scene was framed. The slow motion was ridiculous and why the hell was Barry standing in Caitlin's apartment when she left? It was done so they could have a "look back" shot but it made no sense to have Barry stand in Caitlin's house when she and her mother were leaving like he lives there. I am not one to think the writers are "baiting" every time they have Barry and Caitlin share screen time but this time I do think that was their intention.

But I still think Caitlin/Frost has had more shippy scenes with Ralph. He was her life coach, brought her a cute stuffed animal, hurt himself to bring her out of that coma and there was that scene where Barry was hurt and Frost had a panic attack and flashed back to when Ralph was injured. Barry didn't really do anything for Frost outside of throwing her a birthday party which is still something compared to the nothing they had in previous seasons I guess.

Now that they've had the entire cast fawn over Caitlin and Frost before DP leaves for a while ( if she even leaves at all, thanks COVID-19! ) I wonder if they're going to do the same for Iris when she gets out of the Mirrorverse. At the very least she deserves a great reunion with her husband and plenty of supportive scenes with him and her family.

To the bolded - it's not just about scenes.  It's about the writing purposefully attempting to elevate Caitlin in order of importance to Barry.  There is a scene where Barry talks about losing Caitlin, etc..  The scene where CAITLIN gets saved by Barry so she doesn't fall into the black hole, yet IRIS his WIFE has to save her damn self from going into the black hole.  Then in a scene where Iris is upset that Barry seems to be giving into his Crisis fate and Barry says that he saw her and Caitlin, everyone die.  He didn't mention Cisco - Cisco got lumped into "everyone".  Then there is another scene where he's mentioning people in importance and he does the Iris, Caitlin thing AGAIN.

It's completely unrealistic because for most seasons on this show it was always Iris, JOE, Wally (if he was aorund) and then TF.  Caitlin has NEVER been mentioned that way.

Then we got the episode devoted to Caitlin/KF and Barry (and the other ones for the rest of TF) AND we got a goodbye with Caitlin/Barry/Cisco in the Crisis finale where Barry is about to sacrifice himself.  But Iris only got one measly scene in Crisis.  That's it.  That's ALL we got other than her finding out about Crisis in 2 scenes.

Thassit.

Then for the mirrorverse plot - it's as if Iris/Barry weren't even married - the only time we got with them was not with the real Iris.

But even with that - the show went to great pains to reorient TF as being EQUALLY important to Barry and that's just BS.  I don't care who you are, if your coworker-friends are as important to you as your wife, your marriage is in jeopardy.  Your wife and kids come first.  Period.

That whole mess with everyone coddling KF?  Reassuring her she's just as important as finding Iris, Kamila and Singh?  Maybe the latter 2, but she's nowhere NEAR as important as Iris.  Not even close!

So yeah - this is being done on purpose.

I'm still angry they made Iris forgive CS/KF when neither ever apologized to her for trying to kill her.  And I'm really struggling with how the writing is trying to elevate KF/CS so much - with Cisco and Ralph at her beck and call, yet Iris doesn't really seem to have any support.

It's still really vexing to me that no one from TF ever asked her how she was dealing with Barry dying in Crisis, except Ralph who bashed her for seeming too devoted to them.  And as he flounced off, I saw KF looking at Iris and I THOUGHT (like the clown I am) that she was going to ask Iris if she was okay - but instead she says she's gonna go check on Ralph.

WTF?

No - this ish is totally being done on purpose.

So that last scene with Barry at Cait's place was blatant ship-baiting.  In fact, because I'm paranoid and I know shows like to screw over their black female leads, I'm almost worried they plan to make Iris totally evil so they can have Barry dump her and hook up with CS.

At least then I could quit the show though.

Edited May 14, 2020 by phoenics

[Starry]

Wallace has definitely sidelined Barry and Iris and elevated Team Flash's importance as a result. We've got so little WestAllen it looks like there's been more Barry and Caitlin and OTF even though they didn't get much more than what their fans are used to. But because they've been so stingy with WestAllen the amount of SB and OTF solo scenes bugged.

And it doesn't help that Iris has been stuck in a mirror for the entirety of 6B and Barry's relationship with SirI was mostly strained.

 

11 hours ago, phoenics said:

There is a scene where Barry talks about losing Caitlin, etc..  The scene where CAITLIN gets saved by Barry so she doesn't fall into the black hole, yet IRIS his WIFE has to save her damn self from going into the black hole.  Then in a scene where Iris is upset that Barry seems to be giving into his Crisis fate and Barry says that he saw her and Caitlin, everyone die.  He didn't mention Cisco - Cisco got lumped into "everyone".  Then there is another scene where he's mentioning people in importance and he does the Iris, Caitlin thing AGAIN.

I remember that scene where Barry's lying on the couch and talks about watching billions of futures where Iris, Cisco, Caitlin and everyone else die and even though he mouths Cisco's name that part was muted and it sounded like he only says Iris and Caitlin and lumps Cisco in with everyone else. That was weird and completely unnecessary.

And it's disgusting that Caitlin Frost is treated like this badass hero who gets praised for doing the bare minimum but still gets to be saved by Barry while his human wife has to constantly say and prove that she can take care of herself. This seems to be more of a Caitlin thing than a white woman thing because Sue has obnoxiously pointed out that she's no damsel in distress either. Every time Barry and Ralph act like they want to protect Iris and Sue they get pushback. It's not the same with Caitlin Frost and this "delicate flower" shtick has been even more annoying under Wallace's leadership. What has Frost done that warrants so much pampering and ass kissing from the entire cast? I don't remember one instance where she/Caitlin have been totally selfless or put their lives on the line for anyone. Is it Panabaker's permanent deer in headlights facial expression that makes the writers write her character like she's such a delicate little woman in need of protection?

 

12 hours ago, phoenics said:

So that last scene with Barry at Cait's place was blatant ship-baiting.  In fact, because I'm paranoid and I know shows like to screw over their black female leads, I'm almost worried they plan to make Iris totally evil so they can have Barry dump her and hook up with CS.

At least then I could quit the show though.

That's not happening. That scene was put in there as a parting gift to her fans. It was unnecessary as DP is not leaving for good but I bet that was their intention.

Even if they make Iris evil, the story will still be about WestAllen. It'll be wasted potential, the evil Iris won't get handled with kid gloves like Killer Frost was and there will be team drama and "harmless" Barry and Caitlin scenes forced in-between but WestAllen will stay the main couple.

But I will have to keep an eye on Lauren Barnett. She's a new writer and has written all the episodes with the most "personal" Barry and Caitlin interactions.

[BeautifulFlower]

Am I the only one who wasn't bothered by the Caitlin and Barry scene? When I saw it, I knew it was a goodbye scene and nothing more. They were going to have one as they're friends. We can't change that. If you're bothered by slow motion and etc, that means you were looking for that stuff. Just be like me and wait for the scene to be over. The only thing that bothered me was that Barry was talking about his failure that day. Caitlin's advice is something that Barry has gotten and knows about. If they wanted reiterate something, it should've came from Joe. Other than that, the scene didn't bother me. As I mentioned already, they're friends. Whether we like it or not, they will have scenes.

If you think every scene B and C share is ship bait, it actually fuels those shippers into thinking their crackship has a chance. It actually fuels them into believing WestAllen fans are threatened by their ship. 

I hate that Cisco didn't get a goodbye scene. If they knew episode 19 was her goodbye episode, why didn't they have Cisco in it? Caitlin is his best friend.