Spoilers, Speculation & All Things Media!

[Elysium1973]

I know, right? If you say something over and over again it stops making any sense. And it's only seven letters

You make good points about the difference between subtext and...everything else and it does tend to get complicated at times. I think with this show it may easier to define what it is versus what it isn't. I think the coffee is the thing they did the best, without a doubt. Hand porn in season five. Always as a word, as you mentioned above. As I'm thinking of it, there's plenty of examples pre Always. It's what made it so much fun, I think.

I'm having trouble coming up with much post-Always. And I think that's to the show's detriment at times because real people and real couples use subtext as a kind of shorthand. So do friends for that matter. It shows familiarity. And I think you're absolutely correct that RC's disinterest in KB wasn't subtext because it was proven not to be correct and in order for subtext to exist it has to be true according to the writer/creator (at least and then actor and director). Can you guys think of more post Always subtext? Everything since then seems like a blur...

[Nadine]

I'm interested to see how it plays out. Reading it and seeing it are often very different.

 

Agree with this statement 100%. So many times you can read something on paper and go fantastic and then see it play out and you get a totally different feeling (and vice versa).

[Elysium1973]

But do you guys think that the show would benefit from subtext at this point? To me it would another layer to both their relationship and to the show. Now that I'm thinking of it I actually think that I liked the subtext before Always. In the places it worked it worked well. But after Always it seems like the subtext went away and that didn't have to happen. The use of handporn in SDWM is a good example.

[Nadine]

For me I'm not sure if would benefit now compared to if they had continued it say in S5. I did like the use of it before Always though and agree the handshake and coffee are the two major examples that I can think of that are still being used. That and saying "Always" (though my brain is half-asleep today but pretty sure that would be subtext since people have mentioned it above too).

Edited July 24, 2014 by Nadine

[Elysium1973]

 

The second reason I dislike it being used too much is that the relationship has moved on now to such an extent that using subtext as the mainstay of how they communicate no longer makes any logical sense. When they were tip toeing around what they were to each other I could accept them being cagey with their words but not any more. Couples of their age at that stage in a relationship don't wade through subtext to communicate day to day they actually talk to each other properly because by that time you should be past all that crap and be mature enough to use proper grown up words to deal with whatever issues you have. They're not a couple of hormonal teenagers or a young couple in the first stages of some new romance and I wish Marlowe would change his writing accordingly to reflect that.

On second thought, I think these are some good points. I agree that couples do need to use grown up words and we have certainly seen a distinct lack of communication from these two at times (discussing Beckett's potential job, Castle's "walls", Castle's dad, etc) and both Caskett and the show suffer as a result. I also think Marlowe can certainly be more than clumsy with his storytelling.

That said, done right, subtext doesn't have to suck in the current Caskett relationship (see handporn). It doesn't have to be a disaster. But it requires restraint and commitment from the writers and actors.

[verdana]

Elysium. Agree. Good subtext doesn't have to suck. I find when they start arguing over serious issues they often stop using grown up words with each other for no reason other than the plot calls for it and I'm going to be interested if that happens again with this new mythology and the "unsettling" of Beckett. 

 

By the looks of the exchange of posts since I last checked in it's ambiguous lazy storytelling not subtext at all (good or bad) that I'm taking issue with. *shrug* Okay no problem it's all good discussion. Unfortunately it doesn't make much difference in the long run as the result is the same at least for me. Confusing storytelling. Last season we had very little focus on their relationship despite all the wedding planning going on so the ambiguity has not been there to any huge degree, aside from the finale Caskett had a very happy season together - Beckett and her secret marriage bullshit was plain dumb not confusing or ambiguous.

 

S5 was not good, at various moments in the season I wondered what I should be taking from certain scenes (if anything) culminating with the awful Watershed.  So much confusion caused with many fans over what the characters were feeling during particular key moments (not the row in her apartment that wasn't ambiguous just highly annoying). Her talk ("its the job that I want") with her father, the scene in the interview room when she's making her big speech then she walks out and looks around, her demeanour at the swings - what did it all mean? Apparently everyone had a different take on it and some even wrote on their blogs trying to explain the situation for those fans begging for clarification. I read them. Some said if you just keep watching you'll understand it. If I have to watch something about twenty times and I'm still none the wiser then I consider that a failure on the part of the writer to convey what they wanted but then other fans say it's obvious what's happening there so who knows?  May be Marlowe's writing style simply isn't suited to me as a viewer end of story. 

 

McManda. As for Rise and the swings no I didn't understand that conversation really. What seems so plain to others as to what was going on confuses me even now.  When she tells him this "wall" has to come down before she can have the kind of relationship she wants is it obvious Castle must take that as meaning him? Or is she just talking generally how she needs to heal before she can start thinking about a decent relationship with a bloke? She tells Castle she really liked Josh (great) but "it wasn't enough" and stares at him. So is she staring hard at him to affirm to Castle she wants him and only him or just staring at him because she's talking to him and she needs him to focus and stop being disinterested which he was at that point and rightly so.

 

Based on that exchange what is he meant to take from that? What about the audience? Considering we are at a critical moment in their relationship I didn't find that exchange satisfying and to use this as a fresh start between them for almost a whole season of miscommunication, secrets and lies. In light of what happens after that when for months on end she acts like that conversation at the swings never happened and life continues on in lets stay best friends forever mode I find it even more annoying looking back. Oh and I just realised I was using your transcript to jog my memory McManda nice work I wouldn't relish having to do that every week. 

Edited July 24, 2014 by verdana

[verdana]

Anything that takes away from the uniqueness of their relationship (writer and muse) and what they have together is not something I wish to see. Irrational as that may sound. What makes Caskett uniquely "them" should never be tarnished or treated cheaply as a means of creating temporary drama that I know will get forgotten about by the next episode. Knowing Castle had done this before and used another muse for research for over a year chipped away at even if at the writers aim was to prove to me Kate was more special. It didn't work and I thought it was a mistake introducing her as this woman out of his past and also making her a murderer. Just like Kate's "one and done" comment she made in Nanny McDead no longer being true was upsetting for some especially in the way it was so casually dismissed for a cheap laugh simply to play out a last minute wedding hitch.

 

Then there are also actions I consider special and reserved for them alone: Coffee, we've talked about that when discussing subtext and what that signifies between them. It's their "thing" so when I see other people handing them coffee in the precinct I don't like it no matter how crazy that sounds. Problem solving, again that's something I feel is reserved for them alone but they had Castle doing it with Sophia in front of Kate which hurt me to see as much as it did her. Then we had Castle doing the same with Alexis in F&D and even Gates I think last season at one point. Considering Marlowe has admitted it's like sexual foreplay for them I felt it wrong for them to be doing that with anyone else. 

 

I've forgotten where we are on Nathan's on set appearances.

 

Nadine said he was there last Thursday and I heard someone elsewhere tweet they saw him this Monday.

 

Any way from this tweet I don't think he can have been filming much this week. Thursday looks like he's at SDCC so he won't be back so may be that's it for 7.01

Nathan Fillion @NathanFillion  ·  15h
“@Vamp: #SDCC Thursday Schedule
10am @witchergame Panel Room 6A
12-2pm Signing at @PinUpNicole booth#4528 pic.twitter.com/p48Vzoo32F”

https://twitter.com/Vamp/status/492038618794319874/photo/1

I'm in.

 

[madmaverick]

Subtext or actual text, my problem is that there seem to be fewer and fewer emotionally satisfying exchanges between the characters.  Or even sexy, witty exchanges. Yes, they've now incorporated more scenes of Castle and Beckett directly talking to each other in the loft.  But I've found most of them disappointing, to be honest.  If the conversation is to resolve an issue or a problem (the B story equivalent of the COTW), it's almost always done in an easy, superficial, forgettable way that just involves 2 or 3 lines and doesn't come across as particularly heartfelt, meaningful or interesting.  Feels quite rote and check boxy.  E.g. the lion picture conversation, the afraid we'll be boring conversation, all the tiresome wedding planning issue of the week conversations!  The substance is lacking.  I like fluff too.  If I didn't, I wouldn't be watching a show like Castle, but we've just mostly had dull, paltry, tired versions of fluff in recent seasons and rarely truly entertaining, sexy, spicy fun fluff.

 

The dialogue also often comes across as clumsy and dumbed down, especially when it's exposition but often even when it's not.  I feel the show is not as intelligent as it once was, and when you compare Castle dialogue to dialogue on smarter, fresher procedurals like TGW or Elementary, the difference really shows.

 

Bottom line: it's tired, lazy, unimaginative writing.

Edited July 24, 2014 by madmaverick

[cappuccino]

 

Erik Altstadt @EAkorn  ·  35m

Not only are we almost done with episode 1 of season 7, you should see what we have in store for episode 2... #Castle #castlefans

Let me guess - someone dies.

Edited July 24, 2014 by cappuccino

[madmaverick]

Let me guess - someone dies.

And Lanie gets to talk about lividity. ;)

 

Anything that takes away from the uniqueness of their relationship (writer and muse) and what they have together is not something I wish to see.

 

I couldn't agree more.

Edited July 24, 2014 by madmaverick

[Sabs]

 There is no way no one would have found out Beckett was married when she joined the Police Academy.

 

 

Or the FBI.

[verdana]

As far as Beckett's one and done. Please. Castle is still her one and done. As stupid as it is she even forgot about Rogan. She didn't think she was married. She wasn't in love with him.

 

If you want to be upset about Rogan be upset that it defies the internal logic of the show. There is no way no one would have found out Beckett was married when she joined the Police Academy.

I am upset about that too don't worry and as the other poster mentioned she would have had to go through with the FBI checks too.  

 

And Castle cannot "still" be her one and done, that makes no sense given she's been married once before.

 

I don't take issue with the fact she probably wasn't in love with him but what they did erasing that with the Rogan bullshit was unnecessary and hurtful to fans who did care about it. 

[Tim]

Hal,  Agree with you, I don't have the time to invest in REAL life situations as much as some fans invest in not only Castle but other shows as well.  I love the show, don't always like all of every episode, think Marlowe is the luckiest SOB in the world when the CASTING director landed Stana and Nathan, love the on screen chemistry, could care less about who they go home to, and offer ABC one piece of advice, MUZZLE MILMAR from ever doing interviews again, that was the part that pissed me off more than the show, WHICH was right there on the top 5 list of STINKY episodes.  I think the writers looked the other way because The Boss and her Husband wrote it, or it never gets to production.

 

There is a thread started about our favorite shows, and I will not go there but anyone old enough to remember JFK in the White House can remember Dynasty and their foreign wars to protect some dignitaries.  But of course that was the beginning of the Weed Generation, Andrew and Terri would have fit in nicely with that time frame with FBOFW.  The shame of it all is that some great work has been done by them, why this piece of garbage, maybe we will never know.  I am tuning in for a few episodes to see if the salvage operation is on the right track, if not as Hal says I disappear from the boards and I find a new show to watch,

[verdana]

And Lanie gets to talk about lividity. ;)

 

Tamala can't wait to get back into the old routine I'm sure. 

[verdana]

The dialogue also often comes across as clumsy and dumbed down, especially when it's exposition but often even when it's not.  I feel the show is not as intelligent as it once was, and when you compare Castle dialogue to dialogue on smarter, fresher procedurals like TGW or Elementary, the difference really shows.

 

Bottom line: it's tired, lazy, unimaginative writing.

Yeah absolutely, I felt the show was just sharper, funnier and smarter back in the day and I wonder why did that change? Has to be the writers in the main although I would argue a contributing factor may be some of the cast are starting to get tired by the daily grind of filming. There are still some of the old school there and the showrunner is the same so what gives? It's as if they don't respect the basic intelligence of their audience to grasp things any more. I miss the subtle, quirky humor and interactions that took place between Castle, Beckett and his family where you learnt something about the characters along with the COTW.

 

What did we learn that was genuinely meaningful about Caskett and his family last season? And totally with you on the tick boxy nature of their discussions!  It feels very superficial and not really that interesting. The episode over the lion picture as a typical case in point of how far the writing has fallen down, it was boring and nothing important was discussed, a huge opportunity to nail some development in their relationship over their living arrangements goes begging. *sigh*  

Edited July 24, 2014 by verdana

[cappuccino]

Ruining the one and done thing was a stupid move but I'm not really that bugged by it. Castle's teasing was way overdone which didn't sit well with me but what pisses me really off is that they think the viewers/fans are stupid. So many background checks throughout Beckett's history and it never came up ? Maybe in the premiere we learn it was a set up but I don't really believe in that.

[oberon55]

Not realizing she was married for 15 years just makes her look stupid. Can you imagine her and Castle's reaction if they were interrogating a suspect that claimed they didn't know marriages in Las Vegas were real? Anyway you slice it they made her out to be a fool.

[Tim]

I am old enough to remember ORGANIC meant someone put a lot Bullshit on the garden not chemicals, and this was Bullshit, not Organic in anyway

[AntiBeeSpray]

Not realizing she was married for 15 years just makes her look stupid. Can you imagine her and Castle's reaction if they were interrogating a suspect that claimed they didn't know marriages in Las Vegas were real? Anyway you slice it they made her out to be a fool.

Yea and that really sucked :(. Making her look that way only makes the show look bad, along side the character. Not really looking forward to this upcoming season.

[madmaverick]

That 'oops I didn't realise I was married for real before' storyline would have been incredibly weak on any show (and really just screamed, "I'm all out of ideas!").  To be honest, I find it hard to believe that no one in the writers' room thought it was a ridiculous storyline for the character and for a finale wedding episode no less.  But probably no one said anything critical because it was the boss' idea (or the boss' wife), and you want to be kept on staff for next season, don't you? ;)  I feel confident Stana had a WTF reaction to the storyline.  They made Beckett out to be an idiot for laughs.  Finally Beckett gets a taste of the treatment of Castle, when they regularly make him an idiot for laughs.  The justification of 'taking Beckett down a peg' is ludicrous.  Let us hope no one gets taken down any more pegs next season when we unearth these supposedly unsettling new secrets about Castle otherwise this show will only sink further.  

Edited July 24, 2014 by madmaverick

[verdana]

It was huge plot hole and embarrassing for the writers.  I can't find a story that insults my basic intelligence and is completely implausible for the character to have done enjoyable. How MilMar thought it was a good idea especially with her stint at the FBI so fresh in everyone's minds God only knows. It felt like they didn't care and churned it out any way. 

[KaveDweller]

And Castle cannot "still" be her one and done, that makes no sense given she's been married once before.

 

Except she never thought she was married.  So, to her, Castle is the one person she chose to marry and commit to.

 

However, it was still a stupid storyline that made Beckett look like an idiot. Actually it made the NYPD and the FBI look dumb too, for not finding it in her background check.  

Edited July 24, 2014 by KaveDweller

[McManda]

McManda. As for Rise and the swings no I didn't understand that conversation really.

 

I sorta have a different (but similar) interpretation as halwiderman.

 

She tells Castle she and Josh broke up, even though she "really, really liked him". Then she says that after her mom died, she built a wall because she didn't want to hurt like that again and that she can't have the kind of relationship she wants until she works past that wall. To me we learn two things: first, that her mom's death damaged her more than just losing a parent. It damaged her ability to trust herself, because she wasn't comfortable letting herself get emotionally involved with anyone, even though she wanted to be (see: "I just want someone to dive in" of Setup/"with men you don't love" of Knockout) because she was afraid that they'd hurt her, too (see: "they just come in and upset the applecart" of Food to Die For). Even with someone that is less likely to hurt her (Josh) she still can't do it. So to even have a chance at making a relationship with Castle work, she has to fix herself, partly with therapy and partly with justice for her mom. (Of course, later she decides that between dying for that or just letting go, she decides to let do and then Always happens.) Second, she's saying that Josh wasn't enough. We know that Josh is pretty great, so why isn't he enough? Because at one point, she was willing to try things with Castle (see: the end of A Deadly Game) and at the end of the episode we find out that she remembers that he told her he loved her.

 

So yeah, I think it's pretty obvious that she was asking Castle to wait for her to try and fix herself before they could try a relationship. And the fact that she wanted to fix herself so they could try a relationship was a pretty big deal, and I think Castle realizes that. That's why even though he's still upset, he forgives her for staying away that summer. But I agree with halwiderman that this is the reason why Castle doesn't press her further - he's giving her the space she wants to try to fix herself but also helping as much as he can.

 

Oh and I just realised I was using your transcript to jog my memory McManda nice work I wouldn't relish having to do that every week.

 

Ha, thanks. It's definitely a labor of love ... sometimes more labor than love, and they don't go up as quickly now that I have a full time job, but it's mostly fun. :)

 

Subtext or actual text, my problem is that there seem to be fewer and fewer emotionally satisfying exchanges between the characters.  Or even sexy, witty exchanges. Yes, they've now incorporated more scenes of Castle and Beckett directly talking to each other in the loft.  But I've found most of them disappointing, to be honest.

 

This I would agree with. I think they've taken a far too heavy handed approach to the COTW ... and that sometimes they spend too much time of the COTW, almost to the point where it's boring. I'd gladly sacrifice an interrogation scene for something more meaningful or domestic or funny or unique.

[Tim]

I saw some Twitter Flames earlier but the Rampant in Marlowe I Trust BS is now ORGANIC fertilizer for the most part.  I am not an expert in this industry, but I would ask Hal and others who have worked in it to assess Stana's reaction to the finale.  Some of the interviews in Greece caught her a bit off guard and in one she said she doesn't even know where they could go from there, leaving it in Marlowe's hands.  As an executive for a great many years, I can say I would be worried about how much Stana took to heart, and how long it is going to take her to forget her character assignation in this episode.  She is not the unknown guest star coming into auditions as she was when this started and certainly has made plenty of contacts in the 7 years she has worked, so I think she will be the pivotal piece in determining IF the series goes past the contracts they currently have.  I don't know which of the two geniuses Terri or Andrew decided to bring he down a peg, my guess was TM but we will never really know.  I think that if AM and TM took the script to their HS Drama Coaches they would never have filmed it, YES it is that BAD if you enjoyed God Bless not me still airing the TV room out from the Stench

Should of used Spell Check   Should read Character Assassination

[McManda]

I am not an expert in this industry, but I would ask Hal and others who have worked in it to assess Stana's reaction to the finale.  Some of the interviews in Greece caught her a bit off guard and in one she said she doesn't even know where they could go from there, leaving it in Marlowe's hands.  As an executive for a great many years, I can say I would be worried about how much Stana took to heart, and how long it is going to take her to forget her character assignation in this episode.

 

My opinion (which admittedly means nothing) is that Stana didn't have any giant qualms about the fact that Beckett was married, or at least she trusted tptb to come up with something, because she strikes me as the kind of actress to ask questions and try to find motivation and understand the story.

 

As far as the interviews in Greece catching her off guard, I don't think that's anything more than her just really not knowing what direction they're going to go in because that cliffhanger was literally out of thin air. I mean, she could say that Castle's obviously not dead (except I don't know if tptb would want her to, given that is supposed to be part of the cliffhanger, I guess). She probably didn't know at that point if they were going to just go with him being kidnapped, or if they were going to let Beckett think he was dead, and she couldn't even really speculate on WHO was in the car that drove him off the road.

 

It's not like previous seasons, where she could give interviews about how she's excited to see how Beckett is going to deal with her shooting, both physically and mentally, and how that's going to impact her relationship with work, Castle, or her coworkers. Or how she's excited to explore a new side of her relationship with Castle now that he and Beckett are together, or how people will react, or how their relationship with impact there work.

 

Simply put - there was nothing for her to say because there wasn't much for her to expound on.

[verdana]

 

So yeah, I think it's pretty obvious that she was asking Castle to wait for her to try and fix herself before they could try a relationship. And the fact that she wanted to fix herself so they could try a relationship was a pretty big deal, and I think Castle realizes that. That's why even though he's still upset, he forgives her for staying away that summer. But I agree with halwiderman that this is the reason why Castle doesn't press her further - he's giving her the space she wants to try to fix herself but also helping as much as he can.

 

Thanks for coming back with the explanation. However, if she asking him to wait for her whilst she heals and he's understands and accepts that (because he forgives her and doesn't push) what was going on in The Limey during her conversation with Lanie? Because she acts like this conversation and the supposed understanding they reached here never happened.

 

Lanie tells her he probably got tired of waiting and Kate says "for what?" How can she by that stage not know exactly what he's been waiting for as she was the one who told him to wait in Rise? Lanie then gets her to admit she's crazy about him as much as he's crazy about her but then Kate says "do you think he knows?". How could he not know when during their conversation in Rise she's admitted Josh was not enough and Rick's the guy she wants to try and start a relationship with? If they both understood each other then yeah of course he knows at the very least that she has feelings for him not of the BFF variety even if she's not said the big ILY yet. I have to come to the conclusion that what was supposedly clearly understood between them in Rise wasn't really as clear as some thought. That scene in the Limey and Kate's reactions to Lanie's questioning make no sense to me at all. 

 

 

[verdana]

I'm sure Stana didn't take any big issue with what happened with anyone, she's hardly the diva type. I'd like to think though given the obvious care she shows towards Beckett and her trajectory that she had a brief "what is this shit?" moment in private to herself when she opened the script and found Kate had acquired a secret husband. I doubt TPTB are going to deal with the Rogan business they want that dumb plot hole to be forgotten about fast so Stana doesn't have to worry about it. At least she knows where she stands now in terms of Beckett and that anything goes with the writers story wise so she can't be disappointed if it happens again. 

Molly C. Quinn @MollyQuinn93  ·  3h
“@bonniegrrl: @MollyQuinn93: are you here at w00tstock? We're backstage if ya wanna say hi! ;-)”
I wish! In LA Filming #Castle

 

Please to see Molly filming, hopefully that means a juicy moment with Beckett over Castle's disappearance or an emotional, heart wrenching reunion scene. I don't just want to see the moment Kate finds Castle I want to see all of them meeting up after he's been located not have it happen off screen.  If the writers can't find a way to make Alexis relevant in an episode about her father being missing/presumed dead then there really is no hope for her character, they should write her out the show completely or reduce further her agreed appearances. 

Tamala and Molly together so may be some scenes with her too? 

Tamala Jones @tamalajones  ·  2h
#lookathersweet mollyquinn93 #mylove #mybabysis

http://instagram.com/p/q3HO2aN0yY/

 

Edited July 25, 2014 by verdana

[oberon55]

 

However, if she asking him to wait for her whilst she heals and he's understands and accepts that (because he forgives her and doesn't push) what was going on in The Limey during her conversation with Lanie? Because she acts like this conversation and the supposed understanding they reached here never happened.

 

To me it seems this way because they are not telling a story that progresses in logical increments. Everything remains basically the same until some traumatic event causes seemingly forward movement. Which as often as not is mostly undone or ignored in future episodes. It's all about the illusion of change & growth rather than any real change. The conversation at the swings had one goal & that was to get Beckett & Castle back to status quo (solving crimes) without truly advancing their relationship. It was nothing but a heavy handed attempt to ignore Castle's confession of love for another season. Once that was accomplished it was as if it never happened. They just jogged in place until the next over the top game changer occurred.

[Nadine]

Alrick Riley will be directing the second episode (credit StudioSystem). He's directed some of my favourite English dramas, so am looking forward to see what he brings to Marlowe's script.

They'll be doing some filming at Raleigh on Monday.

Edited July 28, 2014 by Nadine

[verdana]

Oberon. I agree with your assessment. There was no genuine forward momentum in their relationship after that conversation aside from a brief moment after Cops & Robbers when I thought something should have happened to advance their relationship in a big way - that for me would have been the natural trigger event to them deciding to get together given how positively it played out.  However, instead the season dragged on aimlessly until 47 seconds and the start of the douchebag arc. And even then despite all the angst and drama they both went through nothing much changed, looking back Marlowe was just dragging things out for a few more episodes until the finale.   I think they could have dealt with her "walls" much quicker and got them together mid season with no problem. 

 

I wish they would dial back on every major progression in their relationship happening due to some life threatening or dramatic situation occurring. The ILY comes out when she gets shot, they get together when she almost gets killed again, she wants to leave her job and move to another city he promptly proposes, they try and get married she finds a secret husband and then he gets run off the road and taken (?) before it can happen. I realise it's a TV show so there has to be regular drama but it feels rather forced and predictable because I know unless something big happens the writers will make them tread water for as long as its necessary. 

Edited July 25, 2014 by verdana

[McManda]

However, if she asking him to wait for her whilst she heals and he's understands and accepts that (because he forgives her and doesn't push) what was going on in The Limey during her conversation with Lanie? Because she acts like this conversation and the supposed understanding they reached here never happened.

 

Her conversation with Lanie was Beckett being a girl? Beckett freaks out over the idea that Castle might not be open to waiting anymore, because in the previous episode  they both were dancing around the fact that maybe they don't have all the time in the world so why not now, until Castle brushes her off and says he's tired and he has to go home. So Lanie calls her bluff and says that everyone knows he likes her and she likes him too, so maybe he's tired of waiting for her to be whatever she thinks she needs to be. And Beckett realizes that maybe Lanie is right, that she can't expect Castle to be patient and wait forever, especially when she hasn't given him anything real to wait for since she alluded to wanting to fix herself first. Except when she tries to do something about it, Castle shows up with a flight attendant and proceeds to be a jerk about it.

 

At that point, Beckett hadn't quite fully accepted the implications of what she wanted. I think she's still falling back into grade school arguments with Lanie because it hits too close to home ('you like him!/what, no I don't!') until Lanie presses harder, and then she turns it around and tries to brush it off ('okay yes, but it doesn't matter, he doesn't like me/please, look at him, yes he does'). She's searching for validation from her friend that it's okay to let herself be vulnerable, that maybe even if she's not perfect being in a relationship with Castle won't hurt her like she's afraid of.

 

And the bad timing of Castle hearing Beckett confess that she had heard his ILY makes him think that he had gotten her subtext wrong, that maybe she wasn't talking about wanting to fix herself before they could have a relationship makes him do dumb things. I only sort of blame him because he thought he had been played as a fool and was hurt about it, but he could have handled it better.

 

And I think they do need those big events to progress their big relationship milestones, if solely because these are characters that don't open themselves up well otherwise. Castle needed that threat of Beckett dying to first say ILY, because in that moment it didn't matter what happened, it just mattered that he thought it might be the only time he'd get to say it and that was more important than the fallout. Beckett needed to realize that her mom's case could very well kill her and if her choices were death alone at the hands of her mom's case or shelving it for a chance at a normal life with Castle, a normal life with Castle wins. I like that they're forced into a decision, that outside events put their lives in prospective, otherwise we'd be watching another season and a half of no mention that they'd slept together (I'm looking at you, Bones [even if that was only a few episodes or whatever]) and then another season of them as friends with benefits but wanting more and people would be complaining that the show stalled out.

[KaveDweller]

Lanie tells her he probably got tired of waiting and Kate says "for what?" How can she by that stage not know exactly what he's been waiting for as she was the one who told him to wait in Rise?

 

Except she wasn't really confused about what Lanie meant.  She was just trying to avoid admitting anything out loud to Lanie.  Wasn't Lanie's response to that basically, "girl, you know exactly what. You guy's are into each other did you think no one knows that?" 

 

I also think everything that happened during that whole end of season arc, was Beckett and Castle both thinking that they'd been wrong on the swings and the other one didn't want to be together.  So they were both miserable, but ultimately figured it out. I know it's unpopular but I liked the end of season 4.

Edited July 25, 2014 by KaveDweller

[Nadine]

Except she wasn't really confused about what Lanie meant.  She was just trying to avoid admitting anything out loud to Lanie.  Wasn't Lanie's response to that basically, "girl, you know exactly what. You guy's are into each other did you think no one knows that?" 

 

I also think everything that happened during that whole end of season arc, was Beckett and Castle both thinking that they'd been wrong on the swings and the other one didn't want to be together.  So they were both miserable, but ultimately figured it out. I know it's unpopular but I liked the end of season 4.

 

Even though the storyline annoyed me at times (purely it was more one of those "just talk to each other" dammit moments), I actually loved the storylines that were in those episodes. IMO there was a lot of miscommunication / crossed wires that occurred during the arc - Martha I think mentioned that in 47 Seconds when she said just talk to her - but when he was given the chance at the end of the episode Castle chose not to do it, which led to second guessing their initial feelings/thoughts, etc.

[Samantha84]

Michael Ausiello interviewed Nathan at Comic Com .. will be available soon. 

[verdana]

Even though the storyline annoyed me at times (purely it was more one of those "just talk to each other" dammit moments), I actually loved the storylines that were in those episodes. IMO there was a lot of miscommunication / crossed wires that occurred during the arc - Martha I think mentioned that in 47 Seconds when she said just talk to her - but when he was given the chance at the end of the episode Castle chose not to do it, which led to second guessing their initial feelings/thoughts, etc.

 

 

I'm with Martha he just needed to talk to her. She can be a wise woman sometimes. I know a lot of fans enjoyed S4 for the relationship drama as it played out but for me it was a total drag, I only enjoyed Cops & Robbers and the last five or ten minutes of Always and then I'm struggling to find anything uplifting about that season.

 

If one character refuses to speak to another for no good reason that's contrived writing in my book. And S4 was full of that, they couldn't talk because....well they just couldn't. It got tiresome real fast, after all they had been through I figured it was about time they started communicating honestly and openly. It had been months of not saying anything and yet when it came down to it they still couldn't fight for what they both supposedly wanted so very very much. The writers spent a lot of time having the characters act like tongue tied teenagers but I didn't buy into it, they're not that backward emotionally. 

 

During the douchebag arc (47 seconds to Undead Again) I got fed up of Kate talking to everyone else but the one man she should be talking to and looking all worried and upset but not quite worried enough to have it out with the man she was falling in love with. I lost all sympathy for her being so bloody passive about everything, I don't care how much of a prick he was being just get on with it and find out what's going on, she couldn't be made any more miserable since she already thought he was going cold on her and about to leave. Then allowing Rick to misunderstand her feelings and keep that going by then turning him into a total douche with Jacinda and hooking up with Slaughter when they could have made him much more sympathetic (because I did feel sorry for him to start off with) was a real turn off and so frustrating.

 

Marlowe can't write these two having serious relationship issues without making them appear stupid and mean. Although perhaps he's learning or more likely he realised that fans were growing tired of their constant failure to communicate. That's why for all the superficial wedding planning S6 had to offer and that shitty finale I'd take it any time over a season of secrets and lies and watching two people refusing to communicate with each other for no other reason than they needed to keep the WTWT going for another 20 odd episodes.  

 

And if S4 proved anything it was that having so called "discussions" using subtext is a really crap way of communicating with someone you supposedly care for.

 

 

 

 

Thanks Samantha for the heads up. I see the plaid is back again. Not sure how much stock to put in what Nathan may tease about 7.01 given he said the finale would be "a little lighter" and we know what happened there. Heh.

 

He's going to have a busy weekend no doubt.

Nathan Fillion spotted at WireCafe (SDCC)

Edited July 25, 2014 by verdana

[McManda]

If one character refuses to speak to another for no good reason that's contrived writing in my book. And S4 was full of that, they couldn't talk because....well they just couldn't.

 

I'm a pretty non-confrontational person, so it's pretty normal for me to not talk to people, even when I should and it's not awkward or a hard situation. It's even harder when it is something big, so Castle and Beckett not talking - at a stage in their relationship where they were friends not wanting to upset the balance of their friendship - rings pretty true to me. MMV I guess. I didn't have a problem with it. I don't think it's the tightest writing, but I actually like the end of S4.

[Samantha84]

Nathan's interview w. Ausiello 

[WendyCR72]

The man must feel naked without his plaid. I wonder if it's a Canadian thing as a soap actor I liked also is big on plaid. Hmm!

[cappuccino]

He was on his first panel at NerdHQ just now ---- Zachary Levi and mystery guests. Really funny group.

[McManda]

I love the NerdHQ panels, so I'm looking forward to watching them this year. Good to know to check out the Zach Levi + friends one, too. (But I'm currently watching the Zach Levi (alone) one, because he's fun to watch, too.)

 

Fun HQ fact - there was a stipulation on the NerdHQ page that you could only buy tickets to one Nathan Fillion panel, and if you both tickets to both all your tickets would be voided. But there was no such stipulation on the Zach Levi panels. Makes me think Nathan's the super popular one. (If that's a thing at NerdHQ. All their panels sell out anyway.)

[verdana]

Thanks Samantha.

 

Nathan's good at talking without actually talking about anything really. I find you don't learn much about what's going on with the show but he's fun to watch.

 

"New mythology" dear God I'm going to be sick to death of that term by the end of S7 no doubt. Andrew's been overworked. Doing what exactly? Finding new ways to stave off the wedding I suppose.

 

What now? Indeed Nathan what now....sounds like they're all out of ideas to me based on what I've heard so far.  

 

Glad Nathan admitted how much longer can you make people wait (for a wedding) without getting bored in the waiting - good question. I sense Marlowe will be testing that limit. 

 

Ausiello asked NF any shows you love that he'd like to guest star on (Ausiello suggests Game of Thrones I'd love to see that!) and he mentions that he's pretty picky about what he watches. He's very particular about the acting, writing choices, acting and production values etc and if it's not good and takes him out of the moment then he doesn't enjoy it. This made me wonder given that fact what his immediate reaction is when reading the latest Castle script and seeing what's coming out.

 

I sense Nathan is bracing himself for yet more fun storytelling to come in S7.  Like the way he deftly dodges around the question on how long the show will go on for, that's one question which is going to keep resurfacing no doubt with contracts coming up for renewal. 

Edited July 26, 2014 by verdana

[Sonik Tooth]

I'm building all my hope on this new mythology to bring some new life into the show. And I disagree that the time of the wedding plays a crucial part in boredom vs. non-boredom. Just as before the engagement and after the engagement didn't make much of difference.

If you are unsatisfied/bored with the COTW, the exploration of the characters, continuity or other things that make a good TV show for you, the wedding won't change anything. I guess it would be more like instant gratification without longer duration if everything else stays the same. At least in my opinion.

That Mystery Panel was a hoot! I like it when the participants go off the main question and start to fool around. Fillion was great and I was just a little bit fangirling to see him next to Colin Ferguson:-) Same old plaid, but I liked the shoes this time which were shortly on display after he came back out of the closet with Taran Killam. Judging from the cheers he got when being introduced by Zach, I bet a lot of ppl in the audience were hoping that he would be part of the Mystery Panel as he eas the years before.

On a side note/rant (maybe cappuccino will understand): Thank you GEMA and Google for making it impossible to access free not copyright protected content in good faith. Maybe you should ask the GEZ to join in your secret contract negotiations, so that at least the live streaming part is covered with my money.

[verdana]

I'm not pinning my hopes on this new mythology. I find the writing is getting progressively worse each season and the show is showing clear signs of a steady decline but I could be wrong. May be this will freshen things up and give the writers the creative kick start they need but words are cheap it's what I see on my screen that counts. If next season genuinely sheds more light on Castle as a character that can only be a good thing after years of neglect. 

 

I couldn't care less if they get married, makes no difference to how I see them as a couple. I never thought Marlowe would take them to this stage as quickly as he did, I thought he would drag the engagement out much longer which goes to show what I know. I think they should have got married in 6.23 it made sense at that point. However, it's never been a priority but I understand that for others it's the focus of their attention right now and they don't care about much else.  I don't feel any sympathy for TPTB if this wedding business comes back to bite them on the arse, they made a rod for their own backs doing what they did last season they've only got themselves to blame.

Edited July 26, 2014 by verdana

[cappuccino]

If someone is interested in another round of panels

 

https://www.facebook.com/thenerdmachine/photos/a.158488904190195.27767.154740797898339/775547035817709/?type=1&theater

 

Nathan is participating again today. You can watch the panels live on youtube https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0JBkXHIa5Co_Jx4Q-2ukTg

[Samantha84]

Am I the only person hoping Stana attends the badass women mystery panel? 100% sure she won't but a girl can dream, right? Stana's probably somewhere reading Russian literature or something. lol. 

 

ETA: Hoping Zach pulled some strings and got Missy Peregyrm [Andy; Rookie Blue], too. ;-}

Edited July 26, 2014 by Samantha84

[FlickerToAFlame]

Full video of the Levi plus mystery guests panel

[madmaverick]

Am I the only person hoping Stana attends the badass women mystery panel? 100% sure she won't but a girl can dream, right? Stana's probably somewhere reading Russian literature or something. lol.

 

I would love that, but yeah, never going to happen.  Maybe when Castle's over?  I'm not sure Zach did a panel with just him and the female lead from Chuck when the show was on; i think they had issues with real life shipping too, but obviously that's solved with the show being over and Zach married heh.

 

Stana can do a Russian accent but I don't think she's fluent in the language though.  Beckett yes, Stana no.  

 

The man must feel naked without his plaid. I wonder if it's a Canadian thing as a soap actor I liked also is big on plaid.

 

LOL.  I think the plaid is just the easy go to for guys who don't think a lot about what to wear. I admit to wanting to see him in something different for a change though.  There should be more flattering looks for him out there.

I thought the TV Line interview was fine.  Nice to have some dedicated, not too frivolous (compared to what we're used to! ;)) questions about Castle directed at Nathan.  And I thought he came across as fairly honest (diplomatic as well) about the show, which I prefer to meaninglessly throwing around the overused (overrated) 'fun', 'organic', 'mythology'.  I'm glad that he brought up the question of how long people can be made to wait for a wedding and not wanting people to become bored in the process (note to AM: it already happened last season ;)). 

 

Whether they got married or not was never a huge deal to me, but now that the characters have made the promise in the show, there should be a payoff without undue delay (too late!).  The challenge is to keep writing interesting stories (these can be interesting everyday stories, AM!) for the characters, married or not, but they seem to have been really struggling for story.  They are often treading water for an entire season without meaningful development except at the beginning and the end.  What now? Perhaps the answer to that from AM is to really go 'out there', to unbelievable, inorganic places.

 

Nathan comes across as a discerning viewer when it comes to his entertainment, and basically he has standards when it comes to writing and production values.  He, and the rest of the cast, I imagine, must realise that the writing on Castle is mediocre at best, and has been so for several seasons.  Especially having worked with a wordsmith like Joss Whedon.  There are a few rare exceptions every season, but for the most part, it's middling stuff.  But as an actor in the business for almost 20 years, he probably also knows that this is the norm for a lot of work in Hollywood.  It's rare that the artistic stars can all align.

 

Same old plaid, but I liked the shoes this time which were shortly on display after he came back out of the closet with Taran Killam.

 

The last bit of your sentence just made me laugh all over again.  The closet bit was funny and there was a fair bit of hoyay subtext going on throughout!  I also laughed at Nathan's boyband name "Wildcard" lol, his reasons for loving beef carpaccio, and his mouthing the words from that other guy on the panel whose name escapes me right now and who was pretty funny as well.   Nerd HQ panels are fun and it's great that it's for charity.

 

And oh yeah, shocking, no NB sneakers this time heh.  Or maybe they are a less branded model.  I actually have nothing against NB sneakers and favour comfort over style, but surely there's some comfortable but more stylish footwear out there than those pairs he's sported in the past.  They just really stick out lol.

 

I do wonder about the endless number of requests celebrities must get from fans to do or say something that the fans want!  Kind of puts the person on the spot imo, and you risk coming off as a bad sport if you don't go along with it even if you don't really want to.  There was a request on the panel for Nathan to say something specific to the questioner's friend, and didn't someone ask for a kiss at a con?  I read that an actor from the Game of Thrones had countless requests to squeeze his head (relating to a scene on the show), which....c'mon, people!

 

Alan Tudyk just told a story at his panel about how he and Nathan were once playing Halo at some promotional event and Justin Bieber's entourage came up to them asking them to leave because Justin needed the room, and Nathan replied, "not going to happen" lol.  Good for him.

Edited July 26, 2014 by madmaverick

[cappuccino]

What an awesome panel and those people were crazy and loaded with cash. Loved it.

 

No plaid ... shocking *lol*

 

And of course someone took note on the Alan Tudyk panel and continued the Bieber interogation :D

 

Edited July 27, 2014 by cappuccino

[FlickerToAFlame]

One of the items Nathan auctioned off was a Richard Castle hospital bracelet, but it's not clear if it's from last week or something else, like Dreamworld.

[Samantha84]

No Stana on the badass women mystery panel [not a shocker] but Missy was there! 

It was a GREAT panel. Funny and also had great questions and answers about women in the industry. You'll should check it out: A Conversation with Badass Women Mystery Guests! 

Props to Zach and his team -- raising so much money for Operation Smile.