The Writers of OUAT: Because, Um, Magic, That's Why

[Mathius]

Yeah, thankfully they did read Barrie's Hook since even as Hook, Killian still values good form and "being a gentleman", even though he often fails to live up to that, which was what Barrie's Hook was all about, it was a contradiction that constantly plagued him.

Edited July 26, 2016 by Mathius

[Shanna Marie]

6 hours ago, Mathius said:

Tiger Lily actually wasn't ever in bitchy mean girl mode, she never interacts with Wendy.  And the mermaids turned up after Hook first showed up.

Shows you how much I remember! But I didn't mean bitchy to Wendy, just that there seemed to be a lot of jealousy over Peter, like all the girls in the story were good for was being impressed with Peter. I just know that the last time I tried to watch that movie, it bothered me enough to have to turn it off, and I'm not normally sensitive to sexism in entertainment (heck, it didn't even register on me that there weren't any female characters in The Hobbit in spite of having read it multiple times until the movies came out and people were talking about it). They've done some work to update the stage musical to make it less offensive on multiple levels, but the Disney movie has not aged well at all.

Anyway, I'm still not sure I give the writers here credit for using Barrie to create Hook. Hook's gallantry seems to have been more in the way Colin portrayed him (and we know he did his reading) at first, and it only gradually became written into the story as the writers picked up on Colin's version of Hook and ran with it. The "good form" is a fairly well-known character trait associated with Hook -- it even shows up as a crossword puzzle answer relating to clues about Captain Hook every so often. If the writers went with their usual level of depth in using mythology, it was probably on the level of "has a hook for a hand, has a beef with a crocodile, has a hot temper, and talks about good form." They certainly didn't go with any of the stuff about him possibly being the illegitimate son of royalty and educated at Eton. I guess they could always come up with more specifics about why, exactly, Brennan was on the run with his boys and who their family really was to get back to that concept, but they still wouldn't have the upper-crust education part in there. Well, unless they pull another retcon and reveal that baby Killian was pulled off that ship and sent to boarding school before being sent back to finish out his indentured servitude.

[KingOfHearts]

I like when this show played with the audience's expectations. For example, in 1x04, we saw the Fairy Godmother and thought they were doing the standard retelling of Cinderella. But then she suddenly blew up and Rumple stepped in, giggling. Another instance would be in 4B when we thought Cruella was going to be woobified. Instead, she was just evil through and through. That's one of Once's major pillars - taking something you expect or think you know, then turning it into something completely different. I wish the writers would do that more and stop the eyeroll-worthy moments of predictability. 

[Camera One]

They can't do it more, because they're already continually trying to do the opposite of what they predict to be the audience's expectations.  These attempts are totally hit-and-miss, and every time they fail, it feels predictable and contrived.  Making these surprise twists the main goal is arguably one of the biggest problems with their writing.  I didn't appreciate the fairy godmother exploding because it was ultimately meaningless and did not develop the mythology, plus the Cinderella "adaptation" was a lame-o prop for Rumple.  The Cruella one was good though obviously very carefully planned out by giving us the Ursula sob story first.  To me, all this just shows their preoccupation with plot twists, over any sustained effort to worldbuild or to create organic character arcs that fit with the plot rather than the other way around.

Edited July 29, 2016 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

I'm just going to put this quote from Adam here with no comment:

"I think it’s the Once Upon a Time tone, which is to say that dark things happen but it never gets bleak, which is the difference we always draw."

[Camera One]

Hello, welcome to this week's installment of "What He Said" vs "What We Really Meant"!

Karen Didier ‏@DidierKaren  

@AdamHorowitzLA We base our theories on what we WANT to see! STOP changing the story when we guess CORRECTLY!
"Every Time the audience starts to figure out the show, you want to change it," creator Eddy Kitsis tells THR

Adam Horowitz   @AdamHorowitzLA

@DidierKaren we don't. That's a slightly misleading quote. Eddy meant we want to surprise audience not that we literally change

[Rumsy4]

How can it be a misleading quote when it is an actual quote? A&E give these blaze replies in interviews and cons because they think they are so clever, and Eddy puts his foot in his mouth, and then Adam has to backtrack. :-p 

[Rumsy4]

Every time I watch a well-written TV show, I'm astounded by the huge difference in quality with ONCE. One of the main issues in the writing for ONCE is that it is so obviously forced, and things are seldom allowed to develop naturally. A little less plot and a little more room to breathe would improve the Show so much!

[Amerilla]

The real mystery this season is going to be if these yahoos can even plot a continuous 22-episode season anymore. For three years now, they've leaned on not even two 11-episode arcs, but 9-episode arcs with a vaguely-connected two-part half-season finale.  To follow one main story across an entire season?  It's going to be like a muscle that's atrophied from disuse. I don't mean to sound uncharitable, but I think it's going to make their flaws, their resistance to character over plot, repetitive monologue over dialog, so much more apparent that the switch could end up being the death knell of the show. 

[Curio]

7 hours ago, Amerilla said:

The real mystery this season is going to be if these yahoos can even plot a continuous 22-episode season anymore. For three years now, they've leaned on not even two 11-episode arcs, but 9-episode arcs with a vaguely-connected two-part half-season finale.  To follow one main story across an entire season?  It's going to be like a muscle that's atrophied from disuse. I don't mean to sound uncharitable, but I think it's going to make their flaws, their resistance to character over plot, repetitive monologue over dialog, so much more apparent that the switch could end up being the death knell of the show. 

I completely agree. I've seen a lot of people cheer the return to a full Season 1ish 22-episode season, but I remember a good portion of Season 1's episodes being totally filler and useless as well. Cutting the arcs down to 11 episodes probably did more good than bad, but the writers just didn't know how to properly pace things or do simple techniques that would have made the separate arcs more continuous and cohesive over the years. Some of the best shows on television right now only have 6-12 episodes per season, so I think switching to the 22-episode season is going to show more flaws in the long run. I could see Season 6 looking very much like Season 2 by the time it's done with too many new characters, too many random plots that never get fully resolved, and a clunky overall theme that doesn't tie all the different events together logically.

Edited August 3, 2016 by Curio

[KingOfHearts]

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but I remember a good portion of Season 1's episodes being totally filler and useless as well

S1 drags considerably in the middle. Regardless of anyone's opinion of the Kathryn murder arc, the show still detracted a lot from its main plot. It got tedious seeing Regina victorious, Snow and Charming constantly separated for whatever reason, and Emma being ignorant of what was really going on. But, on the flip side, the finale was such a payoff with all the angst it resolved. Regina lost, Snowing were reunited, and Emma broke the curse. All the time having to watch episodes like Dreamy and Fruit of the Poisonous Tree isn't really worth it upon rewatch, though.

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I could see Season 6 looking very much like Season 2 by the time it's done with too many new characters, too many random plots that never get fully resolved, and a clunky overall theme that doesn't tie all the different events together logically.

Might be unpopular opinion, but I thought the writers knocked it out of the park with 2A. Considering all they had to balance (Storybrooke + Team Princess + flashbacks), it's done pretty well. With everyone going on, there were still plenty of good character moments. The length of 9 episodes was just right for the arc, although we could have gone without Child of the Moon. I would keep everything else.

In 2B, the writers had zero idea of what they were doing. After Cora died, the whole show crashed and burned. It wasn't so much that they were trying to stuff in a lot of new characters, but the storylines they chose were either weak or underdeveloped. The Home Office was an interesting idea, but had bad execution. I enjoyed Lacey, but it was dropped and didn't have the consequences it should have. I'm positive the writers knew everything they introduced in 2B amounted to a trainwreck, so they reset as much they could going into 3A. (With Neal as the exception. He gets dropped later.)
 

The proposed S6 format reminds me of S4. We're getting an overload of new characters, a loose theme, and the main characters are taking a backseat to random shenanigans that have no lasting impact. Hyde/EQ/Jafar are the Queens of Darkness, Regina's split is Operation Mongoose, Rumple's quest to wake Belle is the Hat thing,

Spoiler

Hook's getting another Ursula/Ariel betrayal, and Aladdin is Elsa.

[Camera One]

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 I've seen a lot of people cheer the return to a full Season 1ish 22-episode season, but I remember a good portion of Season 1's episodes being totally filler and useless as well.

Yes, and in Season 1, I didn't mind these "filler" episodes as much, because they actually helped to develop specific characters like Emma, or key relationships like Emma/Mary Margaret.   Now, in Season 6, the fillers would be akin to "The Bear King" or would consist of retcons that actively damage characters, while significant character moments between Emma/Snow will not get more than a cumulative 5 minutes in the entirety of Season 6 (more like 30 seconds if we go by what we saw in Season 5).  

In many ways, the pacing of Season 1 was no different from the pacing of the half-season arcs.  The heroes chase their tails on pointless side plots for 8 episodes, and then everything pretty much happens in 2 episodes, and then we get some setup for the next half season.  Just like in Season 1, in the single finale episode, Emma finally believed, finally contended with Regina/Rumple knowing their true identities, finally saw who her parents truly were, finally fought a magical creature, we finally saw the moments leading up to Charming's TLK With Snow, AND magic was brought back AND everyone's memories came back.  

Season 6's pacing will be no different.  22 episodes for Regina to figure out the obvious about the The Evil Queen is 22 episodes too many.

Edited August 2, 2016 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

I believe that the writers had originally planned to break the curse in episode 16, but the network pushed it back. This led to massive wheel spinning on Emma's belief and for the plot in general. I think the network was right to make the curse breaking the finale as a lead in for S2. I assume they expected the fallout to be what we'd get in S2 instead of Team Princess and no actual dealing with the issues set up in S1. Their problem occurred because I don't think the writers knew what to do to spread things out and instead we got no real movement until their go to style of the finale dump where everything happens at once.

Edited August 2, 2016 by KAOS Agent

[Camera One]

I believe that the writers had originally planned to break the curse in episode 16, but the network pushed it back.

But would Emma believing AND breaking the Curse have also happened in that Episode 16?  If so, the same problem would have occurred.

The bigger issue was we never got to see Emma making a gradual journey of belief.  She came close in the Mad Hatter episode and by the next episode, it was square one.  

And by having Emma believe and have the Curse break in the same episode (and to have Regina know that Emma believed also in the same episode), it robbed us of seeing Emma navigate the world of Storybrooke and seeing her parents, Regina, etc. with full knowledge and belief.

Any way you slice it, the pacing sucked.

[KAOS Agent]

I'm not saying that it would have been better necessarily, just that they were told to extend the curse for an an additional six episodes, which meant a lot more filler that they hadn't planned on was needed.

[YaddaYadda]

I liked Josh's comment during SDCC in one of the interviews. He said that he (and the others who were there during season 1 agreed with him) was surprised that the curse was broken so quickly because he assumed that breaking the curse was the endgame of the show where it would be the last thing that would happen. 

I thought it was the endgame too since everyone was supposed to return to the Enchanted Forest when that happened, so I guess the curse isn't completely broken, season 5 curse seems to still be in place though teenagers and the adults going after them can leave town.

This show is so confusing!

[TheGreenKnight]

I actually never thought that. I figured the longest it would go is through the end of the second season at most. Honestly, I think they did it best by ripping the bandaid off in the season 1 finale. That way the show wouldn't get stuck in a rut and people wouldn't come to expect it to always be one way. There was only so long they could stretch out the Henry-tries-to-convince-Emma-to-believe plot.

On ‎8‎/‎2‎/‎2016 at 0:18 PM, Curio said:

I could see Season 6 looking very much like Season 2 by the time it's done with too many new characters, too many random plots that never get fully resolved, and a clunky overall theme that doesn't tie all the different events together logically.

I've been expecting the same thing. I think this might be a little better than season 2 just because they obviously weren't sure what to do after breaking the curse, but not by much.

On ‎8‎/‎2‎/‎2016 at 2:20 PM, KAOS Agent said:

I believe that the writers had originally planned to break the curse in episode 16, but the network pushed it back. This led to massive wheel spinning on Emma's belief and for the plot in general. I think the network was right to make the curse breaking the finale as a lead in for S2. I assume they expected the fallout to be what we'd get in S2 instead of Team Princess and no actual dealing with the issues set up in S1. Their problem occurred because I don't think the writers knew what to do to spread things out and instead we got no real movement until their go to style of the finale dump where everything happens at once.

Too bad those executives couldn't have forced them to put "The Miller's Daughter" off until the season 2 finale. The show really collapsed after Cora was dead since most of the plot in 2A was built around her (the woman who made Regina what she is and who would wreak havoc if she made it to Storybrooke, etc.). Cora would be a much stronger villain if we'd actually got to see her inflict damage on the heroes/Storybrooke instead of dying almost as soon as she got there.

Edited August 3, 2016 by TheGreenKnight
"Wreak," not "reek."

[Shanna Marie]

I can't imagine how they'd have sustained the show with the curse for much longer than they did. What I'd guessed was that the memory part might have been broken, and then the series ending would be breaking the rest of it and sending everyone home. That still could be what happens, and with Henry being the Author now, he shouldn't be stuck in our world when the curse is undone. Isaac managed to commute between worlds. Or Henry could throw a few coins in a fountain to open a portal.

In general, I'd say that pacing is one of their biggest weaknesses. Either not enough happens, or too much happens. I suspect a lot of that has to do with their emphasis on surprise twists. They're so worried about making sure that the element of surprise is retained that they're afraid to do any set up or build up, but then that means there's not much going on before the surprise is revealed. Then because they think the surprise is the only important thing, they forget to show the consequences of the twist. So what we get is a ton of wheel spinning that ultimately doesn't matter all that much, then a big surprise twist all of a sudden at the end with lots of stuff happening all at once, and then it cuts off abruptly and lurches forward to the next story with no wrap up or follow through.

[Curio]

1 minute ago, Shanna Marie said:

In general, I'd say that pacing is one of their biggest weaknesses. Either not enough happens, or too much happens. I suspect a lot of that has to do with their emphasis on surprise twists. They're so worried about making sure that the element of surprise is retained that they're afraid to do any set up or build up, but then that means there's not much going on before the surprise is revealed. Then because they think the surprise is the only important thing, they forget to show the consequences of the twist. So what we get is a ton of wheel spinning that ultimately doesn't matter all that much, then a big surprise twist all of a sudden at the end with lots of stuff happening all at once, and then it cuts off abruptly and lurches forward to the next story with no wrap up or follow through.

This is why the show has only a few outstanding episodes, but the majority of the episodes are all fairly bland or ultimately meaningless in the grand scheme of things. The few amazing episodes keep me watching year after year, and the boring majority keeps me addicted to these forums.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

Season 6's pacing will be no different.  22 episodes for Regina to figure out the obvious about the The Evil Queen is 22 episodes too many.

I'm still hoping A&E's "twist" is that Regina dies a heroic death and the Evil Queen lives. But then EQ would probably redeem herself, rendering the split moot. 

Spoiler

I mean, come on - she has the capacity to love Henry. Of course the writers are going to see her as redeemable.

 

Quote

In general, I'd say that pacing is one of their biggest weaknesses. Either not enough happens, or too much happens.

I really hate it when the writers tease that something is going to happen soon, only for there to be more wheel spinning. In 5x03, Charming said, "We're going to reunite Excalibur... tonight." Then nothing happened. In 5x17 (?), Snow said something like, "I'm tired of being here. Let's take down Hades." Then the heroes did nothing and Snow left in the next episode. It doesn't just apply to the heroes, either - remember Ingrid and Rumple's conversation? Hype for nothing. The writers love the "OMG, stuff's about to get real!" moments, but they don't like following up on them.

Although... this just circles back to the "all setup, no payoff" problem that plagues the show at large.

Edited August 2, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Souris]

3 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

I liked Josh's comment during SDCC in one of the interviews. He said that he (and the others who were there during season 1 agreed with him) was surprised that the curse was broken so quickly because he assumed that breaking the curse was the endgame of the show where it would be the last thing that would happen. 

Jen said at SDCC that A&E told the actors in the beginning that it would take six seasons to break the curse. Lana added that she thinks they just didn't want the actors to know. Which says a lot about A&E, doesn't it?

[KingOfHearts]

2 minutes ago, Souris said:

Jen said at SDCC that A&E told the actors in the beginning that it would take six seasons to break the curse. Lana added that she thinks they just didn't want the actors to know. Which says a lot about A&E, doesn't it?

But Lana had to know Regina killed Marian. Great logic!

[Rumsy4]

9 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

But Lana had to know Regina killed Marian. Great logic!

Yeah--what was the point? Lana even said she put it into her acting as though Regina knew she had executed Marian, but in the first episode of 4A, we find Regina didn't even remember Marian. 

[YaddaYadda]

I get why in some instances they don't wanna tell the actors what's going on, like when they decided to make Hook the Dark One, they only told Colin he was immortal and he worked it out for himself. If he had known maybe his acting would have changed. But in some instances like when Marian was really Zelena, the actress should have known. I guess the A&E are so preoccupied by the "hey surprise!" that they do it that way.

I still think the Marian/Zelena thing was not something they decided on until they decided that Robin was leaving town with her and Roland and needed to figure out a way to bring him back without him looking even douchier than he was by leaving his sweet wife behind. 

[KingOfHearts]

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I get why in some instances they don't wanna tell the actors what's going on, like when they decided to make Hook the Dark One, they only told Colin he was immortal and he worked it out for himself. If he had known maybe his acting would have changed. But in some instances like when Marian was really Zelena, the actress should have known. I guess the A&E are so preoccupied by the "hey surprise!" that they do it that way.

I'm not sure why Colin would need to know he's immortal. That takes away his surprise when he gets stabbed in 5x08. I hope Jen knew exactly what was going on. She should have been aware Hook was a Dark One and that was she was responsible. That kind of information would be required to pull off Dark Swan.

Quote

I still think the Marian/Zelena thing was not something they decided on until they decided that Robin was leaving town with her and Roland and needed to figure out a way to bring him back without him looking even douchier than he was by leaving his sweet wife behind. 

Or, you know, they just wanted Zelena back and found out Mader was available. Probably a bit of that and what you said.

[YaddaYadda]

9 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

I'm not sure why Colin would need to know he's immortal. That takes away his surprise when he gets stabbed in 5x08. I hope Jen knew exactly what was going on. She should have been aware Hook was a Dark One and that was she was responsible. That kind of information would be required to pull off Dark Swan.

He didn't get stabbed in 5x08, he only got cut and was healed until they tried to put Excalibur back together. 

I think the writers were just giving him a hint regarding his story, and Jen was told that Hook was the reason she was doing the things she was doing or something to that effect. I remember after they did the con in NYC, in her interviews, she called Hook a weakness several times. I remember that we speculated that something had happened to him in Camelot that had sent her over the line and turned her into the Dark One.

[KingOfHearts]

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He didn't get stabbed in 5x08, he only got cut and was healed until they tried to put Excalibur back together. 

Zelena stabbed him in Emma's house to prove he was a Dark One. That's how Hook realized he was immortal.

[YaddaYadda]

33 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Zelena stabbed him in Emma's house to prove he was a Dark One. That's how Hook realized he was immortal.

My bad. Brain fart. 

[Amerilla]

I'm sure every show navigates the writer-actor relationship differently, but I find the idea of Once keeping upcoming Shocking!Plot!Twists! secret from the actors deeply disrespectful to them as professionals. They aren't being given the information they need to construct decent performances, to the point where once-very-decent-actors are often rendered unwatchable. (Exhibit A: Robert Carlyle is generally regarded as one of the most talented British actors of his generation, and he's been reduced to three monologues and two facial expression, none of them particularly entertaining after five seasons.) They're forced to interpret completely nonsensical plot shifts on the fly, and it shows. Worse, being the public faces of the show in the media and among the fandom, they end up having to (diplomatically) answer for the completely nonsensical plot twists.

OTOH - even when actor's do occasionally get a head's up, it ends up not mattering. Jen knew she was going to be the DO, prepped for it, researched it, and it really didn't matter. It was, overall, a poorly-written story that sucked most of the life out of her performance. All the advanced warning in the world can't make bad dialog great or fix a swiss-cheese plot.

[KingOfHearts]

Stealing a discussion from the Spoilers thread...

Why even have the show take place in the Land Without Magic if there's so little culture clash? I'm sure it's cheaper to use conventional settings, but we see so much fantasy anyway. It's almost like a writing crutch for a fanfic. "Oh, I don't want to mess with world building or research on medieval societies. I'll just have it take place in modern day!" 

The S5 finale was so lazy. There was no point in going to New York. Henry could have gone to any other realm to run away like a delinquent. Why have a library of magical items, the return of the Dragon, the wishing fountain, and Rumple bribing a room service waiter? I realize the destroy magic plot had some tie-in LWM, but that was just as pointless. It all just makes no sense to me.

Edited August 5, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

The Storybrooke setting is especially a mess since the "heroes" keep relying on non-magical techniques even though magic is rampant and used willy nilly whenever by villains, and also by Regina.  It's getting to the point where you wonder why Emma doesn't do everything with magic.  When Regina and Emma takes a long walk or run after someone, you wonder why they don't apparate.  There's clearly no exact cost of magic, unless you're a nonmagical person being tempted.  A lot of people raised the excellent point about why Arthur killing the servant wasn't captured on videotape.  He knew nothing of that technology, so it was the perfect opportunity to show the culture/tech difference.

I agree the S5 finale was lazy writing since everything was contrived to get to Henry convincing the people of New York to believe, through nonsensical retcons and nonsensical actions of the various characters.  It was a jumbled mess, and I wonder how all the writers could have been so oblivious to this.  Is the Writers Room filled with shiny toys taped to the wall and they can't sustain attention for more than 5 seconds?

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

I agree the S5 finale was lazy writing since everything was contrived to get to Henry convincing the people of New York to believe, through nonsensical retcons and nonsensical actions of the various characters

Then the people of New York didn't care a few seconds later. No one recorded anything on their phones that we know of. There weren't any tweets saying, "Oh my gosh! Magic is real!" I realize New Yorkers see some pretty crazy stuff, but... this crazy? It had to have some effect on them considering they applauded and cheered as if they were in awe. Did no one but Henry notice purple clouds and lightning around the hotel?

Edited August 5, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Maybe this is a Fictional Land Without Magic everyone is stupid.  Well, come to think about it, practically every character in every realm is stupid.

Edited August 5, 2016 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

32 minutes ago, Camera One said:

It's getting to the point where you wonder why Emma doesn't do everything with magic.

I can kind of see why Emma doesn't automatically use magic, since she's still getting used to the idea of having powers. She should be using it more and more now, though. Regina and Rumple, on the other hand, are used to being able to use magic for everything, so why don't they?

But aside from the worldbuilding issues, I think a lot of it comes down to the same problem as the lack of genuine emotional reactions, which is that these writers aren't very empathetic (hmm, wonder why Regina's their favorite). They don't seem able to put themselves in the skins of their characters and imagine how they see the world. So we get no emotional reaction to things that should be huge -- like Emma watching Regina execute her mother, Regina learning that she was Rumple's patsy for the curse, Neal seeing his father again after learning that his father murdered his mother, the townspeople seeing Hook back from the dead -- and we get no reaction from the characters to their surroundings. It doesn't seem like they've taken any time to think about what it would be like to be a fairy tale character from another world that's practically medieval, landing in modern America, or even what it would be like to have spent your entire life (or thought you had) in a small town in Maine and then coming to New York. There have been a few half-hearted nods to the fish-out-of-water thing, like Hook's talking phone with the Emma button or Belle's initial "they put ice in the tea here!" but most of the time they forget to think through the reactions. If I were writing for this show, that would be my favorite part. I'd spend hours pretending I was one of the characters and mentally running through what daily life would look like to that person so I could find a few fun tidbits to throw into scripts. There's something wrong when we can't tell which characters have cursed memories and which ones don't.

[KingOfHearts]

The writing quality tends to be better in self-contained stories that don't have many threads. Back to the Forest, Team Princess, The Nevengers, and Frozen were all good ideas played out coherently. The objectives were clear, the style straight forward, and the conclusions affirmative. With those arcs, the writers seemed like they had a better plan and knew what they were doing. There were less dropped plots and the execution was more satisfying because it all came together. The writers start failing when they're juggling more threads, introducing more characters, and playing with multiple places in the timeline. For these reasons, that's probably why the adventure-style storytelling in half-seasons has functioned better for the show. (Which makes S6 all the more concerning.) 

[Curio]

From the "Ruby Slippers" episode thread:

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You want your viewers to say, "I did not see that coming, but it totally makes sense." You want your audience to want to rewatch to pick up on missed clues. You don't want your audience to have to do mental gymnastics to reconcile what they saw because the writer mislaid the tracks.

They do this all the time to the point where it makes you wonder if they even care about their own canon anymore. The Season 5 deleted scenes that came out online a few days ago seem to point to that as well.

But what I don't understand is when A&E say they follow two completely contradictory styles of storytelling. They say they're adamant about telling the story they want to tell, and that the audience and Twitter feedback doesn't influence their writing. But in the same breath of air, they'll say, "We need to change up our formula because we don't want the audience getting too comfortable with our standard 11-episode structure." Wait, which is it? If they consciously make an effort to do a surprise twist to trick the audience in the most convoluted way possible or change their format to confuse the audience, then they're letting the audience influence the writing. If the writers didn't care about the audience putting together the clues along the way and only focussed on writing the story they want to tell, it would be a much better show.

Edited August 15, 2016 by Curio

[Camera One]

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If the writers didn't care about the audience putting together the clues along the way and only focussed on writing the story they want to tell, it would be a much better show.

I think the show would be a hot mess even without the audience influence.  Because as writers, their actual interest is in writing those surprise twists.   The surprise twist plot is actually the story they want to tell.  It's what entertains them and gives them satisfaction.   The "wouldn't it be cool if..." syndrome drives the excitement in the Writers' Room. Their intrinsic interest are in the villains, Regina in particular, so we would get even more of a focus on them (I mean, Charming would be dead by the pilot if they had their way, which would have had repercussions for all the flashbacks in Season 1).  But they also pride themselves in "complexity" for the villains; thus the sob stories and the yo-yo of evil and then redemption and then evil, etc.  So all in all, I think A&E are writing the story they want, with the exception of being forced to write some crappy scraps for the Charmings.

Edited August 15, 2016 by Camera One

[Curio]

True. Also, the entire first season of Dead of Summer was written before it hit the air, so A&E didn't even have to go through a pilot process for Freeform, so that show is basically what A&E would write without any audience or network influence. And it's much worse than OUAT.

I do sometimes wish A&E listened to the audience more for this show, but only if they listened to the correct people, not the nut-job portions of the fandom.

[TheGreenKnight]

4 hours ago, Curio said:

But what I don't understand is when A&E say they follow two completely contradictory styles of storytelling. They say they're adamant about telling the story they want to tell, and that the audience and Twitter feedback doesn't influence their writing. But in the same breath of air, they'll say, "We need to change up our formula because we don't want the audience getting too comfortable with our standard 11-episode structure." Wait, which is it? If they consciously make an effort to do a surprise twist to trick the audience in the most convoluted way possible or change their format to confuse the audience, then they're letting the audience influence the writing. If the writers didn't care about the audience putting together the clues along the way and only focussed on writing the story they want to tell, it would be a much better show.

I think this is just a nice way for them to avoid saying, "The executives made us do it."

[Rumsy4]

25 minutes ago, TheGreenKnight said:

I think this is just a nice way for them to avoid saying, "The executives made us do it."

Totally agree on that instance (changing from the two-episode arc). However, A&E are way too fond of the shocking twist for that statement to be inaccurate. 

[Mathius]

We already knew the new ABC president had talked of wanting the show to go back to 22-episode full season arcs well before the announcement about S6 came, so yeah, it's definitely not a decision made by A&E, that's just their way of trying to bullshit people as to what the reason was.

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The writing quality tends to be better in self-contained stories that don't have many threads. Back to the Forest, Team Princess, The Nevengers, and Frozen were all good ideas played out coherently. 

Agreed, especially with 3A and the S3 finale.  2A was cut shorter than I would have liked it to be (it should have been 11 episodes, really), while 4A got extended one hour longer than it should have and concluded terribly.  But they were all better and more coherent than 2B, the main arc of 3B, 4B, 5A and 5B turned out. All of those packed in WAY too much and suffered as a result. And unfortunately from the looks of it so far, S6 will suffer as well.

Edited August 15, 2016 by Mathius

[KingOfHearts]

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while 4A got extended one hour longer than it should have and concluded terribly.

I would say the Frozen story was coherent, but not everything else that was happening in Storybrooke. Anna, Ingrid and Elsa were mostly in their own little world and that's where the quality went. I find the rest of 4A horribly written.

[Camera One]

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I would say the Frozen story was coherent, but not everything else that was happening in Storybrooke. Anna, Ingrid and Elsa were mostly in their own little world and that's where the quality went. I find the rest of 4A horribly written.

I thought Emma was used well with the "Frozen" story and characters.  Her scenes with Elsa provided some of the best character moments since Season 1, as did the limited tie-ins that Elsa had with other characters like Hook.  I liked Elsa's conversation with Snow too, but now that I think about it, it was thrown away in the scrap pile.  Of course, the worst tie-in with Frozen was given to Charming.  

If Frozen was the A plot, then Regina and Rumple each had their own B plot.  Both were really badly done, with Regina's dragged out repetitive wish to find The Author along with the completely unbelievable fallout of Marian; and Rumple got to lie to Belle while caressing the hat box.  

For me, the A plot took up so much time in the present-day and dominated the flashbacks to such an extent that, I generally have a favorable impression of 4A.

Edited August 16, 2016 by Camera One

[TheGreenKnight]

I liked Rumpel's plot in 4A and it seemed like a logical progression for him with Neal dead since Belle has never been enough motivation for him to stop being evil. I think the only weak link was Regina's story with Robin-Marian. I was never really a Robin fan anyway which probably made the triangle even more exhausting, but I did like that the development ended up bringing up the storybook again finally (since it seemed to be ignored by the plot since season 1) and returned Zelena/Mader to the show. Actually, the triangle in 4A was just as awful as the one in S2-3 between Emma, Neal, and Hook although I liked Neal even less than Robin. I just hate love triangles in general. It's one of the worst kind of storylines that seem to always crop up on every TV show at some point or another these days.

Edited August 16, 2016 by TheGreenKnight

[Shanna Marie]

8 hours ago, Camera One said:

Because as writers, their actual interest is in writing those surprise twists.   The surprise twist plot is actually the story they want to tell.  It's what entertains them and gives them satisfaction.

That's where I think they write for Twitter -- not to please any particular faction of the fans, but they're writing to be tweeted about. They want those "OMG!" moments that generate tweets, where the reaction can fit into 140 characters. Instead of writing developed relationships, they write moments designed to generate 'shippy gifs. They aren't looking for more substantial responses to the story as a whole. As long as they're getting the big "OMG!" immediate reaction, they're good.

The Rumple plot in 4A had a lot of potential. They just blew it in the final stretch when Rumple started making the same speech over and over again to Hook, when Chekhov's Arsenal of clues about Hook's plight just sat there without meaning anything, and when the conclusion was rushed through, skipping from A to T. And then it ended up meaning nothing because Rumple was right back in town and Belle took him back.

[Camera One]

Rumple in 4A *should* have had a lot of potential.  The Writers set up a number of significant emotional issues that should have been dealt with.  One was Rumple being dead for awhile (where he apparently spent some time in Underbrooke), and then being ripped back into existence.  Another was being held captive by Zelena.  A third was "killing" Zelena behind Belle's back despite having a new start with Belle.  And there was perhaps the need to deal with his son's death, not to mention sharing his son's mind and body before Neal died?  Nope.  Instead, we got Rumple decked out in "Beauty and the Beast" attire before coveting the One Hat Box That Ruined Them All and trying to suck people into it, and having pointless conversations with Ingrid in the woods where she declares she understands Storybrooke is too small for him and he wants to rule the world.  Very little of the fallout from 3B figured into what the Writers wrote for 4A.  It showed a complete lack of planning of a character arc.

Edited August 16, 2016 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

A lot of storylines should have been interesting in 4A. Regina dealing with Zarian could have given her character growth. Emma's conflict with her parents was brought front and center. But Regina's story was overwhelmed by the stupid Operation Mongoose and Adultery Queen, and Emma's fell short because of the lack of resolution where it mattered. (Yes, she accepted her magical abilities, but the lack of trust from her parents withstood and her reunion with Hook cut short.) 4A is one of the more glaring instances in the show where there are plenty of setups with no real executions. It's not just with Rumple and the gauntlet, either.

Edited August 16, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

It's amazing how successive episodes can give you whiplash; it's like watching a toddler darting from one toy to another and talking and then switching topics mid-sentence.  I mean, they had that whole setup where Ingrid got Emma all riled at her parents and her magic went out of control and she ran into the woods ("The Snow Queen").  Next episode (which totally sucked), the writers have this 5-second resolution phone call with Snow where the two actresses aren't even allowed to share the same space (great use of talent!).  It's like one episode's writers did a setup, and the next writer's episode is onto a different shiny object.  And how many times can you use the same trope twice.  How many times do they have Emma going to Rumple for help?  What's the count now?

[Curio]

Dead of Summer Dialogue: "It's time to decide what kind of man you want to be."

Once Upon a Time Dialogue: "What kind of man do you want to be?"

Dead of Summer Dialogue: "We make a good team, Townie."

Once Upon a Time Dialogue: "I don’t mean to upset you, Emma, but I think we make quite the team."

[Camera One]

30 minutes ago, sharky said:

It's weird though. Like, did ABC ask them for a teen drama, which is why it ended up on Freeform? Or did they ask for a drama and then after seeing it, decided to put it on Freeform instead of the ABC schedule? 

I think this is likely the closest to what happened.  ABC Family/Freeform caters to the teen/pre-teen/family demographic, and the show doesn't have enough star-power for a main network pilot ("Once" had Ginny Goodwin and Robert Carlyle and lucrative tie-ins with Disney).  Maybe A&E pitched the show, and ABC Family/Freeform, which according to the article below seemed to be looking to grow their original programming crop, decided that "Dead of Summer" would be a good pick for their new growing network.

http://thefutoncritic.com/news/2015/11/18/following-the-announcement-that-abc-family-is-becoming-freeform-network-gives-a-straight-to-series-order-based-on-a-multiple-script-commitment-to-dead-of-summer-522015/20151118abcfamily02/