The Sleepy Hollow Therapy Thread - What went wrong with Sleepy Hollow?

[ChelseaNH]

wouldn't "friendship" between a man and a woman (especially one who is betrothed) be highly improper and essentially adultery?

 

If they met only in public, with others about, there would be nothing unseemly about it.  Mary did find Ichabod alone with Katrina, but they were outdoors in public view.  Also, moral standards were different for people of different stations, not to mention colonial life wasn't as rigid as London society.  Look up the practice of bundling, for example.

[BigEasygirl]

I think I'm more excited about Empire than my wife.  The creator wanted to do one of my favorite movies (The Lion in Winter) as a battle for a rap studio -- how cool is that?!

 

Okay, now I'm actually interested in this show whereas before I wasn't at all.  The Lion in Winter is one of my favs too.  Yeah, this show has the potential to be very cool if they can stick with their premise and not botch it like Sleepy Hollow.

[TwistedandBored]

 

Ye who like The Flash and Arrow, have you seen Gotham?  Jada Smith is having a ton of fun as one of the second-level (but still pretty powerful) crime bosses, and the rest of the cast is pretty good.  Oswald Cobblepot (aka "The Penguin") is perfect and having Carol Kane as his mother (with definite Boundary issues!) is a hoot.

 

Jada is literally my favorite thing about Gotham. She is soo good as Fish. Oswald while I like him is good in small doses. The more I see him the more he looses his charm for me.

 

 

 

I was always bothered by how Crane and Katrina got together but back in season 1 I really didn't care about them that much. I had other things to focus on that interested me more. Now that everything else about the show's mystery is gone…fans are dissecting their relationship and a lot new things are coming to light that we ignored or didn't care about back then. Can't blame people really. 

Edited December 10, 2014 by TwistedandBored

[starchild215]

Jada is wonderful in Gotham. She plays Fish with the right mixture of camp and evil. I agree that S1 of SH had the better cast but "Gotham", "The Flash" and from what I'm read "Arrow" have done the better job of keeping scifi/fantasy fans interested because the situations within the world the writers have created make total sense.

 

And let's not forget Cobblepot!

[formerlyfreedom]

Let's keep it to discussing Sleepy Hollow, and what (if anything) you feel went wrong with it this fall - if you have recommendations of other shows, those can be made in the Small Talk topic.

[jhlipton]

I agree with you - Ichabod didn't really "court" her (I think jhlipton was being sarcastic and exaggerating though) - but he did insert himself into a situation he shouldn't have inserted himself into.

 

Yeah, "court" is the wrong word.  I tried to think of a better one, but couldn't.  

 

When Abraham invited Ichy to the party, he should have begged off.  I seem to recall that Katrina was somewhat inappropriate when she was introduced to Ichy in that scene -- that should have been a clue to get far, far away from this woman.

[HalcyonDays]

Yeah, "court" is the wrong word.  I tried to think of a better one, but couldn't.  

 

When Abraham invited Ichy to the party, he should have begged off.  I seem to recall that Katrina was somewhat inappropriate when she was introduced to Ichy in that scene -- that should have been a clue to get far, far away from this woman.

 

I long have dismissed the whole 18th inappropriateness that Ichabod and Katrina have. SH isn't going to be an accurate historical reenactment at all. Half of the stuff would never happen.

 

Case in point. Ichabod would never appear in public, or in Abbie's presence without his great coat on. A proper 18th century nobleman never would. Same with the fact that his shirts are always gaping open. Would never happen. Katrina with her hair loose, an upper class woman in a pub like that would be frowned upon. But hey, it's a TV show and it's fun, so whatever!! I'm not picky.

 

You know, just realized one interesting thing about that bar introduce scene - Abraham trusted Ichabod and Katrina so much that he has no qualms introducing them. He trusts that his friend will not betray him, and that his fiance is loyal. Then look what happened. Both betrayed him. Now I feel even more sorry for Abraham. Redeem him!!

[cynic]

Someone on Tumbler counted how much screen time each of the secondary characters (Jenny, Katrina, Irving, and Hawley) got during season 2 and our it in a chart. I don't know how accurate it is, but it's interesting. At the very least, I have a handy reference for which episodes I can skip upon rewatch due to heavy Katrina-ness. Just kidding! Like I would rewatch this season. At least I have season 1 on DVD.

http://t-zora.tumblr.com/post/104190653172/sh-stats

[thuganomics85]

 

Someone on Tumbler counted how much screen time each of the secondary characters (Jenny, Katrina, Irving, and Hawley) got during season 2 and our it in a chart. I don't know how accurate it is, but it's interesting.

Holy shit.  I knew it was bad, but only 12.9 % for Frank?  Orlando Jones really did get fucked over.  I guess that's what he gets for being so supportive of the show last season.  Ugh.

[phoenics]

Someone on Tumbler counted how much screen time each of the secondary characters (Jenny, Katrina, Irving, and Hawley) got during season 2 and our it in a chart. I don't know how accurate it is, but it's interesting. At the very least, I have a handy reference for which episodes I can skip upon rewatch due to heavy Katrina-ness. Just kidding! Like I would rewatch this season. At least I have season 1 on DVD.

http://t-zora.tumblr.com/post/104190653172/sh-stats

Those numbers don't surprise me at all.

I think the more interesting ones would be comparing talking screen time of Struggle, Abbie and Crane. In actual minutes per episode.

[DeLurker]

 

Someone on Tumbler counted how much screen time each of the secondary characters (Jenny, Katrina, Irving, and Hawley) got during season 2 and our it in a chart.

I wonder if a chart of viewer ratings would show an inverse graph of Katrina time?

[jhlipton]

Someone on Tumbler counted how much screen time each of the secondary characters (Jenny, Katrina, Irving, and Hawley) got during season 2 and our it in a chart. I don't know how accurate it is, but it's interesting. At the very least, I have a handy reference for which episodes I can skip upon rewatch due to heavy Katrina-ness. Just kidding! Like I would rewatch this season. At least I have season 1 on DVD.

http://t-zora.tumblr.com/post/104190653172/sh-stats

 

I love that they adopted "Struggle Witch" and "Scrunchface Hawley"!

[formerlyfreedom]

A question came up about why this topic would show new content when no new content was posted -- well, it is because everytime someone votes in the poll topic up there at the top? It registers in the system as new content!

 

So no, you are not going crazy...we hope?

 

Thanks for posting!

[Criminey]

(I wan't sure if this should go in the Katrina thread; but I think it really is more about what went wrong.  I can move it if necessary, thx.)

 

It seems to me that the people who run this show are in a difficult position.  They've put many of their eggs into the Katrina basket.  The actress is in a difficult position in that she has to deliver in all of the episodes that are Katrina centric.  That's the only way the show may capture new fans, possibly retain current viewers and re-engage viewers who have moved on to other entertainment.
I can only judge the actress from what I've seen so far.  I can't think of one character on SH that she has any kind of charisma or emotional connection with.  I haven't seen any range in her ability to even make this happen.  To me her best episode was the one in which she murdered poor Mary (Ok I think she killed Mary though I guess there's still room for doubt!).
I've only seen the actress in one other show and I realized it was her only when I saw the entry in IMDB.  I was a die-heart fan of Dexter.  I watched every season and every episode; sometimes twice.  Evidently Katia played the Russian stripper in Season 7.  I remember the character; but I don't have any impression of the actress.  I'm not saying she was bad in the role; but for me she did not leave an impression.
I wouldn't want to be in Katia's position.  If she can carry it off, I say well done.  But, for this show I'm not interested in a Time-Travelling Witch.  And her reactions to the modern world can't possibly be better than Ichabods.  But hey they can always prove me wrong!
I watch Outlander for Time Travel and Salem for Witchiness.  Without the Ichabod/Abbie charisma, this is a totally different show that I'm not interested in.

[CinnamonCW]

This thread is giving me life!

I agree that most of what went wrong can be traced back to Goffman's desire to force the audience to like Katrina and make her important to the story. In the process Abbie has been marginalized, Jennie and Irving sidelined, and Ichabod's been reduced to a chump that disrespects Abbie.

The new writers along with Goffman seem intent on white-washing the show. This is common in TV; others have pointed to 'Twisted' as the most recent example. Under no other circumstances would a leading lady be shoved aside for a lack-luster character like Katrina. Subconsciously or not they think it's a given that Katrina is the woman we should care about. They even parade her around in a shoddy corset and skinny jeans that do nothing to flatter Katia's athletic figure because as a white woman she's the hawt one. It's little things like having the extras in 'Deliverance' gawk at her in the hospital, as if that petite, curvy natural beauty with the most flawless skin and gorgeous face isn't there.

I agree with people re: Katia's smugness. It had rubbed me the wrong way when she said that about hoping Abbie and Ichabod never get together and then when she said Katrina wasn't jealous with that look in the church. Like, she can't possibly be jealous if it's Abbie that her husband has grown so close to. Katia felt comfortable enough to let it be known she was bored with what being a side-character that is fourth billed entails. I wonder if she went directly to the show-runners?

It does make a terrible sense now. I don't feel sorry for her either.

They can't understand that we actually care about Jennie and Frank and that this show isn't a playground for entitled white guys. So we have Frank sidelined all season just to be killed, meanwhile an unrepentant murderous white guy we care little about gets to be the focus and the chance to be redeemed. Jennie is all but replaced by Fantasy Self-Insert Hawley.
 

[jhlipton]

This show isn't a playground for entitled white guys. 

 

+1000

[DeLurker]

Hollywood kinda is.

Edited December 20, 2014 by DeLurker

[fantique]

WARNING!!!! I'm about to go on a bitchy rant. Gird your loins.

 

It would seem you're right on the nose.

There's a blogger/fan that's often invited to preview episodes for various shows, and had also been contacted to do promos for 'Sleepy Hollow.' Anyway this person relayed on another forum that an inside source with whom s/he shares emails with directly cited #AbbieMillsDeservesBetter as what prompted the last-minute Abbie arc. Furthermore the source said they've even reshot some scenes that had long been completed in response to the backlash. I think the word "scrambling" was used.

This same blogger/fan had relayed in the same post that the source said TPTB had kicked around nixing the whole Seven Year Apocalypse/Revelations thing because the writers think it stifles them creatively. Well not too long after that Goffman comes out in interviews saying Molloch is gone and they want the show to explore other mythologies. So IMO there's ios good reason to believe what the source says is true as far as the source knows.

Of course this doesn't guarantee Goffman suddenly gets it.
 

Ok... I read this, decided to take a deep breath, thought I could come back to comment on this when I calmed down.

 

I.AM.STILL.NOT.CALM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Never before have I doubted the competence and intelligence of a showrunner the way I do Goffman's. I am sorry but this too much. So he thought that 1 out of 18 episodes was doing justice to Abbie's story!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? The co-lead? Even if the witch hunt episode is the only Katrina-centric episode of the back half, she would have had more episodes than Abbie dedicated to her.

 

Is he fucking serious? I have played the devil's advocate fully on his side until Deliverance and hanging on to scraps of moments that focused on Abbie's emotional state, telling everyone that it was proof he does have regard for the character. Even until now, I was defending his original plan of keeping Abbie in purgatory because I felt he understood the character, respected her and recognised what she brings to the show. Now I have to believe the people who said he would have basically shown her for 2 minutes per episode while trying to sell that sinking ship that is the Cranes with the Abraham factor to "juice" it up. 

 

This is the final evidence that this moron actually has absolutely no idea what people enjoy about this show. He can stick that crap about "casual viewers" and "core audience" where the sun doesn't shine. It's that core audience that stays even when they're displeased (out of loyalty), the "casual viewers" will switch off the TV when it gets boring and make zero effort to catch up and end up never returning. I really don't know who that guy thinks watches the show, and why, but he needs to go. I have never felt this vindictive about any creative leadership since the disaster otherwise known as the Harry Potter 4 movie. I categorically refuse to watch any project of that director's and I want Goffman gone from this show or at least demoted. I will avoid anything under his leadership like the plague from now on. 

 

He doesn't know how to write sci-fi/fantasy, I could appreciate his input for the 'real world' stuff last season but he obviously has no handle on the most basic storytelling tools this genre needs. His idea of bringing internationality is switching off religion and going for folklore even though Christianity and folklore are often intermixed and adapt depending on the region of the world they are in. Basic research would have informed him of that. He is doing what I think I will despise: completely abandoning the original premise and therefore turning this into a boring show that I could watch being written better in Salem and/or Turn.

 

No, the writing has never been perfect, last season's writing wasn't Emmy-worthy BUT it had accomplished what no other show has done in a recent while and that's providing a wildly exhilarating ride where you could just let the show take you wherever because you cared and loved the characters from the get-go. What I did believe to be Award winning was the performance of everyone involved in the pages-to-screen realisation. The acting, the directing, the SFX, the costumes, editing, etc. All these technical tools that help give you the fullest experience of the story were there and I still felt they were there this season until the last episode where the entire show felt tired, dragging and abrupt all at once.

 

I have seen worse on TV, obviously otherwise I wouldn't even write here, but I have never seen a worse waste of talent and resources. Goffman is letting all these amazing people down because the story being told makes no sense, lacks direction and purpose, focuses too much on one element (that for the most part is not even liked) instead of moving forward with the two lead it has been blessed with. I hate him in a way that makes me feel embarrassed because I don't know the guy, he might be a nice dude but he is ruining something I have cared deeply about more than I ever expected to. I want his influence on the show reduced or completely erased and I want the original writing team back since this one (even though I like most of them, especially Kindler) seems to have little knowledge of the established characters and sadly have taken horrible habits and are not sure what this world is about. I will hold on for this season, I already bought the iTunes pass anyway, but unless I hear of structural changes, I probably will not be back for season 3. I feel chagrined that I am leaving behind these amazing actors and not contributing to a substantial way to recognise and appreciate the great efforts put on by this amazing cast and crew but alas I can not see myself holding on anymore.

 

He has proved that he is not interested in telling a story I would be compelled to follow and while that's his right, I as well have the right not to watch and endorse his (in my opinion) unimaginative and completely boring vision.

Edited December 20, 2014 by fantique

[HalcyonDays]

^^^ This is beautifully written, fantique. Really. Every word is spot on.

 

I have seen worse on TV, obviously otherwise I wouldn't even write here, but I have never seen a worse waste of talent and resources.

 

The bold...I have to comment on the bold. I mean for me, there were seasons of Walking Dead, Lost, Castle, and other shows in the past that I have watched that have had bad seasons, but you slogged through them and it somewhat kept your interest and sometimes it improved, sometimes it didn't. For me, I just stopped watching Castle one Monday, cause I just didn't care anymore. I didn't miss it, I didn't mourn it, didn't really care. It just lost me one day and that was it.

 

But I mourn for this show. Because I was really invested in this show unlike any other in my life, and they had such amazing talent they were extremely fortunate to cast, and a wonderful premise and they completely blew it.

 

I'm mourning the lost opportunity of this show and the complete waste of four extremely talented actors. (OJ, TM, NB and LG).

[DeLurker]

fantique - well worded indeed. 

 

I'll add that I am exceptional grateful for this forum - folks who took the time to share their thoughts on the eps, good and bad.  Y'all have brought so many things to my attention that I missed in my own viewings and your interpretations of scenes, while different than mine originally, often opened up new possibilities to me. 

 

It's really hard for me to commit to walking away from SH.  There were so many things that I loved in Season 1 and it was a show that did not neatly fit into any one box.  The core cast was/is amazing.

 

Right now I feel like I finally got my dream car (for the record: Sunbeam Tiger any year (limited production of 1964-67)) and after cruising around in it beautifully for 13 eps, I am more delighted than I ever thought I could be.  I stop for gas, fill up my tank and start on the road again.  But it was bad gas and now my dream car is running  rough and smelling bad.  Do I dump the car or try to ride out the bad gas in hopes that better fuel will restore my wonder ride?

 

So..apparently Guffman = Bad Gas.

Edited December 20, 2014 by DeLurker

[savinggrace]

I wonder if Nicole and Tom are hoping the show gets cancelled at this point. Being stuck on a show with bad writing with little opportunity to fully showcase your skills as an actor can hurt their prospects for other work.

[Indi]

Maybe Nicole, but I don't know why Tom would. Unlike Nicole, he's still playing the main character and there is no danger his role will be diminished. Nicole on the other hand... I wouldn't blame her if she was looking for a role elsewhere. She has been demoted and saddled with the little helper role. Other than killing Abbie, I don't know what else they can do to insult her further.

[savinggrace]

Maybe Nicole, but I don't know why Tom would. Unlike Nicole, he's still playing the main character and there is no danger his role will be diminished. Nicole on the other hand... I wouldn't blame her if she was looking for a role elsewhere. She has been demoted and saddled with the little helper role. Other than killing Abbie, I don't know what else they can do to insult her further.

 

Once a TV show crosses the line into being really bad I think it hurts the prospects of all involved especially if the show goes on for season after season and the actors are tied down with long-term contracts.

[DeLurker]

 

Maybe Nicole, but I don't know why Tom would.

I think Tom is coming off worse this season too.  Well Ich is coming off as considerably less charming and verging at times into entitled and arrogant.  And stupid and spineless, at least when it comes to Katrina and Henry.  It would be one thing if there were any chemistry between TM and KW then I could claim Ich was simply thinking with Little Ich and blood could only flow to one head at a time.  But I find the two of them devoid of charm and chemistry.  They don't even come across as affectionate in a sibling way.  I find the complete lack of internal conflict that I would expect to go with someone who has a code or puts merit into honor offputting.  If they showed him struggling at all with his actions/choices and the bigger picture (save Henry or save the World?  Calling Katrina on her shit and two scenes later calling her "my love"?  The CFD or the role as a freaking Witness? Henry Redeption versus Abraham Redemption?) I would have a higher tolerance level.  And, as an actor, I think TM could pull it off 100% convincingly.

 

TM is generally not my cuppa, but S1 I found him extremely engaging.  Yolanda immediately comes to mind but I believe there was also a scene where he was adorkably mesmerized by scotch tape or a stapler.  Even sometimes haughty huffy Ich was amusing in S1.  But S2 has eroded any good will so now it is abrasive.

 

So while I know mentally TM is not to blame for the dismal and misguided storyarcs, including what dumbass crap comes out of Ich's mouth, he's the baby being thrown out with the bathwater in my feelings (wo-o-o feelings).

[savinggrace]

 

So while I know mentally TM is not to blame for the dismal and misguided storyarcs, including what dumbass crap comes out of Ich's mouth, he's the baby being thrown out with the bathwater in my feelings (wo-o-o feelings).

Does knowing this song mean I'm old?

And yes, Ichabod is coming across more like a caricature than a nuanced person this season. He went from charming to just plain rude.

[vanarnd1]

No, the writing has never been perfect, last season's writing wasn't Emmy-worthy BUT it had accomplished what no other show has done in a recent while and that's providing a wildly exhilarating ride where you could just let the show take you wherever because you cared and loved the characters from the get-go.

Great post Fantique. The part above especially should be noted. Fans are not asking for or expecting the show to be perfectly written but it has to be entertaining and get the audience invested in the characters and plot. Season 1 did this and the formula seemed so obvious there was not reason why it should have changed this season. It was universally stated amongst critics and fans that the draw of the show was Ichabbie and the chemistry between Nicole and Tom was clear. To mess with that by having Katrina and Henry become such a big part of the show makes no sense from a creative standpoint and just from a common sense standpoint. I could go on about Goffman but I think you covered it perfectly.

 

The real shame is that FOX couldn't see this coming sooner when they saw the script for "Deliverance". They seemed involved enough in the show to overrule Goffman in regards to keeping Abbie in purgatory in the premiere. That indcates to me the network understood the importance of keeping Ichabod and Abbie together but couldn't foresee that the strong focus on Katrina would cause such major issues with the show. All the goodwill that Sleepy Hollow built up in Season 1 is mostly gone, and it will be incredibly hard to gain back with what is already planned for the rest of the season.

Edited December 21, 2014 by vanarnd1

[Morrigan2575]

I stopped watching this show after Deliverance and only came back for the Abbie/Jenny episode. I have not watched the MSF amd will not be back in January.

At this point the only emotion I have lefr is a sense of morbid curiosity. Just how bad will it get?

It's a pity because I really enjoyed S1, it was fun and quirky. I also liked how the show sort of twisted the gender stereotypes.

[Indi]

It is a a very clear excuse, because they hadn't even begun with the Apocalypse. They had only worked two Horsemen into the story and even if they had revealed the last two this season, they could have explored the consequences in S3. Goffman maimed and destroyed the original concept, to expand his "creative horizons", when he hasn't managed to do anything compelling with the one he had. How can I expect this sorry excuse of a showrunner to deal with apocalyptic stories from other cultures with any respect, when he doesn't do the same with the POC in the show?

 

In S1 they told us Moloch couldn't come into the real world and start the Apocalypse, until he raised the Four Horsemen, but Goffman contrived an awful retcon, where this storyline came to an end with a whimper. He could have brought in a competing Apocalypse, that ended Moloch's plans, but no, Goffman had to aim for the lowest quality bar and it all came down to the CFD fixing their issues.

 

See how he got rid of the only direct link Abbie had to anything about the Apocalypse. The Cranes are tied to War and Death. Abbie was only tied to Moloch and they never explored, what happened in the woods. Now she's just a soldier, more and more isolated from the main plot, while Ichy has a direct emotional connection to everything

 

The fact that this guy turned Moloch black, so that a white guy could kill him and become the hero, informs me to what extent he's willing to be respectful of the other cultures he's ready to pillage for inspiration. Even without the StruggleWitch debacle due to his fetish for am awful actress, all of this tells me Goffman isn't fit to write, even less produce, a show. 

[Yolapukka]

At this point in the season, I feel like Goffman came in thinking he needed to put his stamp on things and treated the show like something was badly broken and he had the fix for it, not understanding that it is possible to put your own stamp on something that is already good, simply by expanding and adding to it's strengths. Instead he's cut away most of what worked well the first season and substituted it with a bunch of bland , boring relationship troubles. It's like what might have happened if Buffy TVS had lost Joss Whedon in season two and the new showrunner had decided to downplay the emphasis on vampire slaying, re-positioned Cordelia into a lead role, made her Giles' long-lost daughter and had him marry Joyce after a quicky romance and the show became about the new blended family with a side of wacky supernatural hijinx.

Edited December 21, 2014 by yuggapukka

[catrox14]

Maybe Nicole, but I don't know why Tom would. Unlike Nicole, he's still playing the main character and there is no danger his role will be diminished. Nicole on the other hand... I wouldn't blame her if she was looking for a role elsewhere. She has been demoted and saddled with the little helper role. Other than killing Abbie, I don't know what else they can do to insult her further.

Ichabod has been severely dumbed down to support Katrina. Mison is great but Ichabod will be useless like Abbie soon. I would also argue that Mison is probably none to happy about Abbies role considering how much he has raved about Nicole as his costar and that he would want to work with her

forever.

[Indi]

And yet his role hasn't suffered in focus or importance, unlike Nicole's. Ichy is a very problematic and unlikable (to me) character, but, as stupid and spineless as Ichy is, there is no doubt who the male lead is. His position is not and never will be in question. His permanence in the show is not in question, unlike Nicole's. I'm sure he's not completely happy about the show right now, but his job is not threatened to the same level. Of course, if the ratings continue to nose dive, everyone will lose their job, but it's not the same thing as being the target of a petty untalented racist.

[savinggrace]

I can't get over the writers feeling "stifled" by the book of Revelation which puts most supernatural dramas to shame with the amount of weirdness that goes on.

 

I suspect what they really meant is that the concept of two witnesses forced them to write about Abbie when they really just wanted to focus on the Cranes.

[Moonsky]

Never before have I doubted the competence and intelligence of a showrunner the way I do Goffman's. I am sorry but this too much. So he thought that 1 out of 18 episodes was doing justice to Abbie's story!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? The co-lead? Even if the witch hunt episode is the only Katrina-centric episode of the back half, she would have had more episodes than Abbie dedicated to her.

 

Is he fucking serious? I have played the devil's advocate fully on his side until Deliverance and hanging on to scraps of moments that focused on Abbie's emotional state, telling everyone that it was proof he does have regard for the character. Even until now, I was defending his original plan of keeping Abbie in purgatory because I felt he understood the character, respected her and recognised what she brings to the show. Now I have to believe the people who said he would have basically shown her for 2 minutes per episode while trying to sell that sinking ship that is the Cranes with the Abraham factor to "juice" it up. 

 

@fantique, your post really expresses some of the issues that many fans/media have regarding Sleepy Hollow's season two so far. The writing held less of my attention as each episode of season two went by & I mainly kept watching because of some of the actor’s performances but since that’s no longer enough to keep me invested, I’m done watching unless I hear about consistent improvements to the show which if it does happen won’t take place until next season. Even though there is a lot of crap on television, I still refuse to hate watch any show in this day & age because there are still a lot of good shows out there on network tv/cable/online to choose from. I liked some of the original concept for this show, thought the writing was better last season, & that the actor’s also had more to work with back then, but I already know that if I continue to live watch the rest of this season even if it’s only for some of the actor’s performances instead of deciding to maybe view it after the rest of season two airs when I’m able to get some real feedback on how the rest of the season played out, then I would most likely be heading towards hate watch territory which I have no interest in engaging in whatsoever.

 

If any real changes are made to Sleepy Hollow it will most likely be because FOX executives that are over Goffman’s head are forcing him to do it & not because he suddenly gets it.  Goffman has always known what made Sleepy Hollow a success which is why he actively works against it because that’s not how he wanted it to become successful. I never gave him the benefit of the doubt because since season one he’s directly & indirectly stated in various interviews that when it came to this show what was really important to him was Katrina, Ichabod, Henry/Jeremy, Abraham & basically anything that could be directly linked to Crane Family Drama, so why would I waste time lying to myself about where his priorities for the show really were.

 

At least in season one though for many fans who either didn’t care about CFD or cared very little about it, there was still a way to escape from it for a bit because of the Mills sisters & Irving family storylines which the other showrunners that played a more active role in season one had more use for at that time than Goffman did. As if some people couldn’t already tell from last season that he loved Katrina above all other characters from the way he spoke about her in interviews but a few weeks ago I read a comment from a viewer that said she read an interview from him where he flat out admitted that Katrina is his favorite character so she couldn’t understand why he wrote her so poorly. His lack of any real use for Abbie who is supposed to be the “leading lady” on the show has always been obvious to some fans though because even before all of this season’s backlash Goffman has gone out of his way to not mention her or not discuss much about her storylines in interviews even when an interviewer directly asked him about her. I always got the feeling though that Goffman mostly tolerated Abbie as a leading lady because in the beginning he was one of many people that had a voice in putting this show together & because he has no real background in the sci-fi/fantasy genre like Orci & Kurtzman do but now that he’s had more say in what happened during season two, the show is reflecting what he always saw as his true vision for the show.

 

Also when he’s not ignoring Abbie, he can be downright disrespectful as hell. Before season two started I will never forget the uproar some of his comments concerning leaving Abbie in purgatory caused. After season one ended Goffman talked about how he wanted to leave Abbie there for an extended period of time. Some fans didn’t really have an issue with her being there for like 2-3 episodes max but I think I remember Goffman making comments about leaving her there for the first 10 episodes of season two. Those fans didn’t believe he was “joking” because he kept making snide comments about how Katrina had spent 200 years there, so he hoped Abbie had packed some clean underwear for her long stay in purgatory. There are probably some clips of him talking about it on YouTube.

 

I think it was at PaleyFest in March where fans at that event got to see an advanced screening of the first thirty minutes of the first episode of season two & from what I remember them describing it was different from season two’s episode one that was aired in the fall for the television audience. I may be mixing it up with another event though because there have been a few media/fan events since the first season ended that involved a screening of a season two episode. It was a while ago but I think it was mentioned by some who attended that screening that Ichabod/Andy, Ichabod/Luke, or Ichabod/Andy/Luke all teamed up at various points in that episode to try & free Abbie from purgatory. I do remember promotional photos being released that showed Ichabod & Abbie in the pink dollhouse from the season one finale as well as a cop car coming towards what looked like a modern day war reenactment scene which if I’m remembering correctly Ichabod was in the middle of. I think people mentioned that it was supposed to be Andy in that cop car. I read that when FOX heard about Goffman’s original plans to leave Abbie in purgatory for an extended period of time, that idea was nixed because separating your two leads for more than half of an 18 episode order when that is what made your show successful in the first place didn’t make much sense to them & so those first couple of episodes were reshot. When the media asked Goffman & I think Len Wiseman why they decided to make changes to the first couple of episodes, I think they gave some excuse but I can’t remember what it was. They did say that some of those scenes would be seen at a later date & I think I remember reading a few weeks ago from a fan who attended the screening that the scene in the beginning of “Mama”, when Abbie is dreaming about seeing her mom in purgatory was one of those scenes that they saw during the screening of the original season two first episode. Goffman & the other showrunners during the summer hiatus did mention that Abbie would encounter people in purgatory that would help her & some of those characters fans wouldn’t expect. Fans guessed that Abbie might see people like her mother, father, Jenny, Andy, Corbin, & Grace but when the first episode of season two aired & the only person she came across was Andy before she escaped with Ichabod people knew that the original plans for season two definitely changed for the show.

 

There were people who watch Sleepy Hollow that mentioned being burned by FOX in the past when it came to sci-fi/fantasy shows like Firefly but some of them said that they had to give FOX credit when they heard that it was the network that nixed Goffman’s original plan of keeping Abbie in purgatory for the first 10 episodes because after watching how the writing for Abbie took a dip this season even without her being stashed away there & after watching the mid season finale, which was the eleventh episode of the season, they suspected that Goffman originally planned to free Abbie from purgatory as a way to help promote the mid season finale & the big reveal for those who were still watching was supposed to be Moloch being released on Earth & Henry being the one to kill him. Those fans felt that once the originally plans for Abbie were nixed, the showrunners had to settle for promoting a beloved character’s death, which ended up being Irving, along with the Henry/Moloch reveal but none of that helped the ratings because people had already begun to walk away from this show long before the mid season finale took place. With the way this show sidelined Jenny & Frank plus Goffman’s feelings about Abbie & anything not Crane family drama related, some fans saw his original plans for Abbie in purgatory as not really a way to give her a real storyline arc but as a way to sideline & stash her away there while he built up Katrina & the Crane Family Drama & if it proved to be a success, then he would feel more justified if he chose to one day kill her off in the human form like he did with Irving even if she somehow remained on the show in another form. The Huffington Post writer that wrote some negative reviews regarding how season two was playing out & also discussed her disappointment with it on her podcast basically confirmed that the big twist/reveal that Goffman let her in on during the summer was the Moloch/Henry reveal but before the mid season finale aired she said she wasn’t sure the writers would be able to pull it off because she didn’t really think they were building up to the mid season finale in a compelling way. I don’t know if she knew that a beloved character would die but I think she did question why the show didn’t kill off a less interesting character like Katrina instead of Irving. 

 

A couple of weeks ago I read a comment from someone on Tumblr who listened to an episode of The Nerdist Sleepy Hollow podcast & she said that one of the producers/writers mentioned that it was FOX that requested the “Mama” episode, so if that is true then even though Goffman mentioned during the summer that they would be exploring more of Abbie & the Mills family’s history this season, that really only happened because his bosses at FOX were literally making him do it, so that led to some fans once again giving FOX credit. Honestly though if FOX needs to tell a showrunner something as simple as him needing to write an episode that explores the backstory of one of the two leads & they don’t replace Goffman with a more competent showrunner after the season is done or aren’t able to convince Orci & Kurtzman to take a more active role with the show in season three like in season one, then hopefully for those fans who have issues with the show but still want to see some changes made while they continue to watch get some news after this season that FOX is at least going to hire some additional people in positions of power who actually have a background in the sci-fi/fantasy genre & care about exploring the backstories of all the regular characters and not just those who have Crane as a last name. 

Edited December 21, 2014 by Moonsky

[catrox14]

Yest. 11:57 pm

An

d yet his role hasn't suffered in focus or importance, unlike Nicole's. Ichy is a very problematic and unlikable (to me) character, but, as stupid and spineless as Ichy is, there is no doubt who the male lead is. His position is not and never will be in question. His permanence in the show is not in question, unlike Nicole's. I'm sure he's not completely happy about the show right now, but his job is not threatened to the same level. Of course, if the ratings continue to nose dive, everyone will lose their job, but it's not the same thing as being the target of a petty untalented racist.

 

 

I completely disagree that Ichabod's role hasn't suffered. I wrote a post upthread about how poorly they've treated Ichabod to service Katrina's character. Both Ichabod and Abbie especially as the wonderful team we had last season have suffered to prop Katrina. Abbie has been sidelined but when she is onscreen her characterization is largely the same smart, clever, kickass character she's always been. 

 

I stand by that Ichabod's characterization has actually been changed for the worse to elevate Katrina. I'll just agree to disagree that Ichabod has always been a bad character because I don't think he has been.

[phoenics]

@fantique, your post really expresses some of the issues that many fans/media have regarding Sleepy Hollow's season two so far. The writing held less of my attention as each episode of season two went by & I mainly kept watching because of some of the actor’s performances but since that’s no longer enough to keep me invested, I’m done watching unless I hear about consistent improvements to the show which if it does happen won’t take place until next season. Even though there is a lot of crap on television, I still refuse to hate watch any show in this day & age because there are still a lot of good shows out there on network tv/cable/online to choose from. I liked some of the original concept for this show, thought the writing was better last season, & that the actor’s also had more to work with back then, but I already know that if I continue to live watch the rest of this season even if it’s only for some of the actor’s performances instead of deciding to maybe view it after the rest of season two airs when I’m able to get some real feedback on how the rest of the season played out, then I would most likely be heading towards hate watch territory which I have no interest in engaging in whatsoever.

 

If any real changes are made to Sleepy Hollow it will most likely be because FOX executives that are over Goffman’s head are forcing him to do it & not because he suddenly gets it.  Goffman has always known what made Sleepy Hollow a success which is why he actively works against it because that’s not how he wanted it to become successful. I never gave him the benefit of the doubt because since season one he’s directly & indirectly stated in various interviews that when it came to this show what was really important to him was Katrina, Ichabod, Henry/Jeremy, Abraham & basically anything that could be directly linked to Crane Family Drama, so why would I waste time lying to myself about where his priorities for the show really were.

 

At least in season one though for many fans who either didn’t care about CFD or cared very little about it, there was still a way to escape from it for a bit because of the Mills sisters & Irving family storylines which the other showrunners that played a more active role in season one had more use for at that time than Goffman did. As if some people couldn’t already tell from last season that he loved Katrina above all other characters from the way he spoke about her in interviews but a few weeks ago I read a comment from a viewer that said she read an interview from him where he flat out admitted that Katrina is his favorite character so she couldn’t understand why he wrote her so poorly. His lack of any real use for Abbie who is supposed to be the “leading lady” on the show has always been obvious to some fans though because even before all of this season’s backlash Goffman has gone out of his way to not mention her or not discuss much about her storylines in interviews even when an interviewer directly asked him about her. I always got the feeling though that Goffman mostly tolerated Abbie as a leading lady because in the beginning he was one of many people that had a voice in putting this show together & because he has no real background in the sci-fi/fantasy genre like Orci & Kurtzman do but now that he’s had more say in what happened during season two, the show is reflecting what he always saw as his true vision for the show.

 

Also when he’s not ignoring Abbie, he can be downright disrespectful as hell. Before season two started I will never forget the uproar some of his comments concerning leaving Abbie in purgatory caused. After season one ended Goffman talked about how he wanted to leave Abbie there for an extended period of time. Some fans didn’t really have an issue with her being there for like 2-3 episodes max but I think I remember Goffman making comments about leaving her there for the first 10 episodes of season two. Those fans didn’t believe he was “joking” because he kept making snide comments about how Katrina had spent 200 years there, so he hoped Abbie had packed some clean underwear for her long stay in purgatory. There are probably some clips of him talking about it on YouTube.

 

I think it was at PaleyFest in March where fans at that event got to see an advanced screening of the first thirty minutes of the first episode of season two & from what I remember them describing it was different from season two’s episode one that was aired in the fall for the television audience. I may be mixing it up with another event though because there have been a few media/fan events since the first season ended that involved a screening of a season two episode. It was a while ago but I think it was mentioned by some who attended that screening that Ichabod/Andy, Ichabod/Luke, or Ichabod/Andy/Luke all teamed up at various points in that episode to try & free Abbie from purgatory. I do remember promotional photos being released that showed Ichabod & Abbie in the pink dollhouse from the season one finale as well as a cop car coming towards what looked like a modern day war reenactment scene which if I’m remembering correctly Ichabod was in the middle of. I think people mentioned that it was supposed to be Andy in that cop car. I read that when FOX heard about Goffman’s original plans to leave Abbie in purgatory for an extended period of time, that idea was nixed because separating your two leads for more than half of an 18 episode order when that is what made your show successful in the first place didn’t make much sense to them & so those first couple of episodes were reshot. When the media asked Goffman & I think Len Wiseman why they decided to make changes to the first couple of episodes, I think they gave some excuse but I can’t remember what it was. They did say that some of those scenes would be seen at a later date & I think I remember reading a few weeks ago from a fan who attended the screening that the scene in the beginning of “Mama”, when Abbie is dreaming about seeing her mom in purgatory was one of those scenes that they saw during the screening of the original season two first episode. Goffman & the other showrunners during the summer hiatus did mention that Abbie would encounter people in purgatory that would help her & some of those characters fans wouldn’t expect. Fans guessed that Abbie might see people like her mother, father, Jenny, Andy, Corbin, & Grace but when the first episode of season two aired & the only person she came across was Andy before she escaped with Ichabod people knew that the original plans for season two definitely changed for the show.

 

There were people who watch Sleepy Hollow that mentioned being burned by FOX in the past when it came to sci-fi/fantasy shows like Firefly but some of them said that they had to give FOX credit when they heard that it was the network that nixed Goffman’s original plan of keeping Abbie in purgatory for the first 10 episodes because after watching how the writing for Abbie took a dip this season even without her being stashed away there & after watching the mid season finale, which was the eleventh episode of the season, they suspected that Goffman originally planned to free Abbie from purgatory as a way to help promote the mid season finale & the big reveal for those who were still watching was supposed to be Moloch being released on Earth & Henry being the one to kill him. Those fans felt that once the originally plans for Abbie were nixed, the showrunners had to settle for promoting a beloved character’s death, which ended up being Irving, along with the Henry/Moloch reveal but none of that helped the ratings because people had already begun to walk away from this show long before the mid season finale took place. With the way this show sidelined Jenny & Frank plus Goffman’s feelings about Abbie & anything not Crane family drama related, some fans saw his original plans for Abbie in purgatory as not really a way to give her a real storyline arc but as a way to sideline & stash her away there while he built up Katrina & the Crane Family Drama & if it proved to be a success, then he would feel more justified if he chose to one day kill her off in the human form like he did with Irving even if she somehow remained on the show in another form. The Huffington Post writer that wrote some negative reviews regarding how season two was playing out & also discussed her disappointment with it on her podcast basically confirmed that the big twist/reveal that Goffman let her in on during the summer was the Moloch/Henry reveal but before the mid season finale aired she said she wasn’t sure the writers would be able to pull it off because she didn’t really think they were building up to the mid season finale in a compelling way. I don’t know if she knew that a beloved character would die but I think she did question why the show didn’t kill off a less interesting character like Katrina instead of Irving. 

 

A couple of weeks ago I read a comment from someone on Tumblr who listened to an episode of The Nerdist Sleepy Hollow podcast & she said that one of the producers/writers mentioned that it was FOX that requested the “Mama” episode, so if that is true then even though Goffman mentioned during the summer that they would be exploring more of Abbie & the Mills family’s history this season, that really only happened because his bosses at FOX were literally making him do it, so that led to some fans once again giving FOX credit. Honestly though if FOX needs to tell a showrunner something as simple as him needing to write an episode that explores the backstory of one of the two leads & they don’t replace Goffman with a more competent showrunner after the season is done or aren’t able to convince Orci & Kurtzman to take a more active role with the show in season three like in season one, then hopefully for those fans who have issues with the show but still want to see some changes made while they continue to watch get some news after this season that FOX is at least going to hire some additional people in positions of power who actually have a background in the sci-fi/fantasy genre & care about exploring the backstories of all the regular characters and not just those who have Crane as a last name.

Oh my God! This is the scariest thing I've read all month about Sleepy Hollow. It's one thing to suspect this, but quite another to see proof.

Wow - we thought Goffman really didn't like Abbie and was trying to sideline her so he could kill her off (still not sure he won't still try it) - but that is completely true.

I guess I'm not coming back to this show unless FOX fires Goffman.

We should start a campaign. Wasn't there a link to a petition? I need to sign it.

And we need to send an avalanche of something to Fox to get them to fire Goffman and stop SH's downward spiral.

[jhlipton]

It's like what might have happened if Buffy TVS had lost Joss Whedon in season two and the new showrunner had decided to downplay the emphasis on vampire slaying, ... and the show became about the new blended family with a side of wacky supernatural hijinx.

Marti Noxon?

[MissAlmond]

Moonsky speaks the truth.

 

When the Sony e-mail leaks and the Aaron Sorkin and the banning of the writer’s room stories came out, I immediately thought of Mark Goffman and Sleepy Hollow.  One of my first postings stated Goffman doesn’t believe “this is who he is”.  I can also see all these newbie writers agreeing with him, even if internally they believe he’s wrong.

 

Knowing now of Goffman’s background in politics, every move he makes is so clear.  He’s not a stupid man, make no mistake about that.  Like Moonsky said, he knows exactly what he’s doing.  He always said what his vision was, people simply discounted it because they believed he was teasing the audience.  But I always believed him and knew immediately after the Headless reveal where this show was going. Sadly I see no escape either because Goffman has found the perfect show, network to keep his vision - at least up to Season 3 - alive.  One more season may be all he wants from SH anyway.

 

Think about it.  Chances are slim to none that Kutzman and Orci will step in.  They are the new breed of TV show creators.  Big names who get the ball rolling, most only have a hand in the pilot episode, but some stick around for Season 1.  But after that, they’re off to bigger projects, their names forever on the show credits, but they themselves are gone.  Think David Fincher with “House of Cards”.  How many episodes did he actually direct after the pilot?  But HOC won’t lose its focus on who was first presented as the lead character. Kevin Spacey, unlike Nicole Behaire, has an Oscar and producer credit in hand.  There will be no Mark Goffman making Spacey’s character an after thought on that show.  For the leads of SH, this is their big break.  SH doesn’t have old school creators who stick around to make sure their vision remains.  Make no mistake, love Sons of Anarchy or hate it, the vision remains Kurt Sutter’s.  That’s how true creators take care of their shows. 

 

 

FOX?  Fox has bigger problems than Sleepy Hollow, their ratings this year is a total mess.  No matter how bad things are, the last I heard, SH still remained their #2 scripted show.  Goffman is probably smart enough to also realize there’s lingering suspicion over FOX’s motives.  So he tosses the network a bone every now and then, satisfies the network he’s “fixed” things and once the executives turn their attention to their other problems, Goffman goes right back to his vision.  If the ratings continue their slide, disappointed viewers won’t blame him.  They’ll blame FOX. 

 

 

New showrunner?  Goffman is one of the producer, I doubt he will fire himself.  Besides, who will this new showrunner be?  Albert Kim?  Raven Metzner?  Phil Iscove may be the real creator, but no network is going hand a show over to a newbie like him.  That’s why Kutzman and Orci had to pitch Iscove’s idea in the first place.  Those newbie writers won’t get the job either, after reading about Sorkin, I’m sure they’re keeping their heads down to make sure they’re not locked out of the writers room.  I do know there is someone else in that room whose name escapes me, perhaps they would do right by this show. 

 

 

Yes folks, Goffman the politician, turned showrunner knows the game he’s playing.  He appeases FOX when he has to, throws out a bone to Ichabbie fans to get them to shut up, parcels out hope things will change (Abbie’s story will be shown in future seasons - as if SH will get that), takes Maureen Ryan’s tough questions and spins answers back to his vision, tells those who refuse to stop questioning him that he feels attack and they aren’t true fans anyway.  And he knows his constituency.  He also probably figures that even some of his attackers will keep tuning in, if nothing more, to support the actors.  Heck, he’s even really thrown his favorite leading lady to the wolves.  Note those hashtags are all about Katrina, not #ShowrunnersBetterthanMarkGoffman.  Goffman will be fine in the industry because most viewers haven’t a clue about the behind the scenes people.  Katia Winters, OTOH, might not be as lucky.

 

 

I guess that’s why I can’t quit reading postings about SH.  It’s like a crazy fascinating case study of how to ruin a show with  the person charge not caring because their unpopular vision is what matters.  I just hope one day in the future, one of those newbies  will make it big in the industry.  Then, when confronted with a Mark Goffman, immediately step in and correct things, telling their grateful fans: “I learned what to do years ago while working on Sleepy Hollow . . .”.

[DeLurker]

LaLaLaLa - I can't hear you

LaLaLaLa - I can't hear you

 

Unplugs ears to call MissAlmond the grinchiest grinch whoever grinched.

 

LaLaLaLa ...

[MissAlmond]

LOL, DeLurker!  Perhaps I'm really Mark Goffman’s Sandman.

 

 

I do want to take a moment to give another round of applause to Maureen Ryan.  Not only did she try to catch the slippery eel that is Mark Goffman, but she’s one of the few (if only) people with access to the show to openly state SH was afraid of their leads chemistry.   Because they are, you know.

 

But when you think about, what was wrong with the shipping of Ichabod and Abbie?  Weren’t these viewers simply reacting to the chemistry they saw on TV? Was not that same chemistry stated over and over again as the show’s greatest strength?  Did any so-called shipper ask  the show become The Ichabbie Love Story or they simply state to make it "end game"?  Would some of the viewers kept insisting these two remain friends forever if the chemistry existed between Ichabod and Katrina?  And if these fans didn't want romance all that much, why are they gushing about it when it comes to Katrina?  And what would be so wrong about a show that ended up two friends realizing it was love by the last episode?  Was this not the premise of When Harry Met Sally?  Isn’t that why that movie included Rodgers and Hart’s “I Could Write a Book?” Did moviegoers jump up in protest stating they wanted Harry and Sally two characters to remain friends at the end?   Don’t get me started with the whole brother-sister conversations.  Outside of “Flowers in the Attic” what sane showrunner wants their show’s brother/sister characters  to have that sort of chemistry? 

 

 

Goffman could have even had another nod to Washington Irving..  As someone pointed out on another board, the short story ends with Ichabod Crane never being seen again.  Her suggestion was this was because Ichabod Crane had jumped into the 21st century.   But did that thought ever occur to Goffman?  That here was yet another twist with a tie to Washington Irving he could use?  And what’s with killing off Frank when Frank should be there at the end writing The Legend of Sleepy Hollow?  Of course, now I’m reading Frank might come back after all, but I don’t know if that was always Goffman’s plan or just another bone to shut people up.  Because as long as it doesn’t impact Goffman’s All Things Katrina vision, he’s willing to toss a bone now and then. 

 

 

Instead of mocking critics with pictures of writers reading Screenwriters for Dummies, perhaps Mark Goffman should stop and actually read the book.  I suggest starting with the chapters dealing with “How Not to Let it Look a Gift Horse in the Mouth”.  Future editions will be revised to include the chapter entitled: "Mark Goffman and the Egomaniac Showrunner”.

[HalcyonDays]

MissAlmond, this is a beautiful comment, I have to say. I'm going to reply to this part:

 

I do want to take a moment to give another round of applause to Maureen Ryan.  Not only did she try to catch the slippery eel that is Mark Goffman, but she’s one of the few (if only) people with access to the show to openly state SH was afraid of their leads chemistry.   Because they are, you know.

 

They are, aren't they? Totally afraid of the leads chemistry. They just don't know what to do with it, but at the same time, USE IT to manipulate the viewers. That is the subtle difference (I love the term slippery eel, btw). But there really is nothing to be done with it. Like, they don't have to compensate or over compensate. Just write the leads with a platonic bond, and let Beharie and Mison bring that platonic vibe alive, because that's what they do best, bringing the feelings and connection alive. Let them do the heavy lifting. However, it is the job of the director, and of the overall vision of the show to tell the actors to do things certain way. That hug too long and lingering? Cut, retake and film a shorter, more platonic one. That look towards Abbie too much like eye-banging or eyebrow innuendo? Cut, retake and tell Mison to cut it out (however lovely and sexy and intense his eyes and eyebrows may be). It's that simple.

 

You cannot have your cake and eat it too, show. Just write them as friends and that's it. Maybe someday down the line, sure, but if not, it doesn't matter, because the bond is there. So stop forcing things, which is what these guys are doing. I know many will chalk it up to racism, but I don't think so. I honestly believe that Goffman is so enamoured of Katrina/Katia whatever/whoever, that he will do whatever it takes to push her down our throat. That is why everyone on the show has suffered as a result, not just the CoC (Characters of Colour). Everyone has suffered, and in Goffman and cos' little fantasy world, ironically so has Katrina, but they don't seem to realize that, just like they don't realize that you don't have to force the Cranes marriage, just like you don't have to fight against Ichabbie. When you have the female writers joking over Katrina being knocked up in Deliverance, that tells you something (and is helluva disturbing).

 

And that is yet another thing that makes no sense with these writers. If they really didn't want to focus on the chemistry, then don't focus on the chemistry. Don't write Ichabod saying sentences that sound like wedding vows. Don't have them stare lovingly at each other. Don't have scenes where Ichabod is getting off on Abbie getting off on him driving like a maniac. Don't have scenes like when the bank credit card guy mistook Abbie for Ichabod's fiance. It's one thing to not play into the chemistry, its another to tease the audience, then stomp your feet saying No, No! It's Katrina, it's always Katrina.

 

Then, we get Goffman in a corner thinking like this: Ichabod really me, Mark Goffman LOVES Katrina, she is perfect, this marriage is perfect, there are tons of no flaws,  we see too much no chemistry between the leads, they act like they are married already sister/brother, because Crane really me loves Katrina because she is pretty and tall and red and wonderful and I, Mark Goffman Ichabod will make the viewers believe this...

[kimberella]

But when you think about, what was wrong with the shipping of Ichabod and Abbie?

 

Because Abbie is black. Let's not kid ourselves here. When have TPTB of any show with a white female lead gone to such lengths, to reassure the audience, that she is a strong woman that needs no man and that she's too busy fighting evil forces for romance? Never, not when the male partner somehow finds the time for it. When they felt the need to make clear romantic love was out of the question for Abbie, I took this as a very serious red flag (something many people here are aware of), because the end results never fail: this is bad news for the character. Yes, Goffman goes one step further is a blatant Abbie/Nicole hater, but the other producers haven't been precisely on Abbie's side either.

 

They reacted to the criticism about this blatant misogynoir by promising some hot romance for Abbie in S2, but it turned out they were lying. They just wanted to shut down the criticism, while they pushed their true agenda: the Cranes as the true focus of the show and the sidelining of the POC.They hate that people didn't fall in love with Katrina and the romance between the Cranes, because they intended, from the very beginning, to sideline and very possibly get rid of Abbie. It's the good old bait and switch. The same way they used to bait Ichabbie, they baited diversity, but they never intended to deliver.

[fantique]

  He appeases FOX when he has to, throws out a bone to Ichabbie fans to get them to shut up, parcels out hope things will change (Abbie’s story will be shown in future seasons - as if SH will get that), takes Maureen Ryan’s tough questions and spins answers back to his vision, tells those who refuse to stop questioning him that he feels attack and they aren’t true fans anyway. 

See, love your post but I have an issue (both with fans AND the creative team) because I don't see how Abbie backstory means Ichabbie moment... The two are not sufficient conditions for one another. I can like Abbie without thinking she should be with him. How is showing her history with her mom Ichabbie fuel?

 

But when you think about, what was wrong with the shipping of Ichabod and Abbie?  Weren’t these viewers simply reacting to the chemistry they saw on TV? Was not that same chemistry stated over and over again as the show’s greatest strength?  Did any so-called shipper ask  the show become The Ichabbie Love Story or they simply state to make it "end game"?  

That's a good point... Most Ichabbie shippers I talk to are not like "GET NAKED NOW", more like "Aww, I so want to see them falling for each other later on."

 

You cannot have your cake and eat it too, show. Just write them as friends and that's it. Maybe someday down the line, sure, but if not, it doesn't matter, because the bond is there. So stop forcing things, which is what these guys are doing. 

 

And that is yet another thing that makes no sense with these writers. If they really didn't want to focus on the chemistry, then don't focus on the chemistry. Don't write Ichabod saying sentences that sound like wedding vows.

ALL I CAN SAY IS YEEEESSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ugh, he is so stupid, it hurts. They need to get their shit together. Although their failure is its own source of entertainment.

Edited December 23, 2014 by fantique

[fantique]

Because Abbie is black. Let's not kid ourselves here. When have TPTB of any show with a white female lead gone to such lengths, to reassure the audience, that she is a strong woman that needs no man and that she's too busy fighting evil forces for romance? Never, not when the male partner somehow finds the time for it. 

Ok, I fucking hate Goffman and I think he should go away to a TV land far, far away from Sleepy Hollow, make his own show with KW and let it flop gloriously. The one agenda I do not believe him or his team has is some kind of racist slighting of the black characters. They had a concept with the two witnesses being buds and got taken aback. He is also peeved that a character that he likes is basically shoved to the side because so few people are into her when Abbie is a clearly better alternative. That's just what happens when there is a chemistry black hole with an established pairing, people just start to think "well if A is in a sucky relationship with B why not get with C?"

 

Also the whole when does a white female character goes all "strong woman who does not need a man" is one of THE most overtired procedural/political tv show tropes EVER. So many shows with a leading woman who's a cop, lawyer, politician, etc. have had her portrayed as not having time for romance while their male counterparts are having a very healthy love/sex life. Or if they are married, they are basically sexless and some lamely predictable divorce proceedings happen at one point or another. Here's an example in the sci-fi/fantasy genre: Fringe basically had the lead female have an ex that became a villain and then kept the co-leads not romantic until the third season with hints here and there while the guy still had romantic interests introduced and her only other love interest was obviously put there as a foil for the burgeoning relationship with the two leads in season 4. They pretty much presented her as the "don't have the time for this", workaholic type and she had so much trouble asking for help or letting herself be vulnerable with others. 

 

This is absolutely not a rarity.

[jhlipton]

Also the whole when does a white female character goes all "strong woman who does not need a man" is one of THE most overtired procedural/political tv show tropes EVER. So many shows with a leading woman who's a cop, lawyer, politician, etc. have had her portrayed as not having time for romance while their male counterparts are having a very healthy love/sex life. 

 

Bones, Castle, Defiance (both Amanda and Stahma), Buffy...

[MissAlmond]

Oh, I know the reason Kimberella.  Mark Goffman isn't fooling me fooling me.  

 

Fantique, my comment on Abbie's back story had nothing to do with Ichabbie.  I was referring to Goffman's "Nerdist" where he stated Abbie's story would be played out in later "seasons".  To me that's another Goffman bone, yes, I do have a plan for Abbie.  Just trust me, keep watching and you'll see.   All the while knowing SH at the moment is almost a Dead Show Walking.  Even experts who predict Season 3 have added it's because currently FOX has nothing to replace it with. 

 

As for the shippers, as far as I could see not a single one demanded SH turn into a love story.  The chemistry was strong enough without the writers changing a single word they wrote.  All these viewers wanted and asked for was end game.  Even Monk gave that to viewers who remembered the early chemistry between Sharona and Randy. This was a show where, not only was Sharona's character not in it for years, but the actress herself had left on bad terms.  That's respect.  Would it have hurt this show to give these viewers who kept SH alive in social media this gift?  All SH had to do was on the last episode have Ichabod decide to stay in the 21st century with Abbie.  As the person who came up with this suggestion stated, this also would have also given the writers one more twist on the orginial short story.  It would explain the why on Ichabod Crane never again being seen in the Sleepy Hollow of old.  And considering TV hasn't had years and years of black female/white male co-leads period, much less ones with amazing chemistry whose characters later fall in love, it's hardly an old, well known troupe.

[Moonsky]

When the Sony e-mail leaks and the Aaron Sorkin and the banning of the writer’s room stories came out, I immediately thought of Mark Goffman and Sleepy Hollow.  One of my first postings stated Goffman doesn’t believe “this is who he is”.  I can also see all these newbie writers agreeing with him, even if internally they believe he’s wrong.

 

I didn't watch The West Wing but I do know that Goffman worked as a writer for that show. I don't know for how long though. I know that his personality is off-putting to some people, but I wouldn't be surprised if he picked up on some of Sorkin's traits as well.

 

Knowing now of Goffman’s background in politics, every move he makes is so clear.  He’s not a stupid man, make no mistake about that.  Like Moonsky said, he knows exactly what he’s doing.  He always said what his vision was, people simply discounted it because they believed he was teasing the audience.  But I always believed him and knew immediately after the Headless reveal where this show was going. Sadly I see no escape either because Goffman has found the perfect show, network to keep his vision - at least up to Season 3 - alive.  One more season may be all he wants from SH anyway.

 

Yep, he might be shooting himself in the foot regarding some of his choices for the show but I've always chalked that up to more of a stubborness factor in terms of forcing his vision on the audience instead of him being genuinely surprised that there is a large portion of the audience that isn't quietly sitting back and eating up what he's serving. FOX's current overall struggles as a network makes this the perfect playground for him right now.

 

Think about it.  Chances are slim to none that Kutzman and Orci will step in.  They are the new breed of TV show creators.  Big names who get the ball rolling, most only have a hand in the pilot episode, but some stick around for Season 1.  But after that, they’re off to bigger projects, their names forever on the show credits, but they themselves are gone.  Think David Fincher with “House of Cards”.  How many episodes did he actually direct after the pilot?  But HOC won’t lose its focus on who was first presented as the lead character. Kevin Spacey, unlike Nicole Behaire, has an Oscar and producer credit in hand.  There will be no Mark Goffman making Spacey’s character an after thought on that show.  For the leads of SH, this is their big break.  SH doesn’t have old school creators who stick around to make sure their vision remains.  Make no mistake, love Sons of Anarchy or hate it, the vision remains Kurt Sutter’s.  That’s how true creators take care of their shows.

 

Yes, the leads on Sleepy Hollow may have fan & media support which can give them a certain amount of "power" but it's not the type of real power that more well known actors may have. Even as early as one or two seasons into a show, there are some actors with real name recognition that are given a consistent say in how their characters are developed, can pitch storyline ideas, change dialogue with genuine support from the showrunners/writers, are allowed to direct episodes, etc. but even if the leads of Sleepy Hollow have some say in anything that happens with the show, it's not at the level as certain leads on even some new shows. For example, How To Get Away With Murder just started but Viola Davis has already had significant behind the scenes input on some of her character's dialogue in scenes, her clothing choices, having a say in her character being able to go without wearing makeup onscreen, etc. in a way that Nicole Beharie will probably never receive during her entire tenure with Sleepy Hollow.

 

FOX?  Fox has bigger problems than Sleepy Hollow, their ratings this year is a total mess.  No matter how bad things are, the last I heard, SH still remained their #2 scripted show.  Goffman is probably smart enough to also realize there’s lingering suspicion over FOX’s motives.  So he tosses the network a bone every now and then, satisfies the network he’s “fixed” things and once the executives turn their attention to their other problems, Goffman goes right back to his vision.  If the ratings continue their slide, disappointed viewers won’t blame him.  They’ll blame FOX.

 

This is why as bad as this season's ratings are, I've never really doubted that Sleepy Hollow would get a third season because the ratings for FOX shows as a whole are terrible. If Sleepy Hollow aired on CBS, ABC, or NBC, then the chances of being renewed for a third season would be something that viewers should be more worried about but there are shows on even the CW that get better ratings than some shows on FOX, so Sleepy Hollow could lose another million overall viewers between the start of the second half of season 2 till the end of season 2 & Goffman would still be able to feel somewhat comfortable in his position. Forget great ratings, FOX doesn't even have that many shows that are pulling in good ratings for them, so it's not like they can drop Sleepy Hollow from their line up right now. Even the FOX shows that sometimes get better publicity like The Mindy Project & Brooklyn Nine-Nine bring in lower ratings, so a show like Sleepy Hollow that lost viewers last season & even more between the season 2 premiere & the mid season finale still gives them around 4 to 4.5 million live viewers, so FOX isn't going to give up on Sleepy Hollow just yet, especially if they don't have anything to replace it with in that Monday 9PM EST timeslot. What FOX might do if the ratings continue to slide in the second half of season 2 & they feel that the ratings for season 3 might fall to an average of around 3 million live viewers, is maybe decide to reduce the number of episodes for season three to about 13-15, change the night the show airs on if they decide to introduce a new show into the Monday night line up during the fall, & reduce the shows overall budget for season 3 as a way to cut cost.

 

The real issue in terms of the show's ratings is will it be able to last for five seasons or more, especially if FOX is able to find more success with other shows they will eventually introduce to their Monday-Friday lineups thus allowing them to not really rely on Sleepy Hollow as much as they do now for success. The reason why FOX executives, the media, & fans made such a big deal out of Sleep Hollow's initial success is because the series premiere was viewed by over 10 million live viewers which is not the type of ratings FOX has been able to count on for a long time, so to see the live viewership for a season one hit show lose more than half that amount in less than two seasons is unbelievable to a lot of people.

 

New showrunner?  Goffman is one of the producer, I doubt he will fire himself.  Besides, who will this new showrunner be?  Albert Kim?  Raven Metzner?  Phil Iscove may be the real creator, but no network is going hand a show over to a newbie like him.  That’s why Kutzman and Orci had to pitch Iscove’s idea in the first place.  Those newbie writers won’t get the job either, after reading about Sorkin, I’m sure they’re keeping their heads down to make sure they’re not locked out of the writers room.  I do know there is someone else in that room whose name escapes me, perhaps they would do right by this show.

 

I never watched the CW's Nikita but people who did were excited when Albert Kim joined Sleepy Hollow before season two started because they thought that was a plus for Jenny's storyline. I think Kim even publicly mentioned that he was looking forward to working with Lyndie Greenwood again. That connection hasn't really worked for Jenny though. It might be because he really isn't that interested in the character or that even though he's a producer, Goffman still has seniority over him so if he's not really interested in developing Jenny more, then there is only so much Kim feels he can do right now or there may be other reasons but yeah that previous relationship hasn't been a plus so far in terms of screen time & storyline quality.

 

Raven Metzner isn't really the right option either. There were complaints about that potential Abbie/Nick/Jenny triangle because many fans felt that it didn't make sense for these specific sisters to be fighting over any man for many reasons. When it started to play out a bit onscreen, some fans felt like this was some kind of self insert fantasy storyline. Well Metzner confirmed those suspicions on an episode of The Nerdist Sleepy Hollow podcast when he admitted that the reason that storyline was even pitched was because when he attended PaleyFest in March, he noticed for the first time how hot Lyndie Greenwood was (he even mentioned the light blue dress she was wearing) & wanted to see a more sexy side of her in a dress & with her hair down on the show. He even said he had to beg Albert Kim & the other showrunners to allow him to play out this storyline. Even though some fans had suspected that this was some kind of self insert storyline they were even more pissed when they got confirmation because Jenny had already been sidelined for a bit by that time in the season, so to find out that the only reason the writers finally dusted her off again was so that she could appear at the end of that episode for her two minute scene with Hawley that involved their kiss & not because the showrunners genuinely cared about showing more of her character angered them even more & even though she wasn't wearing a dress, the show sure did remember to leave her hair down for that scene.

 

Yeah, even though Sleepy Hollow was Iscove's original concept, the chance of him running the entire show are slim to none.  Besides Orci & Kurtzman, there were other producers with the show during season one. I think Jose Molina stopped working on the show & I'm not sure how much Ken Olin & Heather Kadin deal with the show on a day to day basis.  Orci, Kurtzman, & Hadin's show Scorpion on CBS airs at the same time as Sleepy Hollow and gives them twice the ratings, so they most likely prioritize that show over Sleepy Hollow anyway. When it comes to the producers that were there since season one, I think it's Goffman mostly running the day to day operations & the new producers he does work with on a more everyday basis are Kim & Metzner who most likely aren't the answer to some of this shows woes either.

 

Edited December 24, 2014 by Moonsky

[fantique]

Raven Metzner isn't really the right option either. There were complaints about that potential Abbie/Nick/Jenny triangle because many fans felt that it didn't make sense for these specific sisters to be fighting over any man for many reasons. When it started to play out a bit onscreen, some fans felt like this was some kind of self insert fantasy storyline. Well Metzner confirmed those suspicions on an episode of The Nerdist Sleepy Hollow podcast when he admitted that the reason that storyline was even pitched was because when he attended PaleyFest in March, he noticed for the first time how hot Lyndie Greenwood was (he even mentioned the light blue dress she was wearing) & wanted to see a more sexy side of her in a dress & with her hair down on the show. He even said he had to beg Albert Kim & the other showrunners to allow him to play out this storyline. Even though some fans had suspected that this was some kind of self insert storyline they were even more pissed when they got confirmation because Jenny had already been sidelined for a bit by that time in the season, so to find out that the only reason the writers finally dusted her off again was so that she could appear at the end of that episode for her two minute scene with Hawley that involved their kiss & not because the showrunners genuinely cared about showing more of her character angered them even more & even though she wasn't wearing a dress, the show sure did remember to leave her hair down for that scene.

Isn't that whole story literally sexual harassment? That's disgusting, why the hell would he even think that it's appropriate to say something like that publicly? I would be pretty creeped out if I were Lyndie. GROSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Moonsky]

Isn't that whole story literally sexual harassment? That's disgusting, why the hell would he even think that it's appropriate to say something like that publicly? I would be pretty creeped out if I were Lyndie. GROSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

It is disgusting & I know that actresses/actors do deal with unwanted sexual advances from people in positions of power (ex: casting couch) but I would still be creeped out by it. Fans couldn’t believe that he thought it was okay to publicly admit to something like that & they didn’t like how the host who is a female didn’t call him out on it. Maybe the writers room had people who knew better last season or at least knew how to publicly conduct themselves better but that’s why fans have looked at this season writers room as having a frat house mentality that’s also filled with some overgrown middle aged men. Even the few female writers aren’t exempt from this type of behavior because when “Deliverance” aired many of the male & female writers were on Twitter making sexist jokes about Katrina being barefoot & pregnant as well as being knocked up by her own son, so you can imagine when fans had a problem with this storyline these were the type of people they were having to deal with.

Edited December 24, 2014 by Moonsky

[TV Juriste]

 

I guess that’s why I can’t quit reading postings about SH.  It’s like a crazy fascinating case study of how to ruin a show with  the person charge not caring because their unpopular vision is what matters.  I just hope one day in the future, one of those newbies  will make it big in the industry.  Then, when confronted with a Mark Goffman, immediately step in and correct things, telling their grateful fans: “I learned what to do years ago while working on Sleepy Hollow . . .”.

I'm right there with you -- I'm obsessed with reading everything possible about Sleepy Hollow not even because of the show anymore. I'm trying to read between the lines of EVERYTHING to discern what might be going on behind the scenes. The show will be case study in terms of how to switch directions on a hit show, fan-writer/producer interaction, and (I sincerely hope) how a show in a sophomore slump reboots and rebounds in Season 3.

Edited December 24, 2014 by TV Juriste

[Indi]

Fringe basically had the lead female have an ex that became a villain and then kept the co-leads not romantic until the third season.

 

Actually, the romantic interest between the two leads began mid-season two, even if their relationship didn't begin till mid-season three. Olivia had other romantic interests other than her dead boyfriend and her co-lead and one of them happened as early as S1. Full make-out session, that was interrupted because of work, of course. However, the showrunners never said she was a "strong woman that needs no man", as kimberella said or that she'd never have time for love, unlike his male counterpart. They showed her displaying romantic feelings for her dead boyfriend and they actually explored some of that relationship during the first half of S1. They showed her romantic encounter with another ex during a mission also in S1. The second half of S2 and S3 explored her feelings for Peter. Olivia is a really bad example.