S02.E09: Karmic Retribution

[Cranberry]

Amy, Karma and Liam find themselves at odds during a school-wide social experiment.

 

How long do you think they've been wanting to use that title?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBCDHUOVbSs

 

[JaM]

based on that look in her face, Karma will be probably in denial initially..

[Cranberry]

Another promo!

 

[Cranberry]

And a sneak peek:

 

[ybrik]

Wow the denial is strong in Karma. She seemed so desperate to believe that Liam took advantage of Amy even though I think she knew the truth deep down. I did like her calling out Liam on his whole honesty bs.

 

Amy really needs to work on the whole lying thing. It is like her default mode. Something tells me her trying to keep this from Reagan is going to bite her. Also what did she really think Karma was going to say when she asked Karma to forgive them both or hate them both.

 

This episode really tried too hard with the Hunger game theme. It just seemed so forced.

 

So once again Shane causes a chaos for his own personal agenda (getting his phone back).

 

Lauren was great as usual.

[mjgchick]

I love their school. lmao My high school was a bit as crazy on the special group things as well but Penelope takes it to the limit on school activities.

 

Amy really does have a habit of making things worse for herself by lying. I guess this is when we feel sorry for Karma because I really did and not because of Liam but because of Amy. She seemed in denial the moment she hugged Amy but at the same time it felt like she was pissed at Amy for taking to long to admit the truth. It's the way she was talking to her. I felt so bad. Katie, Rita and Bailey are the best on this show along with the actress who plays Amy's mom.

 

Mean while Theo/Leo might not be a cop but I still think he's the one leaving. In the promo they made it seem like Liam is leaving though.

 

Can Shane not be a mess? If he's not outing people he's starting chaos just to get what he wants.

 

And finally, none of these are likable people. Well maybe Amy when she's not being an asshole because of rejection. Or Lauren when she's not trying to put up a front about how she really feels. It's probably why I'll continue watching.

[Misty79]

This episode was very slickly produced, definitely enjoyable, but I didn't find it satisfying. The writers are continuing with their Liam is a martyr trope, which was painful. Is Amy really this slippery and weak willed? If she truly loved her best friend in the way we were led to believe in S1 she would have been the one pushing to tell Karma from the get go, not the other way around. But then I don't get how the character Amy was in most of S1 would have slept with Liam at all, so yeah...

 

Karma's reactions all felt spot on though. Denial made sense, she was just buying herself time, really, before having to deal with the reality of Amy's betrayal. Katie did a good job in this episode. 

 

I liked the music choice for the end montage too. 

[Gulftastic]

Now that Amy has come clean to Karma, I hope she quickly does the same with Reagan. Lying to her won't end well.

 

And Lauren was a star again. I love her.

[Black Knight]

Wow the denial is strong in Karma. She seemed so desperate to believe that Liam took advantage of Amy even though I think she knew the truth deep down. I did like her calling out Liam on his whole honesty bs.

 

Amy really needs to work on the whole lying thing. It is like her default mode. Something tells me her trying to keep this from Reagan is going to bite her. Also what did she really think Karma was going to say when she asked Karma to forgive them both or hate them both.

Amy needs to learn that ultimatums usually result in the other person choosing the option you don't want them to choose. But of course, there she is in the previews all "You need to decide right now whether I'm in your life or not," so apparently she hasn't learned it yet.

 

I really liked that initially Karma tried to blame Liam for everything and excuse Amy completely. First from a writing perspective, it worked because it means that her reactions to Amy's and Liam's actions weren't all crammed into one short episode - she mostly focused on Liam in this episode, and the next episode she will mostly focus on Amy, I'm sure. From a character perspective, it said a lot about Karma. I felt like we could see influences from her upbringing in there - her parents seem the sort who, all her life, would have told her that she should assume the best rather than the worst of people, and also educated her on how in situations like these, the "other woman" so often catches all the shit while the guy gets off scot-free. Although, ironically, this did sort of happen here anyway (with the genders reversed) - Karma loves Amy more than she does anyone else, so of course she wanted to excuse Amy and heap all the blame on Liam.

 

But as posters have said, it seems that Karma did know the truth deep down and was in denial. First, the fact that she didn't seek Amy out herself. Second, the look on her face when she hugged Amy. And third, the "You wouldn't betray me like that, right?" line. And she knows how Amy lashes out when she's hurt, several times last season we saw her either try to stop Amy from doing something extreme or recount a time where Amy did something extreme, so in her heart she knew this was something that would be in character for Amy, however much she didn't want to believe it. I also had the impression that Amy knew that Karma was in denial and that that wouldn't go on forever. KS and RV both did really nice, nuanced jobs with their scenes.

 

Poor Lauren. Damn you, Theo!

[JaM]

Strong numbers for yesterday's Faking It:  845k viewers, 0.41 in P18-49,and 1.11 in F12-34! Probably best demo ratings this season, and just a little bit behind Awkward which got 0.45/1.22 ratings and 912k viewers.  I can smell Season 3 if ratings stay like this :)

[mjgchick]

Faking it goes by so fast. My emotions in a 20 minute episode plus 5 minutes of commercials always leave me wondering WTF are they going to do next week. It's probably because it's a bunch of teens. The 20 something sitcoms mostly try to get you during the mid season finales and the finales. Maybe it's because teenagers really are that emotional.

[Black Knight]

The writers are continuing with their Liam is a martyr trope, which was painful.

I don't think they made Liam out to be a martyr - true martyrdom would've been him nobly pretending that Karma's belief that he manipulated poor heartbroken vulnerable Amy into sex was correct because Karma had already been hurt enough. Instead not only did he yell at Amy about his getting all the blame, he told Karma flat-out that they both did it to hurt her as much as they could. As Karma commented to Amy immediately afterwards, Liam tried to take Amy down with him. And for what? It wasn't going to make Karma any more willing to forgive Liam, and it just hurt her even more. First he outed Amy, and then he outed her motive for the sex. Yes, it happened to be the truth, so I guess points for that - but still, it makes him anything but a martyr. A martyr would've nailed himself up on a cross about how he was going to willingly conceal Amy's role in the fiasco so that Karma would still have her best friend.

[mjgchick]

Yeah him trying to bring Amy down made him look even worse especially after Amy stopped Karma from outing Liam as the heir to Squikle. Not to mention it clearly seemed like the writers were making fun of Liam by the school turning him into a low low budget Katniss Everdeen. He could never.

[Misty79]

I don't think they made Liam out to be a martyr - true martyrdom would've been him nobly pretending that Karma's belief that he manipulated poor heartbroken vulnerable Amy into sex was correct because Karma had already been hurt enough. Instead not only did he yell at Amy about his getting all the blame, he told Karma flat-out that they both did it to hurt her as much as they could. As Karma commented to Amy immediately afterwards, Liam tried to take Amy down with him. And for what? It wasn't going to make Karma any more willing to forgive Liam, and it just hurt her even more. First he outed Amy, and then he outed her motive for the sex. Yes, it happened to be the truth, so I guess points for that - but still, it makes him anything but a martyr. A martyr would've nailed himself up on a cross about how he was going to willingly conceal Amy's role in the fiasco so that Karma would still have her best friend.

I meant more that the writers are martyring him not that Liam is martyring himself, though to be fair it's probably the wrong word. I hated that instead of an acknowledgement that they were both equally in the wrong and the requisite Karma wrath, what ultimately took centre stage was that Amy was the one who didn't want to tell Karma, the one who was actively concealing it. I feel as if all season the writers have worked really hard at painting Liam as the good guy, almost totally at Amy's expense.

[Black Knight]

I think Amy being the one who didn't want to tell Karma is completely in character. She spent all of S1 keeping her feelings a secret from Karma, and Karma had to figure it out on her own and confront Amy, and even then Amy still lied and denied it. She admitted the truth only after Karma told her she knew it was a lie. When Karma asked her why she didn't tell her, Amy said it was because she was afraid she'd lose Karma. Since "I slept with the guy you care for because I wanted to hurt you as much as possible" is exponentially likelier than "I love you" to get you kicked to the curb, I'm not surprised she spent S2 up to now keeping that a secret from Karma.

 

I should add that my POV may be colored by the fact I don't think Amy wanting to keep this a secret was necessarily an awful thing, nor do I think Liam's desire to tell the truth was necessarily a good thing. He wanted to tell the truth to ease his own conscience, which is essentially selfish. Amy also had selfish motives for not wanting to tell Karma the truth, but I do think that knowing how much Karma would be hurt was a motive for her as well. And it's hard for me to look favorably on Liam the truth-teller for telling the truth when he's screaming at Karma in front of a fourth of the school that her best friend wanted to hurt her. I winced at that when watching it. If he must tell that part of the truth, there were many better ways to reveal that incredibly painful information to Karma. I don't think the show has really come down firmly on one side of the moral question of, "Is it always better to tell the truth, even when it's going to hurt someone else tremendously, even when you're doing it to ease your own conscience?" Liam's the only one who thought telling Karma the truth would be the right thing to do; Amy, Shane and Lauren were all against it. Granted Shane and Lauren are greyer characters, but still, there are good arguments to be made both in favor and against, and I think the show has acknowledged that and that maybe for such a complex issue there's not a black-and-white "right" answer.

Edited November 20, 2014 by Black Knight

[Misty79]

Maybe. The problem is that although impulsive, I don't think that sleeping with Liam was ever in character for Amy. If you love your best friend like that (romantically and just as BFFs) you would never do something like that. Everything that flows from it feels like BS and the writers have made the decision this season to exacerbate Amy's 'crime' by having her wage a campaign of concealment, and now in the unveiling of the crime they've chosen to focus on said concealment.

I'll just be happy when this plot-line is done with. It pisses me off, obviously. :)

[Snarkette]

I feel obliged to applaud the werewolf line

[dohe]

Maybe. The problem is that although impulsive, I don't think that sleeping with Liam was ever in character for Amy. If you love your best friend like that (romantically and just as BFFs) you would never do something like that. Everything that flows from it feels like BS and the writers have made the decision this season to exacerbate Amy's 'crime' by having her wage a campaign of concealment, and now in the unveiling of the crime they've chosen to focus on said concealment.

I'll just be happy when this plot-line is done with. It pisses me off, obviously. :)

But all tv lesbians are unable to control themselves around a penis even if it hurts a friend. That is just the way tv lesbians are*.

 

As for the show matyring Liam, they sure are.  Problem is the character of Liam is played with the same note and loo - puppy dog eyes and a pout - in every scene and audiences, except persons only concerned with looks, tend not to dig the person who whines about their suffering.  However the writers could not be more clear in trying to paint Liam as a saint and Amy as the weasel.   

 

*That is the catch 22 with Reagan.  On one hand, it would be nice for Reagan to get more screentime.  On the other hand, the chance of Reagan, being that she is a tv lesbian, having sex with Liam or another hunky guy at some point is highly likely if she becomes a major character.   

Edited November 20, 2014 by dohe

[Valny]

I was really expecting Karma to do the typical rip the friendship necklace off her neck and throw it at Amy thing. Looks like the necklace comes into play next week though.

This show needs to be an hour.

[Cranberry]

I called that hug! Of course, she was angry later, but that face was not an "I'm going to slap you" face.

 

I still think that Liam looks like a bigger asshole than Amy does.

 

I also sincerely doubt that Reagan will ever be interested in a guy, let alone sleep with one.

[Black Knight]

Maybe. The problem is that although impulsive, I don't think that sleeping with Liam was ever in character for Amy. If you love your best friend like that (romantically and just as BFFs) you would never do something like that. Everything that flows from it feels like BS and the writers have made the decision this season to exacerbate Amy's 'crime' by having her wage a campaign of concealment, and now in the unveiling of the crime they've chosen to focus on said concealment.

I do think it was in character for Amy, so our mileage differs. I felt the show did a good job last season of establishing that Amy is someone who unthinkingly lashes out when hurt, so much so that Karma, who is not a character who can ever be described as mature, had the function in their friendship of being the rational one who would rein - or at least try to, she notably failed at the bridal shower - Amy in. Yes, perhaps sleeping with Liam was extreme even for a girl who would make a huge scene at her mother's bridal shower or was seriously thinking of ruining her mother's wedding reception (Karma did talk her out of that one), but she was hella drunk at that point.

 

As for the concealment, I got the impression that was just something else for Karma to yell at them about, rather than the focus. Learning that Liam had wanted to tell her the truth and Amy had stopped him did not cause her to soften towards him even an iota. As she said at the end, she hates them both. The main issue isn't the lying or the sex, it's that they maliciously set out to hurt her as much as they could. The lying is an additional offense, but I don't think her reaction would have been much milder if Liam and Amy had sat her down the morning after and told her what they'd done.

 

But all tv lesbians are unable to control themselves around a penis even if it hurts a friend.

 

It's not an "even if" - hurting Karma was the entire reason why Amy (and Liam) did it. It had nothing to do with sexual attraction or desire. If they had thought of something else that would have hurt Karma even more, then they would have done that. The show underlined that heavily in this episode: The sex was entirely about hurting Karma. Amy didn't want Liam and Liam didn't want Amy.

 

However the writers could not be more clear in trying to paint Liam as a saint and Amy as the weasel.

 

I don't agree. Amy more than any of the others is the POV character of the show. She screws up, but because she has the main POV, gets the most explanation and context for her actions, she gets plenty of audience sympathy and rooting value. Yeah, she kept this secret, and for about half a day she let Karma assign all the blame to Liam, but she also came clean in the end because she felt bad for Liam. A weasel wouldn't have done that. I think she's been portrayed consistently as a generally good person who does some wrong things for understandable and sympathetic reasons - fear, love, anger - and she feels genuine remorse when she does.

 

If they wanted Liam to look like a saint, they wouldn't have Karma pointing out in this episode how hypocritical his honesty bullshit is (nobody is making Liam hide his Skwerkel connection from his classmates), or have him hurting Karma more just so that he could take Amy down with him, when he'd already acknowledged five seconds earlier that he knew that Karma wouldn't forgive him anyway. Karma was in denial because she couldn't deal with her best friend betraying her, but did Liam care that she wasn't ready to hear it? Nah, the only important thing to him was that Amy go down with him. Sure, Amy was guilty too, but telling Karma that did nothing except hurt her further. If Liam had been innocent and Amy guilty, that would have been one thing, but they're both guilty. Who was more responsible for keeping what they did a secret is not really the point. What they did was awful. If Liam were a saint, he wouldn't have done it in the first place - and he told the truth only to ease his conscience. He also showed no consideration for Karma's feelings at any point in this episode.

 

I don't think the writers want us to root against any of the main characters, really. Look at Lauren, who started out looking like the stereotypical villain but very quickly proved to have much more depth than that. None of them are saints, they've all done some awful things, but they all also have their good points and are right sometimes. It's not a show that goes for the laziness of putting all its characters neatly in boxes of heroes and villains. They're flawed teenagers trying to figure their shit out.

[dohe]

Black Knight, the rationalization that the show's creators have made up for the tv lesbian sleeping with a guy is all fine and dandy.  By this point, every rationalization that can be created by show creators for going that route have been played out.  Amy's behavior is utterly contrived and idiotic even by the low standards of the tv lesbian must make out/sleep with a man trope.  But heck the fun part is waiting for the idiotic rationalizations.  

 

As far as Reagan making out with or having sex with a man, after Amy slept with Liam and after Shane was depicted committing a sexual assault, I have no faith in this show.  At some point, it would be cool if the show's writers stopped defending this crap and apologized.

 

 

Edited November 20, 2014 by dohe

[Bossley]

My issue with this episode is I felt like it put words in Amy's mouth. I did not get the vibe Amy slept with Liam to spite Karma. She was depressed, drunk and maybe a part of her wanted to know what was so great about Liam that Karma chose him over her.

 

Part of me does think Liam took advantage of Amy to hurt Karma. I do not remember Liam drinking in the finale. If I saw someone who had evidently been crying and smelled like alcohol, I would back away. Amy may be impulsive, but callously sleeping with women was the entirety of Liam's character season one.

 

I don't know. Something about the way this episode was handled rubbed me the wrong way. Amy made a sad and drunken mistake. I feel like the show made it more intentional and malicious than it was, and I do not think those traits are consistent with Amy's character at all.

[gesundheit]

My issue with this episode is I felt like it put words in Amy's mouth. I did not get the vibe Amy slept with Liam to spite Karma. She was depressed, drunk and maybe a part of her wanted to know what was so great about Liam that Karma chose him over her.

I agree. I took issue with both Amy and Liam "acknowledging" that they'd both done it to hurt Karma as much as possible. They were both wasted, self-destructive, and completely devastated. It wasn't some strategic pre-meditated plot to hurt Karma. It was a really crappy thing to do to Karma, but they didn't do it to be crappy to Karma. If that makes sense. It was really off to me that they maintained this during this episode since it's not what we saw play out on screen at all.

Part of me does think Liam took advantage of Amy to hurt Karma. I do not remember Liam drinking in the finale. If I saw someone who had evidently been crying and smelled like alcohol, I would back away. Amy may be impulsive, but callously sleeping with women was the entirety of Liam's character season one.

He was definitely super-drunk in that finale, but yes, casual sex had been a routine thing for him whether his partner wanted it to be casual or not, so it seemed pretty in character. (And of course we knew he had a lesbian fetish.)

[RachelKM]

Part of me does think Liam took advantage of Amy to hurt Karma. I do not remember Liam drinking in the finale. If I saw someone who had evidently been crying and smelled like alcohol, I would back away. Amy may be impulsive, but callously sleeping with women was the entirety of Liam's character season one.

 

Liam was housed in that episode.  We really don't know enough about how Liam felt about anything (except LIES!!!!) nor do we know him as a character to entirely understand his motivations.

 

But I always saw Amy as simultaneously lashing out at and latching on to Karma through Liam.  She was hurt and angry and then there's Liam, the source of much of the drama over the last year and the person Karma "loves."  He was on the one hand a way to hurt Karama, but he was also connected to Karma and possibly the only person who felt a little like her toward and about Karma.  So I think there were a lot of things happening in her alcohol and emotion muddled head. And to me that's the only way it works that Amy slept with him.  It wasn't about sex, it was about Karma for good and ill.

 

And because we don't know as much about Liam, I have always sort of ascribed some of the same feelings to him with a dash of he uses sex as emotional avoidance tool. But then I have never disliked Liam as much as many people on these boards.  I definitely thought the fact that he viewed Karma being a lesbian as a challenge was gross, but it's not all he is and he seems decent enough a person.

 

In any case, I don't think he took advantage of Amy anymore than she took advantage of him.  They were both drunk and hurt and used sex in a manner that was not about caring for the other person at all.

Edited November 20, 2014 by RachelKM

[Milks26]

I think the writers made a good choice in having both Liam & Amy's defense for having sex as a tool they used to hurt Karma, since they both were on the outs with her at the time. It was a good episode.

 

It was interesting to see Karma's belief in Amy while placing the sole blame on Liam. However, it could possible switch to Liam's benefit since I can see Karma forgiving him before she would even consider that for Amy.

[JaM]

He is not a cop.. Katie Stevens at Afterbuzz TV mentioned nobody could guess what Theo is, and she asked him this a lot, and was still very surprised when she finally found out what he is.  My guess is he might be somehow involved with Liam and his family.

[RachelKM]

He is not a cop.. Katie Stevens at Afterbuzz TV mentioned nobody could guess what Theo is, and she asked him this a lot, and was still very surprised when she finally found out what he is.  My guess is he might be somehow involved with Liam and his family.

I have been thinking that his family might be Johvah's Witness or some other strict religion that prevents him from being allowed to date.  He seems genuinley nice and clean cut and he obviously likes Lauren, so I really don't think it's anything too shady, at least I hope not.  I could see how at that school, being a member of any fundamentalist type religion would make you an outsider and might be something you kept to yourself.

[wayne67]

Usually I defend Liam because I don't think he's as bad as most people make him out to be but GOD. Can any of these people avoid making their confessions of poor behavior public ? Between Amy spitefully causing a scene during his family's party and him following suit about his real mom, Karma serenading Amy 10 hours after saying she didn't love her back.

 

I'm starting to hate the 3 main characters. Admittedly I hated Karma when she said she had no idea why she liked Liam other than he was hot and popular and there has only been faint glimmers of decency since. Amy has gone from sympathetic to ridiculous lately. Liam needs to move on from Karma, she lied and faked an entire identity just to get into his orbit and I have no idea why he loves her.

 

Shane and Lauren are the only tolerable characters on the show for me lately. Though Shane and his shit stirring and outing people is getting frustrating.

 

I felt so bad for Lauren waiting around for an explanation. It sucks waiting for clarity and getting none.

[Milks26]

I read online the actor Keith Powers (Theo) will be co- staring in a new Yahoo series about some tech guy who buys a basketball team.

 

This strengthens my belief that Theo is the one who's going to leave 

[superman1204]

So I know I am a little late to the conversation (f***ing MTV wouldn't let me stream the episode until tonight for some reason), but I want to add my feelings on Liam.

 

At the beginning of the episode, when Karma said that Liam took advantage of Amy, my first thought was that Liam had somehow talked with Karma after she threw him out and convinced her that he took advantage of Amy.  Because according to Liam, the only thing he cares about is telling the truth.  So if that were the case he should have covered for Amy, because Amy did not want the secret to come out and it should have been her place to tell Karma about her part in the hookup.  Also Liam agreed they did not want to hurt Karma, so if he told Karma everything was his fault, she would still have Amy and she would be less hurt.  Basically I thought Liam was going to take responsibility for his actions but leave everyone else out of it.

 

So of course the next scene, Liam shows up and starts complaining that Karma is not mad at Amy, and then proceeds to do everything possible to drag Amy down with him.  Apparently Liam has the morals of a five year old.  So much for me finally having some respect for the character.

 

With Amy, I at least get the feeling she feels terrible about what happened , compared to Liam, who I pretty sure feels mildly guilty and just has no ability to deal with his feelings.  (It might also have something to do with Rita being the best actress on the show.)

 

In summary f*** you Liam.

 

As for everything else this episode, it was good.  The tribes were funny, if for no other reason than it fit really well with Hester being an ultra liberal school, that wanted to teach the kids about how evil social structures can be.  Also I laughed when Amy got shot by ten Nerf guns at once.  Lastly, I felt really bad for Lauren, I know Theo has some big secret, but I just wanted her to be happy.

[beetlesoda]

I personally hope Karma doesn't forgive Amy. I think this is too much of a betrayal to just forgive her that quickly. It's not even so much about Amy sleeping with Liam, I mean yeah it was terrible, but the fact that she kept it a secret for for so long and didn't plan on telling her is even worse.

I want them to "breakup". I want Karma on her own. Amy has Reagan, Shane, Lauren, the fans, Amy can do no wrong in some people eyes but Karma is the worst to them. Let's give Karma her own chance to grow outside of Amy. Let's see how these two do apart for a while. I mean what makes these two being friends so important? I saw it in season 1 but it's lacking in season 2. Amy has a girlfriend now why does she need Karma? Amy has a sister and a new bestfriend why does she need Karma? Hope they touch on that next season

[ybrik]

I agree which is why I really feel the show wasted a lot of this season hiding the secret instead of dealing with the fall out. I also think this would be a good time to finally see Karma's POV. We rarely get a chance to see what is going on in her mind. She really doesn't have any outside party to speak to where we can get to see Karma's feelings like we can when Amy speaks with Shane or Lauren or her Mom. I do worry that the show will end the season with Amy and Karma at odds but somehow put her back with Liam which is just a bad thing for Karma.

[Milks26]

beetlesoda It would be nice to see both girls on there own. Although, they kinda, sorta was a strained from each other a little bit in season 2. They were still friends, but there was some distance in there because of Amy's confession and Karma's rejection towards her. That's closeness we saw in season 1 was damaged in season 2. In the 4th episode Oliver told Karma that she was one of his triggers for a mental relapse - it would be nice if the school play allowed them to bond.

 

ybrik  I won't be surprised if Karma forgives Liam but continues to admonish Amy (even though I think the whoa - I know scene is Karma's dream). The preview clip shows Liam making some kind of deal with his grandfather/father. maybe he has the old man bail Karma & Amy out of jail.

[Cranberry]

I split a bunch of posts off to a new thread, as they were more general and less about this episode. If you think I moved one that shouldn't have been moved, or I forgot one that should have been moved, send me a PM and let me know. Thanks!