S04.E06: Family Business

[KingOfHearts]

If the ogres already raided the palace, why was Belle so shocked they reached the roads? And why was her father so assured by their soldiers if it was a losing war? Something shady going on here.

[KAOS Agent]

Did they really think the ogres would be interested in the books? Why not leave them and come back later when the ogres had left?

[Amerilla]

Things like quality control, developmental editors, copy editors, dialog editors, continuity editors, and plain old common sense got left in Neverland and just never returned.

[Camera One]

I think the Wraith ate them all.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I think the Wraith ate them all.

 

A&E: "We had a Wraith on the show...?"

Edited November 11, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[HeimrArnadalr]

They were educated ogres. Ivy league graduates.

Like politicians, then.

[Shanna Marie]

I had to dig way back to find this thread. We don't seem to have discussed this episode much after it initially aired. And I can see why. This is the one where they must have filmed a rough draft because there are so many bizarre inconsistencies. I still crack up about how Belle talks about wanting to get her memories back, and in the same conversation she mentions that she was unconscious during these events. Honey, what you want isn't memories. No one took your memories. You were unconscious, which means you were unaware of what was going on. Getting your memories back will just mean a blank darkness. What you want is to know what happened when you were unconscious.

It's utterly galling to watch Belle groveling to Rumple and saying she doesn't deserve him when he's lying to her the whole time about the dagger. But this is such a romantic relationship!

I did like seeing Snow get to see a younger Emma. Ginny really sold that moment. And Mirror Belle speaking the truth works. Too bad regular Belle didn't listen. I also liked the scene with Hook and Emma talking in the woods. It's so odd how they're writing that developing bond really well and most of the other romantic relationships in this arc are so awful.

[daxx]

2 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

I also liked the scene with Hook and Emma talking in the woods. It's so odd how they're writing that developing bond really well and most of the other romantic relationships in this arc are so awful.

It’s weird. 

Spoiler

But they course correct in season 6 and nearly destroy this relationship, just like all the rest of them.

[Camera One]

If they wanted to build a mystery about Belle's mom, they sure chose the dumbest possible reason for it.  The last thing you remembered were ogres entering the library.  It doesn't take a Latin scholar to figure out what happened next.  Fine, they needed Belle to feel guilty, but choosing a rock over Anna?  It's like a parody of idiocy at every turn.  

I vaguely remember around the time this episode aired, they hinted we might see more of Belle's mom.  I wonder what their "plans" were.  

5 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

I had to dig way back to find this thread. 

I found it funny that it was the second last thread in the entire listing of threads.  

[Shanna Marie]

3 minutes ago, Camera One said:

If they wanted to build a mystery about Belle's mom, they sure chose the dumbest possible reason for it.  The last thing you remembered were ogres entering the library.  It doesn't take a Latin scholar to figure out what happened next. 

Yeah, that whole thing was so odd. Ogres attacked. She blacked out. She wakes up, mom is dead. Gee, I wonder what happened. There's a great mystery about what happened and why she doesn't remember it (maybe .... because she blacked out?). Then again, her dad was being shady, like he was hiding something, though I guess it could have just been what, exactly, was done to her mother. I could see him not wanting to go into details beyond the fact that she died. Belle didn't need to hear that her mother's head was ripped off and thrown across the room, or whatever. But instead of assuming it was something like that, Belle suddenly has to go on a quest to get the memories of what happened while she was unconscious restored.

It seemed like they were setting up some greater conspiracy

Spoiler

But apparently not, since this never comes up again.

I just rewatched this episode, and I can barely remember what happened in it.

[Camera One]

It would make more sense if Belle's mom disappeared when she was really young and Belle went on a journey to try to figure out what happened.  She and Anna would essentially have the same quest and can bond over that.  Was this episode trying to minimize Rumple picking the dagger over Belle because Belle picked a rock over Anna?  

36 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

It's utterly galling to watch Belle groveling to Rumple

Two episodes in a row with grovelling of victim to perpetrator.  Isn't this show the best?  It takes everything you thought you know about human decency and heroism and turns it on its head.

Edited February 2, 2019 by Camera One

[daxx]

36 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Two episodes in a row with grovelling of victim to perpetrator.  Isn't this show the best?  It takes everything you thought you know about human decency and heroism and turns it on its head.

Adam: “I’m glad you love the show and noticed that we have been subverting expectations this season. Just wait, we are really just hitting our stride with these two episodes.”

[KAOS Agent]

Ah the good old days when using the dagger to control someone was a really, really horrible thing to do.

On 11/4/2014 at 9:49 AM, Shanna Marie said:

Fortunately, him being about 200 years older than everyone else means that even if he is related -- say, if Charming's alcoholic father turned out to be a descendant of the second family Hook's father started after abandoning little Killian -- the connection would be so distant that it wouldn't really count as them being related anymore. But you know, they've brought up that age thing almost as many times as they've dropped anvils about Hook's imminent demise, so maybe they are setting up a relationship revelation.

I laughed so very hard at this comment.

[Camera One]

Why didn't Belle secure that precious rock a little better?  One little shake and it flew out.  

Even if Anna didn't fall, Ingrid would still have apparated up on the ledge to grab that precious hat box anyway.  I'm always amazed at how this show could get away with the cheesiest lines ever and they get actors who usually can make them work.  "You'll have to excuse us.  This is FAMILY BUSINESS."  LOL.  

Edited February 2, 2019 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

Mirror!Belle is still one of the most underrated characters on the show. She's supposed to be evil, but seeing the ugly in people is exactly what Belle needed in that moment. Why is it always the "bad characters" that drop the truth bombs? That seemed to happen a lot, specifically in S4.

Edited February 2, 2019 by KingOfHearts

[andromeda331]

3 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

Mirror!Belle is still one of the most underrated characters on the show. She's supposed to be evil, but seeing the ugly in people is exactly what Belle needed in that moment. Why is it always the "bad characters" that drop the truth bombs? That seemed to happen a lot, specifically in S4.

She was the best! But only on this show when Mirror Belle tells Belle the truth is it ignored. Belle ends up still having zero doubts about Rumple. Other shows she'd keep that in the back of her mind, wonder, or look into it just to make sure she's right. To prove it to herself. Nope, none of that.

[Camera One]

Why didn't Belle just bribe people in the palace who were around when she was blacked out to find out what happened to her mother?  Didn't she have any friends?  You'd think she would since she has such a winning personality.

I wonder if the actor playing Maurice was asked to act extra shady, with the sole purpose of making this plot work.  He probably thought he might get to come back to continue telling the story.  They've always portrayed the character in quite a negative light the entire series, anyway.

I can buy that Maurice just didn't want Belle to find out the gory details of what happened.  We know that the Ogres were a legitimate danger, and it's not like Maurice would have any reason to want the Ogres to destroy their residence to get his wife killed (though it IS this show, so who knows).  

The worst part of this episode is the retcon that Belle knew how nasty Rumple was from Anna and still fell in love with them.  Ick!  Let the Character Assassination Games begin!

Edited February 2, 2019 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

28 minutes ago, Camera One said:

The worst part of this episode is the retcon that Belle knew how nasty Rumple was from Anna and still fell in love with them.  Ick!  Let the Character Assassination Games begin!

I don't know, it's hard to assassinate Belle's character much further than they already had, given that she fell in love with Rumple after he kept her in a dungeon and after she knew he was repeatedly flaying a man alive (but he stopped short of killing him and eventually let him go, so he obviously had a good heart). Then she continued in a relationship with him after learning he not only didn't get better after she left him, but went on to engineer a curse that destroyed their civilization, and after learning murdered his first wife and after she watched him beat a man nearly to death. She continued in love with him and married him after she saw just how awful he became when she wasn't holding his leash. So, adding that she knew the Dark One was actually dark before she went to him doesn't change that much.

Spoiler

But I guess they do actually manage to assassinate her character further with all that happens in the upcoming seasons.

 

14 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

On 11/4/2014 at 10:49 AM, Shanna Marie said:

But you know, they've brought up that age thing almost as many times as they've dropped anvils about Hook's imminent demise, so maybe they are setting up a relationship revelation.

I laughed so very hard at this comment.

I'd forgotten about that! But I did remember feeling like they were going somewhere with a mention of Hook being a survivor in every episode and with Emma's fears about losing him. The guy practically had a target on his back.

Spoiler

I guess they did go somewhere with it, but were they pointing to his near-death in the 4A finale -- which was barely mentioned or reacted to -- to his AU death in the season 4 finale -- which did get some reaction, at least -- or to his temporary death in season 5? And it would have been so much better if David had turned out to be the great, great, great, grandson of Hook's half-brother from his father's second family than the nonsense we got about Hook killing David's father. Oh, and I guess I called the second family, while I was at it. I need to reread some of these threads to see what else I might have said!

[Camera One]

5 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

I don't know, it's hard to assassinate Belle's character much further than they already had, given that she fell in love with Rumple after he kept her in a dungeon and after she knew he was repeatedly flaying a man alive (but he stopped short of killing him and eventually let him go, so he obviously had a good heart). Then she continued in a relationship with him after learning he not only didn't get better after she left him, but went on to engineer a curse that destroyed their civilization, and after learning murdered his first wife and after she watched him beat a man nearly to death. She continued in love with him and married him after she saw just how awful he became when she wasn't holding his leash. So, adding that she knew the Dark One was actually dark before she went to him doesn't change that much.

 

LOL, when you put it like that, it's hard to see how anyone could find the couple romantic.

I still think this retcon was significant since previously, Belle would not know anything about Rumple and she might dismiss some of it as heresay.  Yes, he initially threw into the dungeon but with less specific foreknowledge, you could sort of see how she might think the society at large who didn't get up close and personal with Rumple might see him as worse than he really was.

Now that we know she heard a specific account from a clearly good person like Anna who gave her a dire warning, her initial impression of Rumple should have started much lower and it should have been more resistant to change.

Did she start falling for Rumple before the flaying-Robin-Hood incident?  At that point, I think she started feeling that she had a positive influence on Rumple and maybe she thought she could "save" him.  

The whole enacting the Curse could be rationalized because Rumple desperately wanted to reunite with his son, which was evidence that there was still love in his heart.

This message was brought to you by the Rumple's Pure Heart Defence Foundation™.  You can find more information at www.RumpleIsGoodInside.com.

[superloislane]

17 hours ago, Camera One said:

I vaguely remember around the time this episode aired, they hinted we might see more of Belle's mom.  I wonder what their "plans" were.  

They hired a semi-well known actress, Frances O'Connor to play her mother who I believe gave an interview saying we were going to see her again later in the season. That suggests they yet again changed their minds about something they set up. Something like this happens again:

Spoiler

Later in season 4 when they hired Sebastian Roche, a very well known face in sci-fi/fantasy shows to play King Stefan for literally 10 seconds of screentime. And that's a big character in the Sleeping Beauty story they set up - it looked like they were going to do more there but of course they dropped it.

[Camera One]

This show is so messed up.  I just watched the scene where Belle apologized to Rumple and he said, "I know you would never wrong me."  

Are we supposed to interpret what Mirror Belle said as a truth bomb, or an evil spell?  Because all of it was completely true, just stuff she never admitted to herself consciously. 

Yet later, we get Rumple's tortured puppy dog tears again.  Were we supposed to believe he felt so pained to have to lie to Belle?  

[KingOfHearts]

4 hours ago, Camera One said:

Are we supposed to interpret what Mirror Belle said as a truth bomb, or an evil spell?  Because all of it was completely true, just stuff she never admitted to herself consciously. 

I don't even know what the show was trying to do there. Mirror Belle is supposed to be "evil" because Rumpbelle is OTP, but they make it obvious that Rumple is still deceiving her. Perhaps it's another lame attempt for "grayness"? (If you could even call it that.)

On 2/2/2019 at 3:57 PM, superloislane said:

They hired a semi-well known actress, Frances O'Connor to play her mother who I believe gave an interview saying we were going to see her again later in the season. That suggests they yet again changed their minds about something they set up.

I think Belle's dad was meant to be shifty here so A&E could pull out a conspiracy plot in case they ever wanted to revisit Belle's mom. However, they left is ambiguous enough to where if it were never brought up again, you could say he was just trying to prevent his daughter from being traumatized. Maurice only seems to be a decent guy or a bad guy depending on the needs of the plot.

Edited February 4, 2019 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

I just noticed that Belle's mother tells the palace soldiers that she would look for Belle and that they should take the trunk of books out of there, but Belle's mother keeps grabbing books off the shelves and doesn't move from the spot.  She just yells for Belle.  I guess Belle inherited choosing inanimate objects over people from her mother.

I was reading the comments from the video clip and a lot of people commented that Belle's mom looked like Cora.  Maybe Belle's mother was Cora's sister, who married up, so Cora was jealous?  Maybe Maurice knew but Cora forced him to keep quiet about Belle's mom.  I mean, we can never get enough of Mills family history.  

I forgot this was the first episode we got to see the horrid "Her Handsome Hero" book.  

Edited February 4, 2019 by Camera One

[tennisgurl]

That was a super weird backstory for Belle and her mother, it felt so halfway finished. Like they had bigger plans for Belle and her mom and some kind of mystery about her death, and they just gave up on it halfway through. I mean, thats the big mystery? Belle passed out when ogres arrived, and she wakes up to her mom being dead. Gee, whatever could have happened to her that lead to her being dead? And she really couldn't have found anyone in the whole palace who could have told her what was up? Really? 

The royal family of Arendale really love to overreact, dont they? And to jump into other peoples random stories!

The joke from Hook about how everyone in Storeybrooke is related was funny, especially because its so true that its embarrassing, and becomes increasingly so as the series goes on. Really, the episode has a lot of decent lines and some fun character bits, but its mostly drowned out by the plot, which goes from lame to insulting. Especially with Rumple and Belle. Yeah, just after we watched Emma groveling for the forgiveness for nothing of the woman who ruined her life, we get to watch Belle begging her abusive husband, who we know is lying and manipulating everyone around him, including her, for increasingly nonsensical reasons, for forgiveness for something she didnt even do. Oh this show, so much hope it brings! Hope that we may one day find a better show, or these actors may find better uses of their talents? 

Mirror Belle is pretty awesome, and Emilie is clearly having a blast really letting lose. I miss her already.