S06.E11: Appointment in Samarra

[gonzosgirrl]

On 4/28/2018 at 12:10 PM, Iju said:

yes but it wasn't as if he had to shoot her in the head. it wasn't as if he had to kill a healthy, living child in order for sam to live, he was just gathering her soul. as i said before i understand dean's feelings for helping other people and especially with family, but he understood the job when he put on that ring. he knew it would be hard. i'm not blaming him or mad at him, i just thought he would rebel for a different reason.  for something that wouldn't make me complain would be if tessa lead him to a school bus, and told him that everyone died on it in a drunken car accident. for myself, i would have taken the sick girl's soul, but i don't think i would stomach taking an entire school bus. but as i said that's just me.

i was slightly surprised and gently appreciated dean's speedy and literal face to face with death for some sort of deal with It, which is why him falling flat on his face so soon disappointed me, and death giving sam his soul anyway made me feel cheated of my time watching the entire episode. it just doesn't feel satisfactory for me.

Dean felt empathy for the sick girl's father and for the child. He didn't know the nurse would then die as result - that the was lesson, and the point of the episode. To teach Dean the necessity of the natural order. And as Dean said - and Death didn't disagree - he was set up to fail. There were no good choices and Death, being Death, set Dean up with the power to spare a sick child - something anyone with Dean's compassion and history would find difficult, if not impossible, to resist. You have to look at Dean with the harshest of goggles to judge him harshly for that. IMO of course.

There was also the larger point - to emphasize the importance and value of human souls. As Death said, (paraphrased) you'll know when you need to know. Heh.

This episode also showed the true extent of Soulless Sam's disconnect from his humanity. He was really, willing, able and intent upon killing Bobby in order to remain soulless forever. Did you miss that part? The moments after Dean literally stops Sam from murdering Bobby are so important. They talk about how he (Sam) is capable of anything, which he just demonstrated in no uncertain terms. Dean knows this now, and by losing his bet with Death, he lost what he felt was his only chance to get Sam's soul back. I fully believe we were meant to understand that if Death hadn't given Sam back his soul 'anyway', Dean was prepared to kill him. He was devastated.

To each their own, but I honestly can't see how anyone could feel this episode was a waste of time.

Edited April 30, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[DittyDotDot]

On 4/26/2018 at 2:56 PM, Iju said:

so...eh. they should have just stuck with dean keeping the ring on to get sam's soul back imo. i'm glad that sam's soul is back

Dean wore the ring, but he wasn't actually Death so I don't think he could've gotten Sam's soul back even with the ring on. And, remember Death hadn't been wearing the ring for over a year now, so not sure what the ring actually does for Death... .

[Katy M]

26 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Dean wore the ring, but he wasn't actually Death so I don't think he could've gotten Sam's soul back even with the ring on. And, remember Death hadn't been wearing the ring for over a year now, so not sure what the ring actually does for Death... .

I think  @Iju meant that Dean should have just worn the ring and won the bet. Not that he should have worn the ring and crashed the cage.  But, how dare you suggest there is something Dean can't do!  Blasphemy:)

[DittyDotDot]

16 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I think  @Iju meant that Dean should have just worn the ring and won the bet. Not that he should have worn the ring and crashed the cage.  

Really? I mean, Dean lost the bet, but still won the money, so there wouldn't have been anything changed if he'd actually won the bet.. I assumed he was saying the episode should've been a two-parter and after Dean lost the bet, he kept the ring and decided to just go get Sam's soul out of the cage himself. But, that's what you get for assuming.

18 minutes ago, Katy M said:

But, how dare you suggest there is something Dean can't do!  Blasphemy:)

Yeah, I know.... . ;)

[Iju]

On 04/05/2018 at 1:13 PM, DittyDotDot said:

Dean wore the ring, but he wasn't actually Death so I don't think he could've gotten Sam's soul back even with the ring on. And, remember Death hadn't been wearing the ring for over a year now, so not sure what the ring actually does for Death... .

 

On 04/05/2018 at 1:42 PM, Katy M said:

I think  @Iju meant that Dean should have just worn the ring and won the bet. Not that he should have worn the ring and crashed the cage.  But, how dare you suggest there is something Dean can't do!  Blasphemy:)

yes DittyDot, Katy explained what i meant. that's all^^

[gonzosgirrl]

7 hours ago, Iju said:

 

yes DittyDot, Katy explained what i meant. that's all^^

I'm still trying to figure out how one watches this episode and skips right over the part where Sam was not just willing to kill Bobby, but actually had the blade raised when Dean stopped him. And then still finds a way to make Dean the bad guy/failure because of how he handled being Death with a whole hour or two's experience under his belt. LOL.

[Pondlass1]

I don't usually read this thread... probably it's best that I don't.  Because I agree with @gonzosgirrl. I don't know how anyone could watch this harrowing episode and find it a waste of time.    But we all see things differently I guess.  

 

If only recent episodes could deliver this level of emotional clout. Sigh.

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, Pondlass1 said:

I don't usually read this thread... probably it's best that I don't.  Because I agree with @gonzosgirrl. I don't know how anyone could watch this harrowing episode and find it a waste of time.    But we all see things differently I guess.  

 

If only recent episodes could deliver this level of emotional clout. Sigh.

Yes, this episode is definitely in the top 10 or 20.  Sam is just terrifyingly terrifying.  Dean is so broken up about not being able to actually save the girl, getting the nurse killed, and failing in his bet.  It's heartbreaking.  And Bobby's got some good lines in there.  "Nobody's killing me in my house except for me.

[The Companion]

On 11/30/2014 at 3:17 PM, DittyDotDot said:

Third, I'm not sure I understand the purpose of the rings. So, Dean wears the ring in order to be Death for a day then gives the ring back to Death so he can do the job, but nobody has been wearing the ring for a year and a half? What's Death been doing all this time? Does Death even need the ring to be Death? Okay, maybe this one is somewhat important to the workings of this universe, but it doesn't really bother me all that much not knowing the answer either.

So, not perfect, but pretty damn good, IMO.

I am trying to piece this together and I think that the answer is that small scale deaths can be and are delegated to the reapers. The reason I think that is Death Takes a Holiday, where the loss of the reaper meant deaths were suspended. If a two part process like in this episode was happening, people would die but not be reaped and you would just have ghosts hanging around. We also saw reapers there at the moment of death in Faith and In My Time of Dying. When we meet Death, he is about to undertake a large mass casualty event. I think he largely handles the master plan, maybe shows up onsite for big ticket items and sometimes picks up a few deaths while taking a stroll. And I think that is consistent with pestilence, who certainly didn't cause all disease and famine who exacerbate but did not cause all overindulgence and addiction. 

I suspect Death wouldn't have handled any of those deaths on a random Thursday. They were handpicked to escalate until Dean screwed up the natural order. 

On 2/1/2017 at 8:35 AM, DittyDotDot said:

I think Soulless Sam was his own person; a very dangerous person and a sociopath. I don't really think of it as Dean getting Sam's soul back simply because he wasn't the Sam he wants him to be, but Soulless Sam was a danger to everyone around him. Soulless Sam couldn't be contained, so the only other option was to kill him. It was a big chance Dean was taking, but it's not like the other option was any better.

Not to reopen an old debate but I agree with this take. Soulless Sam is willing to do whatever it takes to reach the goal on front of them and that makes him dangerous to everyone including the people who love him 

I loved this episode. I think it is likely that the bet was never real. Death had a point to make about the natural order and about souls. I suspect it will fit in with something down the road. He didn't need the ring. He always intended to bring back the soul. But he needed Dean's attention.

I love Tessa and Death. The episode was well paced and tense. The only ridiculous thing was how Bobby was acting like some idiot in a horror movie. He escaped outside? Lock yourself in somewhere or get in the damn car and GTFO. Don't follow the obvious blood trail. 🙄

[Katy M]

7 hours ago, The Companion said:

The only ridiculous thing was how Bobby was acting like some idiot in a horror movie. He escaped outside? Lock yourself in somewhere or get in the damn car and GTFO.

But, Bobby isn't a teenage girl.  He's a hunter.  His job is not to run away.  And, I don't remember their exact conversation, but I don't think Sam told him that the spell called for the "blood of his father." For all Bobby knew Sam could sacrifice anyone.  Or maybe everyone within a 5 mile radius. Therefore, he had to stop him to make sure he didn't hurt anybody. I thought it was stupid of him to open the door to the basement just because Sam didn't answer him, but that didn't actually hurt anything.

And while I agree in general about driving off, locking yourself in someplace never seems to work out well in horror movies.

[The Companion]

1 minute ago, Katy M said:

But, Bobby isn't a teenage girl.  He's a hunter.  His job is not to run away.  And, I don't remember their exact conversation, but I don't think Sam told him that the spell called for the "blood of his father." For all Bobby knew Sam could sacrifice anyone.  Or maybe everyone within a 5 mile radius. Therefore, he had to stop him to make sure he didn't hurt anybody. I thought it was stupid of him to open the door to the basement just because Sam didn't answer him, but that didn't actually hurt anything.

And while I agree in general about driving off, locking yourself in someplace never seems to work out well in horror movies.

Okay so now that you mention it maybe he didn't know he was the sole.target and that does make it better. My thinking was: you know Sam is supposed to get his soul back within 24 hours and then there will be no more homicidal tendencies. But you raise a good point about risk to others. He knew it was for a spell but not the patricide requirement.

Speaking of the patricide requirement, what are the chances Balthazar was just trying to see if he could get Sam to do it to gauge his efficacy for a future favor? Maybe I am too cynical

[MagnusHex]

I'm pretty sure Balthazar was just fucking with Sam. That whole "kill your father, even if it's not really your father" deal seemed kinda arbitrary.

Always good to see Robert Englund in anything. He's such a fun, lovable actor that I would watch almost anything with him.

So this was a fun one. It's nice seeing Julian Richings as Death (after his epic appearance in season 5 that amped up the stakes of the show) and Lindsey McKeon as Tessa again (probably the last remaining recurring female character that isn't evil or dead... so to speak), and I like the idea of Dean playing Reaper for a day. I tend to enjoy it when episodes like this go for a high-concept plot like this, and I like that they didn't waste the creative potential of the concept by letting us see the different kinds of deaths a Reaper might go through in a day, and what happens if you let someone live (the answer seems less Final Destination-ey and more Dark Pictures Anthology-ish). More importantly, I always tend to enjoy the expansion of the lore on this show, whether it's the angels or the Four Horsemen, and this particular addition to the lore of Death didn't disappoint. I like the idea that death has a balance to the natural order of things, even the death of an innocent little girl. It's grim, but there's a realistic neutrality to it.

And nice! Sam's soul is back! And from the looks of the next episode promo, there aren't really any long-lasting consequences to it like they've all been worried about, at least temporarily. I'll take that if it means we can put an end to the Soulless Sam arc and get back to normal, especially if the alternative would've meant another angst-filled saga with the Emochesters trying to fix Ensouled Sam only to have it resolved at the very last episode of the season, which seems to be the show's formula anyway so I'm not holding my breath that it wouldn't happen.

That said, Sam immediately deciding to kill Bobby just didn't seem to be very logical or pragmatic (Dean would pretty much be on his tail hunting him like all the monsters they've hunted before), and that pragmatism (or at least the potential for being pragmatic without being too heartless and losing the audience) was the only thing that made Soulless Sam remotely appealing in the first place. But I guess it was an eventuality, because that's how stories like this usually go: the emotionless sociopath eventually takes things one step too far and the good guys have to stop him. I would've liked to see Sam get a little more action as a competent hunter (since that's the only remotely good thing going for the character in a long while), but oh well.

Five bucks says that the thing Death wants Sam and Dean to find have something to do with this season 7 Leviathan I keep reading about.

3/5

[FlickChick]

I don't know if you already know this, but I read that Sera planned on having Soulless Sam for the entire season only to reveal in the finale why Sam was acting that way all season long. I believe that Kripke stepped in to change it to a half-season reveal and resouling. Of course Sera is a Samgirl, so she wanted almost everything to revolve around his character.

[MagnusHex]

1 hour ago, FlickChick said:

I don't know if you already know this, but I read that Sera planned on having Soulless Sam for the entire season only to reveal in the finale why Sam was acting that way all season long. I believe that Kripke stepped in to change it to a half-season reveal and resouling. Of course Sera is a Samgirl, so she wanted almost everything to revolve around his character.

Hah, that actually makes me willing to put up with Sam's antics just to see Sera's take on the character down the road now. I do remember reading that season 6's arcs were meant to last five seasons or so, but were condensed to one, so it makes sense why we had a revolving door of plots going around so fast. Like I mentioned before, I like Sera's ideas for the show as it felt like a breath of fresh air that it needed to shake up the formula, even if I might not always made it seem like I enjoy those ideas. I wouldn't mind seeing what Sera had originally planned for Sam.

[Katy M]

On 4/18/2023 at 9:27 AM, MagnusHex said:

I'm pretty sure Balthazar was just fucking with Sam. That whole "kill your father, even if it's not really your father" deal seemed kinda arbitrary.

A lot of things on this show seem kind of arbitrary. 

Spoiler

Like when they needed the blood of the ruler of hell, or whatever.  Crowley wasn't born or made into that position.  Why would his blood be any different than any other demon's?

 

[Pondlass1]

The issue with this and most other TV series is that the writer for any weekly episode probably possesses only a passing knowledge of previous plots and running storylines.  They might know the whims of the characters, but not much history.  They might hardly ever actually watch.  
This is where the show runner earns his/her salary because he/she  is pulling it all together (supposedly).  Also the show runner has a passion for the product (supposedly).

When Dean (or it might’ve been Sam) said he would love to see the Grand Canyon, fan message boards lit up like a Christmas tree because in a previous episode the brothers talked about a trip down the Canyon with crazy dad John.

My theory is that they need a rabid fan on set as consultant.
 

[CluelessDrifter]

30 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

 

My theory is that they need a rabid fan on set as consultant.
 

Or at least a show bible

[ahrtee]

49 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

When Dean (or it might’ve been Sam) said he would love to see the Grand Canyon, fan message boards lit up like a Christmas tree because in a previous episode the brothers talked about a trip down the Canyon with crazy dad John.

My theory is that they need a rabid fan on set as consultant.
 

There are enough rabid fans on here, and we love to point out that Dean saying he'd never seen the Grand Canyon was back in season 2 (2.09, Croatoan) and Sam's story about going down the canyon on a farty donkey was in season 8! 😀 (BTW, that one was written by Ben Edlund, who *was* a fan, and admitted that he made a mistake.)

SuperWiki is the best show bible and available to all, if the writers only look at it. 

But yes, a good showrunner should keep track, unless they're bound and determined to rewrite the whole story. *sigh*