S02.E05: The Weeping Lady

[Dobian]

I would go with Ichababbie instead of Ichabbie.  It rolls off the toungue better.  ICKABABBY!!

[ABay]

Is anyone familiar with La Llarona? I'd only vaguely heard about it before Grimm used the story for an episode last season. I'm not sure if drowning is essential to the story or not?

[phoenics]

I don't know why it matters if the characters are leads or not.  There have been interracial couples on tv is all.  Boy Meets World had an interracial teen couple.  My Cousin Earl, Community...I'm not going to look them all up.  I don't see how a romance between Ichabod and Abbie adds anything.  Whevener writers put two characters who have been friends into a relationship, they inevitably wreck it.  The reason is because all the excitement and drama is in the build-up, the tease of "will they or won't they".  But as soon as they consumate, it becomes dull and boring, so the writers decide to shake it up again by breaking them up.  Standard soap opera trope that gets used to death in serialized tv shows.  But it ends up ruining the original dynamic between the characters so it's never the same again.

 

I'm not sure you read my post.  I was extremely careful to point out that I meant a tv show DRAMA - which is in a completely different league than comedies - which have their own sets of tropes - but the barriers have kinda been broken there.

 

And it absolutely matters whether they are lead characters or not.  It ABSOLUTELY matters!

 

But my question is - for the couples (2 in 40+ years - whoopee) you mentioned - did we see the build up of the romance from start to finish?  Was it presented in a romanticized fashion with sweeping music and all of the bells and whistles that white OTP couplings get?  

 

Nope?

 

Then that's not even close to my point.

 

Again I submit - Sleepy Hollow isn't the show to play out the "keep the m/f apart!" thing - for reasons I already stated.

The problem is not simply hooking a couple up, it's when the writers tend to hook the couple up. Shows tend to drag the will they/wont they trope for seasons if possible, only because in their mind they want to tease the viewers to keep ratings high. What inevitable happens is that as the show ages, ratings start to decline. The writers then finally will pull the trigger and hook the couple up, as a last minute way to boost ratings.

 

By that time the couple officially gets together, the show has significantly declined in story ideas and quality, the actors are tired of it and the ratings are already much lower than what the show or network want. A romance done right will not ruin the show. Note - if it is done right.

 

SH though, is unfortunately doing too much of this ship teasing for my taste, only because I would love to see Ichabbie happen and will be thoroughly pissed if it doesn't - and sooner than later. I have no patience at all, what can I say. I want some payoffs soon, not just platitudes to keep me hooked.

 

All of this Mrs. Crane stuff, the amazing hugs, the eye-banging, the 'wedding vows' that Crane always sounds like he's saying to Abbie, the declaration that it is only them, the fact that they seem to love being in each others company and in my view, they have been positive influences on each others lives. They make each other better people and that is a good relationship to have. It's very complimentary, Yin and Yang.

 

I have never shipped couples ever. Didn't even know what the slang meant until recently. I used to watch Castle and thought it would be good if Castle and Beckett got together, but whatever. As long as the characters keep me interested. Ichabod and Abbie, though? The last minutes of the Pilot episode, when they standing on the street, looking at each other with these little smiles, boom! I was in, I was hooked and I shipped. Hard.

 

Credit goes to Beharie and Mison who I would call Actor Soul Mates. Most couples on TV who are romantically together don't have a smidge of the chemistry that these two do - and they are solely platonic characters now. However, its not a hard stretch to imagine things becoming more romantic between the characters. Being - and enjoying - each others company all of the time, being attractive people, having a supernatural bond as Witnesses - why wouldn't something more happen? I'm always surprised and confused when people say they want them to remain friends. Why? Why waste that amazing explosive chemistry?

 

There is a difference between throwing two pretty people together just for the sake of ratings and for something to write about. But Ichabbie is different, at least for me. Again, something about the chemistry between the actors and the overall growing bond and relationship between the two. It just seems like a natural progression. But again, I'm impatient. Sooner than later, show. Bring on the Ichabbie goodness. Or stop ship-teasing me unless you really mean it!!

 

I couldn't agree more.  When you have something like a bond like the Witness bond where you might get to have this cosmic connection - why NOT explore that in all of its facets?  Not having that turn romantic at some point feels like such a cheat.  And a cop out.

Edited October 25, 2014 by phoenics

[formerlyfreedom]

Folks, we're drifting off the subject here; this is to discuss the episode The Weeping Lady. If you want to have further discussion on the RELATIONSHIPS on the show, please head over to the The Relationships of Sleepy Hollow. If you want to delve into the conversation of race and ethnicity of television, here is where you can find that topic.

 

Thank you!

[savinggrace]

I forgot to mention, another aspect I like about Hawley is that he actually acts like I would expect someone to when they encounter some dude dressed in Revolutionary garb talking like he's from another century. Hawley's WTF and perenially bemused looks whenever Crane spoke were priceless and seem to be missing from Crane's interactions with other people in the town. When Abbie and Crane went to the school to interview the lovers lane teens, I expected to see some snickering/pointing/bewilderment from the kids in the gym. Everyone just acted like it's normal to have some dude stroll into their school dressed like that. I realize it would get old to do that every single time Crane interacts with a new townsperson but there should be more acknowledgement from time to time that Crane is weird.

Edited October 25, 2014 by savinggrace

[BlueJay81]

I think Henry may try to take over from Moloch at some point if the situation presents its self or at least prevent Moloch from 'rising'.

 

I also don't see the need for Hawley when he does the same thing that Jenny does and his inclusion seems to be at Jenny's expense since she gets less screen time. Would like to see more of the Abby-Jenny relationship but without some contrived love interest, they have enough drama between them without that.

 

Enjoyed last season more because it moved faster plot wise, there are too many filler episodes this season. Did like how the teen couple hauled ass out of there without trying to 'investigate' anything and getting themselves killed.

Edited October 25, 2014 by BlueJay81

[savinggrace]

I also don't see the need for Hawley when he does the same thing that Jenny does and his inclusion seems to be at Jenny's expense since she gets less screen time.

 

 

I've seen several people say this and I have to disagree, Jenny's knowledge seems to extend to whatever artifacts Corbin made her fetch and whatever details he gave her about them. Hawley seems to be much more knowledgeble not just on antiquities but general history and folklore which means he's able to  be more useful and counter Crane whenever Crane goes on one of his historical rants.That Jenny referred Abby and Crane to Hawley hints that he has much more knowedge than she does. I'd even give him a slight edge over Crane since his knowledge had to come from extensive research and study while Crane's knowledge seems largely due to his first-hand acquantainces and his photographic memory. Also consider that with his time-leap fowad, Crane has a 200 year knowlege-gap unless he's hit the books for a quick history lesson on what happenend in the World since he "died" 2 centuries ago.

 

The show does desperately need some humor to balance all the seriousneess. If Hawley can continue to introduce some humor and annoy Crane then I hope he sticks around.

Edited October 26, 2014 by savinggrace

[marceline]

I don't have big problems with Hawley but I do think he was introduced too fast, too hard and at the expense of other characters. He feels like a character we should've seen popping up a couple of times in S1. I feel like they are trying to anchor him to the ensemble as quickly as possible in order to justify some future story.

 

As for Abbie and Crane, sigh... This is why I hate shipping. We are 18 episodes into this show. We're still at the point where we would just be teeing up the end of the first season. Putting Abbie and Crane together would be cheap, lazy fanfic straight out of the CW, regardless of Abbie's race. As for the idea that the writers don't value Abbie, well, there's no real-world basis for that. This is her show. This struggle is Abbie's struggle. Her struggle to come to terms with her destiny and to make sense of her past. She's every bit as important as Crane and the fact that they haven't turned her into Crane's love interest actually proves that. If the only way Abbie can be considered valuable is as Lois Lane to Crane's Superman then all the good this show has done by making her tough and layered and complex was a waste. Even if a coupling is in the future, the idea that it should be now is very shortsighted. Every show where the leads got together: House, Bones, Castle, X-Files (all shows I quit watching once they gave into shipping) waited many, many seasons in before going there. In fact, IMO hooking up the leads tends to be the sign that the writers are running out of steam. I want this show to go on for a nice long time. In fact I'm adopting Community's cry of "SIX SEASONS AND A MOVIE!"

 

We're still learning who these characters are as individuals. I think we can go at least another season or two before the show turns into Grey's Anatomy.

Edited October 27, 2014 by marceline

[phoenics]

Katrina is not going to send off stuff that would prove that she's just there to spy on Abraham and Jeremy. They'd stick her in the binding ritual as soon as they found the note. Instead, that was a trial run. If it gets through, Katrina knows that method works and that she can send notes with actual, incriminating intelligence. However, if a jealous Abraham(and/or a smug Henry) comes in clutching the note, she knows that method failed and says something like "Oh, Abraham/Jeremy, darling, I'm sorry. It was a moment of weakness. I feel so lonely here, so isolated. I never knew where you or Jeremy are and it feels me with uncertainty. I just wish you would trust me more, confide in me, so that we can build a real relationship based on trust. Like the one I hav-, had, with Ichabod/your father..."

That's giving the woman who was in Purgatory with Moloch for 200+ years (and couldn't deliver a scrap of intel about Moloch other than what happened BEFORE she got there) a LOT of credit.

[Fosca]

I really think, what with Henry talking about "breaking the bond" between Ichabod and Katrina, that she somehow enchanted him once she found out he was a Witness, so that she could either direct or perhaps prevent his stopping Armageddon.  If Henry can break the bond, I can see her going evil since she'd have no need to stay good.  I also think Abraham has no idea about this, which is why he still thinks she'll love him.  Moloch is running this, and who knows what they have planned.  I also think Henry has his own plan, which is less Armageddon and more revenge against his parents abandoning him.

[Carrie Ann]

As for Abbie and Crane, sigh... This is why I hate shipping. We are 18 episodes into this show. We're still at the point where we would just be teeing up the end of the first season. Putting Abbie and Crane together would be cheap, lazy fanfic straight out of the CW, regardless of Abbie's race. As for the idea that the writers don't value Abbie, well, there's no real-world basis for that. This is her show. This struggle is Abbie's struggle. Her struggle to come to terms with her destiny and to make sense of her past. She's every bit as important as Crane and the fact that they haven't turned her into Crane's love interest actually proves that. If the only way Abbie can be considered valuable is as Lois Lane to Crane's Superman then all the good this show has done by making her tough and layered and complex was a waste. Even if a coupling is in the future, the idea that it should be now is very shortsighted. Every show where the leads got together: House, Bones, Castle, X-Files (all shows I quit watching once they gave into shipping) waited many, many seasons in before going there. In fact, IMO hooking up the leads tends to be the sign that the writers are running out of steam. I want this show to go on for a nice long time. In fact I'm adopting Community's cry of "SIX SEASONS AND A MOVIE!"

 

We're still learning who these characters are as individuals. I think we can go at least another season or two before the show turns into Grey's Anatomy.

 

Replying in the Relationships thread.

[TheHappinessHotel]

You know - I totally get it that some people don't see Ichabbie and don't want it. That's fine.

But - race actually does matter here. It's LONG been a very tired, stereotypical and typical trope that if a black woman is involved in a tv drama and in any way close to a white male - she's never considered as a potential love interest. Ever. If she has a lovelife, it's shown offscreen - or the character is treated as though her personal life doesn't exist - the character only seems to have any importance if it impacts another white character.

Thus - the concept of being tired of them pairing the male/female leads together? Well - yeah we've seen that ad nauseum, but the ONLY time we've ever seen a black female character actually shown having a full life on a tv drama is on a Shonda Rhimes produced show. And that's just been in the last 2 years.

That's it.

As a woman of color - I'm tired of that. I'm tired of expecting that the black female characters will get the short end of the stick. It's borderline insulting to see the Abbie character not able to explore romance - with the lead or anyone else - and her reduced by some fans into this "independent woman who doesn't need or have time for a man" <--- that is SUCH a negative and dangerous stereotype.

So, I guess what I'm trying to say is that I get the overall frustration with pairing up the male/female leads of a show - but given the long and frankly racist history of dealing with black or woc characters on tv dramas and their personal and romantic lives being pretty much erased (unless Shonda Rhimes is involved), then might I humbly suggest that maybe - since Sleepy Hollow has such a diverse cast - MAYBE Sleepy Hollow isn't the right show to go down the "keep the leads apart and only show the romantic life and times of the white characters and leave the black woman character nearly asexual?"

It's not the right show to resolve THAT trope (male/female leads always hooking up) because in order to resolve that trope, you fall into several other damaging and negative tropes for the WOC on the show. Aren't there countless other shows where we can explore having two male/female leads who never get together? Why does it have to be THIS SHOW?

Intersectionality matters.

I don't want to have to fret and worry that a show will shaft WOC characters repeatedly because Shonda Rhimes isn't involved, lol.

JMHO.

I see you quoted me, but I do so hope you know I was not implying anything else with my post.  I just feel like the show would take on a whole other feel if they leads paired up.  You then add a whole romantic element to this show which it does not need.  I am so sick of having epic love stories shoved down my throat.  For once, I love their friendship and want it to remain that way.  It has absolutely nothing to do with race for me.

 

I want to add that I would love for Abbie to have a love interest.  I had really high hopes for Hawley and still kind of do (although the Jenny thing irks me a bit).  I just saw so much more chemistry between Abbie and Hawley vs Abbie and Ichabod.