Crowley: I Torture All My Friends

[SueB]

Crowley/Malibu Barbie -- this may be my OTP

 

And YES Cas as Dudley Do-Right.  SOMEONE PLEASE MAKE THAT JOKE ON THE SHOW!

[mertensia]

I never watched Buffy so these comparisons are meaningless to me I'm afraid.

[AwesomO4000]

Sorry mertensia, this partially happened way upthread anyway (where someone wondered if Crowley would end up helping the good guys like Spike did) and then came back as we were discussing Crowley's loyalty. The basic idea of my comparison is that Spike (who was a soulless vampire, which in Buffyverse = demon) was immoral and sometimes evil, but usually had one "person" he would do just about anything for, even sacrifice himself and/or go against his nature for.** Whereas so far with Crowley, I don't think we've seen that level of loyalty yet, in my opinion, while others above somewhat disagreed. I agree with you that Crowley's survival instinct is too great for that... At least from what we've seen so far.

 

However, Crowley - unlike Spike - would be much more likely to keep his word in a deal (such as it is) than Spike would... who wouldn't give a crap about double-crossing anyone who wasn't the person(s) he was loyal to, especially if it meant his survival. But that one person (or two) Spike was loyal to... he would sacrifice for, generally without much thought for himself.

 

** Amusingly the Spike / Buffy partnership is actually very Sam / Dean-like when it comes to a "plan" with Spike in the Sam role and generally asking some version of the "So the plan is to pretty much go in guns blazing?" with Buffy saying "Yup" and Spike shrugging and saying "Right then" and following in as back up.

Edited July 8, 2015 by AwesomO4000

[catrox14]

The only thing Crowley does is honor agreements.  BUT he always makes sure his agreements leave him with some kind of benefit even if it's a lesser benefit to himself than the other parties to the agreement.

 

I think that's why he's going to go batshit crazy on Dean once the Darkness goes away. Dean broke the promise to give him back the First Blade.  Dean LIED to Crowley and that is something Crowley can't abide. And now that Crowley has his mojo back, look out. 

Edited July 7, 2015 by catrox14

[Omegamom]

He had half a season to go nutso over the lie about Cain having his name on the kill list. Nothing, nada, zilch, zip. I think Rowena's right, the boys and Cas are about the only people in the world he would call "friends". Or "frenemies", perhaps. They can do shit with him or to him that he doesn't tolerate from anyone, including his mother. After all, you don't sit down with someone and get mom advice from that person unless you've got a certain rapport... ;-)

[catrox14]

He didn't get his Full Red-Eyed Fuck You, I'm Crowley demon side back until the penultimate episode of s10.  He was still playing "nice" and he was too distracted by Rowena to focus on the Winchesters.  He's not their friend whatsoever. And if they try to make him the friend again....ugh...especially with Dean.

 

There better be some full on enemy on enemy shenanigans between Crowley and the Boys.

[rue721]

I don't know if he'll banish him from the phone (too useful), but I think that after Sam tried to kill him so coldly, Crowley may have FINALLY got the message "he's jut not into you."  I remember how much he was seeking Sam's approval in Blade Runners.  I thought it might be a ruse, but nope... Crowley really WAS (as far as I can tell) trying to get Sam to see him as valuable.  And then Sam lobbied for Dean to kill him.  So, that was the first "nope" for Crowley.  Even after that, he had fun tormenting Sam and taking away his brother.  But then Sam was all cold-blooded again what with the hex bag and all.  So...Crowley is going to be staying away from Sam or forcing Sam to ask him for help.  Something.  But he's not playing with Sam anymore ... he's no fun (in a Crowley POV). 

 

I think that Crowley genuinely likes Dean, but he feels more of a kinship with Sam. Crowley just gets so *angsty* in his fights with Sam. The two fights that I remember off the top of my head are when Crowley freaked out at Sam in the church (S8) and when he freaked out at him after Sam tried to kill him (near the end of S10).

 

In contrast, when Dean has betrayed him, Crowley has basically taken it in stride. He hasn't done much of anything in response, not even taken revenge -- at the beginning of S10, Dean was literally beating him up, and Crowley just called up Sam to come and take his brother home. And he didn't do anything much that I remember after the First Blade "trick" that Dean pulled on him. He seemed kind of hurt, but he didn't flip his lid or anything.

 

I think that a major issue (from Crowley's POV) is that Crowley bared his soul to Sam (in the church) -- he basically went on a crying jag and literally pleaded for love -- and Sam's response was, "mehhhh." It was this monumental, intimate, soul-baring moment for Crowley, and it barely even registered for Sam! I think that makes for a really weird dynamic.

 

Also, I think that the main reason that Crowley is "closer" with Dean is because Dean lets him be. Crowley calls Dean up, and Dean takes his calls. He makes Dean offers, and Dean will consider those offers. And overall, Dean is just friendlier and nicer to him, as weird as that is. He'll hang out and have a drink, etc. Whereas Sam really doesn't ever seem to want anything to do with Crowley. Sam's MO with him is just to deflect and reject. I think that Crowley and Sam's lack of relationship is pretty clearly *Sam's* choice, not Crowley's.

 

The only thing Crowley does is honor agreements.  BUT he always makes sure his agreements leave him with some kind of benefit even if it's a lesser benefit to himself than the other parties to the agreement.

 

I think that's why he's going to go batshit crazy on Dean once the Darkness goes away. Dean broke the promise to give him back the First Blade.  Dean LIED to Crowley and that is something Crowley can't abide. And now that Crowley has his mojo back, look out. 

 

I think that Crowley is very practical. So I don't think that he'll go batshit crazy on anyone. I don't even know if he has that in him. He's not really a hothead, he's someone who loves finding and (relentlessly) working an angle.

 

Next season, I'm mostly looking forward to seeing what happens in the creepy, weird "love triangle" of Crowley, Sam, and Rowena. It's funny -- in Crowley's POV, I guess Sam is the golden boy who can do no wrong in anybody else's eyes. I mean, Sam was horrible to Rowena, but she kept scheming with him and making deals with him, and it was Crowley (her own son!) who she tried to kill. And even when Dean was going half-crazy from the Mark of Cain, he was still so obsessed with Sam that he'd rather kill Death himself than hurt a hair on Sam's head -- whereas, even as a demon, Dean beat up Crowley (the king of hell!), was sick of hanging out with him after only like two months of roadtripping, and just in general did whatever he pleased regardless of what Crowley wanted.

[catrox14]

Crowley's entire speech in The Prisoner and his eyes going red with black smoke happened after he had the last bit of humanity hexed out of him either on purpose by Rowena or because he was always that dark but trying to be good and her attempts to kill him brought out his killer instinct again.  He even said as much!

 

 

Crowley : That's what I get.

Sam: What?

Crowley: I said...That's what I get for trying to be the good guy.

Sam:  Wait a second. So, you're the good guy?

Crowley: Do you have any idea what I've been at for the past year?  The changes I made to hell!S\\

Sam: Am I supposed to be impressed by that?

Crowley : Yes!

[ Coughs ]  I thought...If I did better...I might actually feel something again...[ Coughs ] ...that it might matter.
It doesn't matter.

Sam: You know, maybe everybody else forgot about all the bad you've done, but I haven't!

I have watched you kill people, Crowley -- innocent people, people I cared about, people I loved.

[ Coughs ] So, yeah, you -- you have the accent and the -- and the suit and the snark, but at the end of it, you are a monster, just like all the rest of them.

And I'm gonna watch you die screaming, just like all the rest of them.

[ Coughs ]

Crowley:  You're right.  I am a monster.  And I've done bad.  I've done things you can't even imagine -- horrible, evil, messy things.[ Coughs ] And I've loved...Every...Damn...Minute. (His eyes glow red with black smoke coming out and he was spitting up blood)

[ Grunts ] So, thank you, Sam, for reminding me who I really am.[ Grunts ][ Sighs ][ Grunting ]

Powerful magic. Might have worked on any other demon.But me? Please.

[ Breathing heavily ]

I could kill you.

Snap my fingers.

Easiest thing in the world.

From here on, I want you to know that the only reason you're alive is because I allowed it.

And I want you to deliver a message.

You tell that ginger whore that I gave her a chance to walk away, and she spat in my face.

So, now...

She'll never see me coming.

 

 

So yeah.  Crowley is not to be trifled with anymore and IMO he is out for Rowena and the Winchesters. I don't believe he has any feelings for them at all anymore.  That's certainly my hope but I think that speech and his change of demeanor showed that a switch flipped in him. Game ON.

[rue721]

Yeah, but then he didn't actually kill Sam. He just convinced him that he could, and then let him go.

 

And he didn't do anything to Rowena, either -- he didn't even try to put the scare into her like he did into Sam (which was probably a smart move, because I doubt he *could* put the scare into her. She's his mom, she's just never going to be impressed LOL).

 

Honestly, I don't really understand the thing about demons and humanity, anyway. Since demons can be cured, apparently demon souls *are* human souls that are just messed up somehow and that can be fixed. So if Sam half-"fixed" Crowley's soul by half-curing him, then how could Crowley being upset at his mother and the Winchesters do anything to "mess up" his soul again and undo that half-"fix"? Crowley being upset doesn't seem like it would have anything to do about the state of how demon-ized/un-cured his soul is.

 

ETA:

Given his lack of follow-through, I suspect Crowley was just pissed and trying to get Sam to back off. Sort of like when a cat gets scared, so it puffs up to twice its usual size and hissess and tries to look as mean and scary as it possibly can.

Edited July 8, 2015 by rue721

[catrox14]

I don't understand this notion that Crowley should be disregarded or considered a good guy or an ally or not a threat anymore. 

 

Crowley became addicted to human blood. He was tainted by it. The hex got rid of the human blood that was still in him.

 

He didn't kill Sam because he wanted to put the fear of Crowley back in him. And he did that. Sam was terrified.  I'm sorry but that's just ridiculous to think that Crowley couldn't kill Sam. He chose not to kill for HIS OWN reasons that have nothing to do with being soft or liking the Winchesters.

 

He was humiliated by his dalliances with Dean. His reputation in Hell was damaged. Rowena might have more magical power but that's just going to infuriate him even more assuming he survived Cas trying to kill him.

 

Y'all can take Crowley lightly but I'm sure the Winchesters won't and won't work with unless they have absolutely NO choice. 

[AwesomO4000]

He didn't kill Sam because he wanted to put the fear of Crowley back in him. And he did that. Sam was terrified.  I'm sorry but that's just ridiculous to think that Crowley couldn't kill Sam. He chose not to kill for HIS OWN reasons that have nothing to do with being soft or liking the Winchesters.

 

Y'all can take Crowley lightly but I'm sure the Winchesters won't and won't work with unless they have absolutely NO choice. 

 

I'm guessing part of that reason was because Crowley didn't know how close they were to curing Dean, and if Crowley killed Sam and mark of Cain Dean found out... well let's just say Crowley isn't stupid and his survival instinct was likely in play. A properly scared / warned Sam would likely serve him better than a pissed off, potentially nothing to lose Dean who has Crowley in his sights.

 

I'm sure everybody knows - mess with Sam and Dean is going to make you pay, and vica versa - hence Sam trying to kill Crowley. Crowley is likely smart enough to know that he better take out both boys at the same time if he doesn't want to be looking over his shoulder for the next few decades.

[SueB]

I think Crowley is still a threat.  But I prefer him rather than have a power-vacuum in Hell.  Somehow, getting the gig makes you uber-powerful.  Crowley at least is a thinking demon, one who is apparently keeping every other demon away from Sam and Dean.  That's better than them getting attacked on a weekly basis by demons. 

[Krazykate58]

Crowley is a thinker, he is a chess player, and he uses others like tools in his bid to stay on top. Sure he sometimes hangs with the boys and Cas and will do things for the from time to time and protect them but they are all so his greatest weapons. Crowley knows that Sam and Dean will destroy any thing that could challenge Crowley in any way.  All Crowley has to do is point and turn lose. Sam and Dean are useful to him. And only a fool discards weapon wile it is still useful, and Crowley is no fool. He may play the fool from time to time. Crowley is all so a survivor,  he will do what ever it takes to stay alive.  I don't think Crowley wants Sam and Dean to know just how powerful he is, the only times he has shown   what he is capable of is when he is pissed or has no choice. If Sam and Dean are no longer useful to him or amuse him Crowley would waste no time killing them. 

[ahrtee]

See post below (darn site won't let you just delete and won't let me quote without opening a new window...)

Edited November 13, 2016 by ahrtee
Just oops.

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, Krazykate58 said:

Crowley is a thinker, he is a chess player, and he uses others like tools in his bid to stay on top. Sure he sometimes hangs with the boys and Cas and will do things for the from time to time and protect them but they are all so his greatest weapons. Crowley knows that Sam and Dean will destroy any thing that could challenge Crowley in any way.  All Crowley has to do is point and turn lose. Sam and Dean are useful to him. And only a fool discards weapon wile it is still useful, and Crowley is no fool. He may play the fool from time to time. Crowley is all so a survivor,  he will do what ever it takes to stay alive.  I don't think Crowley wants Sam and Dean to know just how powerful he is, the only times he has shown   what he is capable of is when he is pissed or has no choice. If Sam and Dean are no longer useful to him or amuse him Crowley would waste no time killing them. 

IA with a large part of this, but there's one other part:  Crowley is also a salesman, as he pointed out several times.  He didn't start out to be King of Hell, but took advantage of the void after all the more powerful leaders (Azazel, Lilith and Lucifer) were either killed or banished, and because he's smarter than the average demon, he managed to control them.  I don't know if getting the gig made him "uber powerful" as SueB said above, though he hasn't really shown it.  I think he rules mostly because most of the demons are too stupid/afraid to challenge/want to have a leader to follow, just as the angels really wanted a leader, fell apart without one, and broke off into factions where each chose a leader to follow.  

But even when he was undisputed King, before Abaddon and Lucifer came back on the scene, his was a "kinder, gentler" hell, with long lines and boredom replacing meathooks and brimstone, and he was adamant about honoring his deals, even before he was "tainted/weakened" by human blood.  

So I think Crowley and the Winchesters actually have a mutually beneficial arrangement, based on "lesser of evils" and a kind of warped respect for each other.  *Both* sides use each other as needed.  Neither side fully trusts the other.  All have betrayed and been betrayed by the other.  And I think they all know that they can kill/be killed if they feel it's necessary.  Crowley certainly had plenty of chances to kill the boys over the years, even after they were "no longer useful"(ie, after Dean killed Cain and before they knew he was necessary to hold back the Darkness), and the boys have similarly let Crowley go, so I think they're pretty evenly matched.  

[lmdreamer]

Does Crowley have a death wish even a little one?  The last two episodes make a strong case.  He cant be that stupid.

[DeeDee79]

I rewatched Abandon All Hope when it reran last week and I'd forgotten how awesome Crowley used to be. I'd even go so far as to say that I enjoyed his introductory episode as much as I enjoyed Castiel's despite the downer ending with Ellen and Jo dying. *sigh* Here's hoping for future awesomeness outside of the Lucifer related dreck!

[AwesomO4000]

Brought over from the spoilers thread. No spoilers:

13 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Crowley was for all practical purposes in love with Dean. He connived to turn him into a demon so that they could be besties forever and was the laughing stock of Hell because he dropped everything to be at Dean's beck and call.

Which did not happen until after Crowley became almost human after going through Sam's blood treatments at the end of season 8. Until that point - and especially throughout season 8 - Crowley was as evil as he'd ever been: torturing innocent angels, cutting off prophet's fingers, killing other prophets who were just kids, and killing people Sam and Dean had saved just to try to blackmail them.

Sure, after Crowley went through almost being turned human along with some human blood addiction because of that - and he was already a laughingstock with some of the demons for his human blood addiction - and then decided that Sam was no longer his "Marnie," then he turned to Dean, but for me, I can't discount the effect of Crowley's almost being turned human first in his changes because it was such a big part of his story back then (in season 9).

And I would also say that Crowley originally looked at a potential Mark of Cain Dean as his ticket to gaining respect again and becoming his old, evil self again. He could rule hell again with his enforcer by his side. This is not a good or a redemptive motivation, in my opinion (and which is what I meant about Dean also having a bit of a "bad" influence on Crowley, due to what Dean could get him in terms of power and respect). And wanting to turn Dean into a demon is also not a good thing nor a redemptive action. He did feel jilted by Dean and miss being friends with him, but I can't say for sure that that was all just his association with Dean and not partly due to Crowley missing and trying to relive some of those "feelings" he had when he was addicted to human blood.

So, I'm not saying that Dean didn't have any influence at all on Crowley. I'm saying that in my opinion, the effect of the human blood treatment and the resulting aftermath likely also played some part in Crowley's changes.

Quote

We are not watching the same show.

If you mean that I am not watching the show and seeing that every good influence is because of Dean while Sam is the antichrist, then yes, I agree we aren't watching the same show. I like both brothers and see both of them as human, fallible people who do both good and not so good things while trying to navigate the difficult world they live in.

[SueB]

2 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Brought over from the spoilers thread. No spoilers:

Which did not happen until after Crowley became almost human after going through Sam's blood treatments at the end of season 8. Until that point - and especially throughout season 8 - Crowley was as evil as he'd ever been: torturing innocent angels, cutting off prophet's fingers, killing other prophets who were just kids, and killing people Sam and Dean had saved just to try to blackmail them.

Sure, after Crowley went through almost being turned human along with some human blood addiction because of that - and he was already a laughingstock with some of the demons for his human blood addiction - and then decided that Sam was no longer his "Marnie," then he turned to Dean, but for me, I can't discount the effect of Crowley's almost being turned human first in his changes because it was such a big part of his story back then (in season 9).

And I would also say that Crowley originally looked at a potential Mark of Cain Dean as his ticket to gaining respect again and becoming his old, evil self again. He could rule hell again with his enforcer by his side. This is not a good or a redemptive motivation, in my opinion (and which is what I meant about Dean also having a bit of a "bad" influence on Crowley, due to what Dean could get him in terms of power and respect). And wanting to turn Dean into a demon is also not a good thing nor a redemptive action. He did feel jilted by Dean and miss being friends with him, but I can't say for sure that that was all just his association with Dean and not partly due to Crowley missing and trying to relive some of those "feelings" he had when he was addicted to human blood.

So, I'm not saying that Dean didn't have any influence at all on Crowley. I'm saying that in my opinion, the effect of the human blood treatment and the resulting aftermath likely also played some part in Crowley's changes.

If you mean that I am not watching the show and seeing that every good influence is because of Dean while Sam is the antichrist, then yes, I agree we aren't watching the same show. I like both brothers and see both of them as human, fallible people who do both good and not so good things while trying to navigate the difficult world they live in.

ITA the human blood made a permanent change to Crowley.  Compared to many demons, Crowley seemed to have his blood lust under control -- but he did HAVE blood lust.  "I torture all my friends". "What could you do to me that I haven't already done to myself." Plus the way he dealt with the Alphas.  The worst we saw after the human blood was him putting darts into his minion.  Yes he killed many with a *poof* but that's not the same as when he kept putting electrical probes in Eve's head.  He only kept in power by being smart and limiting who came topside.  

Regarding the Winchesters, he always had a grudging respect for them.  I'm pretty sure he crafted the whole First Blade plan as payback for them getting him addicted and locking him up for months.  So, while the blood addiction set the stage, I think it was subsequent interaction w/ Sam & Dean that cemented the change.  

Beginning with the First Born team-up, the events of Blade Runner, Mother's Little Helper, and King of the Damned, Crowley's focus shifted from Sam (who kept shutting him down) to Dean.  Mark Shepard said in a M&G that Crowley focused on Dean because he was Team Free Will's leader.  He was grooming Dean through the back-half of S9 & the subsequent 'Summer of Love' to be his partner.  But through that time, Dean's personality is what made walking away from the relationship so difficult.  Crowley genuinely liked & admired Dean. Dean was a 'guy's guy' for Crowley. Strong, good with the ladies, lived by a specific code and would follow that.  All things Crowley wanted to be himself. Plus they genuinely had a good time when Dean was a demon.  Even though Dean rejected Crowley all the time, Dean called Crowley when he needed him and appreciated that Crowley helped out.  So, I think his admiration of Dean combined with what little scraps of acknowledgement Dean gave him* provided the mental elements that added to the human blood physical changes.  The two combined, IMO, to make Crowley realize that he really didn't like hanging out with demons and furthermore, being "King" was boring when he wasn't blood-thirsty evil.  

*And Dean liked Crowley.  He felt he shouldn't IMO, but he did. Just by admitting that he lied to Crowley in Executioner's Song, Dean was acknowledging that he had done Crowley wrong.  If he truly didn't give a shit for Crowley, he would have handed that Blade to Cas and provided a scathing remark.  But he didn't. And Crowley knows why Dean did it (to have access to it without having to bargain with Crowley, the King of Hell).  But Dean's interaction w/ Crowley after that event was still good.  He gave him family advice just a few episodes later.  I think if Dean had not accepted Crowley at some level, Crowley wouldn't have had his redemption.     

[DeeDee79]

3 minutes ago, SueB said:

ITA the human blood made a permanent change to Crowley.  Compared to many demons, Crowley seemed to have his blood lust under control -- but he did HAVE blood lust.  "I torture all my friends". "What could you do to me that I haven't already done to myself." Plus the way he dealt with the Alphas.  The worst we saw after the human blood was him putting darts into his minion.  Yes he killed many with a *poof* but that's not the same as when he kept putting electrical probes in Eve's head.  He only kept in power by being smart and limiting who came topside.  

Regarding the Winchesters, he always had a grudging respect for them.  I'm pretty sure he crafted the whole First Blade plan as payback for them getting him addicted and locking him up for months.  So, while the blood addiction set the stage, I think it was subsequent interaction w/ Sam & Dean that cemented the change.  

Beginning with the First Born team-up, the events of Blade Runner, Mother's Little Helper, and King of the Damned, Crowley's focus shifted from Sam (who kept shutting him down) to Dean.  Mark Shepard said in a M&G that Crowley focused on Dean because he was Team Free Will's leader.  He was grooming Dean through the back-half of S9 & the subsequent 'Summer of Love' to be his partner.  But through that time, Dean's personality is what made walking away from the relationship so difficult.  Crowley genuinely liked & admired Dean. Dean was a 'guy's guy' for Crowley. Strong, good with the ladies, lived by a specific code and would follow that.  All things Crowley wanted to be himself. Plus they genuinely had a good time when Dean was a demon.  Even though Dean rejected Crowley all the time, Dean called Crowley when he needed him and appreciated that Crowley helped out.  So, I think his admiration of Dean combined with what little scraps of acknowledgement Dean gave him* provided the mental elements that added to the human blood physical changes.  The two combined, IMO, to make Crowley realize that he really didn't like hanging out with demons and furthermore, being "King" was boring when he wasn't blood-thirsty evil.  

*And Dean liked Crowley.  He felt he shouldn't IMO, but he did. Just by admitting that he lied to Crowley in Executioner's Song, Dean was acknowledging that he had done Crowley wrong.  If he truly didn't give a shit for Crowley, he would have handed that Blade to Cas and provided a scathing remark.  But he didn't. And Crowley knows why Dean did it (to have access to it without having to bargain with Crowley, the King of Hell).  But Dean's interaction w/ Crowley after that event was still good.  He gave him family advice just a few episodes later.  I think if Dean had not accepted Crowley at some level, Crowley wouldn't have had his redemption.     

Great post @SueB.

[AwesomO4000]

18 minutes ago, SueB said:

So, I think his admiration of Dean combined with what little scraps of acknowledgement Dean gave him* provided the mental elements that added to the human blood physical changes.  The two combined, IMO, to make Crowley realize that he really didn't like hanging out with demons and furthermore, being "King" was boring when he wasn't blood-thirsty evil.  

Which was basically my point, that Crowley was different than the other examples, because there was the human blood factor.

20 minutes ago, SueB said:

Beginning with the First Born team-up, the events of Blade Runner, Mother's Little Helper, and King of the Damned, Crowley's focus shifted from Sam (who kept shutting him down) to Dean. 

Heh... I don't blame Sam for shutting Crowley down. Not only did Crowley kill people they saved, he killed Sarah of all people, and he tried to kill Jodi. That was personal to Sam. If Sam didn't hate Crowley already, I'm pretty sure that would've done it. From what happened afterwards, and even though the show didn't focus maybe as much as it should have on it, I think Sarah's death was a crushing blow for Sam. She was more than someone Sam cared about a long time ago... she represented something out there that proved that what he and Dean did mattered, and Crowley ripped that all away, killing her in front of Sam's eyes while he was helpless to stop it. After he'd learned that she had a good life and a little girl at home. I think it went a long way to Sam feeling that it didn't really matter anymore if he died in the finale.

And yeah, there wasn't going to be any fuzzy-feelings for Crowley after that.