The Horsemen They Are a-Changin': SH Seasons Comparison

[amensisterfriend]

As a newcomer to the addictive obsession that is this show, I'm intrigued by the comments I'm seeing about how Season 1 may or may not differ from what we've seen so far of Season 2 in terms of overall tone and energy, plotting, characterizations, etc. It's obviously too early to evaluate Season 2 as a whole, but what are some of the similarities and differences you see so far? Do you prefer one season to the other? What are your overall favorite and least favorite episodes from both seasons? I'm eager to read everyone's thoughts! 

[Elsinore]

Favourite episode in s1 was John Doe and the pilot.

 

Favourite episode in s2 eh... don't know really. Perhaps it is too early to say.

[formerlyfreedom]

Here's a place to compare and contrast (so far!) the first season with the second. Please keep in mind, episode and character discussions should occur in those topics. Thanks for posting!

[DearEvette]

One thing I am noticing about this season versus the first season is that so far, 6 episodes in, we haven't had a lot of episodes that felt like there has been any forward momentum on the Overall Myth.  Sure,Henry is lurking around, twirling his baby-hair mustache, but our heroes feel like they are standing still.

 

The things that made the series really strong last year -- the Apocalypse, the heroes uncovering new things, them trying to actively fight it, a strong, fully involved support system (Jenny & Irving) helping out -- all that seems to be muted, if not completely erased, in S2.  Ichabod's head doesn't feel like it is in the game as it was S1.  And Abby is too concerned about Ichabod's feels to be as proactive as she was last season.

 

By Episode 6 of last season our heroes had discovered they were witnesses, discovered Moloch, learned about the Hessians, discovered Corbin's secret files, found the underground lair, And Ichabod was ready to drink poison to kill the Horseman.  Also six episodes in we had been given equal pieces of Abbie and  Ichabod's past ... little breadcrumbs that clued us in to how they got here.  Heck, by epsiode 2 we knew that what Abbie & Jenny had witnessed in the woods was critical. By episode 7 they had trapped the Horseman of Death.

 

In contrast this season, The only thing proactive they've done to advance their fight has been  to create the Kindred.  And so far they haven't even asked each other about where he might be.  Every other episode has been Monster of the Week with them simply chasing down the immediate monster.  They aren't doing enough, imo, to show Ab & Ich doing stuff to to fight the bigger fight.

 

Also, in S1 we didn't get Crane Family Drama overload until after Episode 10 when we had two episodes in a row dedicated to Cranepain (Sanctuary & Golem)  In hindsight, these eps were necessary but at the time felt tedious to sit through, especially after the revelation in Necromancer (ep. 8) that headless was Abraham and became so because of Katrina.

 

Meanwhile s2 we've have two episodes already pretty heavy in Crane Family Drama  (or rather I would argue  with Henry lurking around all of the episodes are tinged with Crane family drama).  So I personally am already feeling Crane Family fatigue and we are not even halfway through the season yet.

 

And finally, we only had to deal with one episode of 'Galloping to Rescue Katrina' in S1.

 

Meanwhile we've already had two of those in the first 5 episodes of this season alone, and the next one looks to be another one.

 

For me s2 is a case where the parts (some character moments, some plot moments) are better than  the whole so far.

Edited November 3, 2014 by DearEvette

[amensisterfriend]

I probably have a different (odder?!) perspective than once since I just mainlined all of S1 over the past week or so while simultaneously catching up on S2. I find myself agreeing completely with a lot of the criticism as to why S2 fails to measure up to S1's wonderfulness---the sluggish and inconsistently paced 'arc' at the expense of giving us more satisfying MotWs, the inability to use Irving and Jenny, the repetitive yes-we-get-it-move-ON-already scenes with Henry, the stubborn insistence on shoving yawn-inducing Katrina and her chemistry-free connection with Ichabod to the forefront, etc.  As lame and shallow an analysis as this is, I have to add that I think s1 was just a whole lot more fun. It just feels like there was more energy, more wink-wink self-awareness, more humor and more moments of joy. I really hope this isn't one of the many shows that makes a self-conscious effort to be grimmer, loftier and more somber as it goes along in a (usually ill-fated) attempt to be higher quality and more 'epic.' I feel like Supernatural traveled down a similar path, and I still find myself missing the greater sense of fun and adventure of that show's first season. 

Edited November 4, 2014 by amensisterfriend

[phoenics]

I agree with you about the whole "fun" thing - this show seriously has become un-fun. Last night was just awful.

[shanndee]

Season 2 is definitely less fun. It is also sadly lacking in the interaction of the 4 core characters of Season 1. I need more Jenny and Irving time.

[ChelseaNH]

I think the problem is that we've caught on to their old tricks and they haven't come up with any new tricks.  There's only so many times you can go to the historic magical doodad well without getting stale.

 

But spreading the action more evenly around the team members would definitely help.  I think too many showrunners turn "changing things up" into "breaking stuff that works."  Which is tolerable if you build something at least as workable and interesting in its place, but that hasn't happened here.

[HalcyonDays]

It's not even that this season is "less fun". It's this: There was a scene when they had Headless in that masonic cell, and Irving says "A dead guy, a mental patient, and a time traveler from the Revolution."  and Abbie responds 'That's our team."

 

It's not quite the team, but for me, the team is Abbie, Ichabod, Irving and Jenny. Where is that team? They only had brief scenes but the chemistry and awesomeness was undeniable. This season, it's all gone. And for what? To push that Emmy for Noble. To force Goffman's Muse to the frontlines? To irritate the fuck out of me? The overall vision is gone. Who would have thought that their panicky writing for season 1 (because they were literally writing episodes last minute due to circumstance and timing) would actually be better than their well-thought out second season.

[phoenics]

I wish I could ask Goffman to his face:  "Hey, dude - did you cast Nicole as Abbie because you thought - hey - no one would ever want Abbie with my epic romantic male lead, so that way I can push Katia to the forefront?"

 

Cuz I really wanna know.  They claim they weren't casting with diversity in mind, and they cast Nicole because she was awesome - but I did hear that Katia was cast as Katrina FIRST.  Nicole was second and Tom Mison got the part due to his chemistry with Nicole and his ability to rock the part.  Everyone else who got a part on the show chemistry tested with everyone else - EXCEPT Katia.

 

And it shows.

 

It also feels really unfair - to see Katia not have to work as hard to get her part.  She didn't have to pass the "chemistry tests" that the rest of the cast did, but is now gobbling up screen time from the other actors who actually seemed to "earn" it.  Not a knock against Katia personally - just pointing out that the rest of the cast had a harder audition - whereas she was "Goffman-ed" in.

 

I wonder if they chem-tested Matt?

 

This season the show is clearly suffering from a sophomore slump as well as pretty bad chemistry among the cast - especially when you factor in that Irving and Jenny are sidelined.

 

I must say - when Henry was just the sin-eater, he enhanced the show.  Now as a villain and the whiny, bratty, 70 year old "son" of the Cranes, he's annoying, declawed and annoying.  

 

Headless used to be menacing and terrifying.  Now he's whipped.  

 

Jenny never altered the show chemistry - she enhanced it.

 

Irving enhanced it.  That storyline with his daughter and ex-wife?  That was really, really good and really, really scary!  

 

I cannot help but feel like the Henry as War and the Crane's son storyline is all to give Katrina more of a role on  the show and it's destroying it.  She destroys the chemistry of the show - completely destroys it.  

 

And someone else mentioned this:  I actually miss the cops too.  This whole show started around Abbie and Sheriff Corbin - two cops!  And with Irving, that was still there.  Half the time, Abby doesn't even feel like a cop - she feels isolated from the police, whereas last season she wasn't.  

 

This season, I think that's the other issue - no one feels grounded anymore.  There is no deep connection to anything grounding for any of the characters.  Ichabod was grounded last year by Abbie.  Abbie was grounded by her police work and her connection to the police station and JENNY!  She also had a connection to Irving.

 

Another problem with sidelining Irving and Jenny is that it literally sets Abbie adrift and makes her seem disconnected from her own life.  She has a life.  She's from THIS century!  This time!  OMGosh - I think I just figured out what's so off this season besides all of the other nonsense.  This season, the show is focusing really hard on the characters from the past:  Henry (technically he's from the past), Katrina, Ichabod, Abraham.

 

The only character we really know from the present right now is Abbie - since Irving and Jenny have been sidelined (and Luke is just gone).  Andy is gone too.  

 

Thus the show feels out of place.  Even the Ichabbie moments are starting to feel like shipper bait to me - put in (with no heart) as a matter of obligation, but the writers (especially last night) would probably love to scrap Ichabbie moments if they could.  

 

Too many characters from the past are being given too much airtime in the now - which makes Ichabod not look so special - and too few characters from the present are being showcased, which gives most viewers nothing to relate to.

 

Whew.  Rant over.

[Carrie Ann]

So I just realized that in the first eight episodes of Season 2, four of them will focus on tired, hoary woman-centered tropes. Ep 4 featured a mother sacrificing her daughter to a demon in order to save her boy-children. Ep 5 featured a Psycho Murdering Ex-Girlfriend. Ep 7 featured a Demon Pregnancy. Ep 8 looks to be about a Succubus/Killer Seductress character. I don't even want to look ahead to future episode descriptions.

 

I mean...did the writers just troll through TV Tropes to brainstorm for the season?

[supposebly]

I actually thought the first season had just as many pacing issues as this one. And there too was not enough Irving.

 

I also think that they really don't know what to do with their characters, except Abbie and Ichabod which translates often Super!Ichy and Super!Abbie.

 

The fact that the apocalypse is somehow restricted to Sleepy Hollow and surroundings, that no one realizes that there are tunnels underneath except Abbie and Ichabod.

 

These days I'm mostly wondering how bored Old Headless must be. He comes, bitches at Katrina, and leaves. What does he do all day? Did he get a day job?

 

Adding new characters like what's his face who deals in the supernatural. Really, there must be such a market in Sleepy Hollow! Now we have always-providing library and always providing artefacts. It all feels very lazy. Like on Supernatural when Bobby became a crutch so the writers didn't have to think much about how Sam and Dean would figure something out.

 

I think what bugs me the most is that on the one hand, they introduce new characters but somehow no one notices what's going on.

[DeLurker]

S1 I really looked forward to each episode, even though I could not watch them when they aired because I am a chickenshit and my bad children would not watch it with me so I wouldn't be overly afraid.  I had to wait until the next day during daylight hours to watch.

 

S2 I watch when it airs.  The Villain Decay as mentioned in the Deliverance ep thread has really taken the wind out of a good scare.  I haven't been the least bit concerned that something seriously bad was going to happen to a main player. 

[phoenics]

S1 I really looked forward to each episode, even though I could not watch them when they aired because I am a chickenshit and my bad children would not watch it with me so I wouldn't be overly afraid.  I had to wait until the next day during daylight hours to watch.

 

S2 I watch when it airs.  The Villain Decay as mentioned in the Deliverance ep thread has really taken the wind out of a good scare.  I haven't been the least bit concerned that something seriously bad was going to happen to a main player.

I still remember numerous scenes last year that terrified me. That one with Andy when Moloch snapped his head back. The one with Abbie and the mirror cracking the first time (and Moloch moving really fast in that scary demon way with the whoosh whoosh whoosh sound effect that terrifies me)... the possession scene with Jenny and then with Macy...

I remember having to sleep with a light on - I was so scared, lol.

But this season?

I haven't been scared. AT ALL. The writers this season don't understand suspense or how to create fear in small subtle touches.

Sleepy Hollow has lost its menace.

[amensisterfriend]

It's not even that this season is "less fun". It's this:

 

For you---but that's an opinion, not fact. For me, the show IS markedly less fun this season...in addition to the myriad other flaws that you guys have eloquently pointed out! 

[apgold]

I agree that the show isn't as good as last season by a mile - but many shows suffer a sophomore slump, so I'm not as hard on it as some of you.  I think with the 18 episode order, more isn't necessarily better.  The show runners had only 13 episodes to establish the mythology, the characters, etc. last season and for a variety of reasons it worked really well.

 

I don’t think the show has lost its scary/creepy factor though.  I thought the scene where Abbie was nearly drowned by the Weeping Lady was pretty terrifying as well as Katrina and the spider.

 

Ichabod certainly is frustrating this season – going back and forth on his beloved Katrina. I thought we saw some headway with the Weeping Lady episode (which was my fave this season so far, poor Miss Caroline) where he started to doubt her but just put her in peril and all is forgotten.   It’s pretty nauseating but I think that may be the intention of the showrunners and will lead to him making some stupid decisions and nearly cost Abbie her life and trust of him.  If we don’t get that by the end of the season, I will be disappointed along with the rest of you.

 

Yes, we want more POCs and Jenny and Irving (and Andy if Selfie gets canned). Less Katrina unless she’s more interesting (or evil).  Headless Abraham has become toothless, Henry is becoming a one note villain and the CGI is just bad, LOL.  But I’m not ready to give up yet  :)

[ChelseaNH]

but just put her in peril and all is forgotten

 

So, you wanted Ichabod to figure, "Well, I'm not sure if I can trust her again, so I might as well let her die"?

[HalcyonDays]

So, you wanted Ichabod to figure, "Well, I'm not sure if I can trust her again, so I might as well let her die"?

 

I think it's more - how can we get the audience to forget all of the shady things Katrina did from Season 1 episode 1 and on, and all of the lies and withholding of information and dicey behaviour and manipulations and lack of magical power prowess...."Let's just put her in peril and the audience will forget all of it."

[ChelseaNH]

If they were trying to make the audience forget about it, they shouldn't have had Crane say anything about it.  As I recall, he did bring it up this episode.  I think it's too soon to draw conclusions about any such intentions.

[RiddleyWalker]

I can see now that I was fooled by last season. I mistakenly assumed that "A War is Coming" meant the show would become larger, expand and be an epic adventure in stopping the Apocalypse. Instead of following the pattern of a LOTR or HP or even a Fringe or X-files, the writers' model is the old gothic soap opera "Dark Shadows" with better production values. Instead of Barnabus Collins and the Collins family we get Jeremy Crane and the Crane family (and, yes, the Mills family as well). Might as well put it on during the day with the rest of the soaps...

Edited November 7, 2014 by RiddleyWalker

[DeLurker]

 

the writers model is the old gothic soap opera "Dark Shadows"

They really need the Hand of Count Petofi - I would be overjoyed!

[MizArk]

Agree with everyone that the "scare factor" has been diluted this season. Turning the Headless Freaking Horseman into a whiny lovesick teenager who can be defeated by opening the curtains is not scary. Making War a whiny little boy with Mommy and Daddy issues is not scary. Irving's locked away, no one knows where the hell Jenny is, Katrina's out of purgatory and living with her blond (when he has a head) boyfriend, apparently not even forced to do laundry or dishes. The only Big Bad left is Moloch, and I half expect them to reveal that he only needs a big hug from Daddy (Satan?) to be redeemed. I don't believe the Epic Love Story and my team has been scattered, so I find myself watching only for the brief glimpses of Season 1 brilliance (the voting scene, "I must internet -- now!") I hope it turns around soon, but faith is waning ...

[RiddleyWalker]

They really need the Hand of Count Petofi - I would be overjoyed!

Ha! That would be interesting indeed!  I think it's telling that Henry is holed up in a mansion associated with his family just as Barnabus was...

[HalcyonDays]

I can see now that I was fooled by last season. I mistaken assumed that "A War is Coming" meant the show would become larger, expand and be an epic adventure in stopping the Apocalypse.

 

This is what I thought also. I know their budget increased, they had more time to plan, more time to film, etc. So I expected some more epic battles, like the scene that was cut from the opening of Season 2 (Crane fighting off British Soldier Zombies). How cool would that have been. Instead, we get boring wife drama and yes, everything seems more contained. I mean, we saw the inside of the precinct last year, and cops milling around. This year - nothing.

 

No Headless with a semi-automatic, flinging that flaming axe around. No good sword fights. No Frank and Jenny and a swat team taking out some baddies, etc. It's really self-contained now.

 

I expected 'War" to mess with more townspeople, have them infight/join the fight, like the Hessians, have the core four (Irving/Jenny/Crane and Abbie) have to doubt many townspeople, for their shady behaviour. Instead - everyone is separated, we get demon babies and wife drama, a weak Headed Headless and a moustache-twirling comically unfrightening villain called Jeremy.

 

Of all of the typical tropes they are throwing at us, the one I wanted to see was Katrina is evil - because it made perfect logical sense. That would have made me enjoy her character. It would've been fun for the actress to play, and again, would explain a lot. Instead we got...

[vanarnd1]

I think it is a variety of things, like mentioned above it seems like there has been a greater focus on the characters from the past(Abraham, Katrina, and Henry) that has taken away screentime from the present day characters. This also has made the tone somewhat more serious and dramatic when there is a scene involving the Cranes I think it can take away from the  more humorous supernatural element the show had in season 1.

 

Also i think the show has fallen into more predictable patterns with Henry being the main villian( and the witnesses barely overcoming his obstacles week after week). It feels like things have stalled a little bit as they try to strech the story out over 18 episodes, that could be part of the reason we got an episode like last week's to keep the "redemption of Henry" theme going.

 

i think to a certain extent it could just be an unavoidable sophmore slump, but the writers haven't helped by trying to fix something that wasn't broken to begin with.

Edited November 9, 2014 by vanarnd1

[HalcyonDays]

Honestly, I think the whole SH season 2 problems stem from the show trying to showcase John Noble.

 

Back when TwoP was running, and John Noble was cast, most people seemed excited about it, because they were Fringe fans (I've never watched it). One poster in particular however was against the casting. I remember her saying that she thought it was a big mistake. Orci and Kurtzman were involved with Fringe and loved Noble but apparently were upset or at least annoyed that he didn't get the Emmy they thought he deserved. She said that the casting of Noble on SH was simply a way to make an attempt at the Emmy. I didn't know anything about the actor, but he is really good.

 

Looking back, I think she was dead right. I think this is where the show first went wrong. The whole Noble arc is what started it all. They want to get him an Emmy, right? So they need to showcase his acting talent, and one way to do this is to manufacture drama, drama and more drama. And what better way to do this, then to kick off with the Crane family drama.

 

The whole arc of Jeremy/Henry started during the episode Sanctuary, and we started complaining about Crane being an jerk to Abbie, being side-lined, he mooning over the wife, because she was featured more, and she was featured more because she is the mother of Henry.

 

Season 2 starts, and they needed to continue with Evil Henry, continue giving him material to showcase his skills. So how to do that - insert more Crane family drama, which led to more Katrina, more baby BS, more angst from Crane, etc.

 

That comment from this poster had stuck in my mind since I think October-ish of 2013 (whenever Noble was cast). It's obviously just an opinion, but I really do think this is where the show really truly went wrong - trying to insert a really wonderful actor into a narrative, simply in order to showcase his surperior acting prowess (He is good), and in order to do so, they had to manufacture Crane Family Drama. This meant that now Katrina would inevitably have to take a more prominent role, since Henry is their son, and in turn, Crane had to become more of a jerk, because they decided to push redemption, which makes Crane and Katrina come off as idiots, and ends up also sidelining Abbie, who knows better, all so that you could get those Crane vs. Henry scenes. Then they somehow had to manipulate Headless and others things to revolve around Nobel.

 

Henry/Jeremy is too cartoonish. There is too much Katrina. To insert Katrina, but to keep her from Crane/Abbie, they made Headless "human", and then somehow decided to add more baby storylines, to keep Katrina around, but away from Ichabbie, but they have to keep Katrina around also because of the redemption storyline, but then they have to then connect her to Headless, who was in love with Katrina, who...(see what I mean).

 

Again, this is just my opinion, but I really think that by forcing John Noble on us, and wanting to write around him and possibly secure him this elusive Emmy, they ended up creating a SH-verse that is starting to implode on itself. The problems are all connected to trying to build a story around Henry/Jeremy.

 

Funny how the season 1 finale was such an amazing thing that very few saw coming, but by now making season 2 about War (and showcasing Noble), they have destroyed it. All to (again, my opinion) secure the Emmy that he was so unjustly denied for his role on Fringe.

 

Man, this was long-winded.

[Carrie Ann]

I am a John Noble fan, and a Fringe fan, and I absolutely loved him as Walter.

 

But I hate his role on this show, and I don't think he's doing a particularly great job with it. Most of that is the fault of the writing, which has given Henry no nuance or subtlety at all. And that's the thing that made his portrayal of Walter Bishop so effective. Walter was an eccentric and prone to doing crazy things, but then he could just kill you with a tiny look. Just break your heart by twitching his eyebrow.

 

There is none of that in Henry, so all we're seeing is hamminess. I mean, good for John, trying to make something memorable happen on screen, but it's just not working for me.

 

As for the Emmy idea, I don't buy that being the reason for his casting at all. The reason he never got noticed for Fringe is that it was a genre show, and no one took it seriously. That couldn't be more true of Sleepy Hollow, despite its ratings and critical notice last year. There is basically no way anyone from this show would win an acting award for it, and I don't think anyone at SH is fooling themselves about that. But I do think the EPs were very fond of JN and wanted to work with him again because they know he can create magic on screen. They forgot that you need to do the work behind the camera as well.

[Indi]

John Noble can do a great villain. However, Henry/Jeremy is just not a good concept, no matter how much fun John Noble is having fun with this role. Henry, by virtue of being a Crane, is boring and only brings unnecessary soapy drama, just like his parents. All of them are bogging the show down with their family drama and it makes me sad, because Henry could have been so much better if he hadn't been a Crane.

 

In Fringe, John Noble also played a great villain, Walternate. That's what they should have aimed for: ruthless cold efficiency. At least for a while, Walternate was scarier that Headless, Henry and Moloch at their best put together. Instead, we have Ichy's and Katrina's whiny spawn. 

[MrsRafaelBarba]

Wonder. why Richard Cetrone didn't return as Headless this season?

[Sepia]

I wasn't sure where to post this, but am I correct in saying that Phillip Iscove and Len Wiseman wrote the next two episodes? It'll be interesting to note the differences if that's the case.

[phoenics]

They did? These two eppies will probably be the best of the season then. They wrote Mama?

[DeLurker]

 

S1 I really looked forward to each episode, even though I could not watch them when they aired because I am a chickenshit and my bad children would not watch it with me so I wouldn't be overly afraid.  I had to wait until the next day during daylight hours to watch.

Quoting myself.  Mama had the same intensity that S1 had - if all the eps felt like this, I would still be watching (happily) the day after.

Edited November 18, 2014 by DeLurker

[Sepia]

They did? These two eppies will probably be the best of the season then. They wrote Mama?

No, I'm sorry about the confusion, but Damian Kindler wrote last night's episode, per twitter. Totally my mistake, I had read the synopsis for 'Mama' over at IMDb and It just listed the show's creators (Iscove and Wiseman) as the writers.

[phoenics]

No, I'm sorry about the confusion, but Damian Kindler wrote last night's episode, per twitter. Totally my mistake, I had read the synopsis for 'Mama' over at IMDb and It just listed the show's creators (Iscove and Wiseman) as the writers.

 

Thanks for the correction!  We will have to keep an eye on Damian Kindler - he wrote a very good episode... 

[RiddleyWalker]

Note: I'm double posting this as I originally posted this on the Katrina thread and….well, being as it's a Katrina thread, I thought a lot of members would ignore it. Moderators feel free to delete the other post if you choose. ;)

 

The show is going a different direction than I'd hoped, but I'm starting to see a lot of humorous potential with Katrina. Acceptance is the final stage of grief they say and as the "Terminator" Headless Horseman is unlikely to return, I wrote this short comedy fanfic today (with apologies to Terry Pratchett) with that in mind. If nothing else, it was strangely cathartic.

This is a scene at the Headless house with Abraham and Katrina who are now married after she goes to the "Dark Side." Again, this is (well it's meant to be) humorous and I riff on the Terry Pratchett/Discworld "Death" quite a bit. If anyone reads it let me know what you think....https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByZS5seVV5x_WWZjM1NpVDdnSm8/view?usp=sharing

Edited November 23, 2014 by RiddleyWalker

[cynic]

Wonder. why Richard Cetrone didn't return as Headless this season?

I don't know if it's true, but I read a post somewhere that said he's the double in the bat suit for the new movie. If that's true, I could see that interfering with his appearing here. Good for him, but it's a loss for SH for sure. He had great physicality and presence.

Someone mentioned a while back that the show is too focused now on characters from the past. The more I think about it, the more I agree. I rewatched the first couple episodes recently and was struck by the difference in tone. The pilot, in particular, feels much more urban fantasy where everything is grounded in the modern day with a busy police department and glimpses of the city. Crane is clearly the fish out of water. The contrast is striking. There are so many people from the past now with Ichabod, Katrina, Abraham, and even Henry (though he's more modern as well), that a lot of that contrast has been lost. Worse, it makes Crane feel less special. Plus, I think there are a lot of viewers who don't normally watch fantasy shows who are willing to watch what's basically a buddy cop procedural peppered with a whole bunch of crazy, but are less willing to suffer through misty, harlequin novel whispering hocus pocus. Man, I miss season one.

[fantique]

Wonder. why Richard Cetrone didn't return as Headless this season?

IMDB confirms he's filming as stunt double for Ben Affleck.

There are 2 actors for the Horseman though, right? There's the one without a head when interacting with other character and on horseback, and there's NJ for Abraham.

Edited November 23, 2014 by fantique

[RiddleyWalker]

You know, I really loved the way they used the Stones' "Sympathy for the Devil" in the Pilot and Finale last year. I REALLY wish they would use some other classic rock songs as an exclamation point in particularly awesome episodes. I'd love to see them use Pink Floyd's "Wish You Were Here" with these lyrics:

 

So, so you think you can tell Heaven from Hell, blue skies from pain.

Can you tell a green field from a cold steel rail?

A smile from a veil?
Do you think you can tell?

Did they get you to trade your heroes for ghosts?
Hot ashes for trees?
Hot air for a cool breeze?
Cold comfort for change?
Did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage?

How I wish, how I wish you were here.
We're just two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl, year after year,
Running over the same old ground.
What have we found?
The same old fears.
Wish you were here.

 

…at some point. (My favorite Pink Floyd song BTW)

 

I guess my point is that I'd love some more music on the show.

Edited November 23, 2014 by RiddleyWalker

[phoenics]

I don't know if it's true, but I read a post somewhere that said he's the double in the bat suit for the new movie. If that's true, I could see that interfering with his appearing here. Good for him, but it's a loss for SH for sure. He had great physicality and presence.

Someone mentioned a while back that the show is too focused now on characters from the past. The more I think about it, the more I agree. I rewatched the first couple episodes recently and was struck by the difference in tone. The pilot, in particular, feels much more urban fantasy where everything is grounded in the modern day with a busy police department and glimpses of the city. Crane is clearly the fish out of water. The contrast is striking. There are so many people from the past now with Ichabod, Katrina, Abraham, and even Henry (though he's more modern as well), that a lot of that contrast has been lost. Worse, it makes Crane feel less special. Plus, I think there are a lot of viewers who don't normally watch fantasy shows who are willing to watch what's basically a buddy cop procedural peppered with a whole bunch of crazy, but are less willing to suffer through misty, harlequin novel whispering hocus pocus. Man, I miss season one.

 

That was me!! :)  Though I'm sure someone else has mentioned it too... 

 

Katia Winter recently said in an interview that she was looking forward to playing Katrina reacting to present day stuff and I thought - wow - so you wanna be another Ichabod Crane?  That just sucks all of the special right out of Ichabod... and it sucks a lot of the magic of the show right out with it.  It turns into Days of our Cranes or As the Cranes Bore.  I mean - just think of how awful that Bachelor scene was with both of them... horrid!  

 

Plus it ignores that the story isn't about Crane just reacting to the world - half of the equation is ABBIE (and the rest of Sleepy Hollow) reacting to HIM.  Because Abbie represents US!  When you throw Katrina in there - and Henry - and Abraham - well now Ichabod is just another dude from the past... and he's brought his whole posse with him!  So now I have no sympathy for Crane anymore because now when he whines about present day, it just feels like he's nitpicking just to nitpick rather than really being a man out of time.  That makes Crane unsympathetic.

 

 I think that Crane in the first season was more special because he was the only one.  I mean - we had Headless, but he had no head and part of the fun with him was seeing the contrast and the utter SHOCK on people (from today) when they realized he had no head.  But that was it.  Everyone else from Ichabod's time was dead.  He was alone in this strange new world - tasked with saving it (along with Abbie).  What a huge burden.

 

But then they tied EVERYONE to him - the horseman of death, the horseman of war and then they brought on Katrina... and spent this season showing us Abbie as the odd person out and surrounding her with his 18th century posse.

 

No.  No no no no no!!

 

Now I finally understand what people mean when they say that Sleepy Hollow has gotten smaller - with the influx of so many characters from Ichabod's past in Sleepy Hollow and with them typically outnumbering Abbie's posse in episodes this season (her posse hasn't really been around) - Sleepy Hollow looks like it's full of 18th century folks running around.  That's crazy...

 

ETA:  Does anyone watch Forever?  It has this premise of a man who cannot die - and that alienates him from everyone.  It's what makes him "special".  The show has another person like that who is some kind of nemesis - but the nemesis existing doesn't take away from the specialness of the forever-dude... it enhances it because they aren't connected in anyway except for they both can live forever.  One is good, the other evil - with the added fear that the forever dude could end up evil like his nemesis - the idea being that living forever drives you to become criminally insane.  Sleepy Hollow shouldn't have connected SO many evil guys to Ichabod's past.  I think Abraham would have been okay if they'd kept Katrina dead.  But Henry was too much.

Edited November 23, 2014 by phoenics

[netlyon2]

 I think they still could have made both Horsemen being tied to Ichabod and Katrina work, as long as they didn't make both Horsemen all about Ichabod and Katrina.  I recently re-watched "Necromancer," an episode that I quite enjoyed but also recognize as the beginning of Ichabod moving from slightly priggish to full-on jerk.  We see both original-recipe Headless (*miss you, boo!*) and headed Abraham, and both of them have reasons to be compelling.  For me, what's interesting about Abraham is that he was offered the Horseman post while he was dying and full of hatred.  Does he regret it as a hasty decision or is he locked into the overwhelming hatred of that moment?  The episode made it pretty clear that he didn't really love Katrina; he didn't really know her and was more embarrassed than anything else.  If they told me the story of someone who was driven by hatred and anger, I would totally buy it; however, that doesn't make it about how Katrina is an "enchantress."  Instead, they try to tell me that this raging Headless Hulk became the Horseman of Death, has killed countless people, and defied the orders of Moloch for the chance to . . . try and romance Katrina into becoming evil?  With unwavering emo-devotion and delicious quince tea?  When there is a spell to get it done quickly and effectively?  Whatever, show.

 

I was quite intrigued by the Henry revelation last season and think that it could have been executed well.  Honestly, I was always more interested in what seemed to be the growing affection between Henry and Abbie; she was definitely starting to let down her guard with him and his original connection was with her, not Ichabod.  Before the reveal, I would have called him a member of Team Witness on a level with Irving.  (And to this day, he's done more magic on the behalf of Team Witness than certain other witches.  I'm just saying.)  I think the measured buildup and then break-down of the Henry Parish identity was well-paced and well-done. 

 

Unfortunately, this season has lost that pacing mojo.  Driven by (IMO) the twin spurs of giving KW more screen time and giving JN more scenery to chew, the show has fast-tracked the "redeem my son" storyline that probably should have taken more time to develop.  Doing so, however, would have required the writers to foreground other storylines while letting that one simmer in the background.  Instead, Abbie's time in Purgatory is given a perfunctory wrap-up, Irving's storyline is tied in with Henry and then left in stasis, Jenny straight up disappears, Abraham's rage and rebellion are watered down into lovesick moping, and the outside world is relegated to occasional cameos in the unfolding of Crane Family Drama.  Even the CFD isn't really about Ichabod and his struggle; it's about the angst between Katrina and Henry, with Ichabod's feelings wavering as the plot dictates.   

 

I was glad the show got additional episodes this season; I enjoy interesting character exploration more than a constantly-twisting plot.  However, the writers seem to have squandered this additional time, at least in the first half of the season.  While I love a good arc, I think that a balance of those sidelined storylines and good MOTW episodes would have been the best thing to allow the CFD to breathe and develop without taking over the show.  One of my favorite MOTW episodes, "The Lesser Key of Solomon," is proof that the show can do them well.  Unfortunately, even this season's MOTW episodes had to be tied in to the CFD, which is contributing to the Crane Fatigue that so many of us are experiencing.

Edited November 23, 2014 by netlyon2

[HalcyonDays]

I think with the writing too, they are not able to do epic or calculating or come up with creative ways to motivate. By this, I mean that the motivations and behaviours of the characters are so flimsy and weak and totally unbelievable in my view. These guys (the writers) have weird thoughts on love and motivations and behaviours.

 

We had Andy go bad - because he was in love with Abbie but was rejected by her (she just wanted to be a friend).

 

We have Abraham who was dumped by Katrina and so upset about it (when he didn't seem too in love in the first place) becomes the Horseman of Death?? I know it was slightly against his will, but with that mentality, everyone who has a bad breakup can easily turn to the dark side. Dude - just drink a bottle of brandy and get over it.

 

We have Katrina "assisting" in the murder of Mary Wells and the husband barely blinks an eye.

 

We have Henry, who is so messed up due to being an orphan, that he's gone full out baddy. So basically is you are an orphan, you're going on a murdering spree? To defend, I would expect being buried alive would make you go insane, but there is no indication of that - just his mommy and daddy issues causing him to act out.

 

With the way the writers think motivates people, the entire world should be full of evil people. The motivations are just weak to me, I guess. Life sucks for a lot of us - but the last time I checked, I didn't sell my soul to Moloch and go out on a killing spree.

 

phoenics: I watch Forever too - really good show, fluffy and fun. Yeah, lots of similarities with Crane and Henry. And I DO NOT want to see Katrina experiencing the modern world. Not interested.

[DeLurker]

We had Andy go bad - because he was in love with Abbie but was rejected by her (she just wanted to be a friend).

How did I miss that? When was this disclosed? I am so confused (Vinnie Barbarino voice)!

Eta: if you don't spell quote right, the quote function does not work.

Edited November 23, 2014 by DeLurker