S02.E03: Lust in Translation

[Cranberry]

Sexy Brazilians arrive at school; Karma tries to get Amy to fall for someone else.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXH0SzARAcc

[dohe]

As a man walks up to Amy, it is evident she is sexually attracted to him.  So much so that she calls first in front of Karma.  If not for a fear of heights, who knows how it would have ended.  When Karma wonders about Amy's sexuality, Amy gives a speech.  There are two ways to come at it.  One is that Amy is bisexual and considering she had sex with Liam and shows sexual desire for a man in this episode, that would be a fair assessment.  It doesn't quite fit what was shown before the last 20 seconds of last season's finale but it does fit the sort of retcon that seemed to arrive in that moment.  Two is that Amy is the typical tv lesbian in which, for all their desire of women, seems to involve a desire to make out to men. 

 

Compare this to Shane.  Shane kisses Karma and then expresses how there is nothing.  To him this test only further confirms he is gay just as Liam is presented as 100% straight.  It is Amy, the bisexual or the tv representation of a lesbian (which aren't all that different), who desires both. 

 

If Amy continues to be the lesbian who gets turned on by men, Liam is portrayed as a man whose focus is guilt over sleeping with Amy.  While Amy continues to be shown as a deceptive liar, Liam is shown as the rightful person for Karma.  He wants to tell the truth, something he conveys in pouts.

 

The show has two major intents at this time it seems.  One is to coax the audience into loving Liam and seeing that the straight couple should be.  The other is to remind the audience that Amy, as with most tv lesbians, likes men here and there too.

 

As for Lauren, the one character that continues to be watchable, she has a possible romantic interest.  The only concern is the patronizing way he spoke to her tonight.  Not cute.

Edited October 8, 2014 by dohe

[ybrik]

Yeah not seeing the whole Liam is in the right for wanting to tell the truth. If anything it seems the opposite. What is Liam's reason for wanting to tell the truth? He can't handle the guilt. On the other hand both Lauren and Amy want to keep the secret because it would hurt Karma.

 

Also I don't think the show is really trying to set Liam and Karma as the endgame couple at least not at this time. If anything it is setting them up to get back together only for the secret to come out. This will also be at the same time when Karma and Amy seem to finally get their friendship back to the place before everything from S1. Basically it will be Karma's ideal fantasy only for it blow up in her face.

 

Karma is officially the worst wingman ever. But it is typical Karma going over the top. Of course also like most things with Karma even when her plans succeed she doesn't seem happy about it. Interesting reactions she had to both Amy confession about being attracted to guys even though in love with her and also her reaction to the kiss.

 

Keep going back and forth on Shane. One week I like the character the next he annoys. This week he annoyed. Him telling Karma that she didn't deny being a lesbian would have worked more except he outed them even after Amy denied it to him. It just seems hypocritical for him to be upset at Karma for going along with what he set in motion to be popular when he was using them to go after Lauren.

 

Liking Lauren and Theo so far.

[Cranberry]

I've found that the show is making Liam look like an idiot most of the time -- that is, when he's not being a total drag. I'm not complaining!

[mjgchick]

Maybe it's me but I don't think Amy is bisexual. She's confused on her sexuality but it is clear as day the only person she wants is Karma. I think she'll likely find another girl she'll have feelings for. I don't see the show ever giving Amy another male love interests. Karma yes but Amy not so much. But I do hate how the show is painting Liam by having guilt and Amy is just ok with having Karma back in her life but maybe Carter and Co will shock us by having Karma be pissed at Liam for sleeping with Amy and will be disappointed in Amy for not telling her in the first place but is willing to still be her friend. This whole drama is clearly more about the impact of Amy and Karma's relationship than Liam and Karma's relationship.

 

Yeah Liam is either an ass, a moron or whatever he was in S1 trying to hook up with a girl just because she was a lesbian. Amy is still the protagonist of the series so I'm not even worried on how they are writing her. I have problems with how they write Karma to be honest.

 

I love it when Lauren smiles. Bailey's face lights up the room as much as Rita's does. lol Also Katie speaking in Portuguese was hot and I can't wait to see more Lauren and new guy who is hotter than Liam to me.

Edited October 8, 2014 by mjgchick

[beetlesoda]

I feel there lies the problem. I feel the show is trying so hard to make Liam this poor guy who just wants to do the right think I can't stand it. I feel everyone else has flaws that aren't automatically noticed and corrected like Liam does his flaws, I like everyone else so much better. I like season one Amy so much better than I like season two Amy and I do agree with Liam that they should tell Karma but I can't help but roll my eyes every time he pouts but somehow when it comes to Amy I'm not too bothered by her keeping it a secret because seeing her with Karma you can see why she doesn't want to tell. I almost forgot about the huge secret until Liam brought it up tonight.

 

I'm a little confused by Amy's sexual hulk comment, but does this mean she's knows she's bi? It didn't take her very long to come to that conclusion, I still feel there's more revelations to come.

 

Seeing Amy with another girl was kinda refreshing, just wish she spoke english lol. I don't care about your sad little look Karma, let the girl move on.

 

Lauren makes this show! And I like Shane, though he should be a bit nicer to Karma cause she's not the only one who started this mess

[mjgchick]

 

Lauren makes this show! And I like Shane, though he should be a bit nicer to Karma cause she's not the only one who started this mess

Yeah I was a bit put off on how he can be so upset with Karma when he outed her. Even if she was faking it he still outed Amy whom he loves.

His stanning for Liam is so cringe worthy because shouldn't he be angry at Liam for chasing after Karma just because he thought she was a lesbian? Liam is just as in the wrong as Karma was for faking it.

[galax-arena]

I feel the show is trying so hard to make Liam this poor guy who just wants to do the right think I can't stand it.

Yeah, they really want to make him out to be some sort of poor rich misunderstood woobie, and I just. don't. care. It's amazing how I started out thinking Gregg Sulkin was cute, but on this show, it's like Liam has one of the most punchable faces I've ever seen. 

[CaliforniaLove]

Crazy antics aside, I think this show is đealing with Amy's particular journey in a somewhat realistic way. I didn't see her attraction to the random guy from Brazil to be anything other than an appreciation for a good looking dude. I'm as gay as the day is long & I'd have looked at that dude in a similar "halos appearing over his head" way. BUT...the "Twilight Saga: Karma & Liam" needs to be put on the back burner behind Amy, Lauren & Shane ' s stories. JMO

[Izeinwinter]

I'm not sure why the heck the show keeps thinking more focus on Liam is a good idea. I mean, for season 1, I can see why the writers would think he would go over well. There are just a tonne of characters out there astonishingly like him with huge fanbases defending them past all reason, and by the time it became obvious that fandom reaction was "Hottie Doucheface", season one was in the can. But.. ehr.. why are they doubling down? 

[Cranberry]

I don't know if they are, though. I mean, what has Liam done lately besides sulk at Shane for keeping Amy's secret, pine after Karma, and whine about how he wants to tell the truth? Add in little things like him being too dumb to realize that his new friend was joking about his dad being a veterinarian or paediatrician and him symbolically squirting sunscreen all over those two girls this episode, and he looks like the stereotypical dumb pretty boy to me. Meanwhile, every episode is ending with Amy and Karma having fun and getting along well as they navigate this new relationship.

I know from the promos that he and Karma will kiss again, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they're well-suited or endgame. I don't think that "Karmy" necessarily is, either, but the show is still young. There's lots of time for both girls to meet new awesome people.

[JaM]

Plus, no matter what, once secret is out, Liam will take the main blame i guess..  if you were in Karma's place, who would you forgive?

[superman1204]

This might just be wishful thinking, but I think everything Liam has done so far this season is meant to remind us that the Amy/Liam secret is coming out, instead of making us feel bad for Liam.  I really don't see how anyone could have a reaction to Liam's moping other than "No one cares!" or "Fuck he's going to screw everything up."  Also if the show was trying to build up Liam or a Liam/Karma reunion, shouldn't Karma and Liam have some form of interaction that isn't weird and uncomfortable?  Instead we have a bunch of scenes of  Liam sulking and a bunch of scenes of Amy and Karma rebuilding their friendship and being cute together.  I think what the show wants us to root for Karma and Amy to work through their issues and has Liam moping in the background to remind us that there are more issues for Karma and Amy ahead.

[galax-arena]

I really don't see how anyone could have a reaction to Liam's moping other than "No one cares!" or "Fuck he's going to screw everything up."

It's the way TPTB have talked about it in interviews that make me think I'm supposed to give a flying fuck about Liam. Like there was one interview where the showrunner said we'd find out more about Liam's ~awful family which would explain why he hates keeping secrets. You generally don't really delve into a character's background like that unless you want to humanize them and have us care about them on some level. 

[Misty79]

Crazy antics aside, I think this show is đealing with Amy's particular journey in a somewhat realistic way. I didn't see her attraction to the random guy from Brazil to be anything other than an appreciation for a good looking dude. I'm as gay as the day is long & I'd have looked at that dude in a similar "halos appearing over his head" way. BUT...the "Twilight Saga: Karma & Liam" needs to be put on the back burner behind Amy, Lauren & Shane ' s stories. JMO

 

Really? For me Amy's reactions were strange. Up until this point it felt like the writers had been building her up as someone who is all about PBA (person based attraction)...she gets to know someone and that is how she falls for them, irrespective of gender.

 

But in this episode she immediately feels lust for both a girl and a guy on basis of his physical appearance, which would imply she is a classic bisexual. Yet when quizzed about her lust for the guy she tells Karma that "sometimes my body reacts to guys even though my head doesn't want it to, it's like I'm a sexual Hulk". That's not the sort of thing you say as a bisexual, you own that you are attracted to both, even if it's initially confusing. So she's a lesbian, right? Except to me it doesn't seem right that a lesbian would feel the outright lust depicted by Amy. It's normal to be confused, but usually it's an absence of lust for the opposite sex that clues you in, no? So her line should be "sometimes my head reacts to a cute guy because I'm conditioned to, even though my body doesn't want it". It's possible to acknowledge a guy is attractive, but the outright lust of Amy's reaction was OTT for most lesbians IMO. So her statement sounded more like a confused bisexual trying to convince herself she is a lesbian...

 

I can accept that everyone's path is unique, however. I just find it baffling. It's not your classic girl struggles with attraction to both sexes or girl realizes she's into girls story.

 

I don't trust that they aren't just getting it wrong. I don't think the writers understand gay women at all TBH. And their racial stereotyping in this episode (the Brazilians) was borderline offensive. 

 

As for Liam, the martyrdom continues. The only way to save that story-line is to have Liam's motivations for exposing the Amy sex to Karma to be jealous desire to end their friendship rather than out of some misguided sense of honor. 

[JaM]

Liam doesn't matter from long run. Once new girl is in the picture, whole Karma/Amy mechanics will change.. It is not that far from now.. Question is, when exactly their secret comes out for biggest impact..

[gesundheit]

But in this episode she immediately feels lust for both a girl and a guy on basis of his physical appearance, which would imply she is a classic bisexual. Yet when quizzed about her lust for the guy she tells Karma that "sometimes my body reacts to guys even though my head doesn't want it to, it's like I'm a sexual Hulk". That's not the sort of thing you say as a bisexual, you own that you are attracted to both, even if it's initially confusing. So she's a lesbian, right? Except to me it doesn't seem right that a lesbian would feel the outright lust depicted by Amy. It's normal to be confused, but usually it's an absence of lust for the opposite sex that clues you in, no? So her line should be "sometimes my head reacts to a cute guy because I'm conditioned to, even though my body doesn't want it". It's possible to acknowledge a guy is attractive, but the outright lust of Amy's reaction was OTT for most lesbians IMO. So her statement sounded more like a confused bisexual trying to convince herself she is a lesbian...

I completely agree. And it's fine if the show decides to make her bisexual, but there's that whole complication of the showrunner telling us something different. Which is a little unfair in that it makes it impossible just to let the story play out because we're imposing something else on it, but that line really struck me as off. If it's her brain telling her not to be attracted to men but she just is, naturally, then it doesn't really compute.

 

I mean I still appreciate a good-looking man, but in the way that anything pretty is fun to look at. My body certainly doesn't react. And I spent enough time trying to convince myself otherwise that a line like that, though brief and probably ultimately insignificant, felt really tone-deaf to me.

 

Also, were all those Brazilian students supposed to be from a 25-and-up modeling school?

 

I don't mind Shane being annoyed with Karma. She told a lot of lies to two of his favorite people and he's just angry that people he loved got hurt. He also doesn't understand what's so great about her, so I can certainly identify with him!

[Misty79]

I mean I still appreciate a good-looking man, but in the way that anything pretty is fun to look at. My body certainly doesn't react. And I spent enough time trying to convince myself otherwise that a line like that, though brief and probably ultimately insignificant, felt really tone-deaf to me.

 

Exactly. Maybe it's Carter struggling to put himself into a girl's perspective in this situation, I don't know. Tone deaf is a great description of it. It just felt so off to me, that line.

 

Also, were all those Brazilian students supposed to be from a 25-and-up modeling school?

 

The Brazilian guy Shane was crushing on looked so old with that receding hairline, it totally took me out of the moment! 

[Cranberry]

Yeah, I didn't really understand that comment from Amy, either. I do have friends who identify as lesbians but consider themselves homoromantic but bisexual (meaning they could have sex with a guy or a girl, but can only fall in love with a woman), so it made sense to me in that way. It just seems to go against Amy's season one characterization, where she was attracted to Oliver's personality (and looks) but felt nothing when she kissed him. Maybe we're just supposed to take it as her still being really confused. I do believe that she will eventually identify as a lesbian.

[CaliforniaLove]

I saw Amy's physical reaction to a guy to be realistic. This is so cliche, but the hardest person to come out to is yourself. Amy has been in a "Karma cloud" for a while, and to me, it's very easy to chalk it up to a natural progression in an already intimate relationship. The Oliver thing happened in the midst of that "cloud", so to Amy, it's irrelevant to base anything off her reaction to that situation. Now that she knows where Karma stands, her true journey to figuring out where she stands on the sexual spectrum can begin, and that is probably scarier than falling for your closest confidante. Resting on "he's hot!" Is probably more of a "defense mechanism" than anything else. Even if that dude hadn't been carted off in an ambulance, I still think Amy's night would have ended with her making out with "hot Brazilian girl".

As far as what happened with Liam? I could get with a guy...if I was completely hammered. Bravo to Carter for at least getting THAT right. ;-)

[Cranberry]

I did enjoy how casual Amy was about making out with the girl! Last season she was terrified to go on a date with a girl. Even if she's not ready to get over Karma yet, this is progress.

[Latverian Diplomat]

.Also, were all those Brazilian students supposed to be from a 25-and-up modeling school?

 

I think it was an attempt to make the regular cast look more like high school sophomores in comparison. Kind of like the camera and set construction tricks in LoTR to make the hobbit actors look even shorter than they really are. :-)

[dohe]

I completely agree. And it's fine if the show decides to make her bisexual, but there's that whole complication of the showrunner telling us something different. Which is a little unfair in that it makes it impossible just to let the story play out because we're imposing something else on it, but that line really struck me as off. If it's her brain telling her not to be attracted to men but she just is, naturally, then it doesn't really compute.

 

I mean I still appreciate a good-looking man, but in the way that anything pretty is fun to look at. My body certainly doesn't react. And I spent enough time trying to convince myself otherwise that a line like that, though brief and probably ultimately insignificant, felt really tone-deaf to me.

 

Also, were all those Brazilian students supposed to be from a 25-and-up modeling school?

 

I don't mind Shane being annoyed with Karma. She told a lot of lies to two of his favorite people and he's just angry that people he loved got hurt. He also doesn't understand what's so great about her, so I can certainly identify with him!

Yep.  Being gay doesn't make me blind to thinking a woman is good looking.  I doubt women being straight makes them blind to thinking a woman is good looking or being a lesbian makes them blind to thinking a man is good looking or a man being straight makes them blind to thinking a man is good looking (thought straight men I know love to act like they don't). 

 

But there is zero sexual interest when it comes to women.  There is nothing there.  My body nor my heart thinks I would love to be with a woman.  At first, I thought that Oliver was an example of how Amy is a lesbian.  But nope.  They had her have sex with Liam because her body wanted him (something Carter admitted in an interview today) and she wanted that guy last night.  Which means she is either a bisexual or a typical tv representation of a lesbian. 

[Misty79]

Yep, based on that interview you posted in the media thread Carter makes it very clear that in this episode Amy's body wants men. That's why she slept with Liam, apparently. So she is definitely not a lesbian, she's bisexual (perhaps a homo-romantic bisexual, as someone suggested up-thread).

 

Which I'm fine with, as long as they are consistent with that. 

[dohe]

Mistry79, the problem is they aren't consistent.  The show seemed to say, with Oliver, that while she may find the personality attractive, her body doesn't respond to men.  Then they had her have sex with Liam and acted as if it was this one off episode which came out of anger.  Now they are saying her body desires men. 

 

I think she is the "TV lesbian".  Television seems to have some deep difficulty with presenting lesbians who don't want to make out with or have sex with men at some point.  It just seems beyond television.  I would call her bisexual but I really think that Carter might think this is an actual representation of a lesbian.  I know it sounds crazy but I bet he believes this.

Edited October 9, 2014 by dohe

[Misty79]

Mistry79, the problem is they aren't consistent.  The show seemed to say, with Oliver, that while she may find the personality attractive, her body doesn't respond to men.  Then they had her have sex with Liam and acted as if it was this one off episode which came out of anger.  Now they are saying her body desires men. 

 

I think she is the "TV lesbian".  Television seems to have some deep difficulty with presenting lesbians who don't want to make out with or have sex with men at some point.  It just seems beyond television.  I would call her bisexual but I really think that Carter might think this is an actual representation of a lesbian.  I know it sounds crazy but I bet he believes this.

 

I really hope you're wrong but tend to agree. I think they're going for "confused" generally but I don't get the feeling there is any proper understanding of how it really feels to be a sexually confused young woman  (or young man, for that matter). Amy's interactions with Oliver made sense for a lesbian, but her body wanting Liam and the Brazilian guy clearly doesn't. If Amy comes to terms with her sexuality later in this series and starts labeling herself as a lesbian that's going to upset a lot of people, because it's pretty nonsensical based on her reactions to men. As you say only a "TV lesbian" would feel consistent (or any) man lust. Otherwise we have a bisexual.  

 

I think the writers are just plain muddled. At least i hope that's why they're getting it so wrong, rather than deliberately writing a lesbian that wants to **** men. 

Edited October 9, 2014 by Misty79

[possibilities]

The people making this show are the ones who are confused. It's damn annoying, too. I hope they get the intersex stuff right, because they sure don't know what the hell they are doing writing a "lesbian." If they wanted to write about a bi character, they could have done it and it would have been fine. But they are going out of the way to make no sense, which I think means they are genuinely confused themselves. It's inexcusable, though. It's not like they're teens themselves. They ought to be able to work it out, but they're perfectly content with their confusion.

[tobia]

Amy could always be a homoromantic bisexual (sexually attracted to men and women but only romantically attracted to women). It'd be an interesting--and rare--topic for the show to explore.

[dohe]

I think the showrunners are just unsure of what kind of audience they want. It could also be that while the show runners have a clear idea of what they want, other factors are seeping in, network maybe? But I agree that they have no idea what they are doing. 

Could very well be.  Some interference would make sense to explain this utter mess.  It is as if, for Amy, they are just throwing things at the board and seeing what sticks.  It is one of the craziest things I have ever seen. 

[superman1204]

So on a note other than Amy's sexuality...

 

Was I the only one who thought Lauren's anti-immigration carnival felt a little too mean spirited, particularly after her intersex reveal?  Don't get me wrong, I'm happy that they have kept Lauren's personality the same (she's probably my favorite part of the show at this point) and the last thing I wanted the writers to do is make her into a overly sympathetic character.  I loved her being bitchy at the sleepover with Amy and Karma.  It's just she started to hate the Brazilian students because she couldn't get a salad at lunch, and then spent the rest of the episode being xenophobic.  It just felt like something Cartman (from South Park) or some other intentionally horrible character would do.  Cleary we are meant to care about Lauren, but general characters who are borderline racist don't get much audience sympathy.

[Lady Calypso]

Ok, so having now watched this episode, I can say that I'm as confused as Amy is on her sexuality. I get the impression that Carter and co are confused too as to what to make Amy. The whole 'being attracted to that Brazilian guy' is throwing me off. I'm not sure whether Carter is implying that Amy's still discovering herself and she might be more bisexual than a lesbian or he's trying to say she's in the middle of the Kinsey scale, but I'm trying to figure this out and I can't. Everyone has different experiences, I get that. I'm not quite one to talk because I'm straight but I'm also asexual, so I know how confusing sexuality can be. I'm not sure if Amy really wanted to have sex with the Brazilian guy or if she was just attracted to him, because if that's the case, she can still be more of a lesbian but just able to feel some sort of attraction to guys without wanting to have sex with them. But I haven't read that Carter interview so if it's right that he's saying that Amy wanted to have sex with Liam, then I give up on trying to figure this out. I could buy that Amy was hurt, angry and only had sex with Liam because she was too drunk to care and he just happened to be there. I may not like it, but I could buy it. But if Amy did want to have sex with him, then I'm more than done with this storyline. I understand why many of you would be upset and I am too.

 

Again, I wish I could hate Liam just as much as you guys but I really don't. He's my least favourite character, yes, but he's in no way the worst person I've seen on TV. I'm actually more annoyed at Shane, who not only keeps encouraging Liam to be with Karma (understandably as Shane clearly hates Karma) but also that he is not calling Liam out on his shit, or trying to do anything about Liam's behaviour. They're supposed to be best friends, yet whenever Liam tries to call himself out on his actions, Shane dismisses it and actually encourages it more! He's trying to be a great friend, but he's not doing a great job. So Shane calling out Karma, although understandable, is also a bit hypocritical. But I also understand because he's also a teenage boy, who's going to make stupid mistakes like everyone else on this show and he's biased toward Karma, as she hurt his two best friends. And Shane's been doing this since last season too, so it's not abnormal behaviour for him. 

 

Lauren/Theo could be a very cute couple and I love seeing Lauren smile. It's also great to see Amy becoming more comfortable with her sexuality, even if she's still figuring it out, and seeing Karma happy (and then jealous?) of Amy trying to move on. But Karma, you can't be Amy's wingman to move on from you!! It's awkward!! It's like asking Liam to be Karma's wingman!