S04.E08-E09: A Very Arondekar Christmas Parts 1&2

[Annber03]

1 hour ago, PaulE said:

Plus he wasn't used to all the technology--even starting the car was guesswork for him because he'd have been used to the old key-in-the-ignition routine.

Yeah, I really liked that detail, too. It's  like when they were all freaking out when Hetty tried to drive away when possessing Jay. I love when they highlight just how much of modern society these ghosts have no experience with/have missed out on/aren't used to. 

[iMonrey]

Just re-watched, and boy Utkarsh really nailed Pete's very distinctive walk, which I don't think I've ever clocked before seeing him do it. It's a stiff, almost childlike way of walking. Hilarious. 

4 hours ago, Chit Chat said:

Sam has outright lied to him claiming that the ghosts said something they didn't.  I don't like that aspect of the dynamic between the ghosts, Sam & Jay.  She takes advantage of it at his expense time and time again.   

Well, sure but that's where half the humor comes from. I know I keep going back to this, but what if Darrin was suddenly immune to Endora's witchcraft? Or if Tony was immune to Jeannie's magic? (And I get that some of you might be too young to remember those shows.) 

I think it's funny we're all taking sides for Team Sam or Team Jay but it doesn't have to be that way. There's a built-in dynamic here that's just the basis of the concept. 

And really, how much is Jay being hurt by the ghosts tattling on his trips to Sonic? I loved when Isaac commented on Jay being called out for his secret trips to Sonic and Jay turned around and said "I can hear you now!" and Isaac went "Dammit this is so confusing." He's used to Jay not hearing what he says. Now THAT'S funny.

Edited Saturday at 04:32 AM by iMonrey

[kathyk2]

5 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Just re-watched, and boy Utkarsh really nailed Pete's very distinctive walk, which I don't think I've ever clocked before seeing him do it. It's a stiff, almost childlike way of walking. Hilarious. 

Well, sure but that's where half the humor comes from. I know I keep going back to this, but what if Darrin was suddenly immune to Endora's witchcraft? Or if Tony was immune to Jeannie's magic? (And I get that some of you might be too young to remember those shows.) 

I think it's funny we're all taking sides for Team Sam or Team Jay but it doesn't have to be that way. There's a built-in dynamic here that's just the basis of the concept. 

And really, how much is Jay being hurt by the ghosts tattling on his trips to Sonic? I loved when Isaac commented on Jay being called out for his secret trips to Sonic and Jay turned around and said "I can hear you now!" and Isaac went "Dammit this is so confusing." He's used to Jay not hearing what he says. Now THAT'S funny.

Jay isn't hurt by his trips to Sonic but Sam is. It would have been funny if Darren was immune to Endora because she used witchcraft as a weapon and she couldn't hurt him anymore.

[kathyk2]

1 hour ago, Chit Chat said:

But he can't use the ghosts to his advantage like she can.  I'm sure Sam knows or suspects (before the ghosts tell her) that he goes to Sonic whenever he's out, but let's him have his little secret.  

I like Flower, but she's so ditzy being stoned all of the time.  To her, sleeping with everyone is the norm, so she can't see outside of that.  Didn't one of the ghosts one say that for male ghosts, they can have sex, but they don't finish?  It must be okay for them since Thor & Flower are hooking up, but if it's going to be a first-time thing for Sass, it might be a bit of a letdown.   I'm thinking too much about this.  Gah!!  😜

The ghosts are capable of making Sam's life miserable like that scene in Dinner Party when the ghosts were acting up and only Sam heard them. Alberta woke Sam up in the middle of night in A Star is Dead Jey slept through it. 

[Skooma]

5 hours ago, Chit Chat said:

Sam has outright lied to him claiming that the ghosts said something they didn't.  I don't like that aspect of the dynamic between the ghosts, Sam & Jay.  She takes advantage of it at his expense time and time again.   

And Trevor (writing on steam on the bathroom mirror) let Jay know that Sam was lying about Pete not wanting to play D&D with him any more.

Jay isn't put upon at all.  Sam isn't some evil person on a power trip because of her ghost connections. If anything she has to deal with constant demands and emotional drama from the ghosts all the time while Jay gets to avoid all that.  Everybody, both alive and dead, are doing just fine in Woodstone Manorland.

3 hours ago, shura said:

It’s a distinction without much difference, but it was less than 500 years with no one else to talk to.  Even in these difficult times we must be precise 😜.  Isaac showed up “only” about 260 years later, and Patience around 1700, so about 190 years after Sass died (but Patience is Patience, of course, so we are not going to count her, necessarily).

They have also mentioned in quick passing at times that there were other ghosts in the past that were sucked off.  No details or dates, just quick mentions leaving the door wide open for the writers to use in the future if they so choose.

Also thanks to Wikipedia:  The Puritans (Plymouth Colony) goes back as far as 1620 (the founding) and their hey day didn't last much past the 1670's, were pretty much done as a self-ruling entity by the 1680's and kind of officially incorporated into the secular colony of Massachusetts in 1691.  So Patience would have been kicked out of there even earlier than 1700 historically speaking.

Edited Saturday at 05:33 AM by Skooma

[shura]

6 hours ago, Skooma said:

They have also mentioned in quick passing at times that there were other ghosts in the past that were sucked off.  No details or dates, just quick mentions leaving the door wide open for the writers to use in the future if they so choose.

Also thanks to Wikipedia:  The Puritans (Plymouth Colony) goes back as far as 1620 (the founding) and their hey day didn't last much past the 1670's, were pretty much done as a self-ruling entity by the 1680's and kind of officially incorporated into the secular colony of Massachusetts in 1691.  So Patience would have been kicked out of there even earlier than 1700 historically speaking.

1692 is when Patience got the boot, they had the date on the screen during her hearing.  I figured she wandered around for a couple years after that, so yes, probably a few years before 1700.

I agree, they can always say there were other ghosts there in the past that just have not been mentioned yet.  I was trying to find if there is any info on when Flat Maria was there (trampled by a herd of cattle - buffalo? Or domestic cattle? In upstate New York? When would that have been?) and apparently there has been another former ghost mentioned, someone named Luella, who had also been Thor’s girlfriend before she got sucked off.  I had no recollection of that.  And what it means is that now is probably not even the first time Sass has felt that his best friend is abandoning him for a girlfriend.

“Just to be clear, there is no moose carcass. Was just making gesture. But there is a flattened bird on the road.” - “Yeah, I could check it out.”  Ahh, small pleasures…

[ams1001]

1 hour ago, shura said:

I agree, they can always say there were other ghosts there in the past that just have not been mentioned yet.  I was trying to find if there is any info on when Flat Maria was there (trampled by a herd of cattle - buffalo? Or domestic cattle? In upstate New York? When would that have been?) 

There were bison* on the east coast from Florida to NY; from what I found from a fairly brief googling it looks like they were mostly gone from this part of the country by the late 1700s/early 1800s.

*Bison, not buffalo. They are similar, but different animals. The humped, furry animal roaming the Great Plains most of us are probably picturing is a bison. Oh, hey, there's actually a bison emoji! 🦬

[Chit Chat]

Quote

Sam isn't some evil person on a power trip because of her ghost connections.

Respectfully, I never said she was evil.  She has an advantage that Jay doesn't have.  At least now Jay will fully understand the burden that it is to have ghosts always talking to you!  I think he wouldn't mind being able to play D&D with Pete, but he'd have to put a limit to their demands (like Rose did early on). 

[Bastet]

21 hours ago, Chit Chat said:

I still think she's shallow.  Yay for her that she enjoys sex.  I didn't like how she made it her mission to try and get Sass laid.  Not her place, at all.

Not her place, absolutely not.  But I don't see how her feelings about sex in general make her shallow; that seems to imply sex is something superficial to value.

Edited Saturday at 10:53 PM by Bastet

[kathyk2]

6 hours ago, Chit Chat said:

Respectfully, I never said she was evil.  She has an advantage that Jay doesn't have.  At least now Jay will fully understand the burden that it is to have ghosts always talking to you!  I think he wouldn't mind being able to play D&D with Pete, but he'd have to put a limit to their demands (like Rose did early on). 

The ghosts take advantage of Sam more often than she takes advantage of them. I'm sure many people think she's crazy thanks to the ghosts. Laura must have thought it was weird to see Sam at her home although it was sweet for Pete.

[Bastet]

19 hours ago, Chit Chat said:

Didn't one of the ghosts one say that for male ghosts, they can have sex, but they don't finish?

It was Sass, and it was way back during the first mention of ghost sex (and he did not specify just the male ghosts).  They seem to have dropped that idea since.

[Annber03]

13 minutes ago, Bastet said:

It was Sass, and it was way back during the first mention of ghost sex (and he did not specify just the male ghosts).  They seem to have dropped that idea since.

People have also theorized he could've been messing with her by saying that, or he might've taken his own issues around sex and assumed it was the case for the others as well, or things of that sort. There's been all sorts of takes on why he said that back in season one, and I do wonder if the show will call back to that and explain that answer at some point through this storyline with him. The show does like to touch on and address things that the fandom has speculated and theorized about, so...

[ofmd]

Well, that was a fun two-parter!

Bela is a hoot. I'd like to see her back more often.

[Chit Chat]

29 minutes ago, Bastet said:

But I don't see how her feelings about sex in general make her shallow; that seems to imply sex is something superficial to value.

She's shallow in general.  When she can remember things, it's mostly about the cult and all of the people she slept with.  We got a glimpse into her life before the cult, and that was nice.  She walks around in a fog most of the time.  At least she's a sweet person/ghost and means well. 

Hopefully she'll let it go about Sass.  It's an insult to him to try to hook him up with someone just for the sake of having sex.  I think Sass would prefer that it be a little more meaningful than that, or at least someone he's attracted to!  Apparently, Flower would sleep with anyone.  That part of her storyline has grown old for me. I'd like to learn something else about her for a change.

[Orbert]

To Flower, sex is something enjoyable to be shared with people.  Hearing that someone has never had sex would be like "What, you've never had chocolate?" or "What, you've never tried alcohol?" or even "What, you've never played Frisbee?"  First thing she thinks is that they must try it, and she feels it's really important since it's something that she personally likes a lot.  Everyone should get to experience it, or at least try it.  So she kinda went on a mission to make it happen.  But there was no judgement, and while we might think she was out of line for pushing so hard to get Sass laid, she just wanted him to get to do something that she and everyone else seems to like.

[shapeshifter]

31 minutes ago, Orbert said:

To Flower, sex is something enjoyable to be shared with people.  Hearing that someone has never had sex would be like "What, you've never had chocolate?" or "What, you've never tried alcohol?" or even "What, you've never played Frisbee?"  First thing she thinks is that they must try it, and she feels it's really important since it's something that she personally likes a lot.  Everyone should get to experience it, or at least try it.  So she kinda went on a mission to make it happen.  But there was no judgement, and while we might think she was out of line for pushing so hard to get Sass laid, she just wanted him to get to do something that she and everyone else seems to like.

Yes, but also, Flower died when she was still under the influence of cult teachings, if not still a cult member. I wonder if the show writers are going to revisit Flower's outlook on sex further, and maybe bring Sass into the plot too as a counterpoint. 

[amarante]

On 12/19/2024 at 7:37 PM, Chit Chat said:

I thought she was lip-syncing.  

Not negating her acting skills but that kind of mimicry is fairly basic for many actors.

This is especially true since Nancy's voice and mannerisms are so over the top I would suspect that actually actress playing Nancy is nothing like that in real life.

It is much harder to portray subtlety

I remember how odd is was when I saw Tyne Daly in a really refined part because I had been so used to her in Cagney & Lacey where she had a stereotypical Brooklyn accent and much broader physical characteristics in terms of how she walked and presented herself. 

[lh25]

On 12/20/2024 at 1:46 PM, SG429 said:

Ridin' on this real dad energy, my nit is that the tank is far too small for a house that size.

Totally agree!  It would be way to small for a private home that size, and definitely too small for a B&B with guests.

[Chit Chat]

1 hour ago, amarante said:

Not negating her acting skills but that kind of mimicry is fairly basic for many actors.

Her voice sounded just like Nancy's though!  It was uncanny!  Good job, Rose!

[Bastet]

Yeah, Thor's speech and mannerisms are exaggerated, too, but Rose didn't do anywhere near as notable a job impersonating him during Sam's first possession.  The Nancy possession, she absolutely nailed.

[PaulE]

On 12/20/2024 at 11:31 PM, iMonrey said:

On 12/20/2024 at 7:25 PM, Chit Chat said:

Sam has outright lied to him claiming that the ghosts said something they didn't.  I don't like that aspect of the dynamic between the ghosts, Sam & Jay.  She takes advantage of it at his expense time and time again.   

Well, sure but that's where half the humor comes from. I know I keep going back to this, but what if Darrin was suddenly immune to Endora's witchcraft?

I think the issue is not that Jay is exploited but, rather, the extent to which this is done.  It's interesting that you mention Darrin in "Betwitched," because I remember that, by the last season or two, just about every episode was about Endora or another of Samantha's witch relatives casting a spell on Darrin and doing mean things to him so that I didn't really find it all that funny (or even interesting) anymore.  That wasn't true in the the earlier seasons. He just became basically the defenseless tin can they all kicked around simply because they could, and he almost never was able to get the better of any of them or retaliate.  It actually made me uncomfortable, especially because there was nothing at all bad about him other than that he was a mortal.  In the case of "Ghosts," I think some of us may feel that Jay is being taken advantage of a bit too often.  A subjective point, admittedly.

As I said earlier, I wonder if the dynamics between Jay and the ghosts has been slightly altered after he was able to see them, and if so, whether this will be reflected in the stories.  For instance, it would be nice if, once in a while, the ghosts tried to help Jay solve some sort of problem or get out of a sticky situation. That kind of thing.  Now that they've been able to talk to him directly, he might be a little more "real" to them emotionally so they'll care about him more, and that could show up every now and then in the plots without doing away with the conflicts and hijinks that create the comedy.

[kathyk2]

9 hours ago, Orbert said:

To Flower, sex is something enjoyable to be shared with people.  Hearing that someone has never had sex would be like "What, you've never had chocolate?" or "What, you've never tried alcohol?" or even "What, you've never played Frisbee?"  First thing she thinks is that they must try it, and she feels it's really important since it's something that she personally likes a lot.  Everyone should get to experience it, or at least try it.  So she kinda went on a mission to make it happen.  But there was no judgement, and while we might think she was out of line for pushing so hard to get Sass laid, she just wanted him to get to do something that she and everyone else seems to like.

I think Flower needs more backstory. I'd want to know more about her fiancé and how she became a cult member.  I hope we get to meet her brother since he's been mentioned on the show. I think she's the least demanding of all the ghosts.

[PaulE]

6 hours ago, Bastet said:

Yeah, Thor's speech and mannerisms are exaggerated, too, but Rose didn't do anywhere near as notable a job impersonating him during Sam's first possession.  The Nancy possession, she absolutely nailed.

I think it was harder to imitate Thor because it's not just his speech and mannerisms but the timbre of his voice, which is too deep for most women to duplicate.  Also, more than most of the other ghosts, there's the issue of his sheer physicality--when you see Devan standing next to other actors, including the men, you realize he is one big guy.  He's a giant sequoia where everyone else is a garden-variety tree.  It's not really possible for Rose or any other actress to be able to capture that convincingly, through no fault of their own.  Even many men probably couldn't.

[Neptune]

18 | Now that Ghosts has served up four different possessions, which ghost/living combo would you like to see next? Also, TVLine reader Jo asks, “Did i miss it or did they not fix the hot water system? Like, why not have NancySam do that? Her love of it would have been a sweet silly counterpoint to Pete being able to touch his daughter.”

[Neptune]

On 12/20/2024 at 7:15 PM, kathyk2 said:

Jay lies to Sam every time he spends money without Sam's knowledge. The ghosts knew that goes to Sonic when he tells her he went to the gym. Jay bought an expensive action figure and new sneakers without telling her. I like Jay but he isn't perfect. 

Jay lives in a house full of spies. His every move monitored even in the bathroom. His dreams were his only safe private space and it turned out sass was using them to manipulate him.  Sam kept quiet after Pete warned her and used it to her advantage to win a stupid argument over the location of a tv. 
the ghosts and sam take advantage of his good nature. After Pete’s recent behaviour jay should have won the purest soul during the exorcism. Sam making jay eat the rams testicles multiple times was horrible. 
even his dream restaurant he has to share with Isaac and the threat of Thor burning it down if he doesn’t get his way. Kinda surprising Isaac agreed to let jay name it after his dad. 
Jay not seeing the ghosts is part of the formula of the show but it is turning more mean spirited the way they all treat jay.

[shapeshifter]

 

After Pete’s recent behaviour jay should have won the purest soul during the exorcism.

I’m still not sure what the writers’ intent was vis a vis this disconnect between Pete’s attitude this season and the too-pure soul rationale for the botched body unswapping. In a more carelessly written show, I’d just be annoyed. But here? I’m considering a variety of ways for that seemingly throwaway line to be revisited — mostly that Pete is going to be revealed to be, well, forgivable regarding his newly adopted tone of superiority.

But Pete has always been a bit of a know-it-all in a scout-master sort of way. But he does apologize too. 
Maybe that’s all it is, and maybe we’ll just get a line from him saying he was surprised he was still “pure enough” to not get expelled via electrical shock.

Edited 6 hours ago by shapeshifter

[Annber03]

Also, Isaac was the one who came up with the theory about why things got all borked up as they did during the exorcism, so...consider the source :p? 

[PaulE]

7 hours ago, Neptune said:

Now that Ghosts has served up four different possessions, which ghost/living combo would you like to see next?

I just thought of a completely whacky scenario:  Mark gets possessed by Nigel.  Could you imagine?  It could happen somehow when Mark is doing something at or in the shed.  Of course, Mark doesn't know about the ghosts, so he'd have no idea of what was going on, but after things were back to normal, Sam and Jay could explain.  Some of you have said you'd like Mark to know about the ghosts so this could be a way of introducing that.  I'm seeing a situation in which Nigel is at first horrified that he's in Mark's body (so undignified, and a Yankee at that!) and wants to get out as soon as possible, but then he notices one of Mark's workmen is really cute and overhears him telling a co-worker that he just broke up with his boyfriend.  Well, all of a sudden, maybe Nigel's not in such a rush after all . . .  Pretty bizarre but it could be hilarious.

[iMonrey]

8 hours ago, Neptune said:

Jay not seeing the ghosts is part of the formula of the show but it is turning more mean spirited the way they all treat jay.

I think the fact that people are so defensive about Jay speaks to Utkarsh's talent in making Jay so relatable that people feel protective about him. Or maybe just projecting themselves into the situation. But I've never seen anything mean spirited about the way the character is treated. Selfishly, sure, but not with intention to purposely hurt him. 

And yes, it's part of the formula and where a lot of the humor is mined from. Like Hetty pointing out it was time for Jay's afternoon "evacuation." I mean - that's really intrusive but . . . they're ghosts. They know everything that goes on in that house because they can't help it. It's their entire existence. And Jay knows there are ghosts everywhere. If it really bothered him that much he could move out. 

Sam and Jay could sell the house and find a house where there are no ghosts. It's possible. Alison and Mike eventually did that very thing in the UK version. But Sam and Jay don't want to leave. They like it there in spite of the ghosts, or even because of them. I guess that's why I don't really get the hand-wringing over "poor Jay." He knows exactly what's going on and seems OK with it.