S01.E09: Cast Your Fate To The Wind

[AnimeMania]

CONTROL YOUR DESTINY – When Vampires make their way into Lawrence, Carlos (JoJo Fleites) corrals the gang to find out why. Latika’s (Nida Khurshid) weeks of sorting through the Men of Letters clubhouse provides vital information when John (Drake Rodger) gets a scary glimpse into the future and enlists Millie’s (Bianca Kajlich) help with his plan. Meanwhile, Mary (Meg Donnelly) struggles with the tedious balance between feelings and action when it comes to John.

Original Air Date: January 31, 2023      9pm      CW 

[PAForrest]

This one wasn't as solid as last week's episode, but there are things I liked about it. The Back to the Future nod with mama inadvertently noticing her adult son is hot was funny. Carlos's holy water hair flip was glorious - even though I don't recall now if vamps are supposed to be affected by holy water. Makes sense they would be, I guess. And Millie is an all around awesome character, and we definitely need a lot more of her.

I started to wonder last night if the Dean who delivered the letter to John was alive at the time this is supposed to have happened, via another ItB type of time jump, and is telling the tale now that he's dead, instead of somehow coming back to earth to try and change the timeline after he's dead as I originally thought.

[tessathereaper]

2 hours ago, PAForrest said:

This one wasn't as solid as last week's episode, but there are things I liked about it. The Back to the Future nod with mama inadvertently noticing her adult son is hot was funny. Carlos's holy water hair flip was glorious - even though I don't recall now if vamps are supposed to be affected by holy water. Makes sense they would be, I guess. And Millie is an all around awesome character, and we definitely need a lot more of her.

I started to wonder last night if the Dean who delivered the letter to John was alive at the time this is supposed to have happened, via another ItB type of time jump, and is telling the tale now that he's dead, instead of somehow coming back to earth to try and change the timeline after he's dead as I originally thought.

As I recall they've never said Vamps were NOT burned by Holy Water.  So it's not outside show canon.   And it is real life vampire lore that vampires are affected by Holy Water. I think they even used it, to exaggerated effect, in the movie The Lost Boys.   So it isn't out of left field to show vampires affected by Holy Water in the SPN universe - I look at it like Dean and Sam mostly didn't have to worry about it, because they didn't even start fighting vamps until they were in their 20s they believed they were extinct.  They always had machetes and they had a vampire killing gun at least part of the time.  The holy water can slow a vamps down a little by making them uncomfortable, it won't stop them.  

I really liked this one, though at this point I have sort of triggered response to vampires(thanks Dabb).  I thought we got a lot of good character development and some interesting parallels with SPN.  I mean this is in some respect Dean's story too, so those aren't just easter eggs, they are there for a reason, part of the story, giving us clues for what's happening and why.

I also think it's an interesting shift now that John and Mary are actually together.  But I think they quite smartly established the relationship between the 4 of them BEFORE this, one of the strengths of The Winchester is that ALL the combinations of characters are interesting, they all have a dynamic, they all have a relationship, whether new or established.  It's not just well we have to keep this one busy let's stick them with this character while this 3rd character is doing this.   Even between the older adults - Millie and Ada are good together, Millie and Samuel are good together.  Samuel is good together with the kids.  Millie and Ada individually and together with the kids are good together.

One of the things it feels like is there is genuine respect for the characters as individuals.  

[Casseiopeia]

What happened to the holy water pistol? If they knew holy water worked on vampires wouldn't someone else (John) have told his sons about it? Or any other Hunter have known about it? like Elkins?

[tessathereaper]

21 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

What happened to the holy water pistol? If they knew holy water worked on vampires wouldn't someone else (John) have told his sons about it? Or any other Hunter have known about it? like Elkins?

Dean and Sam thought vampires were EXTINCT up until the end of Season 1.  There weren't actually a ton of vampires running around for quite a while, they had to take the time increase their numbers and Dean and Sam generally didn't have a ton of issues dealing with them, until Dabb's idiotic series finale.

It's not like they were friends with Elkins, John may have known him before he was killed in Dead Man's Blood but Dean only met him long enough to borrow the Colt from him in 1973, he didn't sit around having a chat.

Holy water isn't shown here as anything other than the sort of thing that distracts them momentarily due to the burning.  It doesn't kill them or stop them.  Frankly I can see Dean and Sam just not bothering because they want to get in and get it over with.

SPN never said Holy Water did not work on Vampires so this in no way contradicts canon.  

 

[Shadow42]

42 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

Dean and Sam thought vampires were EXTINCT up until the end of Season 1.  There weren't actually a ton of vampires running around for quite a while, they had to take the time increase their numbers and Dean and Sam generally didn't have a ton of issues dealing with them, until Dabb's idiotic series finale.

It's not like they were friends with Elkins, John may have known him before he was killed in Dead Man's Blood but Dean only met him long enough to borrow the Colt from him in 1973, he didn't sit around having a chat.

Holy water isn't shown here as anything other than the sort of thing that distracts them momentarily due to the burning.  It doesn't kill them or stop them.  Frankly I can see Dean and Sam just not bothering because they want to get in and get it over with.

SPN never said Holy Water did not work on Vampires so this in no way contradicts canon.  

 

In the history of Supernatural holy water only worked on demons. Vampires were children of Eve. The rules for monsters is different. Silver, salt, Phoenix ash etc.  But since they already established the holy water pistol why not Deadmans blood pistol. Or anything soaked in dead blood. It was just an weird moment.

John thought they were extinct. Sam and Dean didn't know they had ever existed. Elkins thought they had been wiped out. Beheading was still the only way to kill them (Samuel tested Dean's knowledge in S4). The only thing that slowed them down was DM's blood. Elkins and John never mentioned HW but Carlos knew all about it?

[roamyn]

I give the HW a pass, because we weren’t told one way or another.  Just because vamps were thought to have been extinct by John, it can also mean that Daniel still knew a few were out there, and Carlos also knew abt them.

What I found more ludicrous was Mary taking out five on her own.  Dean took out an entire nest, but he was a vampire himself at the time.

More interestingly- to me - was Dean’s narration abt fixing a trigger he pulled.

And I knew I couldn’t trust Kyle from his look at John.

(can we leave opinions abt the SPN finale out of this Forum.  If you didn’t like it or did, go join the SPN Forum and debate/express yourself there.  Thank you)

Edited February 3, 2023 by roamyn

[MAK]

On 2/2/2023 at 2:28 AM, tessathereaper said:

But I think they quite smartly established the relationship between the 4 of them BEFORE this, one of the strengths of The Winchester is that ALL the combinations of characters are interesting, they all have a dynamic, they all have a relationship, whether new or established.

I really like this about this show. In this episode, I really enjoyed the dynamic between John and Millie. No matter how much he broods, he does seem to wear his heart (emotions) on his sleeve. It does seem that the show is focusing more on John than Mary. Because we don't really get too much about her. She seems to keep things very need to know.  I hope we get scenes where she opens up more to John. 

I see a lot of Dean characteristics in Millie, and I like that a lot. 

Not really paying attention to conflicts in the LOL!Lore. They did so much of that in SPN in the later seasons. IMO, it doesn't take away from the overall story. Especially since this is probably going to turn out to be an AU. I have some speculations about that, that I will take to the proper thread.

 

[tessathereaper]

13 hours ago, roamyn said:

I give the HW a pass, because we weren’t told one way or another.  Just because vamps were thought to have been extinct by John, it can also mean that Daniel still knew a few were out there, and Carlos also knew abt them.

What I found more ludicrous was Mary taking out five on her own.  Dean took out an entire nest, but he was a vampire himself at the time.

More interestingly- to me - was Dean’s narration abt fixing a trigger he pulled.

And I knew I couldn’t trust Kyle from his look at John.

(can we leave opinions abt the SPN finale out of this Forum.  If you didn’t like it or did, go join the SPN Forum and debate/express yourself there.  Thank you)

They weren't "extinct" in the early 70's so it's not odd Carlos knew about them.  Elkins, and Gordon Walker for his own part of it, were wiping them out.  By the time John got into it 10 years later, most of them were gone and the few left deeply in hiding.  Even in 86 there was the possibility a few were out there but by 2006(season 1) they were so rare most hunters apparently thought they were gone.  (However they started rebuilding their numbers.)

[catrox14]

It's entirely possible that the only person(s) who knew about holy water harming vampires are dead by the time John and later Dean and Sam, hunt. Its also entirely possible it was never documented or that  information was gotten rid of by vampires or anyone who didn't want it known.

For all of the things that are changed or removed or undone and redone re lore in the mother ship to this show, this bit of unknown (as in never mentioned one way or the other) is small potatoes IMO. And not IMO, indicative of the writers not knowing what they are doing.

[Boadicea]

On 2/1/2023 at 1:05 PM, PAForrest said:

The Back to the Future nod with mama inadvertently noticing her adult son is hot was funny. 

And a nod to ItB, where Dean catches his first glimpse of his future mother and comments that she’s a babe. “And I’m going to Hell. Again.” 😀

[BornToDie]

I thought I would check back in and watch and see if anything improved, and…it didn’t for me.  I was just bored with the story, and there was just nothing really happening.  Where’s the humor?  The chemistry is still pretty lacking, especially with Meg and her flat line readings, and Mary being able to kill that many vamps in one episode was a bit unbelievable.  I understand there’s only been 9 episodes, but there haven’t really been any memorable people in peril, and John’s cop ex and the guy she was talking to at the end are pretty bland actors, too.  I will say out of the core four, Drake is probably the best actor, plus he’s easy on the eyes to me, so that helps.

[Casseiopeia]

On 2/4/2023 at 8:26 AM, catrox14 said:

It's entirely possible that the only person(s) who knew about holy water harming vampires are dead by the time John and later Dean and Sam, hunt. Its also entirely possible it was never documented or that  information was gotten rid of by vampires or anyone who didn't want it known.

For all of the things that are changed or removed or undone and redone re lore in the mother ship to this show, this bit of unknown (as in never mentioned one way or the other) is small potatoes IMO. And not IMO, indicative of the writers not knowing what they are doing.

Maybe but Daniel Elkins was alive and had dedicated his life  to everything vampires. He didn't share that Holy water was effective with John? Samuel also stated that Campbells were lopping off the heads of vampires on the Mayflower (he even had a cure) so he probably knew a few things as well. But somehow Carlos who had presumably only been hunting a few years knew all about Holy Water? If a Holy Cross doesn't work why would Holy Water? And then what? The gang just never shared that tidbit for the rest of their lives?

In Supernatural lore vampirism was treated more like a virus that could be cured. So more of a disease not really unholy.

  And the vampires didn't know about Holy water either since they just sat there waiting for Carlos to douse, strut up them and flick hair at them? It's just moments like this that take some viewers out of the story.

It was a silly campy moment that was played for laughs. Some people just saw it as another groan moment.

[catrox14]

3 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

He didn't share that Holy water was effective with John?

As I recollect it was said on the mother ship not many hunters worked in collaboration and he and John IIRC weren't exactly friendly as John was not friendly with many people during his hunting days. Samuel said in ItB they didn't trust other hunters much.

Daniel Elkins himself might have never learned about it if they didn't communicate during this time.

If it didn't kill them nor really stop them for that long, John may not thought it was worthwhile to use. 

Ultimately, if all if this is going to be a memory wipe or alternate universe, this John is not going to remember it anyway.

[Brown44]

18 hours ago, BornToDie said:

I will say out of the core four, Drake is probably the best actor, plus he’s easy on the eyes to me, so that helps.

Isn't there supposed to be a core five? I guess with Demetria going back and forth between Winchesters and a House Divided she's only available for certain amount of episodes. 

[BornToDie]

1 hour ago, Brown44 said:

Isn't there supposed to be a core five? I guess with Demetria going back and forth between Winchesters and a House Divided she's only available for certain amount of episodes. 

I guess there could be a core five if you include her.  I was referring to only Mary, John, Carlos, and Latika. Ada is ok, and Millie reminds me a bit too much of Ellen from the OG show.

[tessathereaper]

On 2/5/2023 at 12:11 AM, BornToDie said:

I thought I would check back in and watch and see if anything improved, and…it didn’t for me.  I was just bored with the story, and there was just nothing really happening.  Where’s the humor?  The chemistry is still pretty lacking, especially with Meg and her flat line readings, and Mary being able to kill that many vamps in one episode was a bit unbelievable.  I understand there’s only been 9 episodes, but there haven’t really been any memorable people in peril, and John’s cop ex and the guy she was talking to at the end are pretty bland actors, too.  I will say out of the core four, Drake is probably the best actor, plus he’s easy on the eyes to me, so that helps.

The two kids in episode 4 were memorable and came up with the Monster Club name, with Bori Baba as the villain, Ada trapping a demon in a plan was pretty memorable too(same episode).  The god of war Mars Neto was pretty interesting. Loki is always interesting.   And Mac the vengeful spirit was good.  Honestly I've liked all the creatures, I mean SPN chose the ones it did for a reason, they were the most well known and interesting, I think The Winchesters has done a pretty good job bringing in some new ones, that enable interesting character revelations, while also having the main one pop up from time to time the Akrida and a few familiars(Loki and Vampires)

Kyle and Betty have only had a few short scenes and they've been purposely bland and normal in them because in Kyle's case, he's supposed to be very normal, boy next door, nothing that would raise Mary's hackles and Betty is just a nice girl who doesn't know she's been thrown into a really really bad situation yet(she thinks she knows but she doesn't).  The final scene in this episode left me intrigued and even worried for Betty even though she's kind of a busy body(he's your ex, cop or no, who are you to be trying to find dirt on his new girl?).

There's humor, can't really explain that though either you find something humorous or not, but there's been quite a bit.  

 

ETA:  Core Four - Drake, Meg, Nida and Jojo are called "the core four".  Demetria, Bianca, they are important but those 4 are the main characters.

Edited February 6, 2023 by tessathereaper

[Shadow42]

22 hours ago, catrox14 said:

As I recollect it was said on the mother ship not many hunters worked in collaboration and he and John IIRC weren't exactly friendly as John was not friendly with many people during his hunting days. Samuel said in ItB they didn't trust other hunters much.

Daniel Elkins himself might have never learned about it if they didn't communicate during this time.

If it didn't kill them nor really stop them for that long, John may not thought it was worthwhile to use. 

Ultimately, if all if this is going to be a memory wipe or alternate universe, this John is not going to remember it anyway.

It just seems like a lot of gymnastics to go through in order to make it all work.

A lot of people will need a mind wipe not just John.

[ahrtee]

22 minutes ago, Shadow42 said:

It just seems like a lot of gymnastics to go through in order to make it all work.

A lot of people will need a mind wipe not just John.

Not if it's an AU. 😀

[tessathereaper]

On 2/6/2023 at 3:56 PM, Shadow42 said:

It just seems like a lot of gymnastics to go through in order to make it all work.

A lot of people will need a mind wipe not just John.

They aren't mental gymnastics I don't think.  IMO most of the mental gymnastics are coming from people who think it contradicts canon in some way.  Those were assumptions people made, explanations their own brains came up with, not facts within the show.  The fact that those assumptions were wrong is not on the show, either SPN or TW.  Headcanon isn't official canon.