All Hat, No Cattle: All Speculation, No Spoilers

[Thalia]

A place to speculate without spoilers about the circa 1923 Duttons and their (potential and real) progeny.

[blackwing]

I'm confused about the competing family trees that have been posted on the internet.  I get that both of these are made by some reporter/fan and that neither are official material issued by the show.

This first version of a potential family tree, which includes dates, says that Jack is the grandfather of Kevin Costner John.  The dates seem to approximately line up.  Jack appears to be around 20 in 1923.  But this tree appears to suggest that he and his fiance already have a 4 year old son (John II) in 1923, even though they aren't married yet and we haven't seen this supposed son.

Some of the dates are messed up because I thought Margaret said she was a Civil War nurse and pregnant with Elsa at 18?  Elsa was 18 in 1883.  Which means the show was trying to claim that 55 year old Faith Hill was playing a 36 year old on the show.  Pffft, no way was Margaret 36.  She looked easily 45.

 

This second version of the tree suggests that John Sr., the character played by James Badge Dale who we have yet to see on the show has a second son, John Jr.   And it is this John Jr. who becomes the father of Kevin Costner John.  Kevin Costner John was established as being 67 in 2022, so he would be born in 1955.  So in this tree, John Sr. and his wife have a second child at 45ish years old (and their two sons are 20ish years apart in age), and this John Jr. becomes the father of Kevin Costner John.  If this is the case, I know it's biologically possible, but what's up with the Duttons having children so late in life?  In 1883 James and Margaret, who must have been early to mid 40s, had a child (Spencer) at around 45 years old.  And this tree would suggest that John Sr. and his wife also have a child at around 45.

 

I am leaning towards Jack being Kevin Costner's grandfather.  Because it seemed there was a lot to be made of Jake telling Jack something about how one day his children would be running the ranch.  If Jack somehow dies or doesn't become Kevin Costner's grandfather, then there wouldn't really be much reason to insert that line.

We know from Elsa that only one of James' children lives to see their children grow.  Elsa died.  It seems that John Sr. has to be the one she is referring to, since he has a grown son Jack.  

I agree it's possible that Spencer could be the father of John Jr. and be Kevin Costner's grandfather, but then he dies and never sees his children grow up.  Perhaps then Jack raises John Jr. as his own, much like how Jake and Cara raised John Sr. and Spencer.  

I'm curious as to how much younger Jake and Cara are supposed to have been from James and Margaret.  If James and Margaret were alive in 1923, they would be about 85 years old.  Jake and Cara both seem like they are at least 70, meaning they were at least 30 in 1883.   When 1883 aired, the show made it seem like Claire had nowhere to go.  Her husband had died and she felt forced to attach herself to her brother James and embark on this dangerous journey west that she clearly didn't want to go on.

But it seems like she had another brother who was at least 30 years old that she could have turned to for help.  Why didn't she?  Perhaps he was somewhere far away.  This is the kind of backstory that I would have appreciated learning more about.  It does seem like there are going to be a lot of plot holes / inconsistencies that will be created because Taylor Sheridan isn't the great storyteller that he thinks he is.

Edited December 28, 2022 by blackwing

[CrystalBlue]

Regarding mean and nasty Claire, perhaps she alienated her other brother who didn't want anything to do with her anymore.  Or Other Brother could have struck out on his own to another part of the USA or moved to Canada and wasn't around in TN when James and Margaret set off on the wagon trail.

 

[blackwing]

2 hours ago, CrystalBlue said:

Regarding mean and nasty Claire, perhaps she alienated her other brother who didn't want anything to do with her anymore.  Or Other Brother could have struck out on his own to another part of the USA or moved to Canada and wasn't around in TN when James and Margaret set off on the wagon trail.

 

I agree, it seems that either 1) Jake wasn't around when they moved from Tennessee to Texas and then struck out for Montana.  Maybe he was in Ireland with Helen Mirren.  Or 2) Claire and Jake didn't get along.

But either way, I feel like something should have been mentioned about their third sibling in "1883".  The obvious answer is that Taylor Sheridan didn't intend for there to be a third sibling.  And when he got the "1923" series greenlit, he made up this third sibling so he could upgrade the cast.  He knew he had to cast older actors as the patriarch and matriarch, and landed Harrison Ford and Dame Helen Mirren.  Instead of trying to make people believe that Tim McGraw and Faith Hill turned into Harrison Ford and Helen Mirren, he just decided to make them entirely heretofore never before mentioned family members.

[CrystalBlue]

Perhaps Taylor Sheridan will create another spinoff telling the Tale of James & Margaret during their time after they put down stakes in Montana, after Elsa died from sepsis from the arrow wound, with John growing up.  We know James and Margaret are buried at Yellowstone Dutton Ranch.  Tim McGraw and Faith Hill could still play them if they want to and are available.

[bunnyblue]

I'm spitballing here because the Dutton family tree is giving me a headache:

I had been leaning towards Spencer being Kevin Costner/John III's ancestor, in part because I thought Taylor Sheridan wanted the audience to assume John Sr. was the ancestor based on Elsa's line about her brothers in episode 1, but then he'd pull a switcheroo and reveal Spencer is actually Costner's great-grandfather. Technically, it's possible Spencer will father a child and die before the kid reaches adulthood. And technically that kid could father Costner in 1955.

HOWEVER, that can't work because of what the Native told Tim McGraw when he settled in Montana: that in 7 generations, the Natives will take the land back from the Duttons. In order for there to be 7 generations from James (1st gen) to Tate (7th gen) through Spencer's line, Spencer (2nd gen) would have to already have a kid OR he will have to sire a kid (3rd gen) in 1923 and that kid will have to have a kid (4th gen) who will father Costner (5th gen) in 1955. Meaning, Spencer's kid who might be born around 1923 will be need to become a grandfather at the age of 32 years old, lol.

Also Tim McGraw confirmed in some interview a while ago that James Dutton is Kevin Costner's great-great-grandfather...so there has to be 3 generations between them. 

Of course I'm operating on the popular fan theory that when adult Tate (7th generation Dutton AND part Native American) takes control of the Dutton empire he will fulfill the prophecy. 

In conclusion: yeah, I'm taking everything at face value and I'm 99% sure the Dutton line is thus: James > John Sr. > Jack > John II > Costner > Kayce > Tate = boom prophecy fulfilled. 

[circumvent]

Cara was certainly behaving like Jack's mother, not sure if she actually affirm that she is the mother, so that would settle who Kevin Costner's grandfather is. 

[blackwing]

4 hours ago, circumvent said:

Cara was certainly behaving like Jack's mother, not sure if she actually affirm that she is the mother, so that would settle who Kevin Costner's grandfather is. 

Cara (Helen Mirren) isn't Jack's mother.  Jack is the son of John Sr (who we haven't seen yet) and Emma, who I believe was the blonde woman on the porch that was sitting and talking with Cara.  Since Cara is married to Jake who is the brother of James who is the father of John Sr, that means Cara is John Sr's aunt, and thus she is the great-aunt of Jack.  Jack called her "Aunt Cara" at one point.

To make things even more muddled, here's yet another article discussing the family tree.  https://www.esquire.com/entertainment/tv/a42308044/yellowstone-1883-1923-dutton-family-tree/

Interestingly, this article claims that Paramount confirmed that Jack and his fiance Elizabeth won't have children, thus seemingly portending an early end for Jack.  Maybe after Jack dies, John Sr realises he needs another son?   This article suggests that John Sr. and Emma have another child, John II, who then becomes the father of Kevin Costner. 

Or Spencer fathers a child with whatshername and then dies.  That child is John II.

Article also suggests that Taylor Sheridan is working on yet another spinoff set in either the 1940s or 1960s that centers on John II. 

[circumvent]

35 minutes ago, blackwing said:

Cara (Helen Mirren) isn't Jack's mother.

My mistake. I meant Emma

 

39 minutes ago, blackwing said:

Or Spencer fathers a child with whatshername and then dies.  That child is John II.

Or they both die and the uncle raises the kid, or Jack does. There are too many possibilities and it is annoying that the writers/producers want to keep this all muddled and a guessing game. To me, it shows that they are not very sure of what they are doing and want people to keep talking about the show for whatever reason. Don't worry, Taylor Sheridan, we are good at hate watch and will keep talking about it

[blackwing]

On 12/30/2022 at 9:10 AM, circumvent said:

Or they both die and the uncle raises the kid, or Jack does. There are too many possibilities and it is annoying that the writers/producers want to keep this all muddled and a guessing game. To me, it shows that they are not very sure of what they are doing and want people to keep talking about the show for whatever reason. Don't worry, Taylor Sheridan, we are good at hate watch and will keep talking about it

OK, so John is dead, so he can't father another child with Emma who becomes John Jr (or John II).

Jack could be the father of John Jr, as long as Elizabeth doesn't die, but the Esquire article already states that Jack and Elizabeth don't have children.  Of couse, Esquire could be wrong, but they supposedly confirmed it with Paramount.

So that leaves Spencer as the father of John Jr., and thus Spencer is the grandfather of Kevin Costner John.  But Ghost Elsa claims that "only one of her father's children lived to see their children grown".  John has already seen his child Jack grown.  I would consider 20 or early 20ish or whatever age he is to be grown.  If Ghost Elsa tries to pull some crap like "oops mah bahd, when ah sayd grow-un ah mahnt that one aint grow-un uhnteel one is mah-reed" then I will hold a seance and exorcise her.

It seems it is only possible for Spencer to be the father of John Jr. if Spencer dies during this season.

[sandwoman]

Quote

It seems it is only possible for Spencer to be the father of John Jr. if Spencer dies during this season.

Spencer can die when his kid is 14 or 15 and still not have "lived to see his child grown." It seems clear (to me) that he's doomed, but he will be John II's dad (who he'll name after his dead brother). John lived long enough to see his kid grown and now he's dead. Jack's wife Elizabeth probably won't be able to have kids due to her injury. So Spencer's kid (or kids) will inherit the ranch, but have "Uncle Jack" to help out. Just like Uncle Jacob helped his brother's kids (Although I guess Spencer is Jack's uncle but whatever). 

[Affogato]

I don't know if it bodes well that the main thing people talk about is who survives to see the kids grow up. I haven't seen Yellowstone, and likely I won't see yellowstone, but is it possible that Jack rapes the american aboriginal girl and that produces John II, because that would be interesting. It seems that they are being trained as maids and so on, so she could work on the ranch.  It would seem to be just her luck, although I would wish she could go back and live with Grandma. 

Would that jeep have survived a rogue elephant? It was pretty flimsy. 

15 hours ago, sandwoman said:

Spencer can die when his kid is 14 or 15 and still not have "lived to see his child grown." It seems clear (to me) that he's doomed, but he will be John II's dad (who he'll name after his dead brother). John lived long enough to see his kid grown and now he's dead. Jack's wife Elizabeth probably won't be able to have kids due to her injury. So Spencer's kid (or kids) will inherit the ranch, but have "Uncle Jack" to help out. Just like Uncle Jacob helped his brother's kids (Although I guess Spencer is Jack's uncle but whatever). 

Yeah, the child seen grown isn't necessarily the one that carries the line forward, either. this could be a red herring. 

Edited January 3, 2023 by Affogato

[blackwing]

17 hours ago, Affogato said:

I don't know if it bodes well that the main thing people talk about is who survives to see the kids grow up.

I agree, I think it was a poor writing choice to have Ghost Elsa state her cryptic pronouncement about who lives to see his children grown.  If she hadn't said this, we wouldn't be trying to figure out "who lives, who dies, who tells your story". 

I think it's kind of sad that of the three possible Kevin Costner grandfathers (John, Spencer, Jack) that I've been waiting to see who dies.  John has died.  But if Spencer is the grandfather, then according to Elsa, he dies before his child becomes of age.

Not really sure why Taylor Sheridan would have included that line.  Did he think it's supposed to make people sit on the edge of their seat eagerly anticipating who is going to die?  For me it's doing the opposite, I think it's annoying.  I would rather have seen Spencer's story and Jack's story, and if some tragic end befells them, then that would be all the more poignant.

I think part of the problem is that we have already seen John II (or Jr?) briefly.  And there are multiple versions of possible family trees posted online, all of which indicate that John II is the only Dutton in his generation.  But theoretically there shouldn't be any reason why both Jack and Spencer can't have kids.  Kevin Costner John and the current day Duttons have never before talked about any of their Dutton ancestors, from 1883 or 1923 or otherwise.  Jack or Spencer could be Kevin Costner's grandfather, and the other one could be the sire of a line of Dutton cousins.

But because Esquire already said that Jack doesn't have kids, and Elsa already pretty much said that Spencer dies, it seems like Taylor Sheridan already wants to tell us the endings for these characters before we have even seen their whole life story.  It's a curious decision IMO.

[circumvent]

42 minutes ago, blackwing said:

Not really sure why Taylor Sheridan would have included that line.  Did he think it's supposed to make people sit on the edge of their seat eagerly anticipating who is going to die?  For me it's doing the opposite, I think it's annoying.  I would rather have seen Spencer's story and Jack's story, and if some tragic end befells them, then that would be all the more poignant.

 

 

43 minutes ago, blackwing said:

But because Esquire already said that Jack doesn't have kids, and Elsa already pretty much said that Spencer dies, it seems like Taylor Sheridan already wants to tell us the endings for these characters before we have even seen their whole life story.  It's a curious decision IMO.

I agree with you, it is annoying and unnecessary. I simply call it bad writing (and if he released bad information to the article, then it is plain deceit). Sheridan is a good, maybe great, cinematographer, a bad story teller. He makes things convoluted, at the same time that he tries to raise the "mystery" level of the plots. Recipe for failure. Yellowstone is (at least was, by the time I stopped watching) a perfect example of that. 

I know someone who works with him and it puzzles me how much they worship him. I have a feeling it is because of his current status as powerful and influential, a generator of opportunities for some, so the loyalty is based on that. At least that's the only thing that makes sense to me because if one tells those stories without the images, it is all a doozy, all of it was done before - and better

[SunnyBeBe]

Was there some reason to start the series off with the African scene?  It then went to  the US, but it seemed confusing to me.  Perhaps others knew that was coming.  Maybe later, there’ll be flashbacks to what happened to the couple as they arrived to Yellowstone.  I just envision the mother frozen in the ditch and two starving children. That doesn’t seem like much for their legacy at the place.  

[lazylou]

I am puzzled about the plot line that says Helen Mirren’s character can’t own property.  It is 1923; women could own and inherit property as far back as Montana territorial days, and by 1923 Montana had already had a woman serving as U.S Senator, who famously voted against entering WWI and then WWII.  Taylor Sheridan has been pretty free and easy about inventing Montana laws (or ignoring them) and then in later seasons of Yellowstone using the corrections he received to invent new plot points.