S02.E03: Tripe All Over the Place, Presumably

[TexasGal]

Quote

Anne Lister and Ann Walker launch a charm offensive on Ann’s relatives, determined to show them that Miss Walker is flourishing at Shibden Hall. Anne is fascinated by the arrival of a railway in Yorkshire and quizzes Halifax’s men of industry on what this revolution could mean for the town. Though animated in public, privately Anne is unable to tear her thoughts from Mariana Lawton, who has confided that she is in the depths of despair. When Mariana appeals to Anne to visit her, Miss Walker has to make a difficult decision. Can she trust her wife to go?

Airdate: 04.24.2022

Season 2 episodes are airing in the UK a few weeks earlier than in the US.  Anyone waiting for the US airing - don't enter if you don't want to be spoiled!

[SparedTurkey]

I love Marian. She has quickly become an absolute fave. She is getting some great lines and scenes this season. Love it.

[natyxg]

I'm starting to feel like they have bitten more than they can chew and the show is starting to suffer because of it. I imagine that Anne's diaries are very busy in this period and she was dipping her hand in many pots, but shows need to be focused and establish a main storyline, and I'm not seeing it. Now to the coal and the hotel we add the trains and the canals and possibly politics and oh my! But what is the actual storyline, though? In season one the question was "Will Anne and Ann end up together?" or "How will Anne and Ann end up together?", if you already knew that they did. Now I have no questions. *shrugs* It all feels like general * business* . It's not even like "Will Anne defeat the Rawsons and get them to stop stealing her coal?" I mean, I didn't care about the coal, but at least things felt more focused.

It feels similarly when it comes to the Ann(e)'s personal stories. They're not fully jelling, for me. I like that Ann is making the effort to be more assertive, and I can see how it can frustrate her to feel like she's not being taken seriously. But then Anne is off on her own individual story with Mariana which augh, so it feels at times like they're on different planets, even though they're physically together. I did like that Ann thanked Anne for all the stuff she does for her, because I think it's true. I think Anne (real Anne) was not perfect but she did try hard and often to do right by Ann Walker and she doesn't get enough credit for it. Still, I enjoyed the massage scene and I just want the Mariana storyline to be over to I can stop stressing about it (mostly frustration over the wasted time on it) and hopefully have some other cute Ann(e)s scenes. I ask so little, just let me enjoy the Ann(e)s, show!

The pig saga continues to be a no1curr plot, but I do appreciate that they have now added a mystery to it because while I don't care about them, ultimately, at least there's now a question hanging (Did Thomas kill Ben?) and wondering about something is better than not caring about it at all.

Favorite moments:

*The exploding cow scene was truly hilarious. 🤣 I'm really liking the comedy this season.

*I loved how Anne immediately caught on to the fact that an unmarried man is sniffing around Ann. I felt bad for her, she seemed so worried.

*The little shoulder kisses that Anne gave Ann during the massage. And btw, Anne giving Ann backrubs fairly often, specially in their first couple of years together, is from the diaries.

*Mrs. Rawson's crush on Anne. 🤣

Edited April 29, 2022 by natyxg

[tennisgurl]

Marian continues to be a superstar, I was cracking up during the entire exploding cow story. I always enjoy family table talk time, there is a real familiarity and warmth to them. 

There are so many stories going on, I find a lot of them to be confusing and exhausting, especially the saga of the pig family. I like the idea of exploring the lives of the non gentry during this time period, which I wish we saw more of in media, but I wish that it was more interesting. I prefer exploring more of the dynamic between Anne/Ann, her family, and I think that the political and economic issues of the time are interesting. So much changed so fast, technologically and socially, I like seeing how normal people reacted to those changes. You have some people being excited about the trains changing how transportation will run and wanting to change with the times while others are nervous about it, and you also get Anne seeing the poverty after the "recent issues" in France and taking the lesson as "the poor and the progressives should just shut up and stick to the status quo." Its always funny how Anne can be so progressive in so many ways and also very conservative in other ways, especially when it comes to class. 

Mariana seems like the sort of person who always wants what she cant have. When Anne was with her or pining over her she apparently broke things off and now that she's happy with Ann she's mad about it. Anne might care deeply for Ann, and I think she does, but she is also still carrying a touch for Mariana, who she probably thinks of as more of an equal than Ann. Ann might end up regretting being so alright with Anne going off to see her ex, but then when Anne wants to do something, she usually does it no matter what people say.

Edited May 10, 2022 by tennisgurl

[natyxg]

3 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Mariana seems like the sort of person who always wants what she cant have. When Anne was with her or pining over her she apparently broke things off and now that she's happy with Ann she's mad about it

Mariana's big problem in life was that she never had children. She married Charles for money, with the hope she would have some children soon and he would die soon enough, but neither thing happened. The dude lived to be 90! She ended up married to him for like 45 years. At the time, wives didn't automatically inherit from their husbands. The idea was always to keep the estate intact, or as intact as possible, so they would choose one male heir to leave it to, and hope to marry their daughters well. Ideally, Mariana would've had children who would look after her when Charles died. But that never happened. She gave up her own inheritance when she married, which was never gonna be a lot anyway because she had too many sisters and like I said, what was preferred was keeping the chunk of the estate intact and leave it to the eldest son. So she depended on Charles providing for her in his will, and she always feared that he wouldn't.

So Anne was always her security blanket, her plan B in case all else failed. When Anne came back from Hastings after Vere Hobart Mariana told her to stop dreaming, they were never going to be together at Shibden (this is in the diaries and also mentioned on the show in 1x07), probably because she got along really well with Charles' nephew, his heir, and she trusted that he would look after her when Charles died. She even hoped to marry him to her niece, little Mariana, which would secure her position in his life even more. But William died (again, we see this in episode 1x07) and all her plans fell apart... so back to Anne. Only now Anne is slipping away too because she married Ann Walker. It throws her in a tailspin. In 1834 Mariana is scrambling to pull Anne back into her web, in great part because she's afraid for her future if/when Charles died. The show completely erased this, but real Mariana was also having some sort of relationship with a man called Mr. Crewe at the time the show is on right now. You get the feeling that she's trying to keep both him and Anne on standby, as a substitutes for Charles. But again, Charles was like Wolverine or something. He still had 25+ years left after the events we're covering now. He must have had great genes. Who lives to 90 in the 1800s? The ultimate troll. And in the end he did provide for her in his will, not a LOT as far as I know, but enough to live on the rest of her life.

[gingerella]

On 4/28/2022 at 8:26 PM, natyxg said:

The pig saga continues to be a no1curr plot, but I do appreciate that they have now added a mystery to it because while I don't care about them, ultimately, at least there's now a question hanging (Did Thomas kill Ben?) and wondering about something is better than not caring about it at all.

Favorite moments:

*The exploding cow scene was truly hilarious. 🤣 I'm really liking the comedy this season.

*I loved how Anne immediately caught on to the fact that an unmarried man is sniffing around Ann. I felt bad for her, she seemed so worried.

*The little shoulder kisses that Anne gave Ann during the massage. And btw, Anne giving Ann backrubs fairly often, specially in their first couple of years together, is from the diaries.

*Mrs. Rawson's crush on Anne. 🤣

Yes to the above. And in particular, exploding cows and The Great Pig Saga. I don't care about that family and they just don't provide enough glue to add value to the story. I mean, have we gone through all of this to learn that Thomas killed his asshole father and asshole uncle? So what? I don't care. They were hideous people and deserved what they got. I just don't care, nor do I see how it connects to the Ann(e)'s stories. I'd rather see much more Marion to be honest! She clearly heard about the exploding cow from a man whom she is conversing with, let us see her interactions with the opposite sex more. She's so entertaining!

ETA: Gemma Whelan is a treasure! She rocked as Theon's badass sister in GoTs. She is very funny in Upstart Crow (a sitcom about Shakespeare), and she's amazing in this show too. Major girl crush on her!

Edited May 11, 2022 by gingerella

[rollacoaster]

20 hours ago, natyxg said:

Mariana's big problem in life was that she never had children. She married Charles for money, with the hope she would have some children soon and he would die soon enough, but neither thing happened. The dude lived to be 90! She ended up married to him for like 45 years. At the time, wives didn't automatically inherit from their husbands. The idea was always to keep the estate intact, or as intact as possible, so they would choose one male heir to leave it to, and hope to marry their daughters well. Ideally, Mariana would've had children who would look after her when Charles died. But that never happened. She gave up her own inheritance when she married, which was never gonna be a lot anyway because she had too many sisters and like I said, what was preferred was keeping the chunk of the estate intact and leave it to the eldest son. So she depended on Charles providing for her in his will, and she always feared that he wouldn't.

So Anne was always her security blanket, her plan B in case all else failed. When Anne came back from Hastings after Vere Hobart Mariana told her to stop dreaming, they were never going to be together at Shibden (this is in the diaries and also mentioned on the show in 1x07), probably because she got along really well with Charles' nephew, his heir, and she trusted that he would look after her when Charles died. She even hoped to marry him to her niece, little Mariana, which would secure her position in his life even more. But William died (again, we see this in episode 1x07) and all her plans fell apart... so back to Anne. Only now Anne is slipping away too because she married Ann Walker. It throws her in a tailspin. In 1834 Mariana is scrambling to pull Anne back into her web, in great part because she's afraid for her future if/when Charles died. The show completely erased this, but real Mariana was also having some sort of relationship with a man called Mr. Crewe at the time the show is on right now. You get the feeling that she's trying to keep both him and Anne on standby, as a substitutes for Charles. But again, Charles was like Wolverine or something. He still had 25+ years left after the events we're covering now. He must have had great genes. Who lives to 90 in the 1800s? The ultimate troll. And in the end he did provide for her in his will, not a LOT as far as I know, but enough to live on the rest of her life.

Ooooooh, this is some scalding hot tea! Thanks for sharing!

18 hours ago, gingerella said:

ETA: Gemma Whelan is a treasure! She rocked as Theon's badass sister in GoTs. She is very funny in Upstart Crow (a sitcom about Shakespeare), and she's amazing in this show too. Major girl crush on her!

Ah! That's why she looks so familiar! I loved her as Yara. Heh. She's getting a lot of great sister roles. I'm glad to see that she and Anne seem to get along a lot better this season. It was so cute when she was feeling poorly and Anne was taking her pulse. When Anne was done, she smirked,  chucked Mariann on the chin and told her she would live. Such a warm, sisterly moment. 

[CapeCodLuv]

22 hours ago, natyxg said:

Mariana's big problem in life was that she never had children. She married Charles for money, with the hope she would have some children soon and he would die soon enough, but neither thing happened. The dude lived to be 90! She ended up married to him for like 45 years. At the time, wives didn't automatically inherit from their husbands. The idea was always to keep the estate intact, or as intact as possible, so they would choose one male heir to leave it to, and hope to marry their daughters well. Ideally, Mariana would've had children who would look after her when Charles died. But that never happened. She gave up her own inheritance when she married, which was never gonna be a lot anyway because she had too many sisters and like I said, what was preferred was keeping the chunk of the estate intact and leave it to the eldest son. So she depended on Charles providing for her in his will, and she always feared that he wouldn't.

So Anne was always her security blanket, her plan B in case all else failed. When Anne came back from Hastings after Vere Hobart Mariana told her to stop dreaming, they were never going to be together at Shibden (this is in the diaries and also mentioned on the show in 1x07), probably because she got along really well with Charles' nephew, his heir, and she trusted that he would look after her when Charles died. She even hoped to marry him to her niece, little Mariana, which would secure her position in his life even more. But William died (again, we see this in episode 1x07) and all her plans fell apart... so back to Anne. Only now Anne is slipping away too because she married Ann Walker. It throws her in a tailspin. In 1834 Mariana is scrambling to pull Anne back into her web, in great part because she's afraid for her future if/when Charles died. The show completely erased this, but real Mariana was also having some sort of relationship with a man called Mr. Crewe at the time the show is on right now. You get the feeling that she's trying to keep both him and Anne on standby, as a substitutes for Charles. But again, Charles was like Wolverine or something. He still had 25+ years left after the events we're covering now. He must have had great genes. Who lives to 90 in the 1800s? The ultimate troll. And in the end he did provide for her in his will, not a LOT as far as I know, but enough to live on the rest of her life.

I'm trying to feel something for Marianna because she is having a very real mental break down now as nothing she saw for her future is panning out.  She made a list and nothing is being checked off so she's losing her mind. If I am being honest if I were in her shoes back then I probably would have taken the cowards way out too and attached myself to a man with money. I am not brave like Anne, Ann, Thib etc. That being said, she has no right to expect Anne would take care of her. She's manipulative and preying on Anne's emotions. She made her bed and now she's willing to hurt Anne to ensure her comfort in old age, poor Ann is just collateral damage as long as she gets what she wants.

I wonder how far Marianna would fall if Charles died first and didn't provide for her. What does provide mean during these times? Would she be left penniless and homeless or are we speaking of a downgrade to a small country home with only a maid and gardener? I recently re watched Cranston and Return to Cranston on PBS, Masterpiece Theater which I adore. There were women given an annual allowance set up in trust by their fathers I think or oldest brother. They did not live lavishly but I thought it was comfortable. They certainly had nothing to fall back on if a year was difficult, but there was money. I'm just curious if it's homelessness Marianna fears or a less lavish lifestyle.

Do you know natyxg how much younger Marianna was than Charles? Was she just expecting that by nature she would live longer than her husband or was it a big age difference? I didn't realize Mariana was not just upset beyond her grief at poor William's untimely death,  I had no idea it impacted her financially. I thought it was odd that she was so upset but didn't want to go with Charles to the services. Her excuse of the mother not liking her didn't wash with me. Charles seemed annoyed she stayed to visit with Anne while appearing so upset at the boy's death,  I think he felt her reaction was false. Or at least her reaction didn't match her following actions, not going to support him and the family and pay her respects to the boy she loved. I believe she did love the boy, but her thoughts were for herself first. Same as with Anne's joy at marrying Ann, her thoughts were with herself and not joy for her friend.

I'm so glad you have read the diaries, hope my questions aren't too much.

 

[CapeCodLuv]

21 hours ago, gingerella said:

Yes to the above. And in particular, exploding cows and The Great Pig Saga. I don't care about that family and they just don't provide enough glue to add value to the story. I mean, have we gone through all of this to learn that Thomas killed his asshole father and asshole uncle? So what? I don't care. They were hideous people and deserved what they got. I just don't care, nor do I see how it connects to the Ann(e)'s stories. I'd rather see much more Marion to be honest! She clearly heard about the exploding cow from a man whom she is conversing with, let us see her interactions with the opposite sex more. She's so entertaining!

ETA: Gemma Whelan is a treasure! She rocked as Theon's badass sister in GoTs. She is very funny in Upstart Crow (a sitcom about Shakespeare), and she's amazing in this show too. Major girl crush on her!

Love Gemma! Yara was one of my favorite characters On GOT and I'm so glad she made it to the end. It's a pleasure to see her in anything new and Marion is one of my favorites here. I hope the expand her character.

[Llywela]

12 minutes ago, CapeCodLuv said:

I recently re watched Cranston and Return to Cranston on PBS, Masterpiece Theater which I adore. There were women given an annual allowance set up in trust by their fathers I think or oldest brother. They did not live lavishly but I thought it was comfortable. They certainly had nothing to fall back on if a year was difficult, but there was money. I'm just curious if it's homelessness Marianna fears or a less lavish lifestyle.

I think you mean Cranford (and Return to Cranford, which was a two part special that followed the mini-series) - just in case anyone else fancied looking it up and couldn't find it thanks to the misspelling. It's a lovely show, well worth watching, lots of very familiar faces. Set around about the same era as Gentleman Jack, too.

Edited May 11, 2022 by Llywela

[natyxg]

2 hours ago, rollacoaster said:

Ooooooh, this is some scalding hot tea! Thanks for sharing!

You're welcome.

55 minutes ago, CapeCodLuv said:

I'm trying to feel something for Marianna because she is having a very real mental break down now as nothing she saw for her future is panning out.  She made a list and nothing is being checked off so she's losing her mind. If I am being honest if I were in her shoes back then I probably would have taken the cowards way out too and attached myself to a man with money. I am not brave like Anne, Ann, Thib etc. That being said, she has no right to expect Anne would take care of her. She's manipulative and preying on Anne's emotions. She made her bed and now she's willing to hurt Anne to ensure her comfort in old age, poor Ann is just collateral damage as long as she gets what she wants.

This is why I dislike Mariana so much. She's self serving like most people are, including Anne, but she's just 100% selfish. What she wants only benefits her. Anne has nothing to gain by continuing to be tied to her and continue to wait for her, the opposite since this is BAD for her, yet that seems to be what Mariana wants, to keep Anne under her control for her own benefit, regardless of what that means to Anne.

57 minutes ago, CapeCodLuv said:

I wonder how far Marianna would fall if Charles died first and didn't provide for her. What does provide mean during these times? Would she be left penniless and homeless or are we speaking of a downgrade to a small country home with only a maid and gardener? I recently re watched Cranston and Return to Cranston on PBS, Masterpiece Theater which I adore. There were women given an annual allowance set up in trust by their fathers I think or oldest brother. They did not live lavishly but I thought it was comfortable. They certainly had nothing to fall back on if a year was difficult, but there was money. I'm just curious if it's homelessness Marianna fears or a less lavish lifestyle.

I could be wrong, but I think she feared being left with nothing at all. That annual allowance set up by fathers and brothers is what she gave up when she married Charles, because she had four sisters and her father was a doctor (like her brother, a psychiatrist type), so they weren't super rich. It's not like Tib, whose family was rich enough so there was enough money around for unmarried daughters like her to be taken care of, even if they never inherited the estate (Tib never married). So she completely depended on Charles leaving her something, or on his heir taking care of her. In the end I think what you mention is pretty much the set up Charles left her with. I don't think Anne would ever have left her homeless though, even if they weren't a couple anymore.

I think her worry came from the fact that he had all the power and could change his will whenever he wanted to, and their relationship wasn't stellar. This is all in episode 1x07, too. Anne tells her that surely Charles has her protected in his will, but Mariana isn't sure.

1 hour ago, CapeCodLuv said:

Do you know natyxg how much younger Marianna was than Charles? Was she just expecting that by nature she would live longer than her husband or was it a big age difference?

They married in 1816 when she was 28 and he was 46. He was a widower but his previous wife didn't have children either.

1 hour ago, CapeCodLuv said:

I didn't realize Mariana was not just upset beyond her grief at poor William's untimely death,  I had no idea it impacted her financially.

This was on the show, too. She tells Anne in episode 1x07 that she would've become dependent on William when Charles died, but now that he's dead Charles' heir will be some distant relative who doesn't know her and would cut her off at the first opportunity. There's also a bit of an extended bbc scene version that deals with it too:

Look in the four minute mark (from episode 1x07).

[gingerella]

5 hours ago, Llywela said:

I think you mean Cranford (and Return to Cranford, which was a two part special that followed the mini-series) - just in case anyone else fancied looking it up and couldn't find it thanks to the misspelling. It's a lovely show, well worth watching, lots of very familiar faces. Set around about the same era as Gentleman Jack, too.

*waves* Hi my dear Unsullied friend, so glad to see you here!

[CapeCodLuv]

5 hours ago, Llywela said:

I think you mean Cranford (and Return to Cranford, which was a two part special that followed the mini-series) - just in case anyone else fancied looking it up and couldn't find it thanks to the misspelling. It's a lovely show, well worth watching, lots of very familiar faces. Set around about the same era as Gentleman Jack, too.

Thank you so much for the correction. It was such a lovely mini series and follow up, I could watch over and over again, what's not to like? Judi Dench, Imelda Staunton, Jim Carter, Cecelia Imrie, Tom Hiddleston, Lesley Manville, Claudie Blakley, Tim Curry Michelle Dockery, Jonathan Pryce, and Francesca Annis amongst others great actors. It was like stepping back in time and I felt they were my friends. I so wanted to buy myself a white bonnet with lace

I've noticed Aunt Anne, Ann's Aunt, older relatives plus Ann's sister wear the same white bonnets. I'm assuming they are worn after marriage or at a certain age. I'll be looking that up tomorrow, I love learning about the fashion trends depicted.. Anne's certainly bucking any trend with her top hat!

[CapeCodLuv]

4 hours ago, natyxg said:

You're welcome.

This is why I dislike Mariana so much. She's self serving like most people are, including Anne, but she's just 100% selfish. What she wants only benefits her. Anne has nothing to gain by continuing to be tied to her and continue to wait for her, the opposite since this is BAD for her, yet that seems to be what Mariana wants, to keep Anne under her control for her own benefit, regardless of what that means to Anne.

I could be wrong, but I think she feared being left with nothing at all. That annual allowance set up by fathers and brothers is what she gave up when she married Charles, because she had four sisters and her father was a doctor (like her brother, a psychiatrist type), so they weren't super rich. It's not like Tib, whose family was rich enough so there was enough money around for unmarried daughters like her to be taken care of, even if they never inherited the estate (Tib never married). So she completely depended on Charles leaving her something, or on his heir taking care of her. In the end I think what you mention is pretty much the set up Charles left her with. I don't think Anne would ever have left her homeless though, even if they weren't a couple anymore.

I think her worry came from the fact that he had all the power and could change his will whenever he wanted to, and their relationship wasn't stellar. This is all in episode 1x07, too. Anne tells her that surely Charles has her protected in his will, but Mariana isn't sure.

They married in 1816 when she was 28 and he was 46. He was a widower but his previous wife didn't have children either.

This was on the show, too. She tells Anne in episode 1x07 that she would've become dependent on William when Charles died, but now that he's dead Charles' heir will be some distant relative who doesn't know her and would cut her off at the first opportunity. There's also a bit of an extended bbc scene version that deals with it too:

Look in the four minute mark (from episode 1x07).

It must have been so frightening to be an unmarried woman without a benefactor or wealthy family, so many women in unhappy marriages because there was no other choice.. Watching the issue playing out on Sanditon, Bridgerton, Howard;s End, The Gilded Age and more to some degree.

Tired of pig family. I'm not sure how they tie back to Ann other than being tenants, is she going to be found at fault if the murders are discovered? I enjoy house staff stories but the staff are boring here. They did a great job on Downton capturing my attention regarding employees, it's failing here.

[gingerella]

1 hour ago, CapeCodLuv said:

Tired of pig family. I'm not sure how they tie back to Ann other than being tenants, is she going to be found at fault if the murders are discovered? I enjoy house staff stories but the staff are boring here. They did a great job on Downton capturing my attention regarding employees, it's failing here.

Ditto Pig Family. I came to the same conclusion, the only way the Pig Family Murders are relevant is if Anne is accountable because they're her tenants. And even then, it's not an interesting story at all.

I so agree re: the Downstairs Staff on Downton and I'd love to get to know the staff on GJ better as well. I rather like George the new groomsman/footman/whatever he is. We saw Ms. Frenchie in the second episode but no mention of what's going on with her now. There are servants that might be interesting, were we allowed to get to know them a bit more.

[Llywela]

13 hours ago, gingerella said:

*waves* Hi my dear Unsullied friend, so glad to see you here!

*waves back* Our paths don't cross often enough these days! I'm glad we've found another show in common :)