S04.E05: How to Chew Quietly and Influence People

[smartymarty]

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You can also see that Joel has a type: very smart women who push back.

I think I'd like Mei a lot more if she were played by a different actress. I don't think her delivery is very natural.

Good Lord, Mei is annoying IMO.  She exhausts me.

She talks just like Midge. Close your eyes and envision Midge instead.
 

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I am in the camp that feels Midge did not out Shy at the Apollo. I don’t feel in that era people put things together like we do now, and I also don’t feel that crowd would be laughing so uproariously if they felt she was actually saying Shy was a homosexual.

But Midge explicitly acknowledged that that was the unintentional effect of her routine.

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But accepting money to keep a secret she was going to keep anyway? I don't see the problem there.

The only ethical issue I could see is that the handlers are jerks for how they're isolating Shy. But accepting money from jerks is nothing new for Midge.

But it's Shy's money. Somebody else's? Sure. But that money is coming out of what he earns. And their purpose isn't to isolate Shy but to remove all the people who know he is gay and have them sign NDAs.

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While I understand Rose's concern, I wish Midge had reminded her that her job at the club is keeping a roof over Rose and Abe's heads.

Midge did say that. Her mother replied that she and Abe paid for the apartment, which Midge pointed out was their lie to save face.

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I must not be remembering the Shy-Midge falling out very well. I thought Reggie told her to talk about Shy to the audience and she assumed that Shy's homosexuality was not a secret and she started making jokes about it. Would someone please explain what happened between them?

Midge addressed this in her "apology." That Reggie suggested it, but instead of making fun of other things (I can't remember her examples) she went for the things that suggested homosexuality. She acknowledged that she wasn't thinking clearly, and because the audience was eating it up and she was so scared about not doing well in front of that audience, she kept on going. But she realized after the fact that it was wrong.

What I don't understand is why they can't be friends, unless she believes Shy's "goons" would keep them apart if she and Shy tried to get together.

ETA: Just read the Salon article, and heartily agree with this: But Midge rejects his friendship. "No," she interrupts him. "I'm not falling for that again." Falling for what, exactly? A gay man trying to keep himself safe? Someone Midge hurt deeply doing his best — even though it's not his place — to mend their friendship? "We're not friends," Midge says bluntly. "I've learned my lesson."

Edited March 23, 2022 by smartymarty
read something I agree with

[Scarlett45]

I feel badly for Shy, that not only does he feel compelled to enter this marriage, but that he’s been isolated from all of his friends, because he wants to protect his career. It’s a choice I wouldn’t want to make. 
 

That being said, the writing could’ve been way better on this. I have felt that way all season, I haven’t been enjoying watching this season. My Mom still wants to watch, so we fit it in when we have time on Sundays but I feel like this season is a bad rehash of season 3. I’m not rooting for Midge right now and it’s just not FUNNY. 

On 3/23/2022 at 11:33 AM, smartymarty said:

But Midge rejects his friendship. "No," she interrupts him. "I'm not falling for that again." Falling for what, exactly? A gay man trying to keep himself safe? Someone Midge hurt deeply doing his best — even though it's not his place — to mend their friendship? "We're not friends," Midge says bluntly. "I've learned my lesson."

I think Midge has learned that Shy will do what ever it is he feels he needs to do to protect his career, and that her actions, him firing her, what she knows about him- no they can’t be friends. Shy just got rid of his OLDEST friend in the entire world because it’s a threat to his brand, I wouldn’t want to be close to him either after knowing that. I think Shy is desperately lonely (who wouldn’t be in that position) but to have friends you have to be a friend, and he’s not capable of being emotionally open to anyone right now. If he really wanted friends, he wouldn’t have let those guys get rid of his band and Reggie. Signing an NDA fine- but they all lost their jobs. 
 

Or I could be talking out of my ass. 

[kwnyc]

14 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

Shy just got rid of his OLDEST friend in the entire world because it’s a threat to his brand, I wouldn’t want to be close to him either after knowing that. I think Shy is desperately lonely (who wouldn’t be in that position) but to have friends you have to be a friend, and he’s not capable of being emotionally open to anyone right now. If he really wanted friends, he wouldn’t have let those guys get rid of his band and Reggie. Signing an NDA fine- but they all lost their jobs. 

This, exactly! Shy has sold his soul for fame and money. I mean, the lead in a Billy Wilder film is amazing...but not being able to be who he is, or trust anyone around him, that's the kind of thing that drives people into self-destruction, addiction, etc.

While it was a throwaway line, one of the mobsters said that Shy is "owned" by Sam Giancana (was that it?) and Giancana is said to have been involved in the Kennedy campaign and had CIA connections. (Giancana was assassinated in '75). So if the mob decided they wanted to make more money on their guy, Shy may have felt he had to say "yes."

[shapeshifter]

7 hours ago, kwnyc said:

While it was a throwaway line, one of the mobsters said that Shy is "owned" by Sam Giancana (was that it?) and Giancana is said to have been involved in the Kennedy campaign and had CIA connections. (Giancana was assassinated in '75). So if the mob decided they wanted to make more money on their guy, Shy may have felt he had to say "yes."

This👆is how I understood Shy’s situation. Like he didn’t have a choice. 

So I interpret this:

On 3/23/2022 at 12:33 PM, smartymarty said:

But Midge rejects his friendship. "No," she interrupts him. "I'm not falling for that again." Falling for what, exactly? A gay man trying to keep himself safe? Someone Midge hurt deeply doing his best — even though it's not his place — to mend their friendship? "We're not friends," Midge says bluntly. "I've learned my lesson."

—to mean Midge is not falling for Shy’s offer of friendship that they both know his Mob connections  will never allow to be fulfilled.

[janie jones]

Did Midge's conversation with Shy happen before or after Shy's people offered her all that money?

[Clanstarling]

18 hours ago, janie jones said:

Did Midge's conversation with Shy happen before or after Shy's people offered her all that money?

I believe it was before.

[lucindabelle]

I did feel sad Midge couldn’t accept his offer. It was very brave and showed a lot of integrity. In her shoes I’d have probably said yes and then tried to keep him at a distance emotionally… but as Midge says she takes her friendships seriously. She’s not capable of being a Hollywood fair weather person, and would be too hurt when he dumped her again.

who did she see on the pavement???

eta: Jewish here and I cringed each time they pronounced Melamed that way… but I looked it up and Sephardim do. Ashkenazim which lets be real is 99% of American Jews and you can’t tell me this family in Scarsdale is Sephardic- but anyway- it wojld me meLAmed. It’s a word it means teacher. 
 

see this site for American English pronunciation: 

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/melamed

Edited July 6, 2022 by lucindabelle

[ombre]

Jeepers.  If that's the send-off for Shy it's a brutal one.  And especially because we know that if things had happened in a slightly different sequence - if they'd tried to bribe Midge into silence first and *then* she'd had her moment with Shy - it probably would have played out very differently.  If she'd known that he was basically trapped and isolated, was reaching out to one of his few potential human connections, would she have rejected him like that?  I'd like to think she wouldn't but who knows.

Perhaps it is yet another cautionary tale of the perils of show biz.  I'm assuming the lump on the street was Lenny and the next episode will also be a cautionary tale.  It's hard to see how they would bring Shy back for a better ending with so few episodes left, but that was one painful parting shot.  I'm willing to suspend disbelief for the moment and see where they're going with this, but... well... it's a comedy.  Comedies end in weddings and fruitfulness.  You don't get to build likeable characters like Shy and then torture them pointlessly and still be a comedy.  Jason Alexander's character may have been tortured on his way out the door, but clearly it's giving him the germ for his first great play in decades.  Sophie is clearly about to land on her feet.  Etc.  If you both pointlessly torture a friend and still claim to be a comedy it shows an utter disregard for the humanity of the character.  We know Lenny is going to have trouble, but that's tied up with Midge's conflict between being a Good Girl/Wife/Mom and an Important Comic.  Lenny's torture is already baked in.  I'll be very disappointed if Shy's torture doesn't have some larger narrative purpose.

Otoh, this was the best-written episode in forever.  Kudos to Kate Fodor.

Ahahahaha - I got nosy and poked around to answer a question in my mind and discovered that which I'd forgotten - there is another season forthcoming. Eleven episodes seems like enough time to right things for shy, where three episodes doesn't. Okay, I'm okay with this loose end for now, but I reserve the right to be pissed if doesn't get tied up better by the end of the *next* season! :D

Edited December 2, 2022 by ombre