Book 7: An Echo in the Bone

[Petunia846]

I think for me it's not Willie that's boring, it's the military scenes that are boring. I don't mind Willie when he's not soldiering, and I know from reading some of the Lord John novels and from MOBY that it doesn't matter for me who the soldier is, if a scene is strictly about war or military stuff I just don't care. Claire healing during battles is fine for me, and interpersonal stuff in the heat of battle or whatever, but the description of actual fighting all flies over my head and the stuff about setting up camps and drills and general camp life...zzzzzzzzz. That's what I've learned about myself as a reader after reading all the books. Anything about hunting is the same for me too. Don't know why, just not my thing. I'm sure lots of people love that stuff though.

 

But anyway, I agree that Willie gets less boring, and I think the reason is that he gets to do more than just be a soldier.

[GHScorpiosRule]

I think for me it's not Willie that's boring, it's the military scenes that are boring. I don't mind Willie when he's not soldiering, and I know from reading some of the Lord John novels and from MOBY that it doesn't matter for me who the soldier is, if a scene is strictly about war or military stuff I just don't care. Claire healing during battles is fine for me, and interpersonal stuff in the heat of battle or whatever, but the description of actual fighting all flies over my head and the stuff about setting up camps and drills and general camp life...zzzzzzzzz. That's what I've learned about myself as a reader after reading all the books. Anything about hunting is the same for me too. Don't know why, just not my thing. I'm sure lots of people love that stuff though.

 

But anyway, I agree that Willie gets less boring, and I think the reason is that he gets to do more than just be a soldier.

 

 

Yes! Yes! Yes! This exactly. It's the military, espionagy stuff that is boring the Dickens out of me.  And that's not to say that strictly military stuff puts me to sleep; Just DG's way of writing them. Sorry, I've read war stuff, military stuff by other authors--in my romance novel readings--that do a much better and interesting job of keeping my interest.

 

So, if it wasna clear--I like Willie. Just not wot he's doing when he's talking to other people, and describing his missions. Bleah!™

 

™-James Alexander Malcolm Mackenzie Fraser, Jem Mackenzie.

[nodorothyparker]

I think for me it's not Willie that's boring, it's the military scenes that are boring. I don't mind Willie when he's not soldiering, and I know from reading some of the Lord John novels and from MOBY that it doesn't matter for me who the soldier is, if a scene is strictly about war or military stuff I just don't care.

 

I'm very much the same.  Looking back, that probably has a lot to do with why I didn't enjoy the Lord John novels very much.  They were very military heavy.  I can tolerate a certain amount of it, but after a point it's all just backdrop to me to whatever else is going between the characters. 

 

Don't know if this truly needs spoiler tags, but I will say I do really like the big battle of Monmouth in MOBY.  I think that's because all the major players are involved and they manage to interact with each other quite a lot and in some rather interesting ways through the course of the day. 

[bearcatfan]

I hope William grows on me, because right now, he irritates the hell out of me, much more than Brianna ever did. I've finished MOBY and he still irritates me.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Egads! This is what happens when I read all the buik threads one right after the other--I get mixed up!

I thought that we would lose Rollo in this buik, but it's in the next one!

I wonder if I need to go back and edit my posts?

 

Ahem.

Great, fictionalized conversations with Ben Franklin. Please, please, tell me we don't get conversations with Benedict Arnold, too!

 

That fucking tool Stebbing is still alive? Gah.

 

But I really loved this line, when Claire was stitching up Jamie, near his clavicle or subclavian or whatever the fuck it's called:

 

"That means," I emphasized, stabbing the needle into his flesh with sufficient force that he yelped, "you must not use your right arm for at least the next forty-eight hours.  You must not haul on ropes, you must not climb rigging, you must not punch people, you must not so much as scratch your arse with your right hand, do you hear me?

 

"I expect the whole ship hears ye," he muttered, but glanced down his cheek, trying to see his collarbone.  "I generally scratch my arse wi' my left hand, anyway."

 

And I just finished the chapter entitled "The Great Dismal." Gah! On to "Purgatory" which I hope doesn't mean I'll feel like I'm in Purgatory while reading it.

[bearcatfan]

The bone is the clavicle. There is an artery underneath it that is called the subclavian artery. Maybe it's the subclavian vein but I think it's an artery. I'm sure about the bone though. Technically both are correct as she's stitching near the bone and the artery.

Edited August 4, 2015 by bearcatfan

[GHScorpiosRule]

The bone is the clavicle. There is an artery underneath it that is called the subclavian artery. Maybe it's the subclavian vein but I think it's an artery. I'm sure about the bone though. Technically both are correct as she's stitching near the bone and the artery.

 

Right. I just couldn't remember the word. And yes, it pierced the artery, which caused all that blood to splatter out like that. If the knife had gone a little bit deeper or to the right or left, Jamie would be dead. His blood clotted, so that was good.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Me: Gaaaaaaah!!!! I'm finally out of Purgatory!!!! Because just like Great Dismal, it was tortuuuuuuuuure. But wait! WAIT! 'Tis Wee Ian!!! And Rollo!!!

 

They made up for it, to be sure. So Wee Ian remembers Willie, but Willie doesn't remember Wee Ian. It's only been seven years, and Willie wasn't a baby. Oh well.

 

Then he was gone and I was sad, and went back to skimming. Because all of the Hunters' thees, thys and thines were getting on my nerves.

 

And I don't care how plot pointy it is, but now I'm waiting for when Willie and Wee Ian and Rollo meet up again.

 

I'm glad Wee Ian finally got some peace.  But of course I feel stupid, and if a kind soul could enlighten me? Is Emily's son, Wee Ian's child? Digger (I forget the full Indian name Wee Ian gave him--something about Great catcher of Lizards?) told Wee Ian he, Digger, had the spirit of his father--not Sun Elk, but the sentence read like it was referring to Wee Ian. Plus the way Wee Ian reacted.

 

And if a great big Bear or snake could come by and just kill Arch Bug, I won't mind.

[bearcatfan]

I'm glad Wee Ian finally got some peace.  But of course I feel stupid, and if a kind soul could enlighten me? Is Emily's son, Wee Ian's child? Digger (I forget the full Indian name Wee Ian gave him--something about Great catcher of Lizards?) told Wee Ian he, Digger, had the spirit of his father--not Sun Elk, but the sentence read like it was referring to Wee Ian. Plus the way Wee Ian reacted.

I couldn't figure that out either. It sounded like she was saying that he was Ian's son, but I thought he was cast out right after she miscarried the last child. If that's the case, he couldn't be. Also, If there was an issue with the Rh factor, it would be highly unlikely. I'm Rh negative myself and had to be tested. We have Rhogam now to prevent the issues that Emily had but it still can happen if there is an unknown pregnancy that miscarries.

[GHScorpiosRule]

I couldn't figure that out either. It sounded like she was saying that he was Ian's son, but I thought he was cast out right after she miscarried the last child. If that's the case, he couldn't be. Also, If there was an issue with the Rh factor, it would be highly unlikely. I'm Rh negative myself and had to be tested. We have Rhogam now to prevent the issues that Emily had but it still can happen if there is an unknown pregnancy that miscarries.

 

Then it wasn't just me! Whew!

 

Speaking of babies, or rather, where they come from, I had to set my Kindle down when I read the part where Wee Ian was asking Claire to look at his swimmers, like she did at Jamie's! Oh I can imagine the pained look on Wee Ian's face when he asked her this. Loved Claire's response. 

[Petunia846]

Then he was gone and I was sad, and went back to skimming. Because all of the Hunters' thees, thys and thines were getting on my nerves.

 

I'm sure it's terrible of me but I can't stand the Hunters. No, I take that back. That's too harsh. I can't get into them. Reading their dialogue does drive me a little crazy, but mostly their personalities just feel so flat.

[GHScorpiosRule]

I'm sure it's terrible of me but I can't stand the Hunters. No, I take that back. That's too harsh. I can't get into them. Reading their dialogue does drive me a little crazy, but mostly their personalities just feel so flat.

 

Petunia, if you're terrible, than so am I. They irk me; Rachel more than Denny.  And I'm cringing because I think

I read in the next book that Wee Ian marries her? or is it Willie? Or is it a different Rachel?

 I dinna like that at all!

 

I think I said this in the John Grey thread, but can someone please explain to me, why DG insists that whenever Lord Grey "meets" a new character, that is a man, that he either is instantly attracted or vice versa? Why must his sexuality be thrust into whatever plot DG is advancing? Instead of learning more about those characters, like Amandine and her fictionalized Franklin, (not that I care, but my caring is not the point), I'm left reading and then skimming passages where Lord Grey feels a "tingling underneath his skin" etc.  It would bug me if it were William or Wee Ian, or if there was a single hetero female character having the same thing happen to him or her as well. Does that make sense?

 

And now we're down to Claire scrubbing down to amputate a foot. Or will it be his leg? up to his calf? thigh? Stay Continuuuuuud...

[sosmitten]

 

It sounded like she was saying that he was Ian's son, but I thought he was cast out right after she miscarried the last child. If that's the case, he couldn't be.

 

 The boy is definitely Sun Elk's son.  I didn't go back and look at the exact words, but it's something about the boy having Ian's 'spirit' or something.  It seemed weird to me that Ian could 'claim' a kid that wasn't his, but that is how I interpreted it.

[nodorothyparker]

I don't care for the Hunters either.  Part of it is that they're just completely too good to be true in absolutely every way and part of it is how much book space they suck up in this and the next book.  There are so many established characters moving around that I have no reason to care about Denzel and Dottie.  All the theeing and thouing also gets tiresome after awhile.

 

I'll also admit to a fair amount of skimming by the time we got to this point because I really just wasn't interested anymore, but I read it as Emily saying the kid was Ian's spiritual rather than biological child.  Whatever that means seems to be a big deal to the Mohawk.

[GHScorpiosRule]

I don't care for the Hunters either.  Part of it is that they're just completely too good to be true in absolutely every way and part of it is how much book space they suck up in this and the next book.  There are so many established characters moving around that I have no reason to care about Denzel and Dottie.  All the theeing and thouing also gets tiresome after awhile.

 

I'll also admit to a fair amount of skimming by the time we got to this point because I really just wasn't interested anymore, but I read it as Emily saying the kid was Ian's spiritual rather than biological child.  Whatever that means seems to be a big deal to the Mohawk.

 

 

I think you mean Denzel and Rachel? Because Dottie is Willie's cousin--Lord John's niece, blah, blah, blah.

 

Okay, got it about Digger being Wee Ian's (sorry, he'll always be Wee Ian tae me!) spirit son. I guess the "spirit" threw me off, because per Wee Ian's 'splanation to Claire, in order for a baby to be born, the father's spirit had to overtake the mother's spirit, and Wee Ian felt his spirit wasn't strong enough--hence the miscarriages and stillbirth.

 

Eeek! Petunia! There is a Petunia mentioned at Fort Ticonderoga! I thought of ye when I read it!

 

I laughed at the tug o' war between Willie and Wee Ian over Claire.  So, not only does Willie look like Jamie, he's a lefty like Jamie, suffers seasickness like Jamie, AND also sounds like Jamie! According to Claire, he's what Jamie would sound like if Jamie didn't have his Scots burr. Ooookay, then. DG's not really trying very hard to tell me how much like Jamie, his son is.

 

And I'm not even skimming the 20th century stuff, guys. I'm totally skipping over them because it's so fucking BORING. Unless I see Claire, Jem, or Jamie's names--I'm not even bothering to skim. Okay, I'm skimming and skipping.

 

So, Fergus is the long-lost grandchild of the baron? And my jaw dropped when Percy said who his father was. The Comte? The Compte? There's got to be more to why suddenly Percival is looking for him. Right? Right????

 

Okay, now I'm going to start noting down how many of the committee who were part of drafting The Declaration of Independence gets a mention: Thus far, we've gotten Adams, Ben and William Franklin, Jefferson, Paine. Who's next? Sherman?

 

I'm at 60%-my Kindle says I've got 12 more hours until I'm done. At the rate I'm skimming and skipping the 20th century and Willie's chapters when it's just him, writing letters to Lord John or military maneuvers, I think I'll be done by the weekend.

 

Please tell me the next buik isn't as exhausting to read.

[nodorothyparker]

No, I mean Dottie.  That particular pairing does absolutely nothing for me.  Just. Don't. Care.

[AD55]

I couldn't get through An Echo in the Bone, not even with skimming/skipping. I doubt I read more than 50-100 pages, and with the exception of the last 10-15, I skimmed the pages I did read. This means there are gaping holes in the plot for me, some of which I have been able to infer from MOBY but many of which require considerable hand-waving. To give an example, I don't even know (or much care)

why Claire and Lord John thought Jamie was dead.

GHScorpiosRule, the spoiler tags are because I'm pretty sure you haven't read to this point.

 

I almost didn't read MOBY, but I'm glad I did because I think it was a return to form. I keep thinking I should return to Echo to fill in the gaps in the plot, but there are many books to read and only so much time.

 

I'm one of the few people who cares about William. I don't think he is always (or even often) well-written, but I have a lot of sympathy for him. Perhaps it's because he is the rare good (by good, I mean not evil) character who has self-doubts and doesn't necessarily behave in ways most people find appealing. His journey interests me, but many of the reasons belong in the MOBY thread.

 

[lianau]

I think people often compare Willie to Jamie and then complain how immature or annoying he is , forgetting that Jamie himself was an idiot at that age . As a teenager Jamie was a smart assed  bully , it's that behavior that results in his beating at age 16 . And Jamie was also born rather privileged (obviously not to the degree as Willie ) . Jamie had to mature rapidly once he met Jack Randall , got flogged and found himself with a price on his head .

 

 

Claire and John

think Jamie and Jenny died because their ship sank , Jamie had send a letter with the ship's name but they missed it and had to take a different one . The ship then was lost  in a storm with everyone on board .

[GHScorpiosRule]

Let me just say again, for clarification that I do not find Willie annoying; nor am I comparing him to Jamie, as in how Jamie was better at that age. What I find boring is the plot with all the military goings on, and the rest. I like Willie.

 

And yes, I am rolling my eyes at how he is described to be just like Jamie, down to his looks, voice, mannerisms, and how he is also prone to seasickness like Jamie.

 

And I don't think spoiler tags are necessary when discussing this buik. Only future ones need to be spoiler tagged.

[Petunia846]

Eeek! Petunia! There is a Petunia mentioned at Fort Ticonderoga! I thought of ye when I read it!

 

Ha! Take a guess as to whether I remember that or not! If you guessed not...ding ding ding.

 

Honestly, reading your review of this book is like hearing it for the first time. There's so very, very little that I remember.

 

I will say, I don't remember the 20th century story in this book, but I LOVED the 20th century story in MOBY, so maybe make sure you skim a little now so you're ready for that. I was super shocked by Bree and Roger and their family's story in MOBY. Like, in a gripping, jaw dropping way. It was actually my favorite part of that book (other than anything that was just interactions between Jamie and Claire).

[AD55]

I think people often compare Willie to Jamie and then complain how immature or annoying he is , forgetting that Jamie himself was an idiot at that age . As a teenager Jamie was a smart assed  bully , it's that behavior that results in his beating at age 16 . And Jamie was also born rather privileged (obviously not to the degree as Willie ) . Jamie had to mature rapidly once he met Jack Randall , got flogged and found himself with a price on his head .

 

 

Claire and John

think Jamie and Jenny died because their ship sank , Jamie had send a letter with the ship's name but they missed it and had to take a different one . The ship then was lost  in a storm with everyone on board .

 

Thanks, Lianau, I'm glad to have that information. You make a good point about the comparisons between William and Jamie. I think I am protective of him in part because, as I recall, characters like Ian compare the two to William's disadvantage. It's difficult to measure up to the King of Men.

 

I'm a history buff, and I'm still bored by all the military details.

 

GHScorposRule, I put that bit in spoiler tags because I really enjoy your sharing your real-time impressions of the books, and I thought I would err on the side of caution in case you didn't want to know upcoming events. Since I couldn't get through the book myself, your posts have been enormously useful, not to mention funny and insightful.

 

I don't know what I would do without the book threads. I read all of the books in about 3 weeks. The first 6 and maybe Echo as well were already out before I discovered them. That's a lot of pages to keep in my sieve brain. Oh for a magpie memory.

[bearcatfan]

I actually don't compare WIllie to Jamie. I compare him more to Brianna, specifically their reactions to Jamie being their biological father. Brianna had a father that she adored and was present in her life for nearly 18 years. She initially was upset to find out that Frank wasn't her biological father but she actually came to terms with it in only a few weeks.

 

Willie has no memories of his father so his reaction is simply because he's a bastard. Yes, I know it's a different time and culture, but he has his step-father and uncle telling him that Jamie is an honorable man and others who respect him even if he's on the opposite side, but he ignores all of that with this whole "woe is me" attitude. When he's not thinking of his paternity I don't find him annoying so I'm hopeful that going forward, he won't be as annoying to me. He's had much longer to come to grips with it than Bree had.

If he hadn't needed Jamie's help to try to rescue Jane, I wonder how long it would have taken before he spoke to Jamie.

 

Am I being unfair to Willie? Perhaps.

Edited August 6, 2015 by bearcatfan

[WatchrTina]

I forgive William all the angst he is going through. He is, after all, a product of his time and his entire world was blown up by Jamie's revelation. He has known three things all his life -- that he was born the Earl of Ellesmere, that his mother and father (actually his aunt and stepfather) who raised him loved him very much, and that as a child he knew and loved (and was loved by) a groom named Mackenzie. In rapid succession he finds out that his whole identity, his whole place in society is a lie. That the groom he loved actually had sex with his sainted dead mother (who it seems was not so sainted after all) -- a sexual liaison that is all the more humiliating in his eyes due to the difference in their social status. Yes, I know Jamie is actually a Scottish Laird but while he was at Helwater he was (to quote William) "the fucking groom!" And he discovers that his "mother and father" and his step-uncle, have all lied to him his entire life. It's a lot to take in.

The fact that William is so tortured by the lie -- the fact that he feels he really doesn't have the right to the title he has borne all his life -- actually reflects well on him. A lesser man might be more focused on ensuring that no one ever found out the truth and making damn sure that his claim to the title was secure. William doesn't know what to do with himself because he feels like a fraud and now, in his hour of greatest turmoil, he can't really turn to his loved ones for comfort or guidance because he feels betrayed by their having lied to him for so long.

So yeah, I forgive him for being a bit of a pill.

Edited August 7, 2015 by WatchrTina

[nodorothyparker]

William actually does have quite a few memories of "Mac," which doesn't really help him any because when he finally connects those memories with Jamie, it's just one more person he sees as having lied to him.  Sure, a lot of his anger is about not officially being a bastard only by a technicality and as he calls it, "his taint of Scottish blood" instead of being a pure English blue blood.  But a lot of it is also about his sense that everybody knew and everybody lied to him, as well as the realization that rather than being the orphan that he thought Jamie had been in and out of his life and bouncing around the edges the whole time.

 

Brianna took several years to finally decide to go back and look for her parents even after learning the truth.  She consciously made the decision to try to meet Jamie and she did it when she was ready.  William got no choice in the matter and learned the truth only because he finally came face to face with the man and no one could get themselves together enough to come up with another story to tell him.

 

Spoilering the whole thing because I can't figure out how to separate what's in this book with what's in MOBY.

[bearcatfan]

If it was only his initial reaction that lasted a few months, I would get it. It's not though. He holds onto this anger and disgust for

about a year and a half. It's not only towards Jamie, it's toward everyone who knew.

It's not unforgivable but it's damn annoying and not particularly healthy for William either. Others disagree and that's fine. No one is going to change my mind about it.

He only relented somewhat because he needed Jamie's help. He has more empathy towards an admitted whore and murderer than his own father who he had good memories of before he knew he was his father. I actually like his interactions with Jane and Fanny and think it speaks well of him, but the fact that it takes an act of desperation to even speak to Jamie is a strike against him in my book. Especially since it took so long.

 

 

I edited because I sounded a bit confrontational which was not my intention. I just don't want to keep discussing it because I understand why he acts the way he does, I just don't care why so there's no need to continue to try to explain it to me.

Edited August 7, 2015 by bearcatfan

[nodorothyparker]

The bulk of MOBY where all of this takes place only covers about a five-month period, from June to November-December 1778.  And that's with a war and a whole lot of traveling back and forth going on.  To be fair, he does manage to pack quite a bit of brooding into that relatively short amount of time.

[GHScorpiosRule]

GHScorposRule, I put that bit in spoiler tags because I really enjoy your sharing your real-time impressions of the books, and I thought I would err on the side of caution in case you didn't want to know upcoming events. Since I couldn't get through the book myself, your posts have been enormously useful, not to mention funny and insightful.

Oh, don't worry about spoiling me-like I've posted in each buik thread, I'm a spoiler whore and have read all of them, so I know what's coming, and find it interesting, from the discussions, what huge plots weren't discussed!

 

Aww, thanks! Truly, I'm just posting, blathering away, right after I've read a few chapters, so I don't even think how can I post this--I'm going straight from my emotions, blah, blah, blah.

[bearcatfan]

You're right, it only 5 - 6 months. I saw the 1779 date and thought it was December not January for some reason.

 

I still find him annoying but I don't hate him. I trust I will find him less annoying as he interacts with Jamie more often and realizes that Jamie's not a heathen. I know he doesn't realize this now, but he's lucky Jamie's his dad and not Ellesmere. Very brief glimpse of him in Voyager but what a horrid man!

[GHScorpiosRule]

Noooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Jamie loses his finger! Well, I suppose it was probably a good thing, since it's been causing him so much pain over the years. No lie--I SKIPPED the entire description of how Claire amputated it. I did.not.need.to.know.the.details.  I really didn't. So, erm, for those that read it through, how much of his finger was left, or none? Because I do recall reading how Jamie thought it weird that his pinky and middle finger now touched. {shudders}.

 

And let's add "rebel whoreson" to the list of things to describe Jamie.

 

I knew, just knew there was a reason for seeing more of Rob Cameron and his reaction to hearing that Bree spoke Gaelic. And then reading

"Rob fucking Cameron" happened...that he is somehow responsible for bad things happening? Almost happening to Jemmy and Mandy?

It's disheartening that so few people turn out to be good people who can be friends.

 

Now I'm wondering who that Lowland-Scots arsehole is who approached Claire and spit in her kettle. Please, please, not another time traveler.

 

And Wee Ian! You can do so much better than Rachel with her thees and thous.  Plus you deserve so much better.

Edited August 7, 2015 by GHScorpiosRule

[CalamityBoPeep]

Jamie loses his finger! Well, I suppose it was probably a good thing, since it's been causing him so much pain over the years. No lie--I SKIPPED the entire description of how Claire amputated it. I did.not.need.to.know.the.details.  I really didn't. So, erm, for those that read it through, how much of his finger was left, or none? Because I do recall reading how Jamie thought it weird that his pinky and middle finger now touched. {shudders}.

 

Heh.  This one particular surgery, I found pretty fascinating.  I don't know why exactly, because usually I'm pretty squeamish about them. I think it was the idea that Claire was so determined to leave Jamie a fully functioning hand, and the "how" of it.

 

Anyway... she took his finger all the way back into the bones in the hand area. (Can't remember if she did it from the palm side or from the back, but I think it was the palm.)  She snipped and tied off tendons and brought everything that remained closer together so that all the remaining fingers would work with their full range of motion.  

 

It was really pretty cool. LOL ;-)

[Laurie]

Well if William has angst now imagine his reaction if/when he figures out the nature of Lord John's lifestyle and that Lord John is in love with his biological father.

[bearcatfan]

Well if William has angst now imagine his reaction if/when he figures out the nature of Lord John's lifestyle and that Lord John is in love with his biological father.

True although I would have to think someone is going to have to tell him because I doubt that WIlliam thinks about his step-father's sex life at all. Probably an enemy of William's or Lord John's.

 

I have to think that the fact that Ellesmere threatened to kill William as a baby will come out too but I hope not. As much as he annoys me at times that is something he does not need to know.

[nodorothyparker]

I think its in the next book that William briefly contemplates that John and Claire were married and thus probably had sex and wonders if Jamie would kill John over it while John's missing.

 We know that John took William to his first brothel when he became curious and that in William's own recollection John has always been embarrassingly frank about sex.  I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that John's embarrassing frankness was strictly limited to traditional heterosexual sex though.  I'm also going to guess that any discussion was more in the abstract and carefully avoided any mention of William's long-dead stepmother/aunt because of the can of worms that could be about John's motivations for marrying her.

 

The thing about all this is that Bree does know about all of it:  John being gay, John being in love with Jamie and being largely motivated by that love to raise William, and that Jamie killed Ellesmere to prevent him from tossing newborn William out that window.  Because John told her.  I could very well see any or all these things coming out in their inevitable meeting if William proves frustrating enough in refusing to let some of his anger go. 

[WatchrTina]

 

The thing about all this is that Bree does know about all of it:  John being gay, John being in love with Jamie and being largely motivated by that love to raise William, and that Jamie killed Ellesmere to prevent him from tossing newborn William out that window.  Because John told her.

Are you sure John told Bree about Ellesmere nearly tossing infant William out the window and Jamie killing Ellesmere to save him?  I know she knows about all the other stuff but I don't recall that tale being shared.  I feel certain John was told what happened in that room but I suspect that after Geneva and her husband were buried and the coach driver was pensioned off Geneva's family and John never ever spoke of the Earl's death again. Do you specifically recall John telling Bree about it? 

[GHScorpiosRule]

No, John wasn't there when Ellesmere threatened to throw William out the window and Jamie shot him; I believe he told Bree he wasn't there; It's all a blur; but I think in this book, he and Percy had the same conversation, and he said he didn't know if Jamie and Geneva had been lovers or what happened--just that Jamie was William's father. And that both of William's parents died when William was born.

 

But no one other than Jamie, Geneva's parents and that one footman? who was paid off, know what took place in that study.

[WatchrTina]

I suspect that John knows that Jamie killed Ellesmere.  There was a fair amount of weirdness surrounding the funeral, some of which is revealed in one of the Lord John novels. I can't recall which books the following info is from so I'll slip behind the spoiler bars just in case.  

Jamie is asked to serve as one of the Earl's pall-bearers (along with other big, burly servants) at the double funeral for Geneva and the Earl that Geneva's parents stage to show that there was nothing at all suspicious in the death of the Earl.  The public story is that he died  by "misadventure" while showing a gun to Geneva's father.  The semi-public story (presumed by most people) is that the Earl killed himself -- shot himself -- from grief when Geneva died -- an act that polite society agrees to ignore because if it became common knowledge he could not have been buried in hallowed ground and there is even a possibility that the Crown could seize the estate.  Suicide is a crime -- John's own father was suspected of suicide and Hal's title as Duke of Pardloe was at risk as a result.  Only Jamie, the other coach driver and Geneva's parents know the real story but there are still plenty of suspicions floating around and there is a very weird vibe at the funeral.  None of the other servants will sit near Jamie, nor even look at him.  Everyone at Helwater suspects there is more to the story than is being told and that Jamie was somehow involved.  Jeffrey (the other coachman) may, in fact, have told all the servant what happened.  John actually catches Jamie keeping vigil in the chapel with Geneva's dead body the night before the funeral -- lying on the cold stone floor in naught but his shirt (like he was required to do as penance at his uncle's abby when he took the lord's name in vain.) Meanwhile, John sees that Geneva's parents, who previously had been quite devoted to one another, can barely stand to be in the same room.  It isn't until later that John figures out Jamie is William's father but he knows something is up with regard to the death of both Geneva and the Earl and given his obsession with Jamie I feel absolutely certain that he would not rest until he uncovered the truth.  I assume at some point Geneva's parents told John the truth or they told Geneva's sister, who told John after he married her. 

 

ETA:  Changed a few items behind the spoiler bars based on the later re-reading.

Edited August 8, 2015 by WatchrTina

[bearcatfan]

I was thinking the other footman could come into play about it but unless Geneva's mother told Isobel, who told Lord John, I don't think Lord John knows.

[nodorothyparker]

It's in Breath of Snow and Ashes when Bree and Roger stumble upon William and John. John knows the story from Isobel who got it from her mother. He does specifically tell the story of Jamie killing Ellesmere to prevent him dropping William because he knew William wasn't his. He just doesn't know many of the particulars beyond that.

[WatchrTina]

Okay, I had to break out the book.  In Voyager it's made clear that the Earl is angry about Geneva's pregnancy and has railed about it in the house, giving all the servants to understand that he believes the child is not his (the Earl's servants tell this to Jamie and Jeffries (the other groom) while they warm themselves in the kitchen after the long, wet drive.)  So none of the Earl's servants believe that the Earl took his own life because he was distraught over Geneva's death (this is the sanitized ruling of "death by misadventure" that is issued by the coroner's court.)   On the day the court met the books says "The other grooms had kept their distance from [Jamie] all morning.  Not out of respect; out of the dread for one who suffers from a deadly disease.  Jeffries knew what had happened in the drawing room at Ellesmere, and that meant all the servants knew.  But no one spoke of it."

 

If all the servants knew what actually went down, then it seems clear that Isobel (Geneva's sister) would know -- she would have learned it from her maid if not from her parents) and it is revealed in the Lord John books that John has a VERY capable valet.  He would have found out the scuttlebutt from the servants and told John, even if Geneva's parents or Isobel did not tell him.

 

So . . . bringing this back to Book 7, the subject of this thread . . . I think it's clear that John knows that Jamie killed the Earl to save William's life.  But I remain unconvinced that John told that story to Bree.  Yes it is a thrilling tale -- one that casts Jamie in a heroic light.  But it is also a tragic tale about William's mother and her horrible, doomed marriage.  John loves William like a son and I'm not sure he would share that very personal, very sad story without a very good reason.  Plus, John loves and respects Jamie and it's really Jamie's story to tell or not tell to his own daughter.  So unless someone can't point me to place in the book that says John did tell Bree, I'm sticking with the theory that that Bree does not know the whole story of Jamie's role in the Earl's death.  For that matter, I'm not sure Claire knows it either.

 

ETA:  Aaaand apparently I'm wrong.  Thanks nodorothyparker.  Do you remember the context of that conversation?  Why does John tell Bree?  And surely he doesn't tell the story in front of William -- because Williams doesn't find out he's a bastard until that fateful meeting with Jamie in book 7.

Edited August 8, 2015 by WatchrTina

[nodorothyparker]

I had to break out the book too to be certain. The conversation happens after William leaves to go do whatever army thing he does and John confirms that yes, William is indeed Jamie's son. It's told as an evolving story about HOW William is the 9th earl and that the 8th earl died the day he was born.

I've always found one of the more interesting details about John being his willingness and his apparent need to use the Fraser women as his confessors. I mean, when you really think about it that entire conversation in DOA when John refuses Bree because of her resemblance to Jamie and admits his attraction and affection but that Jamie "wouldn't" is a pretty inappropriate thing to be telling the man's daughter. But then Claire and Bree are maybe the only people who love Jamie the way he does and maybe the only people who can truly understand.  He also doesn't really have anyone else he can talk about any of this with.  My sense of Hal has always been that he very strongly suspects John has had a more than casual interest in Jamie and his life but really doesn't want to pursue it.

Edited August 8, 2015 by nodorothyparker

[WatchrTina]

nodorothyparker Can you tell me the chapter?

And yes I agree it's very interesting that the Fraser family can speak openly about John's sexuality but Hal and the rest of John's family are firmly in don't-ask-don't-tell land. As someone up-thread already said, when William finds out that John is homosexual and that he married Isobel solely to ensure that he could look after William --a duty he took on out of love for Jamie -- well poor William is going to be knocked for yet another loop.

Edited August 8, 2015 by WatchrTina

[nodorothyparker]

Chapter 116. The Ninth Earl of Ellesmere. It's William's only appearance in that book.

I don't know that I'd call it speaking openly as much as it's an open secret among the Frasers.

[GHScorpiosRule]

I can't recall the chapter, but John tells Bree, because Bree sees William and is incensed that she wasn't told about him, because he's a ringer for Jamie, other than the color of his hair. And thinking that Jamie did cheat on Claire.  John tells Bree it happened while he was on parole at Helwater, so Bree calms down somewhat at that, realizing it happened when Claire was in Boston.

 

BUT, if you recall in one of my rants--about how Bree refuses to understand why William cannot be told who is biological father is, even after John explains to her--Jamie has that conversation with her "OFFSCREEN" and we're told, actually Jamie tells John, while they are watching Bree, William, Jemmy, Roger and baby Mandy saying good-bye, that he spoke to Bree and she will keep the secret.

 

ETA: Also, John doesn't know how/why Jamie and Geneva had a tryst or if it was a relationship. Just that William is Jamie's child, and not the Earl's.

Edited August 8, 2015 by GHScorpiosRule

[nodorothyparker]

There's a couple of places throughout the series where it really rankles for big conversations to be happening offpage and this is the biggest for me too.

[WatchrTina]

Okay I just re-read chapters 116 - 118.  Aw.  I love these characters.  I even love Bree even though chapter 116 is a great example of her being presumptuous and annoying and a creature from another time -- as usual.  And poor Lord John -- he just doesn't know what to make of of her when she insists that of course it is time to tell William who his father is!  I love Lord John, never more so than when he pre-empts a good bit of Bree's high-handedness when he responds to her question about how the 8th Earl died by saying:

 

"Gunshot," he said with affected cheerfulness.  "Your father shot him."

I loved that moment (which I had completely forgotten).  And of course nodorthyparker is correct that in the chapter that follows John tells Bree the whole story (William has already left and Roger has gone as well -- at John's urging -- to warn Jamie lest he run into William on the street and have people -- or William -- notice the resemblance.)

 

What a funny, poignant, entertaining set of chapters. It's interesting that I had forgotten the conversation between John and Bree about William in chapter 116 but the scene in chapter 118 has always stuck in my mind -- the scene of John and Jamie in John's rooms, looking down at Bree and William on the street below (Bree wants to show her children to William before she leaves to go back to the 20th century -- that was her price for her NOT telling William about his parentage).  Poor Jamie -- looking down at the daughter he is about to lose and the son he can never claim.  It's hear-breaking.  And yet when you compare that moment to Jamie's situation during those 20 years  when he was separated from Claire, never knowing if his wife and child survived childbirth (or the trip through the stones for that matter) and quite sure that he will never see his son again -- well when you think back on that, then the heartbreak of that scene in John's room is a bit easier to bear.  He has his wife back, he knows and loves not just his daughter but his son-in-law and his two grandchildren, he has spent time in the company of his teenaged son and now he has glimpsed his grown son who is "the spit of him."

 

As for the book NOT including the scene between Bree and her father where she agrees to not tell William -- I don't mind that being left out.  We know what he said -- we the readers understand the situation better than Bree -- so I don't mind not reading that argument.  I presume Diana thought it would have been redundant -- just as the long, unseen conversation between Jamie and Claire in book one where she explains about the time-travel would have been a re-hash for the reader. I know those off-screen conversations are missed by many people but I am fine with it.  

 

 

I don't know that I'd call it speaking openly as much as it's an open secret among the Frasers.

Well Jamie and Claire certainly don't talk about John's sexuality to anyone else -- that would have been a terrible betrayal -- but I do recall an awkward conversation between them in one of the books when John sends a young man to Claire for treatment of an unknown malady.  He has worms and it makes him faint but no one has figured that out yet.  However on the way to Frasers Ridge his hemorrhoids act up and so there is initially a misunderstanding with Claire thinking THAT's the matter than John wanted her to treat.  There a fairly awful moment when she speculates to Jamie that John wants that matter attended to because John wants to have a sexual relationship with the young man.  I HATE that speculation.  It is not one of Claire's finer moments (did I mention I love Lord John) and I'm glad when it gets cleared up.  But she and Jamie do discuss the possibility.

Edited August 9, 2015 by WatchrTina

[GHScorpiosRule]

FUCK! My computer ate my post!

Let me see if I can remember what I wrote.

 

FINALLY.DONE.

 

Out of all the buiks I've read in this series to date, this one is my LEAST favorite.  And it's probably due to all the military stuff, the Hunters, and the stupid, big SEKRIT! being that the reason why Willie lied to Lord John about being in wuv with Dottie was because she wanted to come to the Colonies to "prove" to Denny, she was willing to be a Quaker or whatever.

 

And add me to the list of those that stated that the ending of this buik was the best--that is from the moment Jamie was thought dead, to him showing up alive.

 

I had no problem with how Willie reacted to learning that Jamie was his biological father. None.   And also what he said to Willie when Willie finally sees him face to face in the light (and I've read the comments and discussion and debate over why Jamie revealed the truth) and I didn't see any anger or bitterness from Jamie. Why he said it so bluntly? After everything that happened, the times he's tried to avoid him, I took it as Jamie seeing it as why not just tell him? Telling Willie he was "a Stinking Papist" straight out, I think, was Jamie's way of reminding Willie who he, Jamie was to Wee Willie, to maybe soften the blow of the elephant in the room? And things just went crazy after that, what with the crashing of the soldiers.

 

 

 

And speaking of which, I wanted to see and read that scene where Jamie tells Bree to keep her big mouth shut. If only because she still thinks Willie should be told, just like she thinks that Buccleigh should be told who his parents were, until Roger shuts her down. Yet, she won't let go of why Willie shouldn't be.  Knowing Bree as we I do, I just know she would have used her 20th century logic against Jamie. I wanted to read what he had to say to her to ensure her silence. It would not have been redundant to me, as it would be coming from Jamie, who we know has loved Willie all these years, and how it has pained him to keep the secret.  And it's not the same as when Claire tells Jamie where she's from, because as another poster stated, we saw it--her emotions, her stuttering, walking back and forth as she told Jamie, even if it wasn't through actual dialogue. I needed to read the dialogue, because I wanted to see Bree get SHUT.DOWN. because she acts and talks like everything, every situation is the same, which it is not.

 

And the sub-sub-sub-sub plot of Rob Cameron kidnapping Jemmy has got to be the most stooopidest, lamest, ridonkulous plot ever. Just what was the point of it? To have Roger, Bree, Jemmy and Mandy return to the past? And for gold? Yeah, let's have this jerkwad, who I didn't like from the get go and suspected, go rifling through his boss's personal papers, because he's a greedy bastard and wants to get rich quick or whatever.

 

And also agree with those that there were so many cliffhangers.

 

Like Arch Bug. Is he dead now? Please let him be dead? He is an example of the worst character assassination ever.  And no, I don't buy that he went crazy after his wife's death, because both were guilty. And Murdina was getting ready to kill Jamie when she was killed herself.  I held my breath thinking that he managed to kill Rollo, then let it out when I saw Rollo was safe.

 

Please let it be Willie who killed him and that was what he was starting to say to Claire when he saw Jamie.

 

And leaving Jemmy trapped in that tunnel cave. Does he save himself? Does Roger? Will Roger and Buccleigh go back to the past to see if Jemmy is there? Will Bree save her son? (Aye, I'm sounding like the narrator of the '60s Batman show with these questions!)

 

And I know and realize that this series is not all about butterflies and rainbows, but I don't like seeing so many good characters killed off. Like IAN. What was the point? Except to have Jenny move to America now that he was gone? To see and read his suffering?  And the near-misses with Rollo?  It's like the characters I care about can only have happiness for short bits of time, and gain said happiness at the expense of the deaths of other characters.

 

And I know I'm all over the place and talking about stuff out of order, but Bree did not tell John what she was. What she told him, when she wanted Willie to know the truth was that she was going away and "never coming back."  Unless of course, she told him off the page, because when Claire told Lord John, or asked him, Bree told you what we were or something like that, he acknowledged that she had. But she didn't!  And again it was to prove that Claire was right about England losing this war, and Lord John saying he'll act as if he does believe her or whatever it was that he said that was posted up thread.

 

So naturally I want to read the last one, but I'm not paying $11 to read it. So off I go to my library to see if I can check it ouut.

 

I know there is other stuff I've left out, but my brain is overstuffed just now.

 

ETA: BOO!  It's not available to check out. Grrrrr....

Edited August 10, 2015 by GHScorpiosRule

[WatchrTina]

 

I wanted to read what [Jamie] had to say to her to ensure her silence . . . <snip> . . . because I wanted to see Bree get SHUT.DOWN. because she acts and talks like everything, every situation is the same, which it is not.

Ah. Okay.  This is an emotion I can get behind.  Yes I agree that seeing Jamie shut down Bree when she goes off half-cocked without thinking about the ramifications of her actions on other people IN THE CONTEXT OF THE CURRENT TIME would be very satisfying.  Carry on wishing you had seen that then.  :)

 

 

Like Arch Bug. Is he dead now? Please let him be dead? He is an example of the worst character assassination ever.

Weel I have to disagree there.  One of these book discussion boards recently provoked me into re-reading the whole Claire-gets-kidnapped-and-gang-raped section of an earlier book and I was very interested to re-read the scene where Arch Bug walks in with an axe, bares his neck and offers his life in recompense for his wife's killing of Jamie's prisoner.  Jamie's first reaction is the scoff at the man, assuming he's just making a point by being dramatic but then it becomes clear that Arch really is offering up his life in accordance with the old traditions -- traditions he still follows -- traditions that are very much steeped in the belief that honor and vengeance are closely intermingled.  I loved re-reading that, knowing what was to come.  It is a very early hint about Arch's belief system that Diana gives us there, well before Arch shows his true, vengeance-crazed colors.  So I don't think Arch's character was assassinated.  I think it was revealed.

 

 

I know I'm all over the place and talking about stuff out of order, but Bree did not tell John what she was. What she told him, when she wanted Willie to know the truth was that she was going away and "never coming back."  Unless of course, she told him off the page, because when Claire told Lord John, or asked him, Bree told you what we were or something like that, he acknowledged that she had. But she didn't!

I've asked this question before and people have assured me that Bree does tell John about being a time-traveler but I think they said it happened in an earlier book, during the period when John was considering marrying the pregnant Bree, in order to give her child a name (Roger has gone missing at this point.)  I honestly do not recall that scene (maybe it happened "off camera"?) but others have assured me it happened.  Diana is certainly convinced that it happened because, as you point out, John and Claire discuss it in this book.

Edited August 9, 2015 by WatchrTina

[GHScorpiosRule]

Ah. Okay.  This is an emotion I can get behind.  Yes I agree that Jamie shutting down Bree when she goes off half-cocked without thinking about the ramifications of her actions on other people IN THE CONTEXT OF THE CURRENT TIME would be very satisfying.  Carry on wishing you had seen that then.  :)

 

Weel I have to disagree there.  One of these book discussion boards recently provoked me into re-reading the whole Claire-gets-kidnapped-and-gang-raped section of an earlier book and I was very interested to re-read the scene where Arch Bug walks in with an axe, bares his neck and offers his life in recompense for his wife's killing of Jamie's prisoner.  Jamie's first reaction is the scoff at the man, assuming he's just making a point by being dramatic but then it becomes clear that Arch really is offering up his life in accordance with the old traditions -- traditions he still follows -- traditions that are very much steeped in the belief that honor and vengeance are closely intermingled.  I loved re-reading that, knowing what was to come.  It is a very early hint that Diana gives us well before Arch shows his true, vengeance-crazed colors.  So I don't think Arch's character was assassinated.  I think it was revealed.

 

Assassination may be the wrong word, but demonizing is a better one, considering how he was portrayed prior to Claire's kidnapping and then at the end. And also learning he was the one threatening Jocasta as well.  So I didn't like it. But I guess the point of it was, that he hid his true colors very well, and DG did a good job of not letting us see it. Unlike with Malva, Murdina (who I suspected as well from day one with her attitude and when she killed Lionel-something didn't ring true) and now Rob.

 

And then to have it explained through Claire's eyes that Murdina's death made him insane. What rot.

[WatchrTina]

 

And the sub-sub-sub-sub plot of Rob Cameron kidnapping Jemmy has got to be the most stooopidest, lamest, ridonkulous plot ever. Just what was the point of it? To have Roger, Bree, Jemmy and Mandy return to the past? 

In a word:  

Yes.  Sort of.  It's complicated.

 

Now just count your blessings that you can go straight into the next book.  I came to the series about a year before book 8 was released so I had become accustomed to being able to just dive straight into the next book when I finished books 1 through 6.  "What cliffhangers?" quoth I.  "I spit on your cliffhangers!"  Aaaaand then I got to the end of Book 7.  Jemmy is locked in a dark cave, Roger and Buck have gone in search of him (in vain) in the past, and Rob F**king Cameron is stalking Brianna.  Oh.  My.  God.  That's the cliffhanger I found at the end of a seven-book binge?  That just KILLED me.  Lucky you to get to dive right in to MOBY.  Enjoy!

Edited August 9, 2015 by WatchrTina

[GHScorpiosRule]

I ken! And now that I know it's not available to check out from my library, I'm going tae make a liar out of myself and buying the damned thing.  Since the end of Echo gave me a preview of the first four chapters.