Diana

[DanaK]

Quote

In a night packed with strength, courage, and female empowerment, CNN Original Series will debut the new six-part series Diana at 9pm ET/PT, followed by the return of the award-winning This is Life with Lisa Ling at 10pm ET/PT. Diana, produced by October Films, re-examines the life of an icon through the lens of modernity: reframing her story to discover the real woman behind the "People's Princess". Drawing on a new generation of voices, including interviews from those close to her, the series is a fresh take that reveals a princess unlike any other. A woman more complex than history has acknowledged and a feminist role model who showed vulnerability and strength, Diana was truly a blueprint for the modern woman.

Debuts October 10, 2021

[Frost]

If the first episode had followed the script of the description above, I would have turned it off after 5 minutes.  St Diana is not an interesting narrative.  I was pleasantly surprised.  It seems to be a balanced view so far.  It juxtaposed her awful childhood (I wasn't aware that her father would slap her mother across the face in view of their children) and Charles' (how solitary and alone he was as a child).  It seems that a number of people thought their emotional issues would bond them together.  Of course, neither of them ended up capable of supporting the other's emotional neediness.  I'm interested enough to watch episode 2.

[CountryGirl]

While I am very much Team Diana, I appreciate the balanced take thus far.

It's such a shame that Diana and Charles couldn't bond over their decidedly troubled childhoods (Diana's, especially, with her father physically abusing her mother and her mother leaving, although I didn't realize Frances intended to keep the children but wasn't allowed custody). But I think the differences between them couldn't be overcome.

It's also eyeroll inducing that the BRF expected Charles to marry a virgin, instead of a woman with whom he was actually in love. Whether that was Camilla, who was not interested in marrying him anyway as she was gaga over Andrew Parker Bowles, or someone else, but that should have been his choice.

I'll be watching the rest of this. 

[Dr.OO7]

1 hour ago, CountryGirl said:

I'll be watching the rest of this

So will I.

1 hour ago, CountryGirl said:

It's also eyeroll inducing that the BRF expected Charles to marry a virgin

How unbelievably embarrassing that the entire world knows this about you.

[Lady Whistleup]

8 hours ago, Frost said:

If the first episode had followed the script of the description above, I would have turned it off after 5 minutes.  St Diana is not an interesting narrative.  I was pleasantly surprised.  It seems to be a balanced view so far.  It juxtaposed her awful childhood (I wasn't aware that her father would slap her mother across the face in view of their children) and Charles' (how solitary and alone he was as a child).  It seems that a number of people thought their emotional issues would bond them together.  Of course, neither of them ended up capable of supporting the other's emotional neediness.  I'm interested enough to watch episode 2.

I think in the beginning their emotional troubles did sort of bond them together. I think for the first few years their marriage wasn't ideal but still fell into the "reasonably happy" category. Yes Charles had Camila but he did seem devoted to the idea of having a close family with Diana. Both of them seemed to want to be the kind of parents that their own parents were not. 

But eventually I think two people that needy, that insecure, and totally without anything in their toolbox to make themselves happy were doomed to misery.

[Grrarrggh]

On 10/12/2021 at 11:15 PM, Lady Whistleup said:

I think in the beginning their emotional troubles did sort of bond them together. I think for the first few years their marriage wasn't ideal but still fell into the "reasonably happy" category. Yes Charles had Camila but he did seem devoted to the idea of having a close family with Diana. Both of them seemed to want to be the kind of parents that their own parents were not. 

But eventually I think two people that needy, that insecure, and totally without anything in their toolbox to make themselves happy were doomed to misery.

Charles didn't "have" Camilla until at least 5 years into his marriage. And I have no idea why the RF and Di's family thought the two would be a good match. Their personalities and basics interests were so different, and not in an opposites attract kind of way. Diana was much too immature and Charles was set in his way after more than a decade of the bachelor life. Not to mention they barely knew each other. 

Charles did have tools in his emotional toolbox, he just wasn't allowed to take them out and use them. 

[Frost]

Episode 2 was aggravating.  Why on earth is the annoying Julie Montagu getting so much screen time?  She's an American who is much too young to have ever known Diana.  Even as a Viscountess I don't think she runs in the same circles as Camilla or Charles so it's not like she has inside information.  She's also not a writer or journalist who's studied the Royal Family for years.  Hearing her state with conviction what Diana was feeling or thinking during certain times is utterly ridiculous.  

And calling Camilla a 'mean girl' for communicating with Diana seems a salacious projection.  At the time of the engagement, Camilla was an ex-girlfriend who by all accounts genuinely cared deeply for Charles and wanted him to be happy.  I can see Diana not wanting to hang out with her fiance's/husband's ex-girlfriend.  But wasn't "let's all be friends" the preferred state of things back then? 

I'm also wondering if Diana is such a country girl, like she states in one of the voice overs, did she hate Balmoral and Highgrove so much?   I'm sure it's impossible, but it would be nice to have a counter-point to Diana's interview tapes.  Not that she's lying, but wouldn't her memories be tainted by what she was feeling at the time of the taping?   By that time, they were both having affairs and seeing Charles getting back with Camilla when she was unable to find a comparable love for herself must have been a bitter pill.  

[Crankybroad]

On 10/18/2021 at 11:51 AM, Frost said:

Episode 2 was aggravating.  Why on earth is the annoying Julie Montagu getting so much screen time?  She's an American who is much too young to have ever known Diana.  Even as a Viscountess I don't think she runs in the same circles as Camilla or Charles so it's not like she has inside information.  She's also not a writer or journalist who's studied the Royal Family for years.  Hearing her state with conviction what Diana was feeling or thinking during certain times is utterly ridiculous.  

THIS is making me want to kick my television. How is she an expert on Diana? What credibility does she have?? Why is she being given this platform? She didn’t know her. How would she know anything???

[Dr.OO7]

Another excellent episode. This is very thorough.

I didn't know Diana cheated first.

Not that I condone Charles' adultery, but I always found it unfair that he was maligned for ONE affair, while Diana's multiple indiscretions were glossed over. I've never liked that double standard about cheating--if the man cheats, it's his fault, if the woman cheats, it's. . .his fault.

That said, it's painful to watch poor Diana pull out all the stops to impress Charles and be the perfect royal wife and have it all fall flat or backfire on her.

If she hadn't married Charles, I think she would have made an excellent teacher/social worker. She loved kids and had an incredibly natural way with them.

Edited October 25, 2021 by Dr.OO7

[Frost]

Julie Montagu is still annoying.  Otherwise, I thought this episode was very interesting.  I didn't know Diana had an affair with a member of her security staff that early on in the marriage.  It is so difficult because we hear over and over again that Charles was the love of Diana's life, but she was only 19 when they started dating so it really seems more like an infatuation.  I mean, from her POV, it was more like a high school or college romance and nobody expects those to last.  I feel sorry for her in that respect.  I don't think she really knew what "love" was because of her lack of experience.  Whereas Charles did understand real love (with Camilla) but was unable to fulfill it at that time.  

It turned into such a soap opera because each of them truly needed someone who 100% had their back and that they could depend on for support.  But that kind of couple means the other person has to be the rock.  Both of them being emotionally needy was a recipe for a failed marriage.  And both of them reacted in a way to make the other more miserable.  Diana appears to have been more clingy and Charles became more distant.  Which guaranteed that they would drive each other away.  I know Diana is the more tragic figure because of her death, but it must have been a rotten experience for them both.

I'm glad Charles finally got together with his soul-mate and I wish Diana had been able to find a soul-mate of her own.

[Grrarrggh]

12 hours ago, Dr.OO7 said:

If she hadn't married Charles, I think she would have made an excellent teacher/social worker. She loved kids and had an incredibly natural way with them.

Maaaayybe when she hit her late 30s or 40s, but she didn't want to or expect to work. She wanted a husband and children (who then were also raised by nannies and boarding schools). Maybe after she divorced her first or second husband she'd realise she needed to do more with her life. But it would have taken awhile to get to that point for her. An "excellent teacher/social worker" needs more than just a way with children. Plus, this isn't a dig at Diana but aside from the two she nannied for a bit, her year or so of being a TA and her own sons, who had nannies and boarding schools, she didn't spend time with children, especially not the way teachers and other professionals do.

[Frost]

10 hours ago, Grrarrggh said:

An "excellent teacher/social worker" needs more than just a way with children.

She would also have needed quite a bit more schooling!  Diana famously didn't pass her O-Levels at 16 and then went on to a Swiss finishing school so from a US standpoint, she wouldn't be a high school graduate.  Not that I think Diana was stupid, she just obviously had no interest in formal education.

[MadyGirl1987]

Watching the latest episode and one quote from Diana stuck out at me. She said she hoped Charles would go off with Camilla and leave her William and Harry to be the Wales’. Then William would become King. Am I the only person who finds that kinda naive and unaware of how royalty works. Someone please correct me if I’m wrong, but I am sure if Charles abdicated his whole line would be taken out of the line of succession.

[Frost]

12 hours ago, MadyGirl1987 said:

Watching the latest episode and one quote from Diana stuck out at me. She said she hoped Charles would go off with Camilla and leave her William and Harry to be the Wales’. Then William would become King. Am I the only person who finds that kinda naive and unaware of how royalty works. Someone please correct me if I’m wrong, but I am sure if Charles abdicated his whole line would be taken out of the line of succession.

I don't know if she was naïve, but that certainly sounds arrogant.  Diana believed she and her young sons were more capable of being State leaders than Charles?  Also, if Charles made the decision to drop out of the line of succession, that doesn't mean William or Harry are dropped.  They just move up one spot.

[Dr.OO7]

At this point, I can't decide which one of them was the worse spouse. Charles was cheating with Camilla for so long she was essentially the second wife, while I actually lost count of the number of lovers Diana had. 

That shot of them standing next to each other yet pointedly refusing to hold hands is painful (all I could think of was the polar opposite shot of Harry and Meghan holding hands at their wedding). In fact, in most of their pictures, the body language makes you wince.

[Dr.OO7]

I felt such an impending sense of doom watching tonight's episode every time the date was posted onscreen. 

There are so many agonizing "if only"'s about that dreadful night.

[Frost]

Although I never believed the story put about by Dodi's father about their imminent engagement, I didn't realize Diana and Dodi had only been together for four weeks.  It makes the proposal scenario even more unlikely. 

I think the show did a real disservice to those suffering from mental illness.  Bulimia, cutting, and throwing oneself down the stairs are signs of mental illness.  It doesn't mean Diana was "crazy."   I know there's a stigma now, and there was an even greater stigma in the '80s and '90s, about mental illness, which is why I think it's a shame CNN didn't add a commentator to do a little education on the subject.  Diana both complained about the palace making her meet with therapists and ignoring her issues.  Maybe there weren't good therapist-patient matches, but it doesn't sound like she was being ignored.  And when I read how much she relied on her astrologer for advice, I think the whole idea of therapy was doomed from the start.

There's always going to be too much "He said, She said" to have any 'true' idea of what happened in their lives.  I just find the whole thing so sad.

[MadyGirl1987]

5 hours ago, Frost said:

There's always going to be too much "He said, She said" to have any 'true' idea of what happened in their lives.  I just find the whole thing so sad.

Same here. This is exactly how I feel about it, and I hate that it has often been simplified as “Saint Diana versus evil Charles.” The situation is so much more complex then that. The whole marriage was a mess that should never have happened.

I will say one thing from the most recent episode stuck out at me. It was the guy who compared Diana’s relationship with the press to an addiction. I think that really nails it, and is a good description of the situation. She loved the attention and validation the media gave her, but the press and paparazzi were toxic and  definitely hindered her living her life like she wanted, such as the doctor who broke up with her because he realized with all the press attention they could never have the life they wanted.

[Grrarrggh]

I always found it shocking that some people were so willing to blame the paparazzi for Diana's death and supposed misery when THEY were the ones making photos and stories about Diana so popular. That's not even getting into how much Diana courted the press and photogs, phoned them so they'd know where she was, told her friends to comment on things and even gave them information herself and then lied about it. 

If all the passengers in the Mercedes that night in Paris had worn their seatbelts they would all be alive.

[greekmom]

On 10/25/2021 at 10:55 AM, Dr.OO7 said:

Another excellent episode. This is very thorough.

I didn't know Diana cheated first.

Not that I condone Charles' adultery, but I always found it unfair that he was maligned for ONE affair, while Diana's multiple indiscretions were glossed over. I've never liked that double standard about cheating--if the man cheats, it's his fault, if the woman cheats, it's. . .his fault.

Hmmmm interesting. But I have to disagree. Charles had been having an emotional affair with Camilla from day 1 of his marriage with Diana. Diana is pretty insecure and needy but if Charles placed her above Camilla and treated her with respect to her position as wife and mother of his children, I bet she would have been able to overlook the occasional discretion with Camilla.  

I seriously don't blame Diana for trying to seek some human affection elsewhere since her stunted and selfish husband didn't provide that to her and was giving it to Camilla.

I am most interested in Diana's relationship with the physician. I feel that if the guy wasn't so stubborn in regards to marrying her, she would still be alive and not have gone off with Dodi to France. But I guess we can play "whatifs" all day.

[Grrarrggh]

1 hour ago, greekmom said:

Hmmmm interesting. But I have to disagree. Charles had been having an emotional affair with Camilla from day 1 of his marriage with Diana. 

Charles cut off any communication with Camilla for more than 4 years. He only began it again when he found out Diana was cheating on him and that the marriage couldn't be salvaged. 

[greekmom]

8 hours ago, Grrarrggh said:

Charles cut off any communication with Camilla for more than 4 years. He only began it again when he found out Diana was cheating on him and that the marriage couldn't be salvaged. 

Everything I read does not confirm or deny that communication was stopped with Camilla - only the affair or them seeing eachother. Fact is that Camilla was at their wedding which I do find in poor taste even though her husband had some role and it was confirmed that Charles did wear the CC cufflinks on his honeymoon. 

We can never know truly if Charles called or didn't call Camilla to chat with her how his life sucks with Diana (i.e. he doesn't get her) before he rekindled his affair with her. The only two people who truly know are Charles and Camilla and they won't talk.

Sorry but I am not a fan of Charles. I think after Elizabeth goes Canada should politely cut ties with the monarchy.  

[ancslove]

Ok, Montagu added nothing but a strong dose of hero worship.  I think the show might have benefitted from a couple more commentators who weren't such huge admirers of Diana.  Or to have some more people who supported Charles' point of view, who didn't directly work for him?  Something, to feel a bit more balanced, as the show covered the years of their marriage.  

I definitely agree that Diana was very drawn to the press, and the adulation she received from both the press and the public.  Interesting to speculate that she ramped up her summer fling with Dodi because of Camilla, and not to win back Hasnat Khan.  And I know that the show made such a big hero worship moment of Diana telling Camilla "I want my husband," but I think Camilla made a fair point.  Diana was adored by everyone except Charles, their tragedy was that that wasn't enough for her.

Charles may not have "gotten" Diana ever, but did she ever understand him?  The entire debacle of putting on a public dance performance at the Royal Albert Hall as a gift to Charles makes me think no.  They really were just completely incompatible.  And maybe if they'd gone on more than a dozen dates, and maybe if Philip had talked face to face with his son instead of writing him a letter, the marriage never would have happened.

 

[greekmom]

1 hour ago, ancslove said:

 They really were just completely incompatible.  And maybe if they'd gone on more than a dozen dates, and maybe if Philip had talked face to face with his son instead of writing him a letter, the marriage never would have happened.

 

Exactly.

The monarchy was just going by the old formula of "find young bride to mold her into what we want and who cares if they have anything in common." Which is strange since the head of the monarchy is a woman who is a strong opinioned person who actually chose Phillip as her husband. Then there was the whole issue with Margaret's marriage and choice of spouses.

I don't think the fact that Diana was "adored by everyone except her husband" is any compensation for having a loving partner. Would you want to be adored by the whole world or have your spouse's love, respect and attention?  I think being adored by the world can make a person feel empty.  Camilla had no right to say that to Diana.

 

[ancslove]

Camilla had no right.  It should have come from one of Diana’s friends.  Diana wasn’t wrong to want her husband to love her, of course not.  But there was a time when both of them were having love affairs, that maybe they could have worked out some sort of arrangement where they carried on separately but still loved their sons and their duties together.  Nothing could make Charles love Diana, because they just weren’t compatible.  I’m not even sure that Diana loved Charles by that point, but she was fixated on a romantic marriage that just wasn’t reality.  It’s not her fault, but it’s sad that it took her so long to let that fantasy of a loving marriage with Charles go.
 

And I do think if the genders were reversed (or if Camilla had been more conventionally beautiful), people would have more sympathy for a royal pressured into an unwanted marriage, who continued to see their true love.  
 

 

[Frost]

3 hours ago, ancslove said:

Charles may not have "gotten" Diana ever, but did she ever understand him?  The entire debacle of putting on a public dance performance at the Royal Albert Hall as a gift to Charles makes me think no.

Absolutely!  To me, that has always come off as a publicity stunt by Diana.  I just can't believe she honestly thought that was a 'gift' for Charles.

[Grrarrggh]

5 hours ago, ancslove said:

Camilla had no right.  It should have come from one of Diana’s friends.  Diana wasn’t wrong to want her husband to love her, of course not.  But there was a time when both of them were having love affairs, that maybe they could have worked out some sort of arrangement where they carried on separately but still loved their sons and their duties together.  

They were supposed to work out an arrangement like that but Diana blew it up with the Panorama interview, which she then lied about. I don't think Diana had friends that would tell her hard truths. Her sisters tried, but they were in and out of her life. 

[ancslove]

Julie Montagu sounds so outraged and disgusted and personally hurt for some weird reason that divorced Diana wasn’t part of the royal family anymore and “would have to curtsy to these other minor royals!  Just think about that!”.  I can’t take her seriously, why is she even Talking Head here?  I’d rather have the Marchioness of Bath that’s always photographed in every issue of Hello magazine.  She at least might have an interesting perspective.  

[Dr.OO7]

I've always wondered how William and Harry were told of their mother's death. I remember waking up that morning and hearing a reporter say that they had been and I winced at that.

I could have sworn I read that Charles came into William's room with Harry and told them both then, but now it seems to be the opposite--he told William first and then they went to tell Harry.

Walking behind that coffin had to be agony for those two.

But her brother's eulogy was excellent.

[CountryGirl]

On 11/9/2021 at 9:43 PM, greekmom said:

Hmmmm interesting. But I have to disagree. Charles had been having an emotional affair with Camilla from day 1 of his marriage with Diana. Diana is pretty insecure and needy but if Charles placed her above Camilla and treated her with respect to her position as wife and mother of his children, I bet she would have been able to overlook the occasional discretion with Camilla.  

I seriously don't blame Diana for trying to seek some human affection elsewhere since her stunted and selfish husband didn't provide that to her and was giving it to Camilla.

I am most interested in Diana's relationship with the physician. I feel that if the guy wasn't so stubborn in regards to marrying her, she would still be alive and not have gone off with Dodi to France. But I guess we can play "whatifs" all day.

Charles was not completely faithful to Diana for even one day of his marriage as an emotional affair is still an affair. He wore cufflinks from her on his honeymoon. They were still very much emotionally connected and resumed the physical part of their affair shortly after Harry was born. While I don't like that Diana cheated because I abhor cheating of any kind, given Charles was never truly faithful to her, I cannot blame her for seeking out someone else. I also cannot agree that his one affair with Camilla is somehow better than Diana having multiple affairs as in that affair, he cheated multiple times. With the same person but it's still serial cheating. 

At least the documentary didn't carry out the trope of Camilla and Charles as poor, torn-apart lovers, kept from marrying by the Crown when, in reality, she was totally besotted with Andrew P-B and wanted nothing more than to marry him. It was only after Andrew cheated on her that she decided what was good for the goose was good for the gander, especially when there's a Prince of Wales involved, and resumed her sexual relationship with Charles.

[greekmom]

2 hours ago, CountryGirl said:

Charles was not completely faithful to Diana for even one day of his marriage as an emotional affair is still an affair. He wore cufflinks from her on his honeymoon. They were still very much emotionally connected and resumed the physical part of their affair shortly after Harry was born. While I don't like that Diana cheated because I abhor cheating of any kind, given Charles was never truly faithful to her, I cannot blame her for seeking out someone else. I also cannot agree that his one affair with Camilla is somehow better than Diana having multiple affairs as in that affair, he cheated multiple times. With the same person but it's still serial cheating. 

At least the documentary didn't carry out the trope of Camilla and Charles as poor, torn-apart lovers, kept from marrying by the Crown when, in reality, she was totally besotted with Andrew P-B and wanted nothing more than to marry him. It was only after Andrew cheated on her that she decided what was good for the goose was good for the gander, especially when there's a Prince of Wales involved, and resumed her sexual relationship with Charles.

Exactly. I have no sympathy for either Camilla or Charles.

 

 

[Dr.OO7]

3 hours ago, CountryGirl said:

Charles was not completely faithful to Diana for even one day of his marriage as an emotional affair is still an affair. He wore cufflinks from her on his honeymoon. They were still very much emotionally connected and resumed the physical part of their affair shortly after Harry was born. W

I always wince at Diana's infamous--but true--line of "There were three of us in this marriage."

 

3 hours ago, CountryGirl said:

At least the documentary didn't carry out the trope of Camilla and Charles as poor, torn-apart lovers, kept from marrying by the Crown when, i

I never bought that either. I always figured it was a spin for them to build back respectability

1 hour ago, greekmom said:

Exactly. I have no sympathy for either Camilla or Charles.

Me neither. He could have squared things away with her before going off with the military or stood up to his family and declared he was going to marry her no matter what, even if it meant abdicating.

[ancslove]

I have sympathy for all of them.  Camilla might not have been madly in love with Charles all that time, but I think he’s always been deeply in love with her.  And sure, maybe some of that is because for over a decade, she was “the one who got away”, but I think the emotions were still real, even if not maybe the most mature.  
 

Of course Diana’s position sucked, but I have to say so did Charles, just because it always sucks to be married to someone either you don’t love or who doesn’t love you.   Diana was too immature to deal with it all in the most ideal way, and I maintain she never really understood him any more than he understood her.  They weren’t a good match for each other, and she wasn’t a good match for the job of being royal.  If she’s been born a generation or two later, she could be a model and activist and philanthropist with the Spencer money and title behind her, just like her niece Kitty is doing now.  
 

I can’t say any of them dealt well, but I sympathize with all of them.

[CountryGirl]

While I can have empathy for Charles not being allowed to marry whomever he chose as a result of clearly antiquated views, he knew the score, as did Camilla. Who again, didn't want to marry him anyway back then.

I have zero empathy for their cheating as they were in their 30s and thought nothing of their treatment of Diana, who was still a teenager when she became engaged to Charles.

[Grrarrggh]

6 hours ago, CountryGirl said:

While I can have empathy for Charles not being allowed to marry whomever he chose as a result of clearly antiquated views, he knew the score, as did Camilla. Who again, didn't want to marry him anyway back then.

She did want to marry him. She was just wise enough to know that there wasn't a chance they'd be allowed to marry at the time, so she tried to move on. As did he. 

[greekmom]

On 11/16/2021 at 6:17 PM, Grrarrggh said:

She did want to marry him. She was just wise enough to know that there wasn't a chance they'd be allowed to marry at the time, so she tried to move on. As did he. 

Charles was too much of a wimp to stand up to Mummy. He could have insisted and not married till he got whom he wanted.

It didn't work for Margaret, it didn't work for Anne - you would think by then the Queen would have realized that she had to flow with the times.

I've heard that Charles now wants to make Camilla Queen if and when he takes the throne. I think that the British people are still not behind Charles in that respect because there is still too much love for Diana.  If he does it, I really hope there is a backlash.  

Personally I still think there are 3 in the marriage.  Just now Camilla is competing with a ghost.

[Dr.OO7]

On 12/11/2021 at 11:47 AM, greekmom said:

Just now Camilla is competing with a ghost.

Absolutely. Camilla will never be 100% accepted by the British public, thanks to the deification of Diana.

[Frost]

I've been rewatching this and I'm still super annoyed with Julie Montagu!

I guess we were all wrong about the British public accepting Camilla as Queen 😄 Especially now that Charles has cancer and she's performing all sorts of public duties alone.