Do You Consider Yourself A Feminist?: Why Or Why Not?

[peacheslatour]

I took eighteen months off when I had my son. I didn't get any pay but the company continued paying my health insurance.

[SusanM]

I've never worked anywhere that didn't offer a year of maternity leave, and more recently hasn't also offered paternity leave.  I know it depends on your workplace, of course, but when I read about people in other countries in comparable work situations who consider themselves lucky to get 4 months it always take me by surprise.

[theredhead77]

I support full family leave. What I have an issue with is companies not hiring a temp, and expecting those who are left to pick up the slack. 

I shut down "oh, you don't have a family, so you can work late" or "you don't have a kid, you can work Halloween" long ago.

It's not an issue now, and back when I worked retail I volunteered to work Christmas and Easter since I don't celebrate those holidays.

After one too many of assumptions about my childfree life availability in the corporate world I figured out making an appointment preventing me from working late when I knew people would assume I would, sent a message. I always made the appointment known far in advance, I never did it last minute. I'm always happy to step up and cover in an emergency, or rotate the coverage, but if you think your think your time is more important than mine I have no problem returning the favor.

I did something similar to an abusive, captain of the douche canoe, male coworker. He wanted to leave early to go watch the world cup. I went home sick that day and I don't give a shit about soccer. He had to stay.

My time is my time. Someone's decision to have a child, or be in a family doesn't make their time more valuable. 

I don't know what that says about my level of feminism but as a single female, standing up for myself and protecting my self interests is priority 1, even if I don't don't always support other women when it creates a work imbalance that negatively impacts me.

[BlackberryJam]

@theredhead77 I admire your planning ability. One of my old jobs had a grant that required the court to have detain/arraignment hearings every day. I didn't even work in the criminal side and got stuck doing the 9am hearings on Christmas, "because you don't have kids." Fuck that.

At the same time, I was working my way up there and needed the points. Until I realized that not having a penis was always going to hold me back. 

Family leave in corporations or government organizations is one thing, but it's a small business killer. There has to be a pool of similarly skilled workers looking for temporary positions to make it feasible. I'm a good employer. I pay 100% of health care, including dental. I bonus 4x per year, so it's not about just what happens in December, and December bonus is always first payroll of the month. I give 15 days of paid leave. 

But if my employees wanted to take 12-36 months off? I just don't know how I could maintain the position, and I wouldn't be able to afford the health care for both the employee and the temp. 

Of course, if we could just switch to universal health care, that would make a definite change. 

[theredhead77]

20 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

I admire your planning ability. One of my old jobs had a grant that required the court to have detain/arraignment hearings every day. I didn't even work in the criminal side and got stuck doing the 9am hearings on Christmas, "because you don't have kids." Fuck that.

My best friend says never under-estimate how petty and vindictive I can be. It's saved for very, very special circumstances and I haven't had to do anything close to that in close to a decade - the asshat world cup situation I mentioned was probably the last time I pulled something like that.

I will cover, I will support, I will do whatever, if you ask ahead of time, or in an emergency. No problem. But start assuming I will cover, or stay late just because I don't have kids or a spouse? Fuck you, I'll make life a bit harder and have zero guilt about the impact my decision has.

28 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

Family leave in corporations or government organizations is one thing, but it's a small business killer. There has to be a pool of similarly skilled workers looking for temporary positions to make it feasible. I'm a good employer. I pay 100% of health care, including dental. I bonus 4x per year, so it's not about just what happens in December, and December bonus is always first payroll of the month. I give 15 days of paid leave. 

But if my employees wanted to take 12-36 months off? I just don't know how I could maintain the position, and I wouldn't be able to afford the health care for both the employee and the temp. 

Small businesses are between a rock and a hard place. I don't think family leave is a one-sized-fits-all situation. I don't necessarily think that salary and insurance have to be paid while on leave in all circumstances, and a temp agency should cover that for their temp, but....

 

29 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

if we could just switch to universal health care, that would make a definite change.

this 100%

[peacheslatour]

Quote

Small businesses are between a rock and a hard place. I don't think family leave is a one-sized-fits-all situation. I don't necessarily think that salary and insurance have to be paid while on leave in all circumstances, and a temp agency should cover that for their temp, but....

This. I worked for a small family owned paint and decor company. They couldn't afford to pay me while I stayed home with my son for the first year and a half of his life. They did assure me that my job would be there whenever I wanted to come back and they continued to pay 100% of my health insurance. I was grateful, they didn't have to do that. 

[SusanM]

18 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

This. I worked for a small family owned paint and decor company. They couldn't afford to pay me while I stayed home with my son for the first year and a half of his life. They did assure me that my job would be there whenever I wanted to come back and they continued to pay 100% of my health insurance. I was grateful, they didn't have to do that. 

In Canada the health insurance isn't as big an issue as it is in the US (although that said it's not like medicare covers everything! far from it) but here most businesses aren't expected to continue paying staff who are off on maternity leave.  Some do but that's usually places like govt agencies, hospitals and the like.  Even there the company only picks up some of the cost - most people on mat leave can get benefits from the govt through EI.  I think up to a year - but it's certainly not the equivalent of your salary so it's not like women are staying home on the company dime for a year which is something a lot of people assume is the case.  The key part of maternity leave is that a business can't fire you because you've left to be with a baby and must hold your job open for you (or a similar position),

[PRgal]

1 hour ago, SusannahM said:

In Canada the health insurance isn't as big an issue as it is in the US (although that said it's not like medicare covers everything! far from it) but here most businesses aren't expected to continue paying staff who are off on maternity leave.  Some do but that's usually places like govt agencies, hospitals and the like.  Even there the company only picks up some of the cost - most people on mat leave can get benefits from the govt through EI.  I think up to a year - but it's certainly not the equivalent of your salary so it's not like women are staying home on the company dime for a year which is something a lot of people assume is the case.  The key part of maternity leave is that a business can't fire you because you've left to be with a baby and must hold your job open for you (or a similar position),

Similar position is key.  If you're gone for a year, you've lost one year's worth of experience.  You could end up reporting to someone who was at your level prior to leave because, well, they couldn't have promoted you (if you applied for a new position that was at a higher level, then that's different.  But that's not the same as just promoting).  Plus you've lost that year.  People often don't look into other factors leading to fewer women in the C-suite.  Or higher salaries.  I really think it's important for men to take MORE time, take advantage of parental leave, rather than leaving the entire year to their (female) spouses/partners.

[BlackberryJam]

2 hours ago, theredhead77 said:

Small businesses are between a rock and a hard place. I don't think family leave is a one-sized-fits-all situation. I don't necessarily think that salary and insurance have to be paid while on leave in all circumstances, and a temp agency should cover that for their temp, but....

It's not temp work though. All of my staff have associate degrees that qualify them to do the job. If I could just plug someone in, I would. And there aren't people out there with the qualifications looking to work for just a year, or six months. You can't hire anyone qualified under those circumstances. 

*bangs head* It is a rock and a hard place. 

I'm lucky that all of my last hires were over 40 with adult children, and not looking to get pregnant again. In fact, in the last pool of applicants, there was only one person under the age of 40. That was a 21 year old whose cover letter stated she wanted to use the position in my business to learn the necessary skills so she could quit, get her degree and open up her own business in competition with mine. 

[RealHousewife]

40 minutes ago, PRgal said:

Similar position is key.  If you're gone for a year, you've lost one year's worth of experience.  You could end up reporting to someone who was at your level prior to leave because, well, they couldn't have promoted you (if you applied for a new position that was at a higher level, then that's different.  But that's not the same as just promoting).  Plus you've lost that year.  People often don't look into other factors leading to fewer women in the C-suite.  Or higher salaries.  I really think it's important for men to take MORE time, take advantage of parental leave, rather than leaving the entire year to their (female) spouses/partners.

Agree. I can see it making more sense for women to be home at first (recovering from giving birth and breastfeeding), but men are just as capable of looking after their babies. 

[SusanM]

1 minute ago, BlackberryJam said:

And there aren't people out there with the qualifications looking to work for just a year, or six months. You can't hire anyone qualified under those circumstances. 

Pandemic related but this is the exact issue we're dealing with at my work and at my husband's right now.  We can't fill the vacant positions left by the unvaccinated who've chosen  to stay home with no pay.  There just aren't enough qualfiied candidates out there looking for temp jobs that possibly won't lead to anything permanent.  

[peacheslatour]

14 minutes ago, SusannahM said:

Pandemic related but this is the exact issue we're dealing with at my work and at my husband's right now.  We can't fill the vacant positions left by the unvaccinated who've chosen  to stay home with no pay.  There just aren't enough qualfiied candidates out there looking for temp jobs that possibly won't lead to anything permanent.  

Why don't you just fire the plague spreaders? Then you'd have open, permanent positions.

[SusanM]

3 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

Why don't you just fire the plague spreaders? Then you'd have open, permanent positions.

Some places are definitely doing that!  But most seem to be taking a "wait and see" approach.  Not sure if the concern is potential for lawsuits or what but it's definitely not making the unvaccinated any friends in the affected workplaces that's for sure.  I hate to think what it will be like if these people ever do come back into the office.  There is a lot of resentment right now.

[peacheslatour]

1 minute ago, SusannahM said:

Some places are definitely doing that!  But most seem to be taking a "wait and see" approach.  Not sure if the concern is potential for lawsuits or what but it's definitely not making the unvaccinated any friends in the affected workplaces that's for sure.  I hate to think what it will be like if these people ever do come back into the office.  There is a lot of resentment right now.

I bet. 

[theredhead77]

40 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

That was a 21 year old whose cover letter stated she wanted to use the position in my business to learn the necessary skills so she could quit, get her degree and open up her own business in competition with mine. 

😮  At least she was honest from the start!

[BlackberryJam]

30 minutes ago, theredhead77 said:

😮  At least she was honest from the start!

I know!! I contacted the program director and was like, "this woman is never going to get hired if this is the letter she's sending out." It was a study in, "how not to get hired."

I was like, "your ambition is cute, but I need someone willing to do the same job year after year for the next 20."

[peacheslatour]

1 minute ago, BlackberryJam said:

I know!! I contacted the program director and was like, "this woman is never going to get hired if this is the letter she's sending out." It was a study in, "how not to get hired."

I was like, "your ambition is cute, but I need someone willing to do the same job year after year for the next 20."

In a kind of roundabout way, I actually got hired off saying something like that. I had been working for a mortgage broker but lost my job when her son came back from Kuwait. TBF, I knew going in that was going to happen, it had been his position before deployment. I asked my aunt, who was an office manager if I could come in and work in her office for a while to learn Word, Quickbooks and Excel while her assistant was on vacation. She said sure and I ended up replacing the assistant and eventually my aunt when she retired. Like I said, roundabout.

[theredhead77]

2 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

I know!! I contacted the program director and was like, "this woman is never going to get hired if this is the letter she's sending out." It was a study in, "how not to get hired."

I was like, "your ambition is cute, but I need someone willing to do the same job year after year for the next 20."

That was nice of you! I hope the applicant took that as a learning moment. I've been interviewing with this company and I'm probably going to turn down the offer, if I get one. But they asked how long I would envision myself in the position and I said about 2 years - a year to get good at it and a year to be good at it then take that knowledge and move into another area of the company. I really don't care if I get an offer TBH. The company seems sketch.

[Bookish Jen]

On 1/19/2022 at 5:51 PM, Bastet said:

I've been working a long time, including many offices that are all women, and have never once had that stereotypical experience.  The occasional incident or person, of course, but never anything where the group of women as a whole in any way resembled the gossipy, catty cartoons we are stereotyped as.

I'm not the one you asked, but: Absolutely.  But it's two-fold -- we need  parental leave mandated and subsidized by the government, but we also need it to be understood within families as just that, parental leave.  Not maternity leave.  Parental leave, which should be distributed between both parents (if there are two) in the way that makes the most sense for them.  Not with the default being a dad takes a few days off after the kid is born, but any extended leave is taken by moms.

When it's seen as something mothers do, it harms all women, even those who don't have kids - as noted, women are denied hiring and/or promotion based on the "risk" she'll wind up taking leave, or quitting altogether, at some point to have kids.  And then when it is something mostly only done by mothers, it harms their career trajectories because they dare take time away and are seen as less committed to their careers.  If it's something parents do based on family circumstances, not gender roles, the stigma goes away and the time off is divided up equitably, so generally one person is not missing so much at once.

There's a flip side, too, ways in which non-parents get screwed in the workplace.  Elinor Burkett wrote a great book 20 years ago, The Baby Boon: How Family-Friendly America Cheats the Childless, examining that side of the coin.  (Basically, Corporate America fucks everyone but the top brass.)

I read that book and I thought Ms. Burkett brought up some very salient points. I'm childfree, and I've noticed in some workplaces some parents get away with things the unchilded would never. I actually had a boss tell me that it was okay for my co-worker to come in late, gab on the phone with her friends, and pass her work onto me because she was a single mom. Huh? But I don't blame parents for this. I blame the workplace. BTW, the company went out of business.

[Bastet]

My first office job was great, and I loved my boss and the other women I worked with (in fact, most of us are still in touch), but as the only child-free one among us, I had to point their double standards - where time to tend to child-related needs was deemed more important to accommodate - out to them sometimes.  They always oh, shit, you're right acknowledged it and made things right for me when I did, but it was aggravating that I'd have to keep calling it out instead of them, having been made aware of their implicit bias, proactively checking themselves. 

[PRgal]

On the home side:  I like making casseroles because they're easy and quicker than cooking meals with a separate protein and sides.  Unfortunately, it's not PRguy's preference.  PRkid, of course, doesn't care (he's not very picky about food right now).  PRguy and I actually met with a dietitian because he (and even my parents) thinks I've gone too extreme in eating healthfully (as in I never cook with "traditional" pastas anymore (not that I EVER bought white flour pasta since we got married), make rice, etc, etc.....he hates (say) lentil noodles and legumes, in general), yadda, yadda.....I think we've come to a compromise.  Sheet pan meals and he's okay with, say, whole grain/ancient breads and pastas.  I think a lot of men don't realize how much effort it takes to put together a meal.

[peacheslatour]

I like preparing food for dinner ahead of time so I'm not stuck in the kitchen in the evenings when we like to relax together. So, I totally get the casserole thing.  I used to make three dinners very night when our son was little. Thank god I don't have to do that any more. 

[theredhead77]

This reminds me, I have the ingredients to make the traditional holiday green-bean casserole (old-skool with canned beans and cream of mushroom soup). If I dump in 2 cans of tuna I have an insta-tuna casserole!

[supposebly]

40 minutes ago, PRgal said:

I think a lot of men don't realize how much effort it takes to put together a meal.

I hope there is a good reason you're doing all the cooking.

[Bastet]

39 minutes ago, PRgal said:

Unfortunately, it's not PRguy's preference. 

Then he ought to do some of the cooking. 

And if you have fundamentally different diets why not just make your own meals for the most part (like two sets of my friends where one is vegetarian and one isn't) and take turns feeding the kid?

(I wouldn't eat lentil noodles, either, but if a partner made them, I'd expect to make myself something else to eat, not whine they should make something different.)

[peacheslatour]

6 minutes ago, Bastet said:

Then he ought to do some of the cooking. 

And if you have fundamentally different diets why not just make your own meals for the most part (like two sets of my friends where one is vegetarian and one isn't) and take turns feeding the kid?

(I wouldn't eat lentil noodles, either, but if a partner made them, I'd expect to make myself something else to eat, not whine they should make something different.)

My dad loved liver. My mom...did not. Every once in a while she would make liver and onions for him, oysters for herself and I'd get a pork chop.

[SusanM]

9 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

My dad loved liver. My mom...did not. Every once in a while she would make liver and onions for him, oysters for herself and I'd get a pork chop.

My parents were the same.  My mother didn't really like spicy foods (which would be defined basically as a dish using any spice other than salt and pepper) so if my Dad wanted curry or chili or the like he made it himself.  My mother was a wonderful cook BTW but boy did we kids look forward to the nights Dad did the cooking and Mom made herself a chicken salad!

[SusanM]

1 hour ago, PRgal said:

I think a lot of men don't realize how much effort it takes to put together a meal.

I think a lot of people don't get this.  It's worse now with the way everyone and his brother seems to be a "foodie" and thinks every meal needs to be a culinary experience.  Sorry but I'm busy and I have no intention of spending hours in the kitchen every day just because for some damn reason the kitchen is the 'heart of the home'.  Not in my house!

Edited January 22, 2022 by SusannahM

[PRgal]

43 minutes ago, Bastet said:

Then he ought to do some of the cooking. 

And if you have fundamentally different diets why not just make your own meals for the most part (like two sets of my friends where one is vegetarian and one isn't) and take turns feeding the kid?

(I wouldn't eat lentil noodles, either, but if a partner made them, I'd expect to make myself something else to eat, not whine they should make something different.)

He often works until 6:30 every day.  At least he's working from home right now.  And if he orders in, he's going to go for something unhealthy (even though he wants to lose weight)!  That's the issue.  I'm going to start making the bulk of my meals on weekends and freezing some so we'd have stuff at the end of the week, too.  Like, lentil sauce for me, ground turkey or chicken (since we're limiting red meat) for him if we do pasta.  I'm okay making two different types of noodles - it doesn't take long, but I don't want to do two sauces on the same night.  He also doesn't really like to eat vegetables that aren't mixed in to something. And is a lot pickier about leafy greens than I am.

[isalicat]

2 hours ago, PRgal said:

He often works until 6:30 every day.  At least he's working from home right now.  And if he orders in, he's going to go for something unhealthy (even though he wants to lose weight)!  That's the issue.  I'm going to start making the bulk of my meals on weekends and freezing some so we'd have stuff at the end of the week, too.  Like, lentil sauce for me, ground turkey or chicken (since we're limiting red meat) for him if we do pasta.  I'm okay making two different types of noodles - it doesn't take long, but I don't want to do two sauces on the same night.  He also doesn't really like to eat vegetables that aren't mixed in to something. And is a lot pickier about leafy greens than I am.

I would suggest that you have a sit down conversation about what your kid is perceiving as "woman's work" and "men's work". Children should learn to cook as soon as it is safe for them to do so, and husbands should model a willingness to prepare meals on a regular basis so their sons don't think that only females cook at home. My son learned to cook a full meal for the family by the time he was 10 and took his turn making us dinner once a week until he left home for college. He learned to sew too! And do laundry!

And as long as you mention it: nothing made of wheat is really healthy or geared toward weight loss, so how about ditching the pasta altogether? (or switch to spaghetti squash or zucchini strips if you must have something to put sauce on?)

[PRgal]

1 hour ago, isalicat said:

I would suggest that you have a sit down conversation about what your kid is perceiving as "woman's work" and "men's work". Children should learn to cook as soon as it is safe for them to do so, and husbands should model a willingness to prepare meals on a regular basis so their sons don't think that only females cook at home. My son learned to cook a full meal for the family by the time he was 10 and took his turn making us dinner once a week until he left home for college. He learned to sew too! And do laundry!

And as long as you mention it: nothing made of wheat is really healthy or geared toward weight loss, so how about ditching the pasta altogether? (or switch to spaghetti squash or zucchini strips if you must have something to put sauce on?)

I've "taught" (i.e. reminded) my husband how to make scrambled eggs, so at least he can make that if he desperately needs something with protein.  I've tried vegetable noodles (i.e. squash, zucchini, carrots, etc...), but he hates them (but I love them).  He absolutely refuses to eat riced cauliflower (though I managed to get him to eat cauliflower when I steamed mashed it and used it as a casserole sauce).  The only way I can get him to eat alternative tortilla (I like this and this) is in a casserole (even though casseroles aren't his preference).  He likes stuffed bell peppers (very freezer friendly), but I can't have us eat that every single night.  Or half-half meatloaf/meatballs (half-half meaning it's a meatloaf/meatballs chocked full of vegetables).  

[isalicat]

30 minutes ago, PRgal said:

I've "taught" (i.e. reminded) my husband how to make scrambled eggs, so at least he can make that if he desperately needs something with protein.  I've tried vegetable noodles (i.e. squash, zucchini, carrots, etc...), but he hates them (but I love them).  He absolutely refuses to eat riced cauliflower (though I managed to get him to eat cauliflower when I steamed mashed it and used it as a casserole sauce).  The only way I can get him to eat alternative tortilla (I like this and this) is in a casserole (even though casseroles aren't his preference).  He likes stuffed bell peppers (very freezer friendly), but I can't have us eat that every single night.  Or half-half meatloaf/meatballs (half-half meaning it's a meatloaf/meatballs chocked full of vegetables).  

I think you could teach your husband (or better yet, he could teach himself) how to roast a whole chicken - dinner for everyone with some salad or vegies on the side and leftovers for lunch. How about some turkey burgers? A lasagna made with zucchini strips is another easy one. If your husband is really going to eat healthy/lose weight he is going to have to be way more creative personally to find and prepare food that doesn't involve starch. Don't enable helplessness in the kitchen? What if you were ill or gone on business? Would he only be able to order take out for himself and your kid?

[SparedTurkey]

Slightly different topic, but I've noticed differences between men and women who lose weight in the workplace. A bloke in my office lost about 30kg in a 4 month period and he was lauded for taking care of himself, being stronger, being happier etc.

I lost about 35kg over 12 months and I got a pretty equal mix of 'you look much better than you did & you look good' and 'you've gone too fast, your too tiny, you aren't eating enough, you've got some kind of disorder'. I freely admit I did not expect such a mix and the reactions compared to the bloke is pretty stark.

And outside of work, I have noticed that men look at me more, talk to me, try to open doors for me etc. way more now than they did 30kgs before. And I am in no way beautiful so it just comes down to the weight thing.

[BlackberryJam]

I can cook. I make delicious food, and as a grown ass adult, I can read a recipe. No one needs taught to cook if the can read and google videos. That’s just ridiculous. Adult need to take responsibility for their own knowledge gaps and self-correct.

I just don’t cook often because it’s boring as fuck and requires more effort than I care to give.

[theredhead77]

Cooking is an art. Baking is a science. Following a tried and true recipe, like one in a Betty Crocker cookbook, will rarely produce poor results 

[RealHousewife]

2 hours ago, SparedTurkey said:

Slightly different topic, but I've noticed differences between men and women who lose weight in the workplace. A bloke in my office lost about 30kg in a 4 month period and he was lauded for taking care of himself, being stronger, being happier etc.

I lost about 35kg over 12 months and I got a pretty equal mix of 'you look much better than you did & you look good' and 'you've gone too fast, your too tiny, you aren't eating enough, you've got some kind of disorder'. I freely admit I did not expect such a mix and the reactions compared to the bloke is pretty stark.

And outside of work, I have noticed that men look at me more, talk to me, try to open doors for me etc. way more now than they did 30kgs before. And I am in no way beautiful so it just comes down to the weight thing.

I'm sorry you dealt with such rudeness. I've been told I look anorexic and that my butt was getting big and to watch it at the same freaking weight. You can't please everybody. There are people who think curves = fat, and there are those who think if you're thin you must not eat.

My friend had a very different experience. She's a beautiful woman but used to be heavy and is now thin. She thought she'd get hit on more post weight loss, but she got a lot more attention when she was around 200 lbs. She's probably like 110 or so now. 

1 hour ago, BlackberryJam said:

I can cook. I make delicious food, and as a grown ass adult, I can read a recipe. No one needs taught to cook if the can read and google videos. That’s just ridiculous. Adult need to take responsibility for their own knowledge gaps and self-correct.

I just don’t cook often because it’s boring as fuck and requires more effort than I care to give.

Cooking is part of being an adult imo, not woman's work. Men have to eat too. Food is actually one of the few areas where it's more expensive being a man. They consume more calories. If a man did as much takeout as I did, he'd go broke. 

Cooking can be fun sometimes, and I can get excited about certain recipes. But day to day cooking? Ugh, I don't enjoy it either. I need to find a way to. It's way healthier and better for the wallet. But shopping for everything you need, washing and chopping stuff up, then the actual cooking part, it takes so much time. I envy those who just love being in the kitchen. 

I do on the other hand adore baking. Perhaps I get more excited about baking because I like sweets more than meal food. It's also easier to make sweets beautiful. But not as healthy a hobby as cooking. :(

[SusanM]

9 hours ago, theredhead77 said:

Cooking is an art. Baking is a science. Following a tried and true recipe, like one in a Betty Crocker cookbook, will rarely produce poor results 

So true!  I used to get on the Internet and google for recipes and have found that I've rarely found winners that way.  Haul out my tried and true Betty Crocker and I can't go wrong.  Relatively simple, no ingredients that have to be purchased at great cost from a specialty store, and best of all one or two pots.  No all day marathon in the kitchen just to produce a meal that tastes fine but nothing special!

8 hours ago, RealHousewife said:

Cooking can be fun sometimes, and I can get excited about certain recipes. But day to day cooking? Ugh,

I think it's the pandemic but I've reached a point now where I am so sick of meal planning and cooking every single day.   I think the difference is I don't go into the office every day now - I work from home 3 days out of 5 and back in the Before Times I ate lunch out 5 days a week (I've never been good about packing a sandwich).  I miss that.

Edited January 23, 2022 by SusannahM

[supposebly]

I got so sick of my own cooking, I signed up for one of the meal boxes. Simple, doesn't require spending money on spices or ingredients I wouldn't otherwise use, and it gives me some ideas for new things.

And I dare anyone not to be able to do them.

Back on topic: Any adult needs to know how to cook. I have an uncle who is 85 and his wife of 60 years finally left him. Long story but he doesn't know how to feed himself. He's decently healthy but he had to move to a home now since he doesn't know how to take care of himself. Any man who thinks doing laundry, cleaning and cooking is woman's work should think about that. Not every woman sticks around to take care of a big baby forever.

[SusanM]

23 minutes ago, supposebly said:

Back on topic: Any adult needs to know how to cook. I have an uncle who is 85 and his wife of 60 years finally left him. Long story but he doesn't know how to feed himself.

This happened to my BIL's parents.  They split up when they were in their 80s and now live in separate retirement homes.  I suspect this is way more common than I previously thought!  I guess I figured if you stuck it out together for that long you'd keep going until the end but clearly that's not true.

[BlackberryJam]

4 hours ago, SusannahM said:

This happened to my BIL's parents.  They split up when they were in their 80s and now live in separate retirement homes.  I suspect this is way more common than I previously thought!  I guess I figured if you stuck it out together for that long you'd keep going until the end but clearly that's not true.

Men aren’t children who need constant instruction from women on how to feed and care for themselves. 

At an old job, I had a male coworker who asked me how to complete a task, more in my area than his. I showed him how, and did about 70% of the job for him. He asked for the same help 6 months later; I showed him and did about 20% of the work. The third time he asked, I told him he was a grown adult who had the same education I did, and to figure it out. He later admitted he just wanted me to complete the task for him. No. Since then, I refuse to do work for men who claim they need help. I’ll provide the resources, or direct to the information, but not do the work.

I find men will pull that on women, pretend incompetence to avoid completing tasks they dislike. Fuck that. 

 

Edited January 23, 2022 by BlackberryJam

[peacheslatour]

Quote

I find men will pull that on women, pretend incompetence to avoid completing tasks they dislike. Fuck that. 

There was a scene in The Office where Ryan was trying to make Pam clean the microwave. She asks him if that isn't what temps are for (he was a temp) and he's all like "Oh no, I'd just make it worse." She wanted to know how wiping it down with a paper towel would make it "worse" "Oh trust me it would." It's just weaponized incompetence. He wanted her to do it because, as a man, it was beneath him.

Edited January 23, 2022 by peacheslatour

[Bastet]

35 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

He wanted her to do it because, as a man, it was beneath him.

Like all those awful commercials where a man is horrible at some domestic task, so the woman has to take over, and this product makes it nice and easy for her - domestic tasks are an insult to the wonderful capabilities of the male brain, so they're just not suited for it; leave that stuff to the little woman, since she knows how by virtue of being born a woman. 

These days we see some commercials where it's a man doing the laundry, but usually he's alone or has a male partner; we hardly ever see a heterosexual couple where he just happens to be the one doing laundry.  It's not much progress to say men do laundry - but only if there isn't a woman around to do it for them.

Edited January 23, 2022 by Bastet

[SusanM]

1 hour ago, BlackberryJam said:

Men aren’t children who need constant instruction from women on how to feed and care for themselves. 

I don't disagree but I'm not clear on what connection this comment has with a discussion of elderly people choosing to separate/divorce.

[peacheslatour]

3 minutes ago, SusannahM said:

I don't disagree but I'm not clear on what connection this comment has with a discussion of elderly people choosing to separate/divorce.

It has to do with men that become helpless man babies when they don't have their wives around to take care of them.

[PRgal]

The next time a man asks, tell him to Google it.  That’s how I figured out how to…get this…make a hard boiled egg without having to stand by the stove (I use a method I found on Martha Stewart…the place an egg in a pot of water until it comes to a boil, cover, turn off the heat and wait x minutes (depending in whether you want soft, medium or hard).  

Edited January 23, 2022 by PRgal

[BlackberryJam]

3 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

It has to do with men that become helpless man babies when they don't have their wives around to take care of them.

Or are helpless, or pretend to be helpless, throughout the marriage. 

Those commercials that have women all fussed about having a perfectly clean house always bugged me. Partially because I was made to feel deficient for not giving a damn really about a fan pattern in the carpet. 

Just on a note, I’ve recently been rewatching The Americans which takes place in the 1980s. While the female lead does plenty of cooking and laundry, the male lead is shown cooking and doing laundry as well, and there are no comments about it. No one ever says or indicates anything about him doing “women’s work.” I appreciated that. There is plenty of 1980s style misogyny in the show, but not with the leads and housework. 

[peacheslatour]

1 minute ago, BlackberryJam said:

Or are helpless, or pretend to be helpless, throughout the marriage. 

Those commercials that have women all fussed about having a perfectly clean house always bugged me. Partially because I was made to feel deficient for not giving a damn really about a fan pattern in the carpet. 

Just on a note, I’ve recently been rewatching The Americans which takes place in the 1980s. While the female lead does plenty of cooking and laundry, the male lead is shown cooking and doing laundry as well, and there are no comments about it. No one ever says or indicates anything about him doing “women’s work.” I appreciated that. There is plenty of 1980s style misogyny in the show, but not with the leads and housework. 

My dad was taught to do a lot of cleaning in the Air Force. He just brought it with him when he left the service. He had no problem cleaning, bed making, laundry, even the bathrooms. He used to say "gotta make sure to polish up the brass."

[SusanM]

8 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

It has to do with men that become helpless man babies when they don't have their wives around to take care of them.

Ah, gotcha.  I wasn't clear in my answer.  I wasn't talking about the husband being helpless with the wife gone just that it surprised me that they stuck it out for over 60 years and then divorced.  Of course they are both in retirement homes so someone else is doing the cooking and cleaning for both of them now.

 

[Bastet]

20 minutes ago, SusannahM said:

I wasn't talking about the husband being helpless with the wife gone just that it surprised me that they stuck it out for over 60 years and then divorced. 

A lot of couples married that long are still together out of inertia and having been indoctrinated against divorce, not because they're actively choosing to continue.  That usually carries on until one of them dies, but it still happens where someone looks around and decides "I've already wasted enough time on this; whatever bit of it I have left, I'm spending it as happy as I can be."

[supposebly]

1 hour ago, SusannahM said:

Of course they are both in retirement homes so someone else is doing the cooking and cleaning for both of them now.

Not really. In the case of my uncle, the wife is only 70, she's healthy and she moved out.

It's a very long story of an unhappy marriage from the snippets I hear from the extended family but that wasn't my point. I can't pretend to understand why they stayed married for 60 years.

The point was that my uncle is an extreme case of a man baby who had to move into a retirement home instead of living out his days at his house because he can't take care of himself. And he's still healthy enough at the age of 85. Just probably not able to learn at this age.