Do You Consider Yourself A Feminist?: Why Or Why Not?

[Bastet]

3 hours ago, peacheslatour said:

I just saw an interesting idea. I know a lot of us are not looking forward to removing our masks and once again hearing the dreaded "Smile!" From now on, if some creep tells them to smile, they are going to look them dead in the eye and say "Dance."

I like it.  I do like the woman in this video, and ask, "Do I know you?" and then when he says no, say, "Yet you're telling me what to do with my face."  They usually walk away grumbling, but if I ever encounter one who keeps on, I'm going to further emulate her by announcing, "Women everywhere - a random man has life advice!"

 

[peacheslatour]

35 minutes ago, RealHousewife said:

What are everyone's thoughts about equal pay? 

There are multiple factors at play when it comes to women earning less. Do you all think this is still a big issue? If so, what should be done?

One thing that really annoys me is even if we earn as much, it costs more to be a woman. There's our hygiene products. Our basic grooming products cost more. Then we spend more just trying to present ourselves the way society wants us to. No, no one forces us to get plastic surgery or wear designer clothes. But the cost of pads, tampons, hair removal, basic makeup, nail care, it's so much money throughout our lives. It also takes a lot of energy and time if you want to be very well-groomed. 

Not only that but we're expected to be good moms. If the kid gets sick, we're expected to take time off to care for them, take them to the doctor, get their meds and keep them fed and clean while they recover. That can seriously affect promotions, raises and assignments. It's not like that in Europe. They want to encourage having kids, here it's like they want to make you feel like you're not a "team player" if you have the basic responsibilities associated with parenthood. And speaking of team players, don't even get me started on sports analogies in the corporate world.

[WinnieWinkle]

22 hours ago, peacheslatour said:

Not only that but we're expected to be good moms. If the kid gets sick, we're expected to take time off to care for them, take them to the doctor, get their meds and keep them fed and clean while they recover. That can seriously affect promotions, raises and assignments. It's not like that in Europe. They want to encourage having kids, here it's like they want to make you feel like you're not a "team player"

Look how many mothers ended up having to quit their jobs in the midst of the pandemic.  I'm not saying men should have quit but it's not exactly going to surprise most people if when it comes right down to it it's mom who has to give up working when kids need to be cared for.  I was watching the news the other night and some small business owners were moaning about how they can't get employees back now that things are starting to open up - and of course blaming the money that people have been getting for being off work because of the pandemic.  No mention that most of these jobs they can't fill are minimum wage (if that) and mainly filled by women.  Well how are women with kids supposed to be taking these jobs right now when schools are closed and a lot of child care options aren't fully available and we're still IN a pandemic in the first place?  

Edited July 19, 2021 by WinnieWinkle

[peacheslatour]

2 minutes ago, WinnieWinkle said:

Look how many mothers ended up having to quit their jobs in the midst of the pandemic.  I'm not saying men should have quit but it's not exactly going to surprise most people if when it comes right now to it it's mom who has to give up working when kids need to be cared for.  I was watching the news the other night and some small business owners were moaning about how they can't get employees back now that things are starting to open up - and of course blaming the money that people have been getting for being off work because of the pandemic.  No mention that most of these jobs they can't fill are minimum wage (if that) and mainly filled by women.  Well how are women with kids supposed to be taking these jobs right now when schools are closed and a lot of child care options aren't fully available and we're still IN a pandemic in the first place?  

I know this, if the pandemic had happened when my son was small, I would have had to quit my job because my husband had his own business and he had to be there. There is a labor shortage right now for three reasons. 

1. People got used to WFH and they're damn well not going back to the office now that they know they don't need to be there for shit to get done.

2. Restaurants were hit hardest and the people who worked there have found other jobs that not only paid better but treated them better.

3. I think people are tightening their belts and learning that hey, we didn't get a bunch of new crap last year and we did just fine. 

We shall see.

[WinnieWinkle]

2 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

I know this, if the pandemic had happened when my son was small, I would have had to quit my job because my husband had his own business and he had to be there.

Same.  I have a master's degree and worked as a librarian when my kids were small but even so my husband always made more money than I did and if we had to choose one of us being home it definitely would have been me.  Which, of course, is part of the problem with women moving forward in their chosen fields.  In most cases I know even when the wife was a major breadwinner she was still the one taking time off when the kids needed someone at home - be it a day, a week, or in a pandemic a year. Sure there are exceptions but that's exactly what they are, exceptions.

[peacheslatour]

3 minutes ago, WinnieWinkle said:

Same.  I have a master's degree and worked as a librarian when my kids were small but even so my husband always made more money than I did and if we had to choose one of us being home it definitely would have been me.  Which, of course, is part of the problem with women moving forward in their chosen fields.  In most cases I know even when the wife was a major breadwinner she was still the one taking time off when the kids needed someone at home - be it a day, a week, or in a pandemic a year. Sure there are exceptions but that's exactly what they are, exceptions.

And exceptions are what prove the rule.

[PRgal]

1 hour ago, RealHousewife said:

What are everyone's thoughts about equal pay? 

There are multiple factors at play when it comes to women earning less. Do you all think this is still a big issue? If so, what should be done?

One thing that really annoys me is even if we earn as much, it costs more to be a woman. There's our hygiene products. Our basic grooming products cost more. Then we spend more just trying to present ourselves the way society wants us to. No, no one forces us to get plastic surgery or wear designer clothes. But the cost of pads, tampons, hair removal, basic makeup, nail care, it's so much money throughout our lives. It also takes a lot of energy and time if you want to be very well-groomed. 

My question is this:  Why don't we talk MORE about encouraging MEN to do more of the unpaid labour WE do?  It's always about US, and it's a bit self-centred, IMHO.  If we want TRUE equality, we need the men MORE involved with what we do.  We need THEM to do more of the chauffeuring.  More of the cooking, cleaning, childcare, etc...one of the factors of us being paid less (in general, anyway) is because we have more to do at home, so we're MORE exhausted at work, and therefore, putting LESS effort in.  Just a thought.

[peacheslatour]

7 minutes ago, PRgal said:

My question is this:  Why don't we talk MORE about encouraging MEN to do more of the unpaid labour WE do?  It's always about US, and it's a bit self-centred, IMHO.  If we want TRUE equality, we need the men MORE involved with what we do.  We need THEM to do more of the chauffeuring.  More of the cooking, cleaning, childcare, etc...one of the factors of us being paid less (in general, anyway) is because we have more to do at home, so we're MORE exhausted at work, and therefore, putting LESS effort in.  Just a thought.

I think a lot of them are doing just that. But the line in the sand still seems to be who stays home with Junior when he's sick. My DH was a model dad, had no problem changing diapers, late night feedings, cooking, cleaning, all sorts. But when it came to taking time off from work, it was always me.

[WinnieWinkle]

10 minutes ago, PRgal said:

My question is this:  Why don't we talk MORE about encouraging MEN to do more of the unpaid labour WE do?  It's always about US, and it's a bit self-centred, IMHO.  If we want TRUE equality, we need the men MORE involved with what we do.  We need THEM to do more of the chauffeuring.  More of the cooking, cleaning, childcare, etc...one of the factors of us being paid less (in general, anyway) is because we have more to do at home, so we're MORE exhausted at work, and therefore, putting LESS effort in.  Just a thought.

And it's still women being expected to be the ones to have this conversation in the first place.  I am living for the day when magazines aimed at men start having articles in them dealing with issues like this and telling men they need to be the ones to just start doing it - not wait to be asked, or told or forced or whatever - just start assuming that they do at least 50% of everything home or child related if their partner also works outside the home.  Never going to happen but I can dream.

[PRgal]

2 minutes ago, WinnieWinkle said:

And it's still women being expected to be the ones to have this conversation in the first place.  I am living for the day when magazines aimed at men start having articles in them dealing with issues like this and telling men they need to be the ones to just start doing it - not wait to be asked, or told or forced or whatever - just start assuming that they do at least 50% of everything home or child related if their partner also works outside the home.  Never going to happen but I can dream.

When my son was born, my husband opted to WFH rather than actually taking leave.  Imagine a woman saying that she's going to WFH instead of taking mat leave!  What will people say?  She'd be mom-shamed FOR SURE!  And that'll come from women and from men.  

ETA:  And more than one woman has criticized me for bringing this very topic up in a conversation about equal pay and breaking the glass ceiling.  Ummmm, the stress and the fact that (in Canada, at least) you often take leave for a year puts you behind your career path.  Gone for a year?  Well, you're where you were when you had the baby.  The person who was in a comparable position (say, manager)?  Well, you could be reporting into her when you're back.  All because she didn't have a baby.  

Edited July 18, 2021 by PRgal

[Bastet]

22 hours ago, WinnieWinkle said:

I am living for the day when magazines aimed at men start having articles in them dealing with issues like this and telling men they need to be the ones to just start doing it - not wait to be asked, or told or forced or whatever - just start assuming that they do at least 50% of everything home or child related if their partner also works outside the home.

As a lawyer, I talk about parenting in terms of joint and several liability, because I think it's a prime real world example: all parties are equally liable, and if one doesn't do their share, the others are entitled to go after them.  So all these men who think they should get a cookie - or a blow job - for doing 30% of the parenting and household work when so many guys only do 15% can go fuck themselves, because they're still falling far short of their obligation.

The "second shift" is almost as pronounced as when Arlie Hochschild and Anne Machung published their book of the same name in the late '80s; the smallest gap any individual study has shown still has women doing twice the housework and child care as men, and most show a larger gulf.

And that, like so many other things, plays into the unequal pay asked about.  Because it all comes down to sexism, even where discrimination by the employer is not the sole cause - all the well, yeah, but that's because excuses for women earning less are rooted in how sexist ideas and practices play out as intended.  It's a patriarchy; it's designed to work this way, it's not the inevitable result of how things naturally work.

Edited July 19, 2021 by Bastet

[PRgal]

Social conditioning is big.  Because that’s why women are willing to mom-shame other women.  You’re never going to be ideal because you’re feeding (or not feeding) your child XYZ or because kiddo isn’t taking this or that.  Or going to such and such a school.  Or whatever.  Dads don’t do this to other dads.  

[Bastet]

24 minutes ago, PRgal said:

Dads don’t do this to other dads.

Because dads aren't held to ridiculously high standards like moms are (in fact, they are held to ridiculously low standards; as Michael Chabon said in Manhood for Amateurs, "The handy thing about being a father is that the historic standard is so pitifully low") -- research shows that when both parents work, women spend 400 percent (no, I did not accidentally type an extra zero, that's four hundred percent) more time with the kids - and where only the woman is employed, she still does the majority of the child care and household tasks - yet their parenting is what gets scrutinized.  And just in general, men aren't pitted against each other the way women are.

 

[PRgal]

9 hours ago, Bastet said:

Because dads aren't held to ridiculously high standards like moms are (in fact, they are held to ridiculously low standards; as Michael Chabon said in Manhood for Amateurs, "The handy thing about being a father is that the historic standard is so pitifully low") -- research shows that when both parents work, women spend 400 percent (no, I did not accidentally type an extra zero, that's four hundred percent) more time with the kids - and where only the woman is employed, she still does the majority of the child care and household tasks - yet their parenting is what gets scrutinized.  And just in general, men aren't pitted against each other the way women are.

 

Yep.  My husband’s idea of playtime is sitting watching TV with the kid.  He’ll do “hide a toy and make the kid laugh” too.  But I’m the one who reads stories, sings songs, etc…not that I dislike it (just don’t make me read The Very Hungry Caterpillar more than once a week). 

[WinnieWinkle]

18 hours ago, PRgal said:

Social conditioning is big.  Because that’s why women are willing to mom-shame other women.  You’re never going to be ideal because you’re feeding (or not feeding) your child XYZ or because kiddo isn’t taking this or that.  Or going to such and such a school.  Or whatever.  Dads don’t do this to other dads.

When I was a young mother the big battle was the classic "which mom is better"  also known as "which mom has it harder" the working mom or the stay at home mom.  I'm sad to see that 30 years later this is still going on.  I've got a niece who is homeschooling her kids and doesn't just stay home because it's her choice she has to put down any woman who goes out to work.  She also talks endlessly about the "financial sacrifices" she's making as if women who work are just working because they want to be able to afford Starbucks.   I want to hand a her a reality cheque and suggest that the "financial sacrifice" she is making now may bite her in the ass when she's older.  I think though she's going to have to learn this the hard way.  In the meantime I  wish she'd stop acting like women who work are doing it because they don't love their kids as much as she loves hers!

Edited July 19, 2021 by WinnieWinkle

[RealHousewife]

On 7/18/2021 at 2:49 PM, PRgal said:

My question is this:  Why don't we talk MORE about encouraging MEN to do more of the unpaid labour WE do?  It's always about US, and it's a bit self-centred, IMHO.  If we want TRUE equality, we need the men MORE involved with what we do.  We need THEM to do more of the chauffeuring.  More of the cooking, cleaning, childcare, etc...one of the factors of us being paid less (in general, anyway) is because we have more to do at home, so we're MORE exhausted at work, and therefore, putting LESS effort in.  Just a thought.

That's the ideal way to go imo. My dad was awesome in the sense that he provided but was also very involved after work. If I have kids, to me it is a choice, and no one needs to pay me to take care of my own kids, clean my own house, cook our own meals. I'm all for making jobs more mom and dad friendly, but I don't take it as far as some others do. To me jobs need to be more flexible for everyone, and fathers need to do more housework. I also just think a couple needs to figure out what's fair for them. Every family situation is unique. 

19 minutes ago, WinnieWinkle said:

When I was a young mother the big battle was the classic "which mom is better"  also known as "which mom has it harder" the working mom or the stay at home mom.  I'm sad to see that 30 years later this is still going on.  I've got a niece who is homeschooling her kids and doesn't just stay home because it's her choice she has to put down any woman who goes out to work.  She also talks endlessly about the "financial sacrifices" she's making as if women who work are just working because they want to be able to afford Starbucks.   I want to hand a her a reality cheque and suggest that the "financial sacrifice" she is making now may bite her in the ass when she's older.  I think though she's going to have to learn this the hard way.  In the meantime I  wish she'd stop acting like women who work are doing it because they don't love their kids as much as she loves hers!

Oh gosh, this is another debate that can get heated. I'm all for SAHMs, but one of my pet peeves is when they say they have it harder, or worse, love their kids more. Is being a SAHM noble and hard? Yes. Do I consider it enough to keep a woman busy? Yes again. Do I think she has it harder than a woman who has to deal with a boss, rush hour traffic, deadlines, quotes, customers, clients, etc. in addition to motherhood? I do not. I think society went from not valuing the work of mothers to some then putting down working mothers in an effort to put SAHMs on a pedestal. 

[PRgal]

26 minutes ago, RealHousewife said:

That's the ideal way to go imo. My dad was awesome in the sense that he provided but was also very involved after work. If I have kids, to me it is a choice, and no one needs to pay me to take care of my own kids, clean my own house, cook our own meals. I'm all for making jobs more mom and dad friendly, but I don't take it as far as some others do. To me jobs need to be more flexible for everyone, and fathers need to do more housework. I also just think a couple needs to figure out what's fair for them. Every family situation is unique. 

Oh gosh, this is another debate that can get heated. I'm all for SAHMs, but one of my pet peeves is when they say they have it harder, or worse, love their kids more. Is being a SAHM noble and hard? Yes. Do I consider it enough to keep a woman busy? Yes again. Do I think she has it harder than a woman who has to deal with a boss, rush hour traffic, deadlines, quotes, customers, clients, etc. in addition to motherhood? I do not. I think society went from not valuing the work of mothers to some then putting down working mothers in an effort to put SAHMs on a pedestal. 

Other than possibly budget, I don’t know why a SAHM has it harder.  Working moms have to deal with having to do all the work after eight or more hours at work (and as a WFH mom (who was working from home long before the pandemic), you also have to deal with noise during the day.  Luckily, I have not been video bombed….yet)!  I’m lucky to have help with childcare and cleaning, but I’m still the chef.  

[RealHousewife]

1 minute ago, PRgal said:

Other than possibly budget, I don’t know why a SAHM has it harder.  Working moms have to deal with having to do all the work after eight or more hours at work (and as a WFH mom (who was working from home long before the pandemic), you also have to deal with noise during the day.  Luckily, I have not been video bombed….yet)!  I’m lucky to have help with childcare and cleaning, but I’m still the chef.  

Their argument is that kids don't give you a break, but that at work you get breaks. They also say it's a 24/7 job, which is a stupid argument, as if working moms aren't moms once they're home. Uhh, they're even more busy because they haven't had the several hours at home to take care of laundry, prepare food, etc. There are many jobs where your break is not guaranteed either. I know for a fact lots of SAHMs nap when their little ones are napping. Working moms are still moms even if they work in an office. It's so silly to say just because you don't have kids nearby that your day is easy. One reason I'm all for SAHMs if they can afford it is because how hard a working mother has to work. I've been told I'll change my mind if I have kids, but I think some people just want to shut me down for a difference of opinion. 

[peacheslatour]

Quote

 I want to hand a her a reality cheque and suggest that the "financial sacrifice" she is making now may bite her in the ass when she's older.

This is the main reason I worked when my son was small. Employers don't like to see big gaps in your resume and I wanted my skills to stay fresh.

[RealHousewife]

2 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

This is the main reason I worked when my son was small. Employers don't like to see big gaps in your resume and I wanted my skills to stay fresh.

This is another thing that needs to stop. I wish employers wouldn't judge if someone was a stay-at-home parent. 

[peacheslatour]

40 minutes ago, RealHousewife said:

This is another thing that needs to stop. I wish employers wouldn't judge if someone was a stay-at-home parent. 

It was a hard realization to come to and I agree. 

[PRgal]

@peacheslatour @RealHousewife: And employers should consider the years as a stay-at-home-parent as "experience."  Hey, it's A LOT of management, right?  And those "employees" you're managing can be A LOT more toxic.  

Edited July 20, 2021 by PRgal

[peacheslatour]

5 minutes ago, PRgal said:

@peacheslatour @RealHousewife: And employers should consider the years as a stay-at-home-parent as "experience."  Hey, it's A LOT of management, right?  And those "employees" you're managing can be A LOT more toxic.  

Little buggers!

[WinnieWinkle]

17 hours ago, RealHousewife said:

This is another thing that needs to stop. I wish employers wouldn't judge if someone was a stay-at-home parent. 

How much is that a judgement of a stay at home parent though as it is a judgement of someone who has been out of work for X number of years?  IME (admittedly in a female dominated profession) there is an acceptance of women being off work for child care - this is actually in my opinion the one  benefit to being a woman in the working world.  Men being off work for a similar length of time better have a really good reason - and staying home to care for kids isn't going to cut it in most situations.

[supposebly]

If stay-at-home time were actually taken by and offered to most men, the difference wouldn't be so much and each parent would take a lot less. Part time options, job share options, etc. I don't believe the argument that it cuts down on your career options. 

I sometimes feel that the 90s credo that "you can have it all" has turned into "you do it all". And many men still don't pull their weight. What I don't understand is why so many women still accept this. Never even mind that it feels like raising children has become even more of a job than it used to be. When I hear my friends telling me how involved they have to be in their children's school activities, (bake sales, volunteering, etc.), how unacceptable it has become to have their kids walk/bike to school by themselves, I don't recall my mom ever doing any of this. I got to school and back on my own by the time I was six. 

I have no children, but it really feels like it's more work than when I was a kid. And there is a lot more judging. Maybe I'm wrong.

[PRgal]

17 minutes ago, supposebly said:

If stay-at-home time were actually taken by and offered to most men, the difference wouldn't be so much and each parent would take a lot less. Part time options, job share options, etc. I don't believe the argument that it cuts down on your career options. 

I sometimes feel that the 90s credo that "you can have it all" has turned into "you do it all". And many men still don't pull their weight. What I don't understand is why so many women still accept this. Never even mind that it feels like raising children has become even more of a job than it used to be. When I hear my friends telling me how involved they have to be in their children's school activities, (bake sales, volunteering, etc.), how unacceptable it has become to have their kids walk/bike to school by themselves, I don't recall my mom ever doing any of this. I got to school and back on my own by the time I was six. 

I have no children, but it really feels like it's more work than when I was a kid. And there is a lot more judging. Maybe I'm wrong.

Stay-at-home time is offered to men in Canada and many don't take it.  I think most who DO are either single dads or part of a same sex couple.

[BlackberryJam]

Mom-petition is really anti-feminism. It's women bringing other women down. Society already holds women to ridiculously high standards. It's sad that women do the same to each other. Instead of bonding over shared experiences, it's a game of OneUpsMomShip. 

Count me as one who walked alone almost a mile back and forth to school starting in 1st grade. (Mom walked halfway my kindergarten year.) My parents never attended a sporting practice and only went to one or two of my games. They were fine that I was pretty average at sports and they never, ever considered "select" teams for me. It was the same for most of my friends. Our parents' social circle wasn't the parents of their children's friends. 

Now it seems like parents (moms usually) have to be at every practice, every game, provide snacks, wear t-shirts/buttons/hats supporting their child, have "team" events with the parents of the other children on the team like team taco night or team cook outs. The stay at home parent's entire social circle revolves around the child. So I suppose it seems natural that these parents would compete the same way their children are competing for spots on the team, coach's time and attention, and perhaps scholarships. 

Women are ambitious and competitive, but when the sole job is parenting, that ambition gets transferred to ambition for the child and women begin competing with other women. In business, I love ambitious and competitive women, because it's often those women who support other women. They (we) are all so sick of the success of the mediocre white male, that they (we) do what they (we) can to see women succeed. 

[WinnieWinkle]

32 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

They (we) are all so sick of the success of the mediocre white male, that they (we) do what they (we) can to see women succeed. 

This, a thousand times this.  And women (in general) have contributed to this, and still are.

I remember in library school there were a handful of men as opposed to women in my class.  Guess who the class president and vice president were?  And it was the female dominated class that elected them.  It was mind boggling to me at the time and it still pisses me off when I remember it.  

Edited July 20, 2021 by WinnieWinkle

[peacheslatour]

Quote

Now it seems like parents (moms usually) have to be at every practice, every game, provide snacks, wear t-shirts/buttons/hats supporting their child, have "team" events with the parents of the other children on the team like team taco night or team cook outs. The stay at home parent's entire social circle revolves around the child. So I suppose it seems natural that these parents would compete the same way their children are competing for spots on the team, coach's time and attention, and perhaps scholarships. 

I never did any of that because my son wasn't into sports and my friends were not other parents. Oh, we'd have  Fourth of July BBQs and have the neighborhood kids parents over but I worked. My friends were mostly made up of coworkers. Now in high school my son was on the school paper and into Drama, with us attending all of his plays and so forth but when he was little the only rah rah thing I did was volunteer at school one afternoon a week to help in the library,

[RealHousewife]

15 hours ago, WinnieWinkle said:

How much is that a judgement of a stay at home parent though as it is a judgement of someone who has been out of work for X number of years?  IME (admittedly in a female dominated profession) there is an acceptance of women being off work for child care - this is actually in my opinion the one  benefit to being a woman in the working world.  Men being off work for a similar length of time better have a really good reason - and staying home to care for kids isn't going to cut it in most situations.

I don't know exactly. I've heard a lot of moms worry about this issue though. My own mom was concerned about having been a SAHM and not having much work experience. She lacked confidence going after just any job because she felt there was no way she could compete with young, quick people. A mom friend I made at work did great, but she was also nervous about reentering the work force after so long. I'm sure a lot of people would understand, especially in a female dominated profession, but I can understand the concern women have about falling behind. I'm all for SAHDs, but I don't doubt they face more judgment than SAHMs. 

[WinnieWinkle]

5 hours ago, RealHousewife said:

I've heard a lot of moms worry about this issue though. My own mom was concerned about having been a SAHM and not having much work experience. She lacked confidence going after just any job because she felt there was no way she could compete with young, quick people.

I think it makes a difference how one defines SAHM too of course.  With most young women now that I know of women stay home for the first year after they have a child and then go back to work - and even that year (or two or three depending on # of children) can be a problem for them in terms of their upwards mobility.  But if when you talk about a SAHM you mean a woman who stays home at least until the youngest is in school, or even longer, that's a totally other issue.  Again, IME, this can be spun positively (whether it will work is another issue) but I completely agree that it ends up being much harder for a woman to re-renter the workforce, and if she's in a profession of any kind she's then years behind where she would have been had she never been a SAHM and of course that's bound to impact on her negatively - but I don't see a reasonable solution in that scenario to be honest.  Choice made - consequences inevitable really.  Which I wish I could get through to my niece - knowing her someday she will be railing about how cruel the world is because she took 18  years out of the working world and didn't get the corner office when she went back to work.

Edited July 21, 2021 by WinnieWinkle

[theredhead77]

Some professions, like accounting, aren't going to change in a couple years while others, like those in the tech industry can change substantially. People need to consider if their career path aligns with their life goals. We need to do better at providing parental leave, making it easier for new parents to bond and get in the swing of parenting and it's not unreasonable to expect to be able to slide back in to your existing position after 6 months or a year without losing any upward mobility ability.

If someone wants to take 10 years out of the work force for whatever reason, it's an unreasonable expectation to think they can jump in at the same level they once were or should have accommodations because they chose to stay at home and "could have been" a Director if they continued to work so therefore they should be able to jump in as a Director without those other 10 years of experience behind them. Unfortunately this impacts women far more than men and it's not a popular opinion to have, as a woman.

I personally think it's a terrible life choice for a woman to have no education and no work experience before having kids and continue to choose to not peruse either after having kids. It puts them in a situation that is ripe for abuse and/or a real hard time if things don't work out later on. IMHO part of being a feminist is advocating for women to make sure they can take care of themselves and their kids without the support of a partner.

Edited July 21, 2021 by theredhead77
Clarification / tyops

[BlackberryJam]

As a small business owner, when I'm hiring, I need an employee who is going to show up on time, every day, and work during work hours. I understand that women often want and need accommodation if they are also the primary caregivers, but I'm not paying them to be primary caregivers. My industry does not provide for flexible work hours. So the office needs opened at 8am and phones need answered all day long. I can't have the office opened at 8:15am every Wednesday because my employee is carpool parent that day, and I can't have calls go unanswered because little Jamie bit another kid at daycare and my staff is on the phone dealing with the situation...four times in one week. 

I would love it if my industry were more flexible, but it's not. And I'm answerable to my clients, who need the office open and the phone answered. My clients are paying for service.

Parenting is a full time job, I get it. But as a small business, coverage for these things isn't available. I pay higher than other similar employers in the area and I provide 120 hours of PTO, free health insurance and an IRA contribution (not a match, just a straight salary percentage.) I also bonus generously end of year and at least one other time during the year. But when my employees are here, their time is mine. I'm paying for it. Emergencies happen, but I can't have an employee with an emergency three times every week.  

So yeah....I've had to let an employee go because within 3 months, she'd used 98 hours of PTO running her kids to sporting events and orthodontic appointments. The work wasn't getting done. 

I hated it because I liked her, but I couldn't continue to pay her for...nothing. On top of that, I can't find people to do a job share, because then they both want free insurance, and they both expect at least 60-70% of the salary. So, that would cost me...a lot. 

My perspective as a business owner is different. I would love to be able to afford to give flex time and more PTO and accommodate schedules, but if I did that, no one would hire me and I'd go broke. 

I don't care if a prospective employee has been out of the workforce. My concern is that they can devote time, attention and focus to the job during business hours.

 

[PRgal]

1 hour ago, theredhead77 said:

Some professions, like accounting, aren't going to change in a couple years while others, like those in the tech industry can change substantially. People need to consider if their career path aligns with their life goals. We need to do better at providing parental leave, making it easier for new parents to bond and get in the swing of parenting and it's not unreasonable to expect to be able to slide back in to your existing position after 6 months or a year without losing any upward mobility ability.

If someone wants to take 10 years out of the work force for whatever reason, it's an unreasonable expectation to think they can jump in at the same level they once were or should have accommodations because they chose to stay at home and "could have been" a Director if they continued to work so therefore they should be able to jump in as a Director without those other 10 years of experience behind them. Unfortunately this impacts women far more than men and it's not a popular opinion to have, as a woman.

I personally think it's a terrible life choice for a woman to have no education and no work experience before having kids and continue to choose to not peruse either after having kids. It puts them in a situation that is ripe for abuse and/or a real hard time if things don't work out later on. IMHO part of being a feminist is advocating for women to make sure they can take care of themselves and their kids without the support of a partner.

I agree with you and that's why I'm always concerned for Canadian women who choose to take the entire year off after having their first child (I keep my mouth shut because I don't want to be "cancelled").  One year might not mean much, but one year olds are also difficult and if the child is in daycare, they could be sick fairly often (thanks, germy kids!).  Who's taking the baby to the doctor?  Mom.  You're not really one year behind your career!  Add the second shift to that and it's even worse.  But many don't see it this way and I roll my eyes at that.  And I'm saying this as a mom myself (though I AM lucky to have help).  If you want true equality and inclusion, you have to fix more than the traditional office environment.  You have to fix how MEN think about running the household.  It ain't just mowing the lawn, dudes!  Besides, for some industries, even one year can mean a lot.  My mom worked in IT.  It wasn't as fast-paced in 1979 (year I was born) then and mat leave wasn't an entire year, but imagine how challenging it would be for her if she were a generation younger if she missed a year?  

Edited July 21, 2021 by PRgal

[peacheslatour]

Quote

Some professions, like accounting, aren't going to change in a couple years 

That's not quite true either. It depends. Bookkeeping isn't going to change much but a CPA is a different thing altogether. Tax laws change all the time. 

[BlackberryJam]

9 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

That's not quite true either. It depends. Bookkeeping isn't going to change much but a CPA is a different thing altogether. Tax laws change all the time. 

The 2019 tax law changes were massive. My CPA had to do a ton of continuing education. As to bookkeeping, there have been big changes during COVID with payroll. 

I know many, many women who want to take that year off after giving birth because they can't imagine leaving their infant with day care providers (or even family members). So they make that choice and don't regret it in the slightest. The bigger struggle I see is with women who take off 5-6 years and then want to re-enter the workforce, but often not in their chosen field, but working at the school as an aide of some sort. 

Then that child graduates high school, husband decides to buy a Jeep Wrangler and a meat smoker as he heads into his midlife crisis and wife wants a divorce. But she lives in an area where spousal support (new name for alimony) is low, because it's not standard across most states, and that job at the school pays 14/hr for 32 hours a week for 40 weeks a year and you can't live on that. There's no child support because the children are over 18 and she has to dissipate her share of marital assets just to live. 

I do a lot of speaking to teenagers/college students about what I do, business ownership and that kind of stuff. I constantly steer women into science and engineering fields, or if they aren't interested in college, plumbing and electricity. Those "trades" provide more flexible hours with more opportunity than clerical work. Not to mention the pay differential. You can pick up "side jobs" while being a stay at home parent doing home repair to maintain skills. My electrician friend pays his employees 70k year, starting salary plus overtime. And if you're untrained, he'll train you first year paying hourly. It's a great job because the skills don't deteriorate or you have plenty of opportunity to keep them up without taking huge blocks of time away from a child.

Go forth women, become plumbers and electricians! It's the job for moms!

 

[peacheslatour]

Quote

I know many, many women who want to take that year off after giving birth because they can't imagine leaving their infant with day care providers (or even family members). So they make that choice and don't regret it in the slightest. 

I didn't work while I was pregnant because I worked in a paint store. They were wonderful to me and continued my health insurance for almost three years until I came back. Retail is in my blood (both parents were business owners) so I didn't miss a beat but other jobs are completely different.

Edit: My parents did not own the paint store. Lol.

Edited July 21, 2021 by peacheslatour

[theredhead77]

15 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

That's not quite true either. It depends. Bookkeeping isn't going to change much but a CPA is a different thing altogether. Tax laws change all the time. 

True. Obviously, I'm not in any "accounting" field.

 

1 hour ago, BlackberryJam said:

As a small business owner, when I'm hiring, I need an employee who is going to show up on time, every day, and work during work hours. I understand that women often want and need accommodation if they are also the primary caregivers, but I'm not paying them to be primary caregivers. My industry does not provide for flexible work hours. So the office needs opened at 8am and phones need answered all day long. I can't have the office opened at 8:15am every Wednesday because my employee is carpool parent that day, and I can't have calls go unanswered because little Jamie bit another kid at daycare and my staff is on the phone dealing with the situation...four times in one week.

This is exactly what I mean when I say people need to consider if the job or career is right for their life trajectory. 

 

29 minutes ago, PRgal said:

You have to fix how MEN think about running the household.

I would say men have to fix how they think about running the household. It's our responsibility to clearly communicate our needs and wants and their responsibility to act on them and make necessary changes within them to get with the program.  In my social circle the men are equal parents to the women and both parties typically communicate when they need something done because no one is a mind-reader.

My dad was very involved. I remember my mom was out of the country and I got super sick. My dad called out of work to take me to the doctor and parent me. Maybe things would have been different if his mom was alive (my paternal grandfather lived around the corner and babysat me so my parents could go out), or if my maternal grandparents lived closer but he didn't try to pawn me off on a sitter. No, he parented his kid. 

44 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

I do a lot of speaking to teenagers/college students about what I do, business ownership and that kind of stuff. I constantly steer women into science and engineering fields, or if they aren't interested in college, plumbing and electricity. Those "trades" provide more flexible hours with more opportunity than clerical work. Not to mention the pay differential. You can pick up "side jobs" while being a stay at home parent doing home repair to maintain skills. My electrician friend pays his employees 70k year, starting salary plus overtime. And if you're untrained, he'll train you first year paying hourly. It's a great job because the skills don't deteriorate or you have plenty of opportunity to keep them up without taking huge blocks of time away from a child.

I work in a "professional role" in a trade industry. I have for almost my entire career. In the next few years there is going to be a huge shortage of trade-skilled workers as the older generation retires and the younger generation was directed towards college. I know this thread is about feminism and but as a side bar society needs to do a better job of promoting the trades instead of college to all genders.

[peacheslatour]

Quote

I work in a "professional role" in a trade industry. I have for almost my entire career. In the next few years there is going to be a huge shortage of trade-skilled workers as the older generation retires and the younger generation was directed towards college. I know this thread is about feminism and but as a side bar society needs to do a better job of promoting the trades instead of college to all genders.

I was just talking to someone who said "Women won't take the hard physical jobs and that's why they make less money than men." No, they do take hard physical jobs. Have you ever tried to lift a three hundred pound, uncooperative Alzheimer's patient into a wheelchair or a bath tub? Maybe they just don't like the sexist, toxic environments that surround most of the trades.

[BlackberryJam]

2 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

I was just talking to someone who said "Women won't take the hard physical jobs and that's why they make less money than men." No, they do take hard physical jobs. Have you ever tried to lift a three hundred pound, uncooperative Alzheimer's patient into a wheelchair or a bath tub? Maybe they just don't like the sexist, toxic environments that surround most of the trades.

That toxicity is changing, but damn, it’s slow. With the lack of skilled labor, many businesses are working to create a better environment to attract and keep workers. That means diversity training and set standards of behavior.

Those women in the care industries are getting their asses and breasts grabbed by those Alzheimer’s patients and told, “Oh it’s just his condition. We can’t do anything about it.” 

Going out to a home to repair a plugged garbage disposal is no more risky and no more physical than going out to a home to help an elderly patient with toileting.

[RealHousewife]

I'm loving the conversations guys! I'm glad I'm not the only feminist who doesn't go so far as to say yes, let's all pay all mothers to be at home with their kids for extended periods of time. I thought the Marshall Plan for Moms was nuts. I do think personal choice matters, and while I don't like mommy shaming, I don't care for mommy martyrdom either. 

I also look up femininity content, and some of the women are against feminism. Some of them argue it's because feminists don't put jobs that are female dominated on a pedestal. I don't know many feminists who don't want school teachers and such to be paid more, but I think some of these ladies want the same benefits of work and oohing and awing "high achievers" get. Being at home is noble, but you're not going to get the same benefits and money as someone who works for a company. You get the benefit of more time with your children, not missing out on moments, not dealing with the stress of a work environment, etc. Also, while a lot of female dominated work is underpaid, not all work deserves doctor pay either. It doesn't mean you're not a great person, not smart, etc. We all make our decisions. I don't expect to make surgeon money or get accolades of a scientist. That's not on feminists!

Women definitely deal with the stress of harassment in a way that men typically don't. I was always scared of being a server because I did not want to be pinched. 

Regarding pay, I think there are a number of factors. I do personally think the career choices we make are a huge factor.  It's true that men often take on more dangerous work. For example, I don't personally know any female roofers. I do know a male one who died because he fell. :(

[Bastet]

7 hours ago, theredhead77 said:

I would say men have to fix how they think about running the household. It's our responsibility to clearly communicate our needs and wants and their responsibility to act on them and make necessary changes within them to get with the program. 

Exactly.  Feminists have been explaining for decades what needs to change within homes as well as workplaces.  It's not our failing that men still think "domestic" duties are women's with which they magnanimously help.  It's their failing not to understand they are equally responsible for caring for the home in which they live and the children they have spawned.  We go out there and fight for paid parental, not maternity, leave, and men still refuse to take it.  Between men who actively work to uphold the patriarchy and those who turn a blind eye to the privileges it bestows on them, the choices women make within a system that is rigged against them should not be the primary focus of conversation.

It's the yeah, but syndrome, where you lay out all the institutional barriers and sexist stereotypes that create inequality, and someone wants to say, "Yeah, but she could have done this instead."  And I'd love to talk with them about what she could have done differently, so we learn from each other how to navigate this system while we're dismantling it, after we tackle the myriad things those with more power should do differently, so her options are better.

Edited July 21, 2021 by Bastet

[RealHousewife]

Do you all think women can tell which men would be equals in a relationship and which ones expect the women to take on most/all of the housework despite working outside the home?

I’d want to know exactly where a man stands on all these issues prior to marriage or children, but I feel like most women would. Maybe some men put on the phony act of believing in feminism. I also know men who rag on feminists but are totally supportive partners and help out with kids, cooking, cleaning all of it. Maybe one thing we can look for is men who know how to look after themselves so hopefully they’re not just looking for cooks/maids in a partner? I’d love to hear your thoughts. 

[peacheslatour]

Quote

You get the benefit of more time with your children, not missing out on moments, not dealing with the stress of a work environment, etc. 

I remember once complaining to my career driven mother about my husband working long hours, being cranky when he got home, all that stuff when I was staying home with my infant and she said "You have the sanctuary of the home, you need to be the calm one right now. This will change when you go back to work." And she was right.

Quote

Do you all think women can tell which men would be equals in a relationship and which ones expect the women to take on most/all of the housework despite working outside the home?

The best way to find out is to live together before you get married. It was an eye opener for me on more than one occasion.

[Bastet]

You can get a sense, and living together is a great way of finding out, but there are still women faced with an unpleasant surprise after marriage, when those outdated notions of what it means to be a wife creep in, and the man is different in some subtle ways that add up.  And there are a ton of instances where the boyfriend/husband was a decent partner in the family until parenting was added to the mix, and then he's nowhere near as equal a participant in that.

So you can know where a man says he stands, or even truly believes himself to stand, but not until you live with him are you going to know how he'll really be, and even then marriage and, especially, parenthood can change things.  It's not on women to use our special powers and correctly predict our partner's future behavior (not that you were suggesting it was!), but to be clear on what we deserve and expect (and we need to be firm early, because what we ignore we allow and then it's even more of a battle when we hit our breaking point), and then it's on men to live up to their responsibilities.

Edited July 21, 2021 by Bastet

[RealHousewife]

A friend of mine recently had a baby. She rushed into marriage super quickly. Thank goodness her husband has been wonderful. He’s the only one who has a job right now, but he still helps a ton with changing diapers and feedings. He doesn’t want her to be tired, and he loves their baby and caring for him. 

[peacheslatour]

Quote

You can get a sense, and living together is a great way of finding out, but there are still women faced with an unpleasant surprise after marriage, when those outdated notions of what it means to be a wife creep in, and the man is different in some subtle ways that add up.  And there are a ton of instances where the boyfriend/husband was a decent partner in the family until parenting was added to the mix, and then he's nowhere near as equal a participant in that.

This is why I waited until six years after we got married to have a kid. We were really stable by then and I had pretty much seen every side of him. We both really wanted that baby and since I had to have a C-section and spiked a fever in the hospital, he pretty much was the sole caregiver for the first two weeks.

[isalicat]

I agree wholeheartedly with the "living together" before marriage idea - I went into marriage with the idea that divorce was not an option for religious reasons but was able to do this because my husband and I had firmly established a partnership before making that ultimate commitment, and you can't have a true partnership if you don't know the other person fully, both the bad and the good.

We had a very long, hard road to parenting (no baby for you, said the doctors after years of trying and then surgery; God said: baby for you! so there!) and since I had a great career going that made enough for us all to live on, my husband gave up working outside the home for the most part and became the primary caregiving parent. That included everything (diaper changes, doing all the household laundry and cleaning, etc. etc.) except breastfeeding (I was working from a home office so he could bring my son in, let him feed, and then take him away again as needed). My husband was the only dad at toddler playgroup and pretty much the only dad doing the afterschool pick up, soccer practice, you name it.

Because of our less than conventional choices (and this was in a very rural community) we did not really bond with most of my kid's friends' parents but we really did not care as our son grew up without the need for outside child care and more importantly got to see what real emancipation from traditional gender roles can be like. Win-win for everyone!

[peacheslatour]

Quote

Because of our less than conventional choices (and this was in a very rural community) we did not really bond with most of my kid's friends' parents but we really did not care as our son grew up without the need for outside child care and more importantly got to see what real emancipation from traditional gender roles can be like. Win-win for everyone!

It's so important for kids to grow up with parents who are equal partners. I did and I didn't expect anything else out of any relationship I was in. My husband's mom was an executive and they had a housekeeper but he was still expected to do his own laundry, keep his room ship shape and pitch in with any chores that needed doing. Funnily enough, when I first met him he had a group of friends that would show up every Sunday morning with bags of food and he would make fabulous breakfasts. He still does. His Christmas breakfasts are legendary.

[PRgal]

4 hours ago, peacheslatour said:

It's so important for kids to grow up with parents who are equal partners. I did and I didn't expect anything else out of any relationship I was in. My husband's mom was an executive and they had a housekeeper but he was still expected to do his own laundry, keep his room ship shape and pitch in with any chores that needed doing. Funnily enough, when I first met him he had a group of friends that would show up every Sunday morning with bags of food and he would make fabulous breakfasts. He still does. His Christmas breakfasts are legendary.

Good for him!  My husband’s family was more traditional than mine and I think that’s one reason why he doesn’t seem to “participate” as much.  My grandparents lived with us and they (mostly my grandmother) did most of the housework my mom would have had to do had she stayed home.  When it came to raising me, my parents were fairly equal (with my dad being the main person who disciplined me.  Yep, all my grounding sentences were handed out by Dad.  Mom was more the one who dealt with all my medical appointments, especially after I was diagnosed with epilepsy), though I have to admit that I was quite the handful.  However, my grandmother was not exactly the world’s best chef.  I learned nothing from her and don’t really have the same nostalgia about home cooking as many people….