S22.E14: Post-Graduate Psychopath

[CrystalBlue]

I never thought it was anything but Henry 2.0 and was not looking for a convoluted twist of framing him.  Child Henry killed Snowball, and you can never come back from that, in my book.

I noticed in the credits they have Rollins' daughter credited as Jesse Rollins Murphy, which leads me to again ask when is Donal Logue coming back?  This is the only Amanda family drama I want to see.

The fake out of where's Jesse (kidnapped!?) and her having a new Snowball was cringey.

Other than that, I enjoyed the ride of this episode.  And, no Noah!

[Devonte Huntley]

1 hour ago, CrystalBlue said:

I never thought it was anything but Henry 2.0 and was not looking for a convoluted twist of framing him.  Child Henry killed Snowball, and you can never come back from that, in my book.

I noticed in the credits they have Rollins' daughter credited as Jesse Rollins Murphy, which leads me to again ask when is Donal Logue coming back?  This is the only Amanda family drama I want to see.

Yes, CHILD HENRY killed Snowball. How can you think one can't change for killing a dog, but you're seemingly implying killing another PERSON isn't an issue when it comes to believing he can change this time around?

I'd love to see Donal League back, but Warren Leight sucks when it comes to continuity and returning characters and when he goes bring people back, he axes them and provide no explanation (Cutter, Novak, Cabot, etc.) so don't expect to see him back any time soon. But as the father and a reasonable man, he ought to be stopping by more to see Jessie. 

Noah, he just seems to be non-existent these days. I don't recall seeing him at all this season. I don't see the hate for him because we ought to see these cops have kids. The issue with giving Olivia a son is that they waited TOO DAMN LATE. I always thought Seasons 6-9 was the perfect opportunity to give Olivia a child and have ELLIOT be the father after some affair. Little Eli should have been Olivia's kid and thus when Elliot left, we'd still have a part of him there as his son and he'd be a teenager now with some more storylines. Can't do much with a post-toddler child and it will be a while before we see Noah get caught up into some gritty stuff on his own actions. 

[Cristofle]

Oh yes, I never thought it was anyone but Henry either. Henry was deranged, and not in a way that could possibly be fixed. It made perfect sense that he would obliterate his family, especially a new young brother he viewed as some kind of replacement. The cops got called in the original episode because he was habitually harming his younger sister and it was getting progressively more dangerous. Of course he'd kill any other young sibling in the house. Henry was also manipulative and had shown an aptitude for fooling school counselors though, so it didn't surprise me he could fool psychiatrists and a fellow inmate's sister. 

[wknt3]

19 hours ago, Devonte Huntley said:

I'd love to see Donal League back, but Warren Leight sucks when it comes to continuity and returning characters and when he goes bring people back, he axes them and provide no explanation (Cutter, Novak, Cabot, etc.) so don't expect to see him back any time soon. But as the father and a reasonable man, he ought to be stopping by more to see Jessie.

Hmmmmm, Reading this and our earlier conversation about how Rollins doesn't seem to have taught her kids about stranger danger it does occur to me that there is one way that the Rollins family drama would have been worth it. Just add a scene after Benson and Rollins talk about how Henry was talking to her daughter.

Benson:  Jesse, Rollins' daughter, may have been approached by this guy.
Lt. Murphy walks in
Murphy; Which is precisely why I've been ordered to take custody of this child.
Rollins: Excuse me?
Benson: What are you doing here?
Murphy: CPS didn't call?
Rollins: No they didn't
Murphy: That's classic.

Would have elevated the episode from solidly above average to great.

[Devonte Huntley]

13 hours ago, Cristofle said:

Oh yes, I never thought it was anyone but Henry either. Henry was deranged, and not in a way that could possibly be fixed. It made perfect sense that he would obliterate his family, especially a new young brother he viewed as some kind of replacement. The cops got called in the original episode because he was habitually harming his younger sister and it was getting progressively more dangerous. Of course he'd kill any other young sibling in the house. Henry was also manipulative and had shown an aptitude for fooling school counselors though, so it didn't surprise me he could fool psychiatrists and a fellow inmate's sister. 

If that's the case, the plot error is the doctors being fooled by him so significantly and letting him go. It's implied he's the first one to do so and I can't imagine him being the worst one they ever had and if those people didn't get let out or slipped back into their old ways then clearly they should have been more cautious with Henry. If the story was going to let him out, then I would have liked to see him rehabilitated, or at least not show him doing anything wrong as far as the initial crimes that he is being framed for and perhaps the episode ends on an ambiguity if he will truly change or slip back into his old ways. But him being let out just to go back to doing the same thing at ease is just cliche and as you and many would expect "He's just deranged so OF COURSE he'd be the one doing this" but that's why I think they should have went the other direction. The beauty of L&O is the twists and this is one of those stories that should have had one. 

[MarylandGirl]

I agree that a plot twist would have made this much more interesting. If it had been anyone other than Henry. And they would have just assumed he'd get blamed. Still could have had the house of mirrors thing, only it's just him wanting to kill himself, not with a hostage. Like, "If I can't ever escape my past, what's the point of going on?" Oh, and mirrors, with him pointing the gun at his reflection.

[Cristofle]

On 5/27/2021 at 6:56 AM, Devonte Huntley said:

It's implied he's the first one to do so and I can't imagine him being the worst one they ever had and if those people didn't get let out or slipped back into their old ways then clearly they should have been more cautious with Henry. 

While Henry is implied to have a particularly severe...lack of a conscience, heh (I think both Huang and the doctor whose name I never remember made a point of him being "two standard deviations past" callous and unemotional behavior, and Huang said the only other criminals who had ever concerned him so much after one session were two serial killers) I think the real issue wasn't that he was the worst, but among the youngest. He was ten years old when he was originally locked up. I don't think you technically CAN diagnose someone as being a psychopath until they are at least eighteen since their brains are still developing. The system wasn't set up to fully handle Henry. His doctors were predisposed to believing he could get better as his brain developed. He just...didn't. But also, Benson's doctor said whoever let him out "should have their licenses revoked", indicating he believes severe mistakes were made in not taking Henry more seriously as the threat he is (psychopaths are manipulative and they should have at least considered the possibility of that).

[Devonte Huntley]

5 hours ago, Cristofle said:

While Henry is implied to have a particularly severe...lack of a conscience, heh (I think both Huang and the doctor whose name I never remember made a point of him being "two standard deviations past" callous and unemotional behavior, and Huang said the only other criminals who had ever concerned him so much after one session were two serial killers) I think the real issue wasn't that he was the worst, but among the youngest. He was ten years old when he was originally locked up. I don't think you technically CAN diagnose someone as being a psychopath until they are at least eighteen since their brains are still developing. The system wasn't set up to fully handle Henry. His doctors were predisposed to believing he could get better as his brain developed. He just...didn't. But also, Benson's doctor said whoever let him out "should have their licenses revoked", indicating he believes severe mistakes were made in not taking Henry more seriously as the threat he is (psychopaths are manipulative and they should have at least considered the possibility of that).

If he was that mentally screwed up as a child to even strike Huang as deadly, then there is no reason why they had to think he'd be fine within eight years especially when he's still "developing" since he's a teenager and most people are still developing their brains well into their twenties. He definitely should have stayed a few more years. 

Edited May 28, 2021 by Devonte Huntley

[MorbidPet]

Born Psychopath is one of my favorite episodes of the entire series so was really looking forward to this one. This ep didn't really come close to that one but there were good bits. Creepy Henry/Ethan Cutkosky being the best. I don't care how silly the fun house was, it was still exciting with nice camera work so whatever. I'm surprised Henry gave up that easy after his killing spree tho. Happy Ruby got out alive poor kid. 

I read somewhere Huang was supposed to guest star. Lindstrom is not a great shoefiller in my eyes. But I've never been a fan of his. I think it's because he's linked too much to the worst episodes in series history, I've tried to get past it but can't, I'm sure the actor is good though, it's just the character I find creepy. 

I so knew it was coming, they always write Rollins that way, but I hated the last scene. Way to not protect your daughters Amanda. Insert eyeroll. And what I hated almost mostly was that it seemed they did it bc Rollisi!? A ship I'm not on for obvious reasons (Rollaro for life, insert another eyeroll at myself). So stupid but I guess I wouldn't mind seeing Henry/Ethan again so perhaps I shouldn't be pissed off.... 

On 5/26/2021 at 2:49 AM, CrystalBlue said:

I noticed in the credits they have Rollins' daughter credited as Jesse Rollins Murphy, which leads me to again ask when is Donal Logue coming back?  This is the only Amanda family drama I want to see.

Agree. Ever since Warren tweeted last season Murphy/Logue would be back I've been longing. I understand Covid could've come in the way but I really hope we'll see him next season. It's also the only Rollisi I'm interested in & yes Murphy to come out as winner so we can forever sink that Rollisi ship. 

[meatball77]

On 5/28/2021 at 4:48 PM, Devonte Huntley said:

If he was that mentally screwed up as a child to even strike Huang as deadly, then there is no reason why they had to think he'd be fine within eight years especially when he's still "developing" since he's a teenager and most people are still developing their brains well into their twenties. He definitely should have stayed a few more years. 

He was so young though.

I liked this episode, it was fun.  However, I wish they'd gone further with the story though.  Really use the psychopath creepy thing to keep everyone guessing, to make everyone wonder if that was what was really going on.

[dttruman]

On 5/28/2021 at 11:45 AM, Cristofle said:

I don't think you technically CAN diagnose someone as being a psychopath until they are at least eighteen since their brains are still developing. The system wasn't set up to fully handle Henry. His doctors were predisposed to believing he could get better as his brain developed. He just...didn't. But also, Benson's doctor said whoever let him out "should have their licenses revoked", indicating he believes severe mistakes were made in not taking Henry more seriously as the threat he is (psychopaths are manipulative and they should have at least considered the possibility of that).

This is interesting and I wonder if the court may take something from this episode (I am being facetious) because recently a 14 year old boy is being charged as an adult for killing a 13 year old girl (stabbing her 114 times) down in Florida. Is this 13 year old considered a psychopath? I wonder if the writers may take something from this incident and put it in the next episode involving Henry.

https://www.fox13news.com/news/prosecutors-14-year-old-florida-boy-stabbed-13-year-old-girl-114-times-will-be-tried-as-an-adult

[shapeshifter]

On 5/28/2021 at 11:45 AM, Cristofle said:

...I don't think you technically CAN diagnose someone as being a psychopath until they are at least eighteen since their brains are still developing....

I agree in principle with your point, but just want to expand upon it a bit by pointing out that studies in recent years have confirmed that the part of the brain that makes decisions does not finish developing until age 25 or 26, and, just to split another hair, psycopathy is not an officially recognized diagnosis --it's "antisocial personality disorder," but I think TV shows use the more colloquial terms of "psychopath" and "sociopath" precisely because they are not medical terms, and so using them protects the show from any law suites over, oh, I don't know, but maybe disseminating false medical advice, or something else.

Anyhoo, they could bring back the actor in another 7 years when the character would be 25 if the show was still on (God, I hope not! But a reboot of Plain L&O could be cool) and have him convince everyone that his brain has now matured.
Or [instead of waiting 7 years] they could just have a new case [now or next season] with someone who is now 25 and has a similar case history.

Edited May 31, 2021 by shapeshifter
Clarity

[Cristofle]

2 hours ago, dttruman said:

This is interesting and I wonder if the court may take something from this episode (I am being facetious) because recently a 14 year old boy is being charged as an adult for killing a 13 year old girl (stabbing her 114 times) down in Florida. Is this 13 year old considered a psychopath? I wonder if the writers may take something from this incident and put it in the next episode involving Henry.

https://www.fox13news.com/news/prosecutors-14-year-old-florida-boy-stabbed-13-year-old-girl-114-times-will-be-tried-as-an-adult

Not going to lie, when I was reading about this case on CNN, the first thing I thought was how horrible it was (my God, stabbing her 114 times!), but later I definitely had a thought that SVU was going to do this case in an upcoming season, heh. 

And I think it does become a legally dicey problem that the brain does not magically finish developing at 18, so Henry was legally an adult, but could not yet be officially considered to have antisocial personality disorder and (obviously) still needed to be monitored. That said, I think in SVU world, Henry will never be redeemed. If he ever gets out again, he will keep killing people. His sister should probably change her name and leave the area, if not the country :/ 

[dttruman]

2 hours ago, Cristofle said:

Not going to lie, when I was reading about this case on CNN, the first thing I thought was how horrible it was (my God, stabbing her 114 times!), but later I definitely had a thought that SVU was going to do this case in an upcoming season, heh. 

The 14 year old killed the 13 year old girl about a month ago. Do you think the producers tweeked (as in reshot some scenes) this episode a little when they found out about this crime? When was this episode made, was it long before this crime happened?

[Devonte Huntley]

7 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Anyhoo, they could bring back the actor in another 7 years when the character would be 25 if the show was still on (God, I hope not! But a reboot of Plain L&O could be cool) and have him convince everyone that his brain has now matured.
Or they could just have a new case with someone who is now 25 and has a similar case history.

No. If they bring in another character like Henry in seven years and he's the same age Henry would be then, it might as well be Henry. Why introduce a "similar" character who'd be the same age? That's pointless. 

I think a missed opportunity they did was not bringing in that psychopath kid Chris Pollit from the original L&O, Season 4 episode "Born Bad" who apparently is genetically twisted and thus will remain "evil" for life. After murdering a friend of his for simply "making him mad", Chris didn't even want leniency because of what he was and didn't mind being locked up for a long time for murder. How cool would it have been to see this dude now older and coming across Henry to mentor him in a way, and a nice call back to L&O which they ought to be doing more of. Perhaps if they do bring Henry back again in the future, they can involve Chris in the picture. I tweeted this to Warren, let's see if actually does it.

Edited May 31, 2021 by Devonte Huntley

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, Devonte Huntley said:

9 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Anyhoo, they could bring back the actor in another 7 years when the character would be 25 if the show was still on (God, I hope not! But a reboot of Plain L&O could be cool) and have him convince everyone that his brain has now matured.
Or they could just have a new case with someone who is now 25 and has a similar case history.

No. If they bring in another character like Henry in seven years and he's the same age Henry would be then, it might as well be Henry. Why introduce a "similar" character who'd be the same age? That's pointless

Agreed, that would be pointless. But that’s not what I was trying to say. Sorry for not being clear.

I meant to suggest for my “Or” scenario, that instead of waiting another 7 years, at anytime (like next week or next season) the show could have a new character with a pointedly similar case history, but who is now 25 or 26 and just getting out of a criminally ill psychiatric facility after having convinced them that he (or she) is very remorseful and no longer a threat to society after much therapy and with a now mature brain. 
Choose your own adventure for the rest of the episode. 
Or maybe have 2 such episodes with different outcomes. 

[dttruman]

3 hours ago, Devonte Huntley said:

No. If they bring in another character like Henry in seven years and he's the same age Henry would be then, it might as well be Henry. Why introduce a "similar" character who'd be the same age? That's pointless. 

I think a missed opportunity they did was not bringing in that psychopath kid Chris Pollit from the original L&O, Season 4 episode "Born Bad" who apparently is genetically twisted and thus will remain "evil" for life. After murdering a friend of his for simply "making him mad", Chris didn't even want leniency because of what he was and didn't mind being locked up for a long time for murder. How cool would it have been to see this dude now older and coming across Henry to mentor him in a way, and a nice call back to L&O which they ought to be doing more of. Perhaps if they do bring Henry back again in the future, they can involve Chris in the picture. I tweeted this to Warren, let's see if actually does it.

At least Chris (I believe) is more forthcoming than Henry, when it comes to their murderous rages. Henry is more dangerous because of his talent for manipulating people. This would never happen because to be effective, they would have to show Chris and Henry interacting a lot. This would take away too much of Benson and Rollins time.

In another Law & Order episode, wasn't there a little girl about Henry's age who was suspected of killing a younger kid. I don't remember the name of the episode, just the ending where McCoy see the girl talking to another younger kid. How about matching up this girl and Henry?

[Devonte Huntley]

1 hour ago, shapeshifter said:

Agreed, that would be pointless. But that’s not what I was trying to say. Sorry for not being clear.

I meant to suggest for my “Or” scenario, that instead of waiting another 7 years, at anytime (like next week or next season) the show could have a new character with a pointedly similar case history, but who is now 25 or 26 and just getting out of a criminally ill psychiatric facility after having convinced them that he (or she) is very remorseful and no longer a threat to society after much therapy and with a now mature brain. 
Choose your own adventure for the rest of the episode. 
Or maybe have 2 such episodes with different outcomes. 

Okay, I gotcha. :)

33 minutes ago, dttruman said:

At least Chris (I believe) is more forthcoming than Henry, when it comes to their murderous rages. Henry is more dangerous because of his talent for manipulating people. This would never happen because to be effective, they would have to show Chris and Henry interacting a lot. This would take away too much of Benson and Rollins time.

In another Law & Order episode, wasn't there a little girl about Henry's age who was suspected of killing a younger kid. I don't remember the name of the episode, just the ending where McCoy see the girl talking to another younger kid. How about matching up this girl and Henry?

Yes, Chris took responsibility for his actions and knew what a danger he was, while Henry just wanted to be free and continue his charade. A very deep contrast between the two.

Less Benson and Rollins would be good. We ought to see more time devoted to the episode's story characters than the main ones all the time. As much as I despise Warren Leight, one of the things I liked that he did during his initial run as showrunner during Seasons 13-17 were the times he gave us scenes without the main characters, bring some CI style elements to the show. Too bad he didn't incorporate that enough.

Imagine this, Chris is released from prison and is tempted to go on a killing spree of young children to relieve his childhood actions, comes across Henry and abducts him but this leads to a conflicted relationship between the two because Henry strikes Chris in a way that gives him second thoughts on killing him and sees a lot of himself in Henry and thus gives Chris better insight of how he wants his own future to be. To better develop this storyline, I'd make this a two-parter. 

I'm not familiar with the L&O episode you're referring to, but I did my research. The episode is Season 10's "Killerz" and Jennifer "Jenny" Brandt is the name of the girl. She is in fact Henry's age and murdered an eight year old boy. Yes, that would have been a nice call back too. I need to check this episode out one of these days. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. 

Edited May 31, 2021 by Devonte Huntley

[dttruman]

18 minutes ago, Devonte Huntley said:

Okay, I gotcha. :)

Yes, Chris took responsibility for his actions and knew what a danger he was, while Henry just wanted to be free and continue his charade. A very deep contrast between the two.

Less Benson and Rollins would be good. We ought to see more time devoted to the episode's story characters than the main ones all the time. As much as I despise Warren Leight, one of the things I liked that he did during his initial run as showrunner during Seasons 13-17 were the times he gave us scenes without the main characters, bring some CI style elements to the show. Too bad he didn't incorporate that enough.

Imagine this, Chris is released from prison and is tempted to go on a killing spree of young children to relieve his childhood actions, comes across Henry and abducts him but this leads to a conflicted relationship between the two because Henry strikes Chris in a way that gives him second thoughts on killing him and sees a lot of himself in Henry and thus gives Chris better insight of how he wants his own future to be. To better develop this storyline, I'd make this a two-parter. 

I'm not familiar with the L&O episode you're referring to, but I did my research. The episode is Season 10's "Killerz" and Jennifer "Jenny" Brandt is the name of the girl. She is in fact Henry's age and murdered an eight year old boy. Yes, that would have been a nice call back too. I need to check this episode out one of these days. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. 

If the writers pay attention to you and Shapeshifter they may get some good story line ideas. But then again, Hargitay and Giddish may protest adamantly against it.

[wknt3]

On 5/28/2021 at 11:45 AM, Cristofle said:

I don't think you technically CAN diagnose someone as being a psychopath until they are at least eighteen since their brains are still developing.

 

On 5/30/2021 at 7:05 PM, shapeshifter said:

I agree in principle with your point, but just want to expand upon it a bit by pointing out that studies in recent years have confirmed that the part of the brain that makes decisions does not finish developing until age 25 or 26, and, just to split another hair, psycopathy is not an officially recognized diagnosis --it's "antisocial personality disorder," but I think TV shows use the more colloquial terms of "psychopath" and "sociopath" precisely because they are not medical terms, and so using them protects the show from any law suites over, oh, I don't know, but maybe disseminating false medical advice, or something else.

 

You touch upon some good points. I want to elaborate a bit on one without getting too far into the weeds and going off topic and disagree or at least offer another POV on another. First while antisocial personality disorder cannot be diagnosed until 18 there are diagnoses for younger individuals such as conduct disorder and oppositional defiant disorder that are considered "premorbid conditions" that are always evident although not always diagnosed and treated at the time. There is also a lot of debate as to where and when to draw lines regarding rather an individual can be helped to become a productive member of society which was after all the point of the whole episode and several in the franchise before it.

As to the use of the terms sociopath and psychopath I think television writers use them for the same reasons a lot of professionals do in less formal settings. Because they convey an important difference. Does an individual have a conscience? A clear sense of right and wrong. A sociopath does whereas a psychopath doesn't. It affects strategies to detect, question and deal with them. It also matters as to how you write and portray a character as a sociopath is almost always "hot headed" while a psychopath is "cold blooded" and calculated. And rarer. So while it may lack clinical rigor there is some value. It's not about any worry over liability, but about the practical value of the differences in meaning - it says in one word what would take paragraphs otherwise.

Edited June 1, 2021 by wknt3

[Devonte Huntley]

19 hours ago, dttruman said:

If the writers pay attention to you and Shapeshifter they may get some good story line ideas. But then again, Hargitay and Giddish may protest adamantly against it.

Trust me, this franchise would be so different, especially if I was charge. For starters, you'll be seeing recurring characters a lot; story victim characters, witnesses, bystander informants (the ones who the cops typically run into working to get extra info from on a case that aren't exactly "witnesses") in different crime situations and or just in casual moments so we're not flooded with new characters all the time. Heck, if I was in charge that would be the case and there would be more crossovers with the related shows either still running or ended, updated openings (I hate the actors' pics are never updated when they ought to be), like trust me this show would be handled a lot better and consistently. I don't see why Mariska and Kelli would have a problem. It's not turning this into a man's show, but I would display more female-to-male issues as well as male-to-male ones. 

Edited June 1, 2021 by Devonte Huntley