Prophecy: The Speculation Thread

[T Summer]

59 minutes ago, LaMatadita said:

I've seen multiple people say that it was renewed for S4 back in June, but I haven't found any sources for that. (Considering what they went through to give the show a third season, and considering that things seem stable behind-the-scenes now, I could see Starz letting them have their final season, but we'll see.)

Neither have I been able to find confirmation.

 

I understand that spoilers belong on the media or book threads and I'm not sure if pure speculation or chat about future episodes is the same and needs to be kept off episode threads, but to be safe I'm going to speculate about the future behind a spoiler tag. I have not read the book.

Spoiler

If this is to be the last season  ending in Wednesday's stupid battle between the old and new gods or maybe even old gods warring amongst themselves like with Tyr and Odin went at it,  I would hate to see Laura and Shadow on opposing sides or Bilquis and Shadow (which I don't think will happen). I don't really know why they've kept Salim in the story for so long but being they did, I don't really want Laura and he to be on different sides either.

One thing I could see happening is Demeter reforming to swoop in and save a dying Odin or assist him  in some way. If not, I have no idea what that whole mess of a story line was about?

The gold coin Shadow saw  Ganesha propel through the ice... is that going to bring a dying Shadow back to life? If Laura gets wounded can Sweeney wherever he is dredge up any last bit of magic to save her? maybe through Liam in some way? Which could be one reason to have given us  so much  Laura and Sweeney time. IDK

I've wondered why Wednesday so hated Laura Moon and directed so much fire power (or Leprechaun magic) at her? to get Shadow to work for him. Couldn't he have sidelined her with a pregnancy or something? I sometimes think there's something there with her being the ultimate non believer,  which threaten his kind right out of existence. Then there was the was the "one with a powerful destiny who attracts powerful enemies" revelation in purgatory.   ...and why did Sweeney's coin(and Laura Moon's will) trump thousand year old Odin's will? If Sweeney was indebted to Odin, Odin must be the far more powerful one. Yes, he hired Sweeney to kill her, but I'll bet he also had more powers  and  more tricks in his arsenal.

They keep showing us scenes of this little round lady in Lakeside, I forget her name? but I think they're going to spend  time on that, the missing girl (who is possibly in the car on the ice as someone smarter than I am pointed out), Shadow finding Marguerite's son etc and  leave us really hanging when the battle gets underway. I will hate that if it goes that way!

We just got a few more breadcrumbs on the peacock thing... Shadow saw them out in the snow in the search for the girl, on a magazine cover, on Bilquis's hall way walls and then there were the peacock feathers (with metal claws) in Bilquis' place. No idea where they're taking that. Same with all the "you must find the other" BS the midwife said to Bilquis. Just looks like way to much to make sense of in only 2 episodes.

 

[T Summer]

At the end of s3 e9  we saw Mr World wrapping a body in a shroud saying "we commit this body to.....

 

Was anyone able to tell whose body that was?

[T Summer]

In the scene from the finale the speaker is saying Odin was lashed to (the World tree?) for 9 days and nights....

 

And it looks like Shadow is going to do the same. That's the tree Odin/Wednesday has grown from a little sprig from the looks of it!

[hnygrl]

Since this is a spoiler thread, think long con. 

Mr. World in the book is LOKI. He and Odin were working together to ensure war happened. No matter which side "wins", the God of War gets allllllllll that power from all those dead gods. 

And with chernabog there to witness odin's death and all fired up and read to fight? Oh, it's on. 

Think Shadow is gonna be tied to the world Tree? 

[T Summer]

4 minutes ago, hnygrl said:

Since this is a spoiler thread, think long con. 

Mr. World in the book is LOKI. He and Odin were working together to ensure war happened. No matter which side "wins", the God of War gets allllllllll that power from all those dead gods. 

And with chernabog there to witness odin's death and all fired up and read to fight? Oh, it's on. 

Think Shadow is gonna be tied to the world Tree? 

IDK . On the preview for the next episode they're talking about spending 9 days and nights tied to the World Tree "as Odin once did", so IDK if that is involved in becoming a full-fledged God? I'm ffwding to the spot to listen again but it sounds like Mr. World's voice saying it!

 

I think they took the damned preview off the on demand episode! It just goes black after the episode

[hnygrl]

Loki is a shape shifter. Think about that. How many times has world shifted? 

And part of the deal of Shadow working for Wednesday is that he do that when Wednesday dies (tied to the world Tree) 

[T Summer]

14 minutes ago, hnygrl said:

Loki is a shape shifter. Think about that. How many times has world shifted? 

And part of the deal of Shadow working for Wednesday is that he do that when Wednesday dies (tied to the world Tree) 

I haven't yet figured out if being tied to the World Tree is a vigil for the dead, or an empowering thing for a living God/God in the making?

 

Just don't tell me it's a vigil and it's going to be a Wednesday shaped Mr. World on the tree providing a deflection and Wednesday lives... because I'm not trying to hear that! I kindof HATE him!

[hnygrl]

Vigil. And if it stays true to the book? He dead. But He’s a god So....dead...is relative.

[T Summer]

46 minutes ago, hnygrl said:

Vigil. And if it stays true to the book? He dead. But He’s a god So....dead...is relative.

I haven't read the book and have avoided book spoilers and threads, so I'm in the dark.

 

Hm, so Odin/Wednesday   grew the tree for his own vigil?

 

Have you got any hints about all that midwife to Bilquis   "you've got to find the other" "only then can he lead the people"  mess?

 

Also I'm wondering  about Bilquis saying to Shadow her fortune is very much tied to his? I haven't thought Shadow (if indeed he's becoming a God?) would need a female counterpart any more than Odin did. ...but if he did, Bilquis!

 

[hnygrl]

All that stuff is brand new, so I’m clueless too. 

[T Summer]

6 minutes ago, hnygrl said:

All that stuff is brand new, so I’m clueless too. 

thanks 😉

[WatchrTina]

On 3/15/2021 at 2:16 AM, T Summer said:

Have you got any hints about all that midwife to Bilquis   "you've got to find the other" "only then can he lead the people"  mess?

I've read the book and I have NO idea what this means.  That's kind of fun for me but it also makes me a bit fearful.  I LIKE this book.  Do not wreck this book with off-book twists!  (Then again, I just may have a lousy memory.)

[LaMatadita]

Here's a big piece of speculation: I think Laura is going to be revealed to be Hel, Loki's daughter and a goddess of the underworld. She heard a peculiar song ("Baldr's Requiem," I think it was?) coming from her father's hotel room in the purgatory home movie of the event that screwed her up for life, and then Mr. World, who is widely believed to be Loki, hummed the same song in this episode. Combine that will all of the "Laura is Shadow's soulmate" stuff, and it seems unlikely that the writers were able to resist the symmetry of her being Loki's daughter and both father's being willing to sacrifice their children.

All of the evidence that points to this is from the current season, too, so I think it's definitely a retcon because they didn't know how to give Laura a future as a human. I'm hoping for Laura to reject a lot of this stuff, outside of helping Shadow, but my hope is a tiny sliver.

(I know Gaiman has said that with American Gods, he really just wanted to tell an origin story about a god, and I think this stuff with Laura and Shadow being soulmates with a sort of mystical duality is him not really understanding that what works in mythology is not a satisfying or earned ending for a TV show. Is it neat and tidy? Sure. Is it something emotionally satisfying that makes sense for the Laura and Shadow we've known over the past 3 seasons? Not really, IMO.)

Edited March 23, 2021 by LaMatadita
typos

[T Summer]

On 3/22/2021 at 7:50 PM, LaMatadita said:

Here's a big piece of speculation: I think Laura is going to be revealed to be Hel, Loki's daughter and a goddess of the underworld. She heard a peculiar song ("Baldr's Requiem," I think it was?) coming from her father's hotel room in the purgatory home movie of the event that screwed her up for life, and then Mr. World, who is widely believed to be Loki, hummed the same song in this episode. Combine that will all of the "Laura is Shadow's soulmate" stuff, and it seems unlikely that the writers were able to resist the symmetry of her being Loki's daughter and both father's being willing to sacrifice their children.

All of the evidence that points to this is from the current season, too, so I think it's definitely a retcon because they didn't know how to give Laura a future as a human. I'm hoping for Laura to reject a lot of this stuff, outside of helping Shadow, but my hope is a tiny sliver.

(I know Gaiman has said that with American Gods, he really just wanted to tell an origin story about a god, and I think this stuff with Laura and Shadow being soulmates with a sort of mystical duality is him not really understanding that what works in mythology is not a satisfying or earned ending for a TV show. Is it neat and tidy? Sure. Is it something emotionally satisfying that makes sense for the Laura and Shadow we've known over the past 3 seasons? Not really, IMO.)

Question: If Laura turns out to be Loki's daughter Hel  and a Goddess... how would it have been possible for Mad Sweeney (who we've been told was a Leprechaun and that he had "God energy"... but not that he was  an actual God) to have killed her by causing her accident? Same with the Leprechaun's coin reanimating her and a Loa's potion bringing her back to life. Wouldn't a Goddess  have more power than either of these beings?

[LaMatadita]

7 hours ago, T Summer said:

Question: If Laura turns out to be Loki's daughter Hel  and a Goddess... how would it have been possible for Mad Sweeney (who we've been told was a Leprechaun and that he had "God energy"... but not that he was  an actual God) to have killed her by causing her accident?

Shadow and Laura are presumably demigods and not full-blown gods yet, and this show has killed off plenty of full-blown gods and mythical beings: one of the Zorya's, Sweeney, Tyr, Johan, even Wednesday, and Shadow just died on the tree himself. Shadow also never displayed any overt powers in his life until Wednesdsy taught him how to make it snow, and no one has ever really tried to show Laura how to do anything like that.

I think it definitely seems like a new idea for Gaiman and the writers rather than something that was planned all along, but I don't think there's anything in previous seasons that negates the theory. It might not turn out to be the case, but her hearing the same song coming from her father's hotel room as a child that Mr. World hummed in the finale seems like a pretty darn big clue, and combined with her multiple deaths and resurrections, the fact that Hel is Loki's daughter in the mythology, and the idea of her and Shadow as some sort of divine duality, it seems to add up.

It's not a theory I'm especially attached to, though, because I don't care for the way they're trying to give the story such a neat and tidy mythological ending rather than something more messy and human. They wrecked my emotional investment with the final 3 episodes this season, so I doubt I'll even watch S4 if it happens.

Edited March 24, 2021 by LaMatadita

[T Summer]

1 hour ago, LaMatadita said:

Shadow and Laura are presumably demigods and not full-blown gods yet, and this show has killed off plenty of full-blown gods and mythical beings: one of the Zorya's, Sweeney, Tyr, Johan, even Wednesday, and Shadow just died on the tree himself. Shadow also never displayed any overt powers in his life until Wednesdsy taught him how to make it snow, and no one has ever really tried to show Laura how to do anything like that.

I think it definitely seems like a new idea for Gaiman and the writers rather than something that was planned all along, but I don't think there's anything in previous seasons that negates the theory. It might not turn out to be the case, but her hearing the same song coming from her father's hotel room as a child that Mr. World hummed in the finale seems like a pretty darn big clue, and combined with her multiple deaths and resurrections, the fact that Hel is Loki's daughter in the mythology, and the idea of her and Shadow as some sort of divine duality, it seems to add up.

It's not a theory I'm especially attached to, though, because I don't care for the way they're trying to give the story such a neat and tidy mythological ending rather than something more messy and human. They wrecked my emotional investment with the final 3 episodes this season, so I doubt I'll even watch S4 if it happens.

If I do watch s4 (if it happens), it will be  because I find Bilquis enchanting and I'm interested in seeing what happens to Laura Moon. The idea of them teaming up has always appealed to me since they had that convo in s2 "you seem pretty powerful, do you want to help me?"

It won't be because I'm wishing for some kind of fairy tale ending for 'soulmates' Shadow and Laura.  As you've said it hasn't been written that way, it hasn't been heading that way  and even though I feel she was motivated by her love for Shadow  to come back from the dead and protect him from Wednesday, clearly she doesn't love him like a soulmate or husband anymore if she's wishing him his white picket fenced house  and wife and kids. After saying "that's how he acts when he's in love" to Marguerite... that's twice she's basically handing him off to the next woman.

I didn't mean to say the story might not be headed that way with World being Loki and Laura being his daughter... I was just asking because I have zero knowledge of Norse mythology,  if she's a Goddess could seemingly lesser beings kill her?

Most of the time I'm irked that I'm spending so much  time  watching a series where I so dislike and don't care about the principals. I found Shadow Moon pretty remote and unknowable in s1+2. OK, one can write that off as him being stunned by what he's seeing now that this new world of Gods and a wife back from the dead has revealed itself to him. Now in s3 they've  shown us Shadow as this boy scout going around doing good deeds. I was starting to buy into that, but then I just got so frustrated because he keeps doing stupid thing after stupid thing after stupid thing. Kind of odd for someone we met as a con man, which calls for being the exact opposite of oblivious and obtuse. ...and of course I've stated I can't stand Wednesday or the actor who plays him. No need to flog that dead horse. The Technical  Gods bore me. Characters I've always wanted to see more of included Mad Sweeney, Anubis, and Samedi and Brigit.

I don't usually read the reddit or listen to / read  A.G. convos  anywhere else (except for recently fishing around for info about whether a s4 has been approved), but one time I watched a You Tube video titled something like A.G. the mythology explained and that dude posited that Shadow's cell mate in jail was Loki???? I didn't see or hear anything to suggest that in their brief convos, but like I said I have little familiarity with Norse mythology. I remember thinking it seemed like  a major  character to burn up on someone who had 2 lines in s1.

 

[Normades]

9 hours ago, T Summer said:

A.G. the mythology explained and that dude posited that Shadow's cell mate in jail was Loki???? I didn't see or hear anything to suggest that in their brief convos, but like I said I have little familiarity with Norse mythology. I remember thinking it seemed like  a major  character to burn up on someone who had 2 lines in s1.

Spoiler

In the book, Shadow's cellmate is Low Key Lyesmith and yes, he is indeed Loki (Low Key).  

 

 

[T Summer]

13 minutes ago, Normades said:

  Hide contents

In the book, Shadow's cellmate is Low Key Lyesmith and yes, he is indeed Loki (Low Key).  

 

 

Ah, I missed that part... hearing his name. Thanks!

[LaMatadita]

Interestingly, my mom has been catching up on the show and just finished the season last night, and she independently came up with the same theory I've seen floating around about Liam Doyle coming back from Sweeney's hoard with a little bit of Sweeney in him. She's normally not much of a theory crafter, either, so I have to wonder if Eglee and Gaiman were really so clueless as to just hand off all the Sweeney stuff to a new leprechaun and think that was going to satisfy fans. It seems likely that Doyle will reappear in S4 since Laura made a point of mentioning him in the finale, and if they only need him to come back so Laura can get the coin back, then that could have been accomplished in 3x09, but instead they left it with him disappearing into Sweeney's hoard again. (If this theory is correct, I'm really curious where they're going with it, because expecting a completely different actor to be or become Sweeney is a pretty tall order. Would this mean it's still more of a love triangle than we think, or would it just be about finally letting her make things right with Sweeney?) 

 

10 hours ago, T Summer said:

I was just asking because I have zero knowledge of Norse mythology,  if she's a Goddess could seemingly lesser beings kill her?

I think the idea is that if she is Loki's daughter, then she is a potential god, but she hasn't gotten her "power up" to become a full-blown god. Same for Shadow. They're basically just human with a little inherited god energy (and Shadow knows he has powers--he can make it snow--but Laura doesn't). I'm also not sure if Laura was actually created intentionally to play a role in all this, or if she's more of an accident that took Wednesday and World by surprise, but they figured out how to take advantage of her. Do they know she's Shadow's supposed soulmate or not?

10 hours ago, T Summer said:

It won't be because I'm wishing for some kind of fairy tale ending for 'soulmates' Shadow and Laura.  As you've said it hasn't been written that way, it hasn't been heading that way

Yeah, that's my biggest issue with it. I never felt like they were presented as an ongoing love story, but more as two incompatible people who had gotten tangled up in each other's lives and couldn't get untangled. They've barely even shared screentime on the show, so as a viewer, I have zero emotional investment in seeing Laura eternally tied to Shadow as his soulmate, especially after what she said to Liam Doyle in the previous episode about wanting to be free from the chains of destiny. I also feel like it diminishes Laura's arc across the series, like it turns out it wasn’t about her developing into a healthier person and breaking free of divine manipulation, it was about her finally becoming someone who can love Shadow, because he’s the main character. Meh.

At the same time, and this is where some speculation comes in, I can't figure out if they're playing checkers or chess with this soulmates reveal. That seems to be THE potential endgame of the show now, Shadow and Laura becoming gods and ruling over America together, but to reveal that at the beginning of the S3 finale when there's still a full episode and full SEASON to go (whether they get to film it or not) seems a little anticlimactic. Did they reveal this endgame goal now because they thought viewers would actually emotionally invest in the idea, then see the two of them fight and see Shadow die and wonder how on earth they're going to get there, which they will show us in S4? (This would be checkers, IMO.) Or did they reveal it knowing that many viewers would just accept it as a given because it was revealed by a god having a vision, but then it's not actually going to turn out that way because Laura is sick of being dragged around by her destiny and no one asked her? (This would be chess.)

10 hours ago, T Summer said:

Now in s3 they've  shown us Shadow as this boy scout going around doing good deeds.

I think they were trying to show us that what has always seemed like him just being directionless and clueless was really him buying into what Wednesday was selling and wanting to be important and powerful. He was trying to have his cake and eat it, too, by insisting he was honorable and wouldn't do anything shady while simultaneously assisting the man that he knew had his wife killed (among other things) because some part of him thought that maybe he'd get something worthwhile out of it without actually having to get his hands dirty. He bought into the idea that he was Wednesday's successor SO quickly in the finale and just started acting like a cocky ass who wouldn't listen to anyone who told him he was being an idiot. I thought it was interesting to finally see Shadow knocked down a peg and given a little more psychological complexity, but at the same time, they've failed to give him any significant character development until now (the end of the 3rd season!), so my investment in him as a character is still extremely low.

Edited March 24, 2021 by LaMatadita

[T Summer]

11 hours ago, LaMatadita said:

they've failed to give him any significant character development until now (the end of the 3rd season!), so my investment in him as a character is still extremely low.

This exactly. I often wonder if Shadow wasn't as pleasing to the eye as most contributors here have indicated, would they find him as likeable and root for him to the extent they do? They really didn't give him any personality  in s1+2 (IMO), if it was an attempt to show him stunned and dismayed by his new world, it missed the mark for me. They  showed us he was a minor con man in attempting to recruit Laura to rob the casino and again in the store  where Sam BlackCrow entered the gas / convenience store and quickly surmised he was conning the saleswoman out of twenty bucks. People who live by their wits doing that kind of thing could never  ever be as  clueless about human nature as Shadow has proven to be.

 

Not only did Wednesday have Sweeney kill his wife,  him going to jail was probably all part of it. Shadow  has been able to observe the usurious relationships Wednesday has had with The Jinn, Mad Sweeney and then as I've stated before... the most recent friend he called in a favor from was a literal child Killer! Wednesday  left Laura in another dimension and reneged on his end of their deal in s2 e4. He went to his fellow God Vulcan to have him forge his spear and then cut his head off and sent it tumbling into a vat of molten metal!  and did he forget Wednesday's rather unceremonious dismissal of him after the battle with Tyr?  Nobody's this dumb! In the finale Laura warned him, Cordelia warned him and Ibis warned him. Plus he's fresh off  having done  something incredibly stupid, getting in a car with Tyr and becoming a hostage. SMH.

Funny, when they showed Shadow and Laura's images morphing into one another I never had thoughts of them ending up as each other's soulmates, possibly  ruling America together.  Though I  thought Laura 's love for Shadow and her will to save him from Wednesday provided the impetus for her to go back among the living(with Mad Sweeney's magic), she seems to be completely over wanting him as a romantic partner  now and vice versa. Unfortunately she wasn't quite  there when Mad Sweeney was alive and in her life. I  would be shocked if the writers put Shadow and Laura  back together romantically. As far as Liam Doyle emerging from Sweeney's hoard with a bit of Sweeney in him? That's pretty hard to imagine with that particular actor playing the part, but we'll see.

 

 

 

[Morrigan2575]

On 3/22/2021 at 7:50 PM, LaMatadita said:

Mr. World, who is widely believed to be Loki

Damn, here I thought I was all clever. I just saw the clip of Me World saying he was tricky and, was like OMG is he Loki?! Meanwhile everyone else is way ahead of me.

[Notwisconsin]

Well, maybe someday....a movie or something.

[Morrigan2575]

3 hours ago, Notwisconsin said:

Well, maybe someday....a movie or something.

Guess it's time to read the book

[T Summer]

I just posted this interview with Ricky Whittle about s3+s4 on the media thread. Apparently he still thought there would be a s4 very recently. The 1st commenter had something  to say about Shadow's "other" Can't say I understand it but here it is below.

John I. posted:

"They've deviated from the book...Shadow Moon's "other half" is his mother...the goddess Libertas. Baldr's light always shines.....Shadow's does not...but the light of liberty will always shine on those that seek it. That's why Laura sees him...she was seeking him...but mainly to be free."