S04.E09: Irresponsible Salad Bar Practices

[statsgirl]

The fact that African-Americans are given fewer pain killers is shocking and should be better known.  (First Nations are  also treated very badly by the medical establishment.)

The problem for me is that Claire saw a patient who was high, smelled of pot, had a full vial of pills and a BMI over 35. If Zara was anyone else, if she weren't African American, chances were she would have made the same call because how could she have known that Zara had a rare medical condition?

That's not racism, that's seeing horses and not zebras.

7 hours ago, kicotan said:

Recently, someone I know disclosed to me that they have been “microdosing” psilocybin mushrooms daily for several months.  I knew that their mood had improved and seemed to be doing better but I was speechless at the revelation.  My only experience with psychedelics was decades ago and most definitely not as a daily therapy.  I never would have guessed.

The current research on hallucinogens like LSD and MDMA for treating psychiatric disorders is very promising and safer than many current psychiatric medications. The old "Just Say No" campaign that stopped research into these drugs hurt a lot of people.

[KaveDweller]

20 hours ago, Driad said:

Shaun was, what, 12? when he met Glassman.  I wonder what happened between then and college.

I would like more about that too. We know Shaun was in foster care, but he clearly kept some kind of relationship with Glassman. Glassman came back to California at some point, so I am not really clear on how it happened.

18 hours ago, bros402 said:

Glassman's the president of the hospital and Shaun is just a resident - I imagine he could make Shaun seek counseling.

The hospital could make him yes, but as I said, something like that would typically come from Shaun's direct supervisor.  The president of the hospital wouldn't just go around demanding residents do whatever pops in his had.

I was talking about Glassman in his role as Shaun's friend/parental figure. 

[bros402]

22 hours ago, PinkRibbons said:

The problem with Shaun is that he asks inappropriate questions in a genuine bid to understand the situation around him. Some people actually seem fine with answering his questions and I imagine are relieved to have someone ask outright so they can explain as opposed to everyone dancing around a subject.

I actually do agree on Shaun needing serious training on which subjects to avoid, but I wonder if there's a program anywhere that can cover all possible questions he could have, not knowing where they will fall on the offensive meter. And it's not like he can or should stop asking questions. None of us should stop asking questions or we'll never learn about the world. The problem is that Shaun can't utilize tact.

Maybe they should just train him to say before any question not directly related to his medical training "I have been told that I have a tendency to ask questions that are inappropriate. I ask that you regard them as the genuine curiosity they are without assuming any judgement behind them. I apologize if I offend you, it is not intentional, and I understand if you don't wish to answer."

Of course that is a hell of a long disclaimer to use every time you're curious...

The thing is, people with autism aren't really like Shaun.

We have some filters. We know to hold some things until later. He could just write down nonessential questions until later, ask the other members of the team, then ask the patient if it is considered approrpriate.

5 hours ago, KaveDweller said:

I would like more about that too. We know Shaun was in foster care, but he clearly kept some kind of relationship with Glassman. Glassman came back to California at some point, so I am not really clear on how it happened.

The hospital could make him yes, but as I said, something like that would typically come from Shaun's direct supervisor.  The president of the hospital wouldn't just go around demanding residents do whatever pops in his had.

I was talking about Glassman in his role as Shaun's friend/parental figure. 

Yeah, it seems like after Glassman tried to get him to do it in Season 1 he just dropped it completely, which was just dumb of him

[Power-Aspie]

8 hours ago, bros402 said:

The thing is, people with autism aren't really like Shaun.

It is always puzzling that even autistic individuals tend to claim to know how all on the wide spectrum would behave. Because there are only white swans in my pond, there can’t exist any black swans in other ponds, can they?

Well, I’m also on the spectrum and I have said unapproiate things at the wrong time quite frequently in working environments… That just happens sometimes when I'm in my "autistic flow"... 😇

So, the consensus of this thread seems that Shaun needs to stop asking questions about the neurotypical world because they are perceived as inappropriate.

In this episode, Claire concluded that racism made her try to make white people comfortable with her.

When neurotypical people require autistic Shaun to adapt to neurotypical behavior to make them comfortable, why isn’t this called ableism?

Just asking for the logic behind making a difference between being born with a specific skin color and being born with a certain brain structure.

Also, because several studies have shown that autistic individuals who camouflage their autistic characteristics also tend to report higher rates of anxiety and depression. One study found that camouflaging is associated with higher rates of suicidality.

Besides that, camouflaging autism is exhausting, potentially leading to autistic burnout; and can erode a person’s sense of identity.

So, am I as autistic individual required to risk my health to make you neurotypicals more comfortable?

[statsgirl]

It's worst with patients but Shaun is also inappropriate with other hospital staff.  Things like doing a survey about shower sex. That's something that Glassman as his mentor should have dealt with.

Shaun is smart enough that he can be given a list of topics that he should discuss only with people who are close to him: religion and sex being foremost.  It's no longer cute when he asks strangers deeply personal questions without finding out from them if it's okay first.

[bros402]

15 hours ago, Power-Aspie said:

It is always puzzling that even autistic individuals tend to claim to know how all on the wide spectrum would behave. Because there are only white swans in my pond, there can’t exist any black swans in other ponds, can they?

Well, I’m also on the spectrum and I have said unapproiate things at the wrong time quite frequently in working environments… That just happens sometimes when I'm in my "autistic flow"... 😇

So, the consensus of this thread seems that Shaun needs to stop asking questions about the neurotypical world because they are perceived as inappropriate.

In this episode, Claire concluded that racism made her try to make white people comfortable with her.

When neurotypical people require autistic Shaun to adapt to neurotypical behavior to make them comfortable, why isn’t this called ableism?

Just asking for the logic behind making a difference between being born with a specific skin color and being born with a certain brain structure.

Also, because several studies have shown that autistic individuals who camouflage their autistic characteristics also tend to report higher rates of anxiety and depression. One study found that camouflaging is associated with higher rates of suicidality.

Besides that, camouflaging autism is exhausting, potentially leading to autistic burnout; and can erode a person’s sense of identity.

So, am I as autistic individual required to risk my health to make you neurotypicals more comfortable?

That is why I said "aren't really" - leaving some room for the cases that are. They like to portray Shaun as high functioning, when with all of the behaviors he has demonstrated throughout the series, he really isn't.

Camouflaging my autism does get exhausting, it's mostly a matter of figuring out which to hide.

There's a difference between something coming out during the flow of things, versus Shaun saying something he should have known was offensive - given the fact that trans people are a bigger part of the media landscape, even if he just watches the Weather Channel - he would've come across it in a journal article.

[KaveDweller]

On 2/19/2021 at 10:31 AM, Power-Aspie said:

When neurotypical people require autistic Shaun to adapt to neurotypical behavior to make them comfortable, why isn’t this called ableism?

Just asking for the logic behind making a difference between being born with a specific skin color and being born with a certain brain structure.

Also, because several studies have shown that autistic individuals who camouflage their autistic characteristics also tend to report higher rates of anxiety and depression. One study found that camouflaging is associated with higher rates of suicidality.

Besides that, camouflaging autism is exhausting, potentially leading to autistic burnout; and can erode a person’s sense of identity.

So, am I as autistic individual required to risk my health to make you neurotypicals more comfortable?

I don't think anyone should have to camouflage autism, or anything else about themselves.

But if Shaun wants to be a doctor who interacts with patients, I think that it is important that he finds a way to not constantly offend those patients with questions about their sexual lives/sexual identities. It would be like if he was a lawyer, he'd need to find a way to not offend judges and jury members. It is Shaun's choice to be a doctor.

I think the difference between that and racism, is that a person being black doesn't really have an impact on anyone around them. But how Shaun talks to other people certainly does impact them.

[bros402]

8 hours ago, KaveDweller said:

I don't think anyone should have to camouflage autism, or anything else about themselves.

But if Shaun wants to be a doctor who interacts with patients, I think that it is important that he finds a way to not constantly offend those patients with questions about their sexual lives/sexual identities. It would be like if he was a lawyer, he'd need to find a way to not offend judges and jury members. It is Shaun's choice to be a doctor.

I think the difference between that and racism, is that a person being black doesn't really have an impact on anyone around them. But how Shaun talks to other people certainly does impact them.

Sometimes camouflaging autism is necessary in order to not be viewed as totally out of our gourds.

It's not completely hiding it, it's hiding some of the more visible aspects of it when they want to come out, so it can be expressed in a less visible place.

[Power-Aspie]

On 2/20/2021 at 7:45 AM, bros402 said:

They like to portray Shaun as high functioning, when with all of the behaviors he has demonstrated throughout the series, he really isn't.

The term “high functioning autism” is only another way to say that the individual’s IQ is 70 or above, because that is where the cut-off for intellectual disability is made on the IQ scale.

Though, IQ alone was found to be a poor predictor of functional abilities within the autistic spectrum.

9 hours ago, KaveDweller said:

I think the difference between that and racism, is that a person being black doesn't really have an impact on anyone around them. But how Shaun talks to other people certainly does impact them.

Your answer relies heavily on your personal perception of the matters at hand.

Obviously, you are not a racist, thus you don’t find black people to be offensive. But the truth is (even as we agree that they are wrong in doing so)… racists perceive PoC a s being offensive.

So, while you are ok with PoC, you perceive personal questions as being offensive. And now it gets really weird: in my autistic perception, questions about my sex life are not different to questions about my taste in beverages…

What is perceived as offensive is not nature’s law but a social convention – and thus subject to negotiation and change. Just as society’s take on race has changed in the last 200 years.

[statsgirl]

7 hours ago, Power-Aspie said:

So while you are ok with PoC, you perceive personal questions as being offensive. And now it gets really weird: in my autistic perception, questions about my sex life are not different to questions about my taste in beverages…

In society, many things are a negotiation between the individual and those around them. (English really needs gender neutral pronouns.)  Some are easy (I hate the pinging at traffic lights because I'm sensitive to the sound vut I know that it is important for those who can't see the lights.) With others, it's less apparent.  Many immigrants changed their names when they came to North America like Israel Beilin to Irving Berlin. If I prefer walk around with no clothes on, I can only do it in very specific places and not at my workplace. Many countries are negotiating between conservative religious practices and the society at large.

So while for Shaun there may be no difference between questions about sex life and beverages, there are for the people around him. There are compromises everywhere and for Shaun it is that he can ask certain people these questions but not strangers and certainly not patients.  There is a power differential between doctor and patient and for the same reason that doctors are not allowed to sleep with patients, Shaun needs to learn that he can't ask those questions: patients need to be protected.

[KaveDweller]

20 hours ago, Power-Aspie said:

Your answer relies heavily on your personal perception of the matters at hand.

Obviously, you are not a racist, thus you don’t find black people to be offensive. But the truth is (even as we agree that they are wrong in doing so)… racists perceive PoC a s being offensive.

So, while you are ok with PoC, you perceive personal questions as being offensive. And now it gets really weird: in my autistic perception, questions about my sex life are not different to questions about my taste in beverages…

What is perceived as offensive is not nature’s law but a social convention – and thus subject to negotiation and change. Just as society’s take on race has changed in the last 200 years.

That is true, and I guess I wasn't thinking of it like that. Society could (in theory) adapt and then Shaun's questions would no longer be a problem for anyone. I think most of his co-workers have sort of reached the point where they are not bothered by Shaun's overly personal questions. It is the patients who don't know him who we are seeing having issues. Or that new resident that said he didn't want to work at their hospital.

But while I get that Shaun may not perceive these types of questions as being offensive, he does seem capable of learning that other people do. And it doesn't seem like he is asking these questions because he can't help himself. So I would think if he was told "don't ask patients their sex life if it doesn't directly impact the treatment" he would be able to follow that instruction, even if he didn't understand why that was offensive. But I apologize if I'm missing something about his autism that makes that not true.

 

[bros402]

23 hours ago, Power-Aspie said:

The term “high functioning autism” is only another way to say that the individual’s IQ is 70 or above, because that is where the cut-off for intellectual disability is made on the IQ scale.

True - although the definitely for high functioning autism is pretty fluid, Shaun definitely would not pass the bar for what used to be Aspergers - and the portrayal of Shaun probably makes the general public think "oh so that is what autism is like!"

Like if we were to use the levels that some places use when identifying autism now, i'd say Shaun was more of a "requiring substantial support" on the line of very substantial support, when they want a "requiring support"

Edited February 22, 2021 by bros402

[possibilities]

There are actually very concrete practical reasons why certain behaviors are not acceptable in the workplace, or in the role of doctor. I think it's important to make a distinction between things that have legitimate reasons vs things that are just a matter of individual preferences.

For instance, drunk while driving a bus is not a mere social taboo but an actual hazard to others. On the other hand, being Black while driving a bus is not an actual hazard, and the person who objects to a Black bus driver is bringing the discomfort on themselves and not actually having their life endangered as they would be if the driver were drunk.

Where that line is, for something like topics of discussion that are NOT MEDICALLY RELEVANT, is something that can be debated and may vary from person to person or situation to situation, but in general I think that a doctor should not use their patient to satisfy personal curiosity and shouldn't ask any questions that are not directly medically relevant. I've met plenty of rude neurotypicals, so framing this as an autism issue I think is somewhat of a red herring, to be honest.

 

[methodwriter85]

It kind of bugged me that this episode never addressed Claire's privilege as a light-skinned woman with good hair and light eyes. It's like they wanted to have her represent the experience of all black women while at the same time ignoring the colorism hierarchy that favors Claire. 

[greyflannel]

So, the only reason that Claire isn't loud and obnoxious is that she works so hard to make white people comfortable?? 

Edited April 1, 2021 by greyflannel