Lady Whistledown: Friend or Foe

[RachelKM]

On 5/26/2022 at 11:21 PM, andromeda331 said:

I really have a hard time seeing Penelope as Lady Whistledown. I really do like her. It's also hard for me to see the Penelope who's nice, didn't know where babies come from and treated like crap by her family is writing the pamplet outing people's secrets and has the Queen hunting her down.

I completely agree.  But my thoughts on it will have to be taken to the book thread.

[wanderingstar]

On 5/27/2022 at 2:21 AM, andromeda331 said:

I really have a hard time seeing Penelope as Lady Whistledown. I really do like her.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who likes Penelope. And I agree - it's hard to square the character we see with the snarky narrator. But I guess that's where she expresses that part of her personality. LW papers does seem to be an outlet for her.

[LadyChaos]

On 6/8/2022 at 5:43 PM, Gillian Rosh said:

I'm glad I'm not the only one who likes Penelope. And I agree - it's hard to square the character we see with the snarky narrator. But I guess that's where she expresses that part of her personality. LW papers does seem to be an outlet for her.

I think Pen is a good person, and I like her too....I think the problem comes from that I think initially she started LW as a harmless way to vent her frustrations and feel like she had a voice....until the issue with the guy that was threatening Daphne (don't remember his name) she didn't really report anything other then what people were wearing and the impressions people gave to the ton. She was really only reporting what others were already saying in a more entertaining way, and she didn't leave herself out of it.....Although we don't see it, I feel like Eloise would've told her that this guy was threatening her family, and Pen saw an opportunity to expose him for the trash he was and save her friends family. After that it kind of shifted and got out of control.....BUT at the end of the day Pen/LW is not responsible for other peoples actions, she is only responsible for exposing them. And people shouldn't blame her for what happened to them when their actions were exposed. Marina and Eloise are still responsible for what they were doing. 

I also think that Pen feels like she has little control over her life and that she lacks a voice in her real life and it occasionally causes her to lash out. With Marina, she didn't expose her until she felt backed into a corner and Marina was cruel to her. With writing about Eloise, she hadn't considered writing something bad about Eloise until Delacriox suggested it, even then she wasn't going to do it until Eloise said she was going to pretend to LW which was only a temporary solution (plus I think Penelope was afraid of losing control of the one thing she felt was hers), and she wasn't cruel to Eloise when Eloise was yelling at her....until Eloise called her a coward and an insipid wallflower (something Eloise knew would hurt her)...then she was cruel.

Being cruel is never Penelope's first instinct. But she does lack some emotional control and is prone too lashing out.

We all gossip, even we say we don't gossip...we still gossip and talk about other people when we're with friends. Most people ignored Pen or bullied her and the only reason Penelope knew 90% of what she reported is because people were already talking about it, in front of her. And everyone had no problem devouring these scandal sheets because they all love gossip. Even the Bridgertons.

[RachelKM]

Brought over from the S03.E04 Episode thread since this has more to do with Marina and her secret being outed:

  

On 6/14/2024 at 9:46 AM, Chicago Redshirt said:

2. Colin got a bunch of perks out of the Marina lie: engagement to the hottest deb of the season with whom he was completely smitten. 

On 6/14/2024 at 9:46 AM, Chicago Redshirt said:

3. Learning the truth would have changed less in the case of Marina vs LW.  IMO Colin would 100 percent have married Marina had she told him the truth upfront; I believe he explicitly said as much.

I completely disagree with these two points.  Yes Colin was smitten and he said  he would have married him if she told the truth (an easy thing to say when it's only theoretical).  But this ignores two very large points.

1) Colin believed Marina loved him.  She did not.  She thought he was nice. But it wasn't even clear she respected him.  Both of these facts became exceedingly clear in Season 2 when Colin visited her and he still cared and seemed under the impression that it would matter to Marina and she basically rolled her eyes at him. Learning that what you thought was a love match was merely a marriage of convenience and that you are merely a warm body with a name to give to a woman's children is a hugely hurtful thing to learn.

2) The fact that she DID lie to him and had no intention of letting him learn the truth until he was trapped would have also affected their relationship.  

So the notion that it wasn't an extremely impactful lie, one that when to the core of who they would be together, is incomprehensible to me. 

On 6/14/2024 at 9:46 AM, Chicago Redshirt said:

4. A lie coming from a person he just met with no deeper connection beyond "he's got a pleasant personality and isn't half-bad to look at, plus some change in his pocket" should hit less hard than a lie from someone who he has known for years, is very close to, and who claims to love him with the fires of true love.

This seems to contradict the earlier statement of Colin being smitten.  He believed himself in love with Marina and she was lying about loving him.  Why wouldn't that be a bigger deal than a lie that had absolutely nothing to do with Colin? Colin and Pen were friends, sure. But I actually think, as friends, Eloise had more grounds to be upset about the LW secrets because of how often Pen discussed LW and how many times Pen lied to her as a result.

Once Colin and Pen became engaged, I agree that he became entitled to know. But up until then, it had nothing to do with him. She wasn't using information she learned through their friendship. So it's not like he had some specific injury to claim.  Being friends does not entitle someone to all their secrets. 

On 6/14/2024 at 9:46 AM, Chicago Redshirt said:

5. The rationale behind the Marina's lie was due to desperation to avoid a situation largely out of her control that could have left her and her child homeless and poverty-stricken.

The desperation made her lies more understandable. But she had other options.   For instance, the old lord who just wanted an heir and would overlook the unlikeliness of the timing of the pregnancy. Was he old?  Yes.  But, there was no indication he would have been cruel. Or she could have been honest with Colin and allowed him to make an informed choice instead of lying to him and tricking him into thinking he would be in a love match.

I say none of this to justify Pen's actions.  I'm just not as sympathetic to Marina. Also, re-watching season 1, Marina was a petulant brat prior Portia leaning she was pregnant.  Marina thought herself superior to Portia and all her machinations because she, Marina, fell IN LOVE and found the Ton's maneuverings distasteful, until she needed to do so herself. 

Marina was a comfortable* country deb who fell for a local wealthy first son and thought a season was an insult to that.  But, for all her faults, Portia was mostly trying to look out for her daughters within the strictures of their society.  

*In addition to the 4 figure dowry, she was also in the Featherington home because Lord Featherington owe her father money.

Edited June 16 by RachelKM

[Roseanna]

7 hours ago, RachelKM said:

1) Colin believed Marina loved him.  She did not.  She thought he was nice. But it wasn't even clear she respected him.  Both of these facts became exceedingly clear in Season 2 when Colin visited her and he still cared and seemed under the impression that it would matter to Marina and she basically rolled her eyes at him. Learning that what you thought was a love match was merely a marriage of convenience and that you are merely a warm body with a name to give to a woman's children is a hugely hurtful thing to learn.

I agree that Marina wasn't in love with Colin. But I think she either cared for him in some way or at least wanted to atone what she had done to him, and that's why she behaved like she did when he visited her.  

If she had been a wholly bad person who had enjoyed to keep other people in her power, she would pretended she had loved him and even that she loved him still, but by denying any feelings for him she made her best to set him free. 

[Roseanna]

7 hours ago, RachelKM said:

Why wouldn't that be a bigger deal than a lie that had absolutely nothing to do with Colin? Colin and Pen were friends, sure. But I actually think, as friends, Eloise had more grounds to be upset about the LW secrets because of how often Pen discussed LW and how many times Pen lied to her as a result.

Once Colin and Pen became engaged, I agree that he became entitled to know. But up until then, it had nothing to do with him. She wasn't using information she learned through their friendship. So it's not like he had some specific injury to claim.  Being friends does not entitle someone to all their secrets. 

Generally, I don't think it's ok to dismiss somebody's bad behavior if he/she does bad things only to others. 

But Pen's lie had much to do with Colin. She had written about his family because of insider information she had got as a family friend. He loved his sisters, so of course she was angry about what she had done to Daphne and especially Eloise.

When she had decided to write about Marina's pregancy (instead of speaking to Violet or Eloise), she aimed to ruin her and she also made Colin an object of ridicule. 

Pen's whole life had been a life - she had pretended to be somebody she wasn't. As Lady W she had used power over others. It was realization of this, coming to the open and accepting the consequences that made the final fulfilling to me. 

[Roseanna]

On 1/25/2023 at 2:45 AM, LadyChaos said:

BUT at the end of the day Pen/LW is not responsible for other peoples actions, she is only responsible for exposing them. And people shouldn't blame her for what happened to them when their actions were exposed. Marina and Eloise are still responsible for what they were doing. 

I beg to differ. People have a right to privacy, unless there is "the public interest" involved.

 

  

  

On 1/25/2023 at 2:45 AM, LadyChaos said:

We all gossip, even we say we don't gossip...we still gossip and talk about other people when we're with friends.

Regarding Marina and Eloise, Pen didn't act as a gossiper but as an informer.

[Roseanna]

10 hours ago, RachelKM said:

The desperation made her lies more understandable. But she had other options.   For instance, the old lord who just wanted an heir and would overlook the unlikeliness of the timing of the pregnancy. Was he old?  Yes.  But, there was no indication he would have been cruel. Or she could have been honest with Colin and allowed him to make an informed choice instead of lying to him and tricking him into thinking he would be in a love match.

I say none of this to justify Pen's actions.  I'm just not as sympathetic to Marina. Also, re-watching season 1, Marina was a petulant brat prior Portia leaning she was pregnant.  Marina thought herself superior to Portia and all her machinations because she, Marina, fell IN LOVE and found the Ton's maneuverings distasteful, until she needed to do so herself. 

Marina was a comfortable* country deb who fell for a local wealthy first son and thought a season was an insult to that.  But, for all her faults, Portia was mostly trying to look out for her daughters within the strictures of their society.  

You are right that Marina had other options than tricking Colin. However, I think she is written unfavorable and inconsistently because she is seen mostly an obstacle to Polin and in order to prevent to  condemn Pen's actions to harsly. 

Her initial behavior in London would have more understandable if she had learned her pregnancy only when Portia confronted her abiut it. If she really was so unlike Daphne and knew it already, she would have known also that she would ´have to marry quickly in order to pass her child as 7-month baby and she had sought for any eligible man to willing to elope to Gretna Green ASP.

As it was, her lover's brother was her best option, especially as her eventual son would be his nephew and the "right" heir.

But at least Marina was a much more interesting character than Daphne or Kate as we couldn't predict her actions.  

[Chicago Redshirt]

It's a YMMV moment if you choose to disbelieve what Colin says about what he would have done as well as what was implied about his character (portrayed as always forthright, very much in love, noble-minded, etc.). I don't know what to say. It is just as easily rationalized that any character doesn't mean or say what they say and do. Sometimes, I suppose, that is the case. To me, the show says Marina just was primarily using Colin out of convenience and maybe cared for him a tad by the end of their romance. But it's not a wholly unreasonable view that Marina truly loved Colin but feigned disinterest in their S2 episode because it would be too heartbreaking to have him in her life when she's compelled to remain in her loveless marriage. Or she was purposely harsh to Colin because she knew how smitten he still was and feigning that level of harshness was the only way to cure him of his lovesickness.

Yes, it's possible that if Colin were put in the position of marrying an upfront Marina, he would have shunned her too. But that's not what the text or subtext leads me to believe. 

Nor do I pretend that it would not have been hurtful to know he was raising another man's child, or to the extent he cared about such things, that Marina wasn't a virgin. I was just saying that comparatively the lie about Marina's pregnancy/virginity/true feelings seems like it had far less potential to do harm to Colin than Pen's withholding the secret about her true identity.

The notion that Marina had no intention of telling the truth cuts both ways. It makes the secret-keeping worse in a sense because there would be (say) a dozen people who would know the truth and think perhaps less of him. But from another perspective, living a pleasant lie where neither you nor most will ever find the truth is not so bad in some respects. 

I am not arguing that Marina's lie is not impactful or that it doesn't impact the core of what Colin and Marina would be. I'm just arguing that it was all in all more forgivable and less harmful than Pen's lie.

Pen's lying about being Whistledown go to the center of their friendship and romance too. Putting myself in Colin's shoes, I would much rather be disillusioned by someone who I didn't know that well at the end of the day trying to saddle me with a kid than learn that the true face of my longtime sweet friend was someone who wouldn't hesitate to stick a knife in my ribs and that of my family if it sold one extra scandal sheet - and has in fact done so repeatedly. 

I suppose that Marina's lies are not merely withholding about her being pregnant but include a whole bunch of derivative lies, such as about her feelings for Colin and so forth. I'd guess S1 Colin actually probably found the fact that Marina lied about her feelings for him more hurtful than her attempting to legitimize her kids. Anyway, the original comparison was about the part of the lie having to do with being stuck with another man's baby/babies. I don't know if that necessarily changes the equation because we would also in fairness include a whole bunch of derivative lies Pen told to obscure her being LW. Which basically includes far more of them over a far longer time. 

No doubt that Marina had other options besides trickery or poverty. I have much more sympathy for her than Pen, but that may be a function of I understand her predicament more.

To sum up: I think/hope most people will agree that the lies Marina and Pen told are bad. Different people will evaluate which set of lies was worse differently. 

What gets me is how the show glosses over and justifies what Pen has done as LW, and how easily she gets acceptance and even admiration for it. 

[Roseanna]

15 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Pen's lying about being Whistledown go to the center of their friendship and romance too. Putting myself in Colin's shoes, I would much rather be disillusioned by someone who I didn't know that well at the end of the day trying to saddle me with a kid than learn that the true face of my longtime sweet friend was someone who wouldn't hesitate to stick a knife in my ribs and that of my family if it sold one extra scandal sheet - and has in fact done so repeatedly. 

- - -

What gets me is how the show glosses over and justifies what Pen has done as LW, and how easily she gets acceptance and even admiration for it. 

Well, the hero/heroine usally is forgiven as the happenings are seen fron his/her POV. Imagine if Austen's Emma had been descrbed from the POV of Miss Smith whom Emma cruelly and selfishly made decline the proposal of Mr Martin.

A false identity is common in romances. A rich and powerfull person pretends to be an ordinary person or vice versa - it's a test "who loves a real me". 

Instead, Pen hid her true identity and betrayed the public also secrets of friends (yeah, she claimed that she "helped" Colin and Eloise).

[Roseanna]

18 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

It's a YMMV moment if you choose to disbelieve what Colin says about what he would have done as well as what was implied about his character (portrayed as always forthright, very much in love, noble-minded, etc.). I don't know what to say. It is just as easily rationalized that any character doesn't mean or say what they say and do. Sometimes, I suppose, that is the case. 

Well, a director once said to me: if one asks what "I love you" means, ordinary people answer "it means ILY", but actors can tell dozens of different meanings and thus act in different ways in the scene (f.ex. a character says ILY in order to get something from another). 

Colin seem honestly to have meant what he said. However, some here have said that it was because he believed Marina loved him. But while some persons' love ceases when the loved one behaves badly, other people want to take care of the loved one without waiting to be loved in return.

Regarding Pen, she is presented to have loved Colin for years, but yet she aimed to marry him without telling about her secret identity - how could she then be sure he really loved her as he didn't know her and actually had vowed to revenge on Lady W for all she had done to her family.

   

[RachelKM]

On 6/15/2024 at 6:56 AM, Chicago Redshirt said:

It's a YMMV moment if you choose to disbelieve what Colin says about what he would have done as well as what was implied about his character (portrayed as always forthright, very much in love, noble-minded, etc.). I don't know what to say.

I assume this was in reply to me since I said it was easy for Colin to say he would have married her anyway when it's only theoretical. To be clear, I think Colin meant it.  But people say things like that all the time when they aren't actually faced with the choice.  However, the main point was even if he would have,  it would based on the belief that they were in love. When Colin said that, he still thought she loved him.

On 6/15/2024 at 6:56 AM, Chicago Redshirt said:

But it's not a wholly unreasonable view that Marina truly loved Colin but feigned disinterest in their S2 episode because it would be too heartbreaking to have him in her life when she's compelled to remain in her loveless marriage.

Everything Marina said and did confirmed she did not love Colin.  The real question was if she even respected him.  When Pen confronted Marina, all she said was that Colin was kind and would treat her child(ren) well.  If she had cared at all for him, that would have been the time to say it.  Penelope's main objection was knowing that Marina was only marrying Colin because she was pregnant. 

And there are a LOT of kinder ways to let someone go without being dismissive and annoyed.  For instance, "I am well Colin.  My family is also well.  You coming here does nothing but disturb that.  If you really still care about me, let me live this life without having to see you and think about you." Hell, she could have said that even if she didn't mean it to let go more gently. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

I do wonder what will become of LW as of the end of S3. Does Pen intend to continue spreading gossip, albeit in here own name? Will she/LW largely vanish from the storyline, like Daphne and Simon? (Yes, I know at least some of that is behind-the-scenes real world stuff). Or are we going to see the kindler, gentler LW that was hinted at? 

[Roseanna]

9 hours ago, RachelKM said:

Everything Marina said and did confirmed she did not love Colin.  The real question was if she even respected him.  When Pen confronted Marina, all she said was that Colin was kind and would treat her child(ren) well.  If she had cared at all for him, that would have been the time to say it.  Penelope's main objection was knowing that Marina was only marrying Colin because she was pregnant. 

And there are a LOT of kinder ways to let someone go without being dismissive and annoyed.  For instance, "I am well Colin.  My family is also well.  You coming here does nothing but disturb that.  If you really still care about me, let me live this life without having to see you and think about you." Hell, she could have said that even if she didn't mean it to let go more gently. 

I think Marina had a realistic view about the marriage at the time when she said that Colin was kind and would treat her child well. There is no guarantee that a man who loves his wife treats her well, or f.ex. leaves his family to poverty by gambling away his fortune. And the love can end, especially if it's based only on erotic attraction and spouses have nothing in common.

So instead of asking if Marina loved Colin (I agree that there is no proof she did and ample proof that she didn't), the essential question is if she would have treated him well. Maybe - she must have felt at least gratitude towards him and she was also a good actress. On the other hand, her failed marriage with her lover's brother who seemed a good man shows otherwise.  

As for kinder ways of letting go, unfortunately they can give the other false hope or in Colin's case not help to move on. If a person is still so smitten after years as Colin was, it's better to hep him lose an idealised picture.  

[quarks]

17 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I do wonder what will become of LW as of the end of S3. Does Pen intend to continue spreading gossip, albeit in here own name? Will she/LW largely vanish from the storyline, like Daphne and Simon? (Yes, I know at least some of that is behind-the-scenes real world stuff). Or are we going to see the kindler, gentler LW that was hinted at? 

My sense is that she's going to write a scandal sheet closer to the one in the books - one that is more lighthearted and funny, and which takes the time to praise a few people here and there.

There was a hint of this in the first episode when she was taking the time to praise a few of the debutantes - including Miss Kenworthy, later Lady Cho, who turned into one of the two hardcore Lady Whistledown fans of the season.

But I'm also expecting her to have a much reduced role in later seasons, much like Daphne in season two and Anthony and Kate this season.

[janie jones]

On 6/16/2024 at 7:47 PM, Chicago Redshirt said:

I do wonder what will become of LW as of the end of S3. Does Pen intend to continue spreading gossip, albeit in here own name? Will she/LW largely vanish from the storyline, like Daphne and Simon? (Yes, I know at least some of that is behind-the-scenes real world stuff). Or are we going to see the kindler, gentler LW that was hinted at? 

I can see them having her come out of retirement to report on some scandal.