ElleryAnne September 13, 2014 Share September 13, 2014 (Well, until Kate and the Berserkers got there, anyway.) True. Maybe the trick is to enter via the window. 1 Link to comment
Bruinsfan September 13, 2014 Share September 13, 2014 Instead, I'll just pretend that sex with Derek is so good that she forgot who she was. ;) All those chinups and pushups had to be good for something - they certainly didn't make him better able to fight for most of the show's run so far. Link to comment
lion10 September 13, 2014 Share September 13, 2014 I'm really prejudiced negatively against the Noshiko/Kira relationship. The pile-of-bones-vision did nothing for me and I have an allergy to multi-hundred-year-old characters (they're never done well) even though I have a big soft spot for Kira's dad. He needs to be written with more backbone though, because with an overpowered wife and child, he needs more narrative strength. Why don't you like the relationship between Noshiko and Kira? I don't think it's the best but I think that it's because Teen Wolf hasn't focused much on their interactions. Though maybe that's intentional. Kira's been show to have more interaction with her dad than her mom so maybe we're supposed to think that she's supposed to be closer with her dad than her mom. When she talks to Noshiko, the conversations seem to be a lot more authoritarian than when she talks to Ken. But her increased interaction with her dad is mainly because he's a teacher so who knows... Link to comment
Yitzhak September 14, 2014 Share September 14, 2014 (edited) And I really liked Kira with Scott last season. This season, meh. Yeah, the grandma kiss and the first date were cute, but she was so underused. One of the biggest false promises of S4 was the writers claim that they were going to show a powerful friendship bond between Lydia, Kira and Malia. Yet in the whole 12 episodes I don't think we ever saw the three of them together. Just a few brief scenes with two of the girls at a time. Which certainly weren't enough to give me the impression that the three girls hung out together in their spare time, had sleepovers, etc. Lydia had most of her scenes with male characters (Stiles and Parrish), Malia had most of her scenes with male characters (Stiles and Peter) and Kira spent most of her time with Scott. So, Bechdel fail (with the slight exception of Lydia/Meredith). The writers did a better job with Liam & Mason's friendship in S4. But then it's always felt like female friendships come second to male friendships on this show. Lydia & Allison's friendship was never given the same importance as Stiles & Scott's friendship. But going back to the theme of family - the final scene with Malia, Stiles and the Sheriff seems to signify that Malia has been adopted into the Stilinski family, in a similar way to how Issac was adopted by the McCalls (you know, illegally). I get the impression the show won't even both to mention Mr Tate, her actual adoptive father, ever again. But while Malia seems to reject Peter as her family does that go for all Malia's werewolf relatives? Obviously she's interested in finding her mother, but how about Derek and Malia being cousins? And how Derek can change between being a man and a full wolf? Isn't that something Malia would like to do since she missed being a coyote? I don't actually mind Stiles/Malia as a short term ship, but I don't think they should be endgame. I'd like to see more darkness and conflict regarding Malia being a born werewolf living with an adoptive human family - particularly since Malia killed her last adoptive human family. S4 has played up Malia being cute, funny and un-socialized, but it's the darkness and animalistic nature of her character that I'm really interested in. If her Desert Wolf mom turns out to be a non-murdering psycho but IS some sort of fugitive, I think there's potential for Malia to exit the story by leaving Beacon Hills with her true family and possibly returning to her coyote form. Edited September 14, 2014 by Yitzhak Link to comment
caseylane September 14, 2014 Author Share September 14, 2014 It's funny, I thought I would be all over the Derek/Braedon relationship and hate the Stiles/Malia relationship (as a Sterek fan knowing it wouldn't happen). Instead I at least find fun and real emotion in Stiles/Malia. Derek/Braedon just doesn't ring true to me. She seems to default to a smirk and he doesn't seem to be passionate about anything. If they had them as sexy co-warriors I could believe that, but as some big love story with her crying and all, it just didn't ring true. That shouldn't happen since they are both smoking hot, I should feel something when they are together. Link to comment
blueray September 14, 2014 Share September 14, 2014 I honestly laughed when she got all "crying". I suppose this is because I didn't believe that Derek was dead (which of course he wasn't). And I could care less about there relationship. I didn't hate it or like it. Link to comment
FurryFury September 14, 2014 Share September 14, 2014 To be fair, the crying wasn't done well at all. I couldn't care less about Sterek, but Derek/Braeden was really meh... as were all Derek's romances, actually. I guess his only relationship with a female I find interesting is with Kate, but not in a romantic sense, obviously. Link to comment
lion10 September 14, 2014 Share September 14, 2014 To be fair, the crying wasn't done well at all. I couldn't care less about Sterek, but Derek/Braeden was really meh... as were all Derek's romances, actually. I guess his only relationship with a female I find interesting is with Kate, but not in a romantic sense, obviously. What I find interesting about Derek and Kate's relationship was that as messed up as it was, Derek might have been considered fair game because of his blue eyes. Blue eyes mean you've killed an innocent, therefore confirming to hunters that you're dangerous so Kate might've looked at her manipulation of Derek as something he had coming. That, and Kate's very sadistic and was raised by Gerard. Link to comment
FurryFury September 14, 2014 Share September 14, 2014 I think there was a ton of potential for Derek's character development/exploration there (and Kate's probably too), but it all got wasted because Teen Wolf. Link to comment
ElleryAnne September 14, 2014 Share September 14, 2014 Kate might've looked at her manipulation of Derek as something he had coming. True. Kate was evil for burning down a house full of people, including children (since at least Cora was supposedly in there when she burned it), and some of the people were humans and not werewolves. But the idea that Kate would believe she was justified definitely had potential. She certainly believed it back in S1. I think the relationships between her and Derek, her and Chris, and Derek and Chris (after 3b had them start to understand each other better) had a lot of potential coming into S4, because of shifting loyalties and justifications for what they were doing. Of course, the show didn't go there. Link to comment
caseylane September 14, 2014 Author Share September 14, 2014 What I find interesting about Derek and Kate's relationship was that as messed up as it was, Derek might have been considered fair game because of his blue eyes. Blue eyes mean you've killed an innocent, therefore confirming to hunters that you're dangerous so Kate might've looked at her manipulation of Derek as something he had coming. That, and Kate's very sadistic and was raised by Gerard. I never actually considered that and it's a valid point. It's hard to take a teen as innocent when you can tell he, in her eyes, murdered an innocent. It still doesn't change the fact she murdered children though. You know, in good hands Teen Wolf could be a really thought provoking show instead of the near train wreck that it is. 1 Link to comment
jhlipton September 14, 2014 Share September 14, 2014 [stiles] stabbed Scott while he was possessed. Now that Scott has stabbed Kira while possessed, if Kira stabs Stiles, it will have come full circle! Better yet, Kira stabs Lydia, Lydia stabs Malia and Malia stabs Stiles. Oh, what angst!!! 2 Link to comment
Yitzhak September 14, 2014 Share September 14, 2014 Now that Scott has stabbed Kira while possessed, if Kira stabs Stiles, it will have come full circle! Better yet, Kira stabs Lydia, Lydia stabs Malia and Malia stabs Stiles. Oh, what angst!!! And then the pack will really need to have a group therapy session about how they all feel about almost killing each other while they were supernaturally deranged. Link to comment
Bruinsfan September 15, 2014 Share September 15, 2014 Would Kate have known Derek's eyes had turned blue in werewolf form when he was a teenager, though? Link to comment
CooperTV September 15, 2014 Share September 15, 2014 Would Kate have known Derek's eyes had turned blue in werewolf form when he was a teenager, though? Well, he probably let her on on the secret he was werewolf, seeing how trusting he is of her in 4.02. But the idea that Kate would believe she was justified definitely had potential. She's a crazy mass murderer that seduced and manipulated a minor, and then years later, tortured him for days, and then kidnapped him and probably tortured him and stripped him of his power. I absolutely do not care about her justifications. The only possible outcome for Kate's "character development" and her "reasons" in Teen Wolf universe could be crazy amount of victim-blaming, and we had it already in S1. Season 4 was refreshingly victim-blaming free in that regard, and I appreciate it. Link to comment
FurryFury September 15, 2014 Share September 15, 2014 I don't think that the fact she's evil and crazy means she doesn't deserve being explored and developed. Villains need to be layered too. Now, victim-blaming is a different problem altogether. It's not connected to character exploration inherently. 2 Link to comment
ElleryAnne September 15, 2014 Share September 15, 2014 (edited) The only possible outcome for Kate's "character development" and her "reasons" in Teen Wolf universe could be crazy amount of victim-blaming, and we had it already in S1. If done well, character development for Kate (including the view of her reasons) wouldn't amount to actual victim-blaming but might show that Kate justified it by blaming the victim, which is something different than the show acting as if blaming the victim was acceptable. Or it could demonstrate that Kate was delusional, misguided due to Gerard's influence, outright evil, or struggling with guilt. But I'll admit options like that would require skilled writers, so in Teen Wolf's universe - the land in which consent issues and emotional trauma are disregarded because Jeff Davis doesn't recognize them when they happen - something like Kate's character development would probably be handled horribly, as well. It's too bad, because when the mindset of a villain - even an over-the-top one - is explored, there's potential for a great story. Edited September 15, 2014 by ElleryAnne 2 Link to comment
Carrie Ann September 30, 2014 Share September 30, 2014 Yeah, she kinda does. Her character was based around Stiles. She was almost always shown in scenes with him. She started off the season claiming to be his mate. All that other stuff - her training with Scott, etc.... how much time did that get this season, compared to the time she spent with Stiles? For that matter, how much time did she spend talking about her family? She certainly didn't have any scenes with the guy she thought was her father for most of her life. Not even a phone call. Was there even a reference? She had a couple of scenes with Peter and a couple with Lydia, and one with Derek. But her scenes for most of the season were primarily with Stiles, and primarily to establish them as a couple. Everything else was a distant second place in her story. I get that fans of hers (or of SH, since from what I've seen most Malia apologists were SH fans before and that's where their passion comes from) will want to defend the character. But the show itself doesn't bear it out. If Malia's story was supposed to be about Malia, then there would have been more attention to the parts of the story about who she is. But the part of her story that got the most air time was the part in which she's connected to Stiles. Her primary role was to be his gf. And yes, his primary role this season was to be her LI. But at least that comes after 3 seasons of establishing him as a multi-dimensional character in his own right. They haven't done that with her. They brought her in because JD wants to tell the story of Stiles and a she-werecreature. So he wasn't concerned about developing her as a muti-faceted character. He takes her as a one-dimensional character, explains next to nothing about her background, and attaches her to Stiles. Because that's all he wanted her for. But we don't find out she's a marshal until the end. She was just as capable of training him when we think she's a mercenary (which honestly also made her far more interesting, IMO), but again - her "training" Derek was an excuse to have her serve as his love interest and nothing more. She didn't even spend time doing what she purportedly was supposed to be in Beacon Hills to do, which was to look for Kate. But even if we go along with the retcon and say she's a marshal obsessed with finding the Desert Wolf (ugh), why wasn't she spending time doing that? Okay, she's not a main character. That's fine. Let's say she got about one hour of air time this season. Other than the first episode, nearly all of her scenes involved Derek, and most of them were establishing a romance between them. Because that's why they wanted her around this season - to give him a love interest. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but I'm not going to pretend that they had anything more interesting than that in mind for her when it's obvious from the writing for her that they didn't. The emphasis was on her as Derek's LI. But that's because they got it right with Allison. They developed her as a character beyond having her just be Scott's gf. There were plenty of scenes of Allison with her family, and scenes with Lydia, and even scenes of her alone working on things. They took time to show that she was important to the story as a character in her own right. Neither Malia nor Braeden have gotten any similar treatment to that in S4 - their importance was to serve as LI's in insta-romances. That's what the writing bears out. And the fact that they got it right with Allison only proves that they could have gotten it right with Malia and Braeden, but didn't bother to, because neither character's development was a priority for the season. They were only needed for one thing. In terms of love stories, TW's writers' options are to pair all the existing characters up (which really means Lydia has to get with all the guys), or introduce new characters, or never have love stories. The third one isn't an option for Teen Wolf, and while I know we've all complained about their handling of romance, it's never going to stop being an element of the show. And all the actors seem pretty over it, to me, so the show needs to introduce new characters if it wants to last past the original cast departure. And the way you intro characters is via other characters as an entry point. So, the standards you're using here aren't equivalent. You're talking about Allison and Lydia, who started out as 2 of the 5 main characters in Season 1. (I personally don't consider Jackson one of the main characters, but more of a foil, but that probably would have changed if CH had stuck around). They've had 3-4 seasons of development, and when the show began, all the characters were new, so none of them needed another character as an "entry point." Yet, Allison and Lydia were both immediately love interests of the main guys too, because characters need connections to each other in order to create stakes. From my perspective, bringing an intriguing recurring guest character like Braeden back as a love interest for Derek is one of the best possible roads to take. I like her; I like that she was already involved in this world in her own way and doesn't need Derek to show her the ropes; I like that there is potential for further development. I also believe that her character was not ruined in any way, or thrown out the window or any of the other things I've seen people say. I think it was developed. I guess if you believed that she was a sociopathic mercenary, and were really attached to that version of her... That that one level we'd seen of her was all there was to her--that she was incapable of emotion or lust or interest in other people--then it would be really hard to see her open up to someone and care about them. I just find it odd that people seem to think we knew her so well pre-Derek, when we didn't know her at all. We're getting to know her now. I prefer this version of her, who has taken care of herself for so many years, without ties to others, who has found a person she can connect with. As far as Malia, I will continue to sing this at the top of my lungs: I had never seen Shelley Hennig in anything before this show. I had no attachment to her at all. And yet I love Malia, and I love SH now, and I find her character and her relationship with Stiles intriguing and rootable. And so do all the people I know IRL who watch the show. *shrug* Also, yeah, I don't see that Malia was solely a LI at all. Like Braeden, she had connections to this world beyond Stiles. Many of her scenes were with him, but many of their scenes together also involved the other characters. She's a Hale for a reason. And while I'm not so sure about Braeden, I am sure that JD has long-term plans for Malia, and she certainly won't be Stiles's love interest forever. Anyway, we disagree that they only existed to be LIs, but even if I did believe that, I don't see why it would be such a problem. It's one season. One. A season of setting things up, introducing and developing them, and also putting those characters in the position of making out with two lead characters. I guess everyone could just be celibate until their characters are firmly established and developed to actualization, but that's not how TV works. 4 Link to comment
ElleryAnne September 30, 2014 Share September 30, 2014 (edited) From my perspective, bringing an intriguing recurring guest character like Braeden back as a love interest for Derek is one of the best possible roads to take. It should be. But it shouldn't result in the character losing most of the rest of who she is in order to be that love interest. The show could have brought her back, kept her mainly as who she was (in her case, a mercenary and/or marshal tracking someone down), and slowly introduced the love-interest as a secondary story. But this show did the opposite. They brought her back, dropped most of the rest of who she was in order to make her mainly a love interest. That's NOT the right way to do it. And Malia's handling was even worse, because they didn't make even an attempt to explain her backstory issues. They just stuck her to Stiles' side, had him comment on the progress she was making, and JD told people in interviews that he hoped the fans would forgive him for it. when the show began, all the characters were new, so none of them needed another character as an "entry point." Yet, Allison and Lydia were both immediately love interests of the main guys too, because characters need connections to each other in order to create stakes. But they were all developed as characters while also being developed as love-interests. It shouldn't be either/or. Braeden's character as an individual was shelved in order to make her a love interest, and Malia got no development at all beyond the one trait. It didn't take the writers 3 or 4 seasons to give Lydia or Allison personalities and stories beyond an attachment to one guy apiece. I don't excuse poor writing on the basis of it being one season. And in both Malia's and Braeden's case, they actually had more than the one season because they were originally introduced in S3. All that had to happen was to build on their characters while developing them slowly as love interests. That wasn't done in this case - instead, they were brought into the season to serve one purpose, and the rest of their development went out the window. Agree to disagree, I guess. Edited September 30, 2014 by ElleryAnne Link to comment
Carrie Ann September 30, 2014 Share September 30, 2014 (edited) Yeah, that's the crux. I disagree that their character development was dropped, or that either one of them was so established in their previous characterization as to allow no room for change while also getting with a dude, so I bristle at it being treated as a fact. And again, when it comes to Lydia and Allison--they were developed while also acting as love interests over the course of three/four seasons. They had time, and an audience that allowed for it. Edited September 30, 2014 by Carrie Ann Link to comment
ElleryAnne September 30, 2014 Share September 30, 2014 (edited) that either one of them was so established in their previous characterization as to allow no room for change I never said either was so well established as to allow no room for change. Please do not put words in my mouth. I said that they should have been given further development as individual characters, rather than losing that kind of development and being used primarily as love interests. But development of them as characters in their own right was sacrificed because most of their air time went to establishing them as love interests. And again, when it comes to Lydia and Allison--they were developed while also acting as love interests over the course of three/four seasons. Yes, but they were better-developed even in the first couple of seasons. It didn't take four seasons. Lydia's development was minimal in S4, and Allison is dead. Edited September 30, 2014 by ElleryAnne Link to comment
Carrie Ann September 30, 2014 Share September 30, 2014 (edited) I never said either was so well established as to allow no room for change. Please do not put words in my mouth. I said that they should have been given further development as individual characters, rather than losing that kind of development and being used primarily as love interests. But development of them as characters in their own right was sacrificed because most of their air time went to establishing them as love interests. Didn't mean to put those words in your mouth, I apologize. What I was referring to is your statement that Braeden was a marshall/mercenary and then that was dropped so that she could be Derek's LI. My take is that all we knew about her was that she was a mercenary--that's the only facet of her we had any info about. So I DO see it as development that we got to see other facets of her as well and that more time was spent on that. I don't see it as them dropping or disregarding or not developing the only part of her we'd seen before. I saw that developed too--she used that side of her to teach Derek how to protect himself, as others have stated. She used it to help the group several times through the season. She was still doing that work when she got nearly killed mid-season. I'd like to get more backstory on her and how she came to do all this stuff, but that's true of every character, basically. And I'm absolutely not going to argue w/r/t Lydia. She's been woefully underserved, for at least two seasons running now, and if I were HR, I'd wash my hands of the whole thing. Edited September 30, 2014 by Carrie Ann Link to comment
ElleryAnne September 30, 2014 Share September 30, 2014 Didn't mean to put those words in your mouth, I apologize. No worries :) . Link to comment
galax-arena September 30, 2014 Share September 30, 2014 I am sure that JD has long-term plans for Malia Which better consist of having her get together with Kira. …What? Link to comment
Yitzhak September 30, 2014 Share September 30, 2014 (edited) Romance with yearning and hope and all that implies. Dylan O'B is probably the best actor on the show and cute as a button, while Tyler H. is masculine in an alpha male (non werewolf) way. I realize these kind of stereotyped 'uke' and 'seme' ships are popular in slash fiction, but it's one the main reasons Sterek doesn't appeal to me at all. It just seems like a gay version of the cute lonely human falling in love with the macho supernatural stud. The het version of that romance is cheesy and overdone in fantasy shows, so I don't see why doing a gay version makes it anymore interesting. But the reason why fans are not getting that "romantic yearning" story from Stiles and Derek is it was established early on that they don't like each other very much. And squabbling odd couple pairings often do have good chemistry but it's not a chemistry of a romantic nature. Edited September 30, 2014 by Yitzhak Link to comment
ElleryAnne September 30, 2014 Share September 30, 2014 But the reason why fans are not getting that "romantic yearning" story from Stiles and Derek is it was established early on that they don't like each other very much. Eh, some see it as a Sam and Diane from Cheers kinda thing. Antagonistic but with the potential to develop into something different. But that's just a matter of how people see it. Obviously a lot of Sterek fans see a potential that non-fans don't, but to each his own. (I didn't personally see anything in Allison/Isaac but I know a lot of people did. It's all good.) The show clearly chose not to develop the relationship in that direction, which is just as well, but it's too bad that they've opted to not even put them in scenes together because their chemistry - as JD himself admitted - was some of the best in the show. Link to comment
Gwen-Stacys October 1, 2014 Share October 1, 2014 Eh, some see it as a Sam and Diane from Cheers kinda thing. Antagonistic but with the potential to develop into something different. But that's just a matter of how people see it. Obviously a lot of Sterek fans see a potential that non-fans don't, but to each his own. (I didn't personally see anything in Allison/Isaac but I know a lot of people did. It's all good.) The show clearly chose not to develop the relationship in that direction, which is just as well, but it's too bad that they've opted to not even put them in scenes together because their chemistry - as JD himself admitted - was some of the best in the show. Yes, but the attraction has to be there. It was hinted that Stiles maybe might could be bi, but that distinction was never I said that they should have been given further development as individual characters, rather than losing that kind of development and being used primarily as love interests. They didn't though. Again, CA's point was that we didn't know enough about either one of them to say that the writers dropped anything. And Braeden didn't stick around with Derek until after she'd been shot in like...episode 5 or 6. All the time in between epi 4 and that episode she had been looking for Kate like she'd been paid (twice) to do. They even hint at her sentimental side when he bluntly tells Scott that he should've kissed Kira before he left and she didn't understand him pussy footing about it (that you can infer from her tone and the way she asked her questions). Malia had a story outside of Stiles. Yes, she was with him the most (because she trusted him the most), but she spent at least two full episodes without him. The one where she takes a day trip with her cousin, the one where she plays Lydia's bodyguard, and the one where she's purposely ignoring Stiles (she talks to him at the end for 1 minute then leaves.). It's more than implied that she's spent time with Lydia in offscreens-ville as well as Kira. Not to mention Peter. You see her talk to him in the vault one episode, then you see him stalk find her in another and she comments that she already told him not to talk to her there. When she was with Stiles they were trying to figure shit out about the dead pool (SPN show style) or they were doing homework in his room (real life high school relationship style.) Yes, but they were better-developed even in the first couple of seasons. It didn't take four seasons. Lydia's development was minimal in S4, and Allison is dead. But it took longer than 1 season to develop them both. Allison's character didn't start becoming 3-dimensional until towards the end of season 2. Lydia was the same old Lydia (2 dimensional) until season 3 where you start to see her evolve. Carrie-Anne's point is that you're comparing Allison and Lydia's development over the course of 3 whole seasons to Malia and Braeden who were around full time for 1 season. It's apples and oranges right now. Malia is where Allison was at the end of season 1: many avenues to travel in regards to her potential story. She has potential family drama, issues with her mother, struggling with who and what she is, etc. Braeden is a little further than Lydia was at the end of her first season. All we knew about Lydia was that she was a mean girl that randomly had aspirations to win the Fields Medal along with hooking up with the big man on campus. Season 1 you would assume her attachment to Jackson had more to do with their shared status than any real feelings from either. In Braeden's 1 and only season, you know she's a bounty hunter and that may or may not be a US Marshall. She legitimately went to the police station under the guise of being a US Marshal, flashed her badge, and apparently checked out well enough for them to give her police files on The Mute in the 3rd episode this season. So no, your argument that we only just found out about her being a Marshall at the end is not entirely true. It was confirmed that she was REALLY a US marshal in the last episode when she kind of rolled her eyes at Stiles for thinking she'd been lying about it. So while a lot of our disagreements can be attributed to differences of opinion, that one is not opinion. The show actually hits you over the head with her potential occupation multiple times. 1 Link to comment
ElleryAnne October 1, 2014 Share October 1, 2014 Braeden is a little further than Lydia was at the end of her first season. Not really. The Marshal thing came at the end of her second season, but her "first" season took a while to even give us a name for her. (Do we even have a last name for her?) And her second season didn't bother to develop her as anything more than a love interest, with the exception of the last-minute offhand, "oh, she's really a marshal" thing. On the other hand, by the end of the first season Lydia had connections to several characters, and was fairly well-developed in personality, with her self-assured side balanced by a softer, more vulnerable side. Malia is where Allison was at the end of season 1: many avenues to travel in regards to her potential story. But she was there at the beginning of the season. They did hardly anything with it. One afternoon with Derek - during which we don't even know if he knows he's her cousin, because we didn't get any real scenes with them that lasted more than a minute. Her couple of scenes with Lydia were just as short. FWIW, I really liked her scene with Lydia at the school when Lydia confessed how hard it was for her being a banshee. There was the possibility of using that to show that Malia was starting to grow as a person. Had they focused more on scenes like that, it would have helped Malia by building other relationships for her. But they didn't - they just kept returning to the Stalia story line. Because that's the Malia they wanted to sell to us. Braeden still has only one personality trait. She's tough. And Malia has only one personality trait. She's tough. (Oh, I guess she's got a second one. She's confused sometimes.) This is not my idea of furthering character development. Braeden's got almost no connections still to anyone on canvas except Derek (token appearance with Peter and Scott). Malia's not much more connected than Braeden in spite of being a central character. Both women have very little personal development because their value to the writers this season was limited almost entirely to their relationships with the men they were thrown into insta-romances with. I get that some folks want to be loyal to the show or the characters and stick up for them.. And I doubt we're going to change each other's mind at this point. When I look at the body of work that is Season Four, the majority of scenes for both Braeden and Malia have them each as one-note characters attached to leading men. I'm not trying to put down the characters - only the writing. But I guess it's another case where we'll have to agree to disagree. Link to comment
Gwen-Stacys October 1, 2014 Share October 1, 2014 Not really. The Marshal thing came at the end of her second season, but her "first" season took a while to even give us a name for her. (Do we even have a last name for her?) And her second season didn't bother to develop her as anything more than a love interest, with the exception of the last-minute offhand, "oh, she's really a marshal" thing. On the other hand, by the end of the first season Lydia had connections to several characters, and was fairly well-developed in personality, with her self-assured side balanced by a softer, more vulnerable side. But she was there at the beginning of the season. They did hardly anything with it. One afternoon with Derek - during which we don't even know if he knows he's her cousin, because we didn't get any real scenes with them that lasted more than a minute. Her couple of scenes with Lydia were just as short. FWIW, I really liked her scene with Lydia at the school when Lydia confessed how hard it was for her being a banshee. There was the possibility of using that to show that Malia was starting to grow as a person. Had they focused more on scenes like that, it would have helped Malia by building other relationships for her. But they didn't - they just kept returning to the Stalia story line. Because that's the Malia they wanted to sell to us. Braeden still has only one personality trait. She's tough. And Malia has only one personality trait. She's tough. (Oh, I guess she's got a second one. She's confused sometimes.) This is not my idea of furthering character development. Braeden's got almost no connections still to anyone on canvas except Derek (token appearance with Peter and Scott). Malia's not much more connected than Braeden in spite of being a central character. Both women have very little personal development because their value to the writers this season was limited almost entirely to their relationships with the men they were thrown into insta-romances with. I get that some folks want to be loyal to the show or the characters and stick up for them.. And I doubt we're going to change each other's mind at this point. When I look at the body of work that is Season Four, the majority of scenes for both Braeden and Malia have them each as one-note characters attached to leading men. I'm not trying to put down the characters - only the writing. But I guess it's another case where we'll have to agree to disagree. I literally gave you 3 episodic examples of them telling you that Braeden was a US Marshall before she in fact confirmed that she was a US Marshall at the end of the season, but if you want to keep saying that they just dropped it out of nowhere, that's your prerogative lovely :P And again with Malia's personality/Braeden's personality, people are going to see (or not see) what they want to see. And again, that is your prerogative Link to comment
ElleryAnne October 1, 2014 Share October 1, 2014 I literally gave you 3 episodic examples of them telling you that Braeden was a US Marshall before she in fact confirmed that she was a US Marshall at the end of the season Hmm, nope. One example in which she seemed to be posing as a marshal. Not three examples of the show telling us she was. If there's anything else to be said about what the show tells us about her, it should probably go in her thread. Link to comment
Gwen-Stacys October 1, 2014 Share October 1, 2014 Hmm, nope. One example in which she seemed to be posing as a marshal. Not three examples of the show telling us she was. If there's anything else to be said about what the show tells us about her, it should probably go in her thread. taking to her thread. Link to comment
Yitzhak October 9, 2014 Share October 9, 2014 At this stage, I don't want any of the characters in romantic relationships with any of the others because JD can't write them well. But the purpose could theoretically be more than tokenism, if handled well (and yeah, that's not likely), because bisexuality is real and it could be interesting to see a character explore coming to terms with that identity - whether or not there was an actual romance involved. I guess it depends on whether you think a character discovering something about himself can be interesting apart from whether there's an accompanying sex scene. I think Stiles having a big revelation about his sexuality would be out of place in Jeff's vision of Beacon Hills as a town where being queer is total non-issue. I think the Caitlin scene (if nothing else) showed that bisexuality isn't even something a character would have to "come to terms" with. It's just a simple matter of liking boys and girls and no Beacon Hills residents are going to have trouble accepting that sexual orientation. Like it or not, TW isn't a show about kids coming to terms with their sexuality (it never has been). It's a show about kids coming to terms with being werewolves. Though it could be argued that one can be viewed as a metaphor for the other. Personally when I've felt a burning desire to see a given character confirmed as 'canon queer' (and believe me I have) it's usually because I have it in my head that the character has romantic feelings for another character of the same sex and I want the given show acknowledge those feelings explicitly. But for me, unless the character's sexual orientation is important to their storyline or their relationships, I don't really care which way they swing. In canon Stiles hasn't really shown any signs of having strong romantic feelings towards another male character unless we take a queer view on the Scott/Stiles friendship. Which I'm really surprised more fans don't. The Skittles ship is way more substantial and heartfelt than any potential Sterek ship. I like them as best friends forever, but for all these fans who are supposedly desperate to see a big love story between two male characters on Teen Wolf I don't know why they ignore the one that's right at the center of the show. Between the two main male characters no less. I took it to be a dismissal of the idea of Stiles as anything other than basic vanilla het. Being heterosexual doesn't make a person basic and vanilla in their sexuality. That's a very reductive derogatory implication in itself. Even if Stiles only likes girls it doesn't automatically make him (or any other het boy or girl) sexually boring and conventional. Het boys can still be sexually kinky. Especially when they date werewolf girls. I actually really like the whole "little spoon" thing with the Stiles/Malia ship as it strongly hints at them being a couple who don't revert to traditional gender roles in bed (you better believe there is Stalia pegging fic out there). Of course they can't show exactly what kind of kinky rough sex Stalia have within the PG limits of an MTV teen show, but the hints are there and I actually wish they'd find ways to develop the gender subversion aspect of Stalia more in canon. Personally I don't see why fans should like Stiles less as a character if he happens to be het, not bi (unless you only like the character for shipping reasons). In canon, Stiles is queer friendly and bi-curious. He actively wants gay guys to find him attractive. He'll dance with a girl who he thinks is a lesbian. He likes to party with drag queens. He has a large collection of bondage chains in his bedroom. Bisexual or not, Stiles isn't vanilla. Heterosexual doesn't equate to conventional and het people can still be queer allies. It doesn't have to be a "Stiles is either with us or against us!" thing. Link to comment
ElleryAnne October 9, 2014 Share October 9, 2014 (edited) I think Stiles having a big revelation about his sexuality would be out of place in Jeff's vision of Beacon Hills as a town where being queer is total non-issue. But it doesn't have to be a big revelation. Nobody's asking for anything like that, as far as I know. That's the whole thing. It could be something about himself that he just grows to understand. No big reveal, no Very Special Episode. It could just be part of who he is, without being played as a joke. Just something he begins to realize about himself. The same way it sometimes happens in real life. And Jeff Davis' version of Beacon Hills is a town where gay is fine as long as it's in the background and doesn't affect any main characters. All of his boasts to the contrary, his writing proves otherwise. And Dylan's comment made it sound like Stiles' bi-curiosity is being played as a joke. As someone for whom it's not a joke, I find that kind of offensive - especially in light of JD's earlier claims that the references were being written in there intentionally. And the hell of it all is, if the show didn't run around bragging about how great it thinks it is with its "queer is a non-issue" universe, it wouldn't matter in the least that they may be backtracking. They're the ones that set up the expectations. They offered the standard by which they wanted to be judged. Being heterosexual doesn't make a person basic and vanilla in their sexuality. That's a very reductive derogatory implication in itself. Really, that's how you interpret that? I'm not saying that heterosexuality itself is basic vanilla. I'm saying that Dylan's comment made it sound like they're writing (or rewriting) Stiles' sexuality as basic vanilla het - as in the usual recipe. The cake at its most basic. It's a reference to the starter/ordinary version of something, with no additional spice or flavors/elements. It's easier than going in-depth to explain that I think Stiles' sexuality is being written as the typical teen-tv safe het, and I don't think it's going to be written to include sadism, water sports, discipline, etc. But if the clarification is necessary in order not to offend, then okay. I don't see why fans should like Stiles less as a character if he happens to be het I've never seen anyone say that anybody else should like or dislike him based only on his being ANY sexuality. unless you only like the character for shipping reasons And this is another assumption that bugs me. People who connect with the idea of Stiles as an example of bi representation are not always doing so for shipping reasons. Yet it seems like they're always dismissed as if their interests could never possibly be more than that. People can have reasons for wanting bi representation that are as varied as their reasons for wanting anything else. And shipping isn't much of a reason for wanting representation anyway - shippers have long written character relationships with no regard for canon sexuality. It's a non-issue most of the time. But bi representation is something that some people want for the same reason they want ethnic, race, age, weight, ability, religious or any other representation. And sometimes they want it for some other reason. It's not all about shipping. Personally when I've felt a burning desire to see a given character confirmed as 'canon queer' (and believe me I have) it's usually because I have it in my head that the character has romantic feelings for another character of the same sex and I want the given show acknowledge those feelings explicitly. And that's fine. I totally get that. But it's not the only reason some people want to see a character confirmed as canon queer. Really. The Skittles ship is way more substantial and heartfelt than any potential Sterek ship. I like them as best friends forever, but for all these fans who are supposedly desperate to see a big love story between two male characters on Teen Wolf I don't know why they ignore the one that's right at the center of the show. Between the two main male characters no less. I can't speak for everyone, of course. But I find that affectionate, caring brotherly relationships don't often translate as easily to slash. Sometimes it takes a bit of antagonism or conflict to ignite a spark, and then things develop from there. I think that's why so many rom-coms have that love/hate relationship as a starting premise. Of course they can't show exactly what kind of kinky rough sex Stalia have within the PG limits of an MTV teen show, but the hints are there and I actually wish they'd find ways to develop the genderqueer aspect of Stalia more in canon. I don't get the impression they're having kinky rough sex. Frankly, I'm not sure what Jeff is trying to imply as far as their sexual relationship goes. I don't know if even he knows what he wants to imply. The original reference to her sneaking in and spooning didn't come across well to a lot of people (myself included) because of the sense of dubious consent it carried. They tried to fix that later with the flashback, so I'll give them a pass on it, but it still colors the tone of the relationship to me. As does the initial hookup in Eichen House, which also had significant consent issues. The problem is that Jeff Davis doesn't really understand consent issues. He certainly doesn't know how to write relationships that involve characters dealing with those issues, or with the repercussions of them. Which is another reason he should just stop trying to write "romance" altogether. Edited October 9, 2014 by ElleryAnne 1 Link to comment
Yitzhak October 11, 2014 Share October 11, 2014 (edited) And Dylan's comment made it sound like Stiles' bi-curiosity is being played as a joke. As someone for whom it's not a joke, I find that kind of offensive - especially in light of JD's earlier claims that the references were being written in there intentionally. But Stiles's sexual curiosity is often played for laughs on the show. And not just things like Stiles hoping Danny finds him attractive or Stiles considering losing his virginity to Danny to keep himself safe from being ritually sacrificed (those were joke scenes. Funny ones too, not offensive). Stiles sexual encounters with girls are often played for laughs too. Like the big spoon/little spoon stuff with Malia or the whole XXL condom farce when he's trying to hook up with Heather. Stiles is a comic character so that means many things about him - his sexuality included - will be treated in a jokey manner. So if you think bisexuality (or bi-curiosity, which is a different thing) should be portrayed completely humorlessly then Stiles may not be the best character to act as your bi rep. Dylan's comment made it sound like they're writing (or rewriting) Stiles' sexuality as basic vanilla het - as in the usual recipe. How exactly did Dylan's comment imply that? There's nothing in Dylan's wording that implies either a) that there's been a big rewrite of Stiles sexuality, or b) that Stiles heterosexuality is a bland vanilla type of sexuality. And to go back to the comments Jeff made at that con - he actually said that making Stiles bisexual is something they might do if they got "bored". That doesn't sound like there was ever a solid plan in place to me. He also said the fan had put him on the spot, which suggests to me that they may only have been toying with the idea and not at all committed to it. That's not an unusual thing. The writers of Friends toyed with the idea of Chandler being gay in the early days, decided against it and instead had a running joke where people wrongly assume Chandler is gay. And there's clearly a lot of Chandler influence in Stiles's characterization. I find that affectionate, caring brotherly relationships don't often translate as easily to slash. Sometimes it takes a bit of antagonism or conflict to ignite a spark, and then things develop from there You may be right, but then I'd say again that wanting a slash pairing to be canon is not the same as wanting gay representation on a show. Most gay couples I know are affectionate caring life partners. That's the kind of positive and accurate representation that gay relationships deserve. The antagonistic thing, the slap slap kiss thing is a romantic trope. It's pretty much a cliche for shippy stories, het and slash. It's more based on erotic fantasy and as such an unrealistic representation of gay relationships. And let's not forget that slash is more prevalently the fantasy of women, not gay men. I don't get the impression they're having kinky rough sex. Frankly, I'm not sure what Jeff is trying to imply as far as their sexual relationship goes. I think it's been implied that Malia is the more sexually dominant one, with the "big spoon" signifier but also the way Malia initiates most of the kissing and groping between them. I thought the implication of Malia being rough and dominant was exactly why fans claimed Malia's sneaking into Stiles bed at night might be non-consensual. But I think it's been clarified that Stiles likes their dynamic and isn't intimidated by having a girlfriend who can physically overpower him. The whole scene were Stiles lets werewolf Malia out of her chains, trusting that she won't hurt him, suggests to me they are practicing safe consensual sex too. As for consent issues in their first hook up, I think the writers were going for a "seeking comfort in each other" scenario and not considering that fans would see it as so unhealthy. Edited October 11, 2014 by Yitzhak 3 Link to comment
ElleryAnne October 11, 2014 Share October 11, 2014 But Stiles's sexual curiosity is often played for laughs on the show. I'm not saying it's impossible for the show to include humor in portraying someone discovering or dealing with his sexuality. But it's one thing to show bi-curiosity in a way that's humorous. That's the impression they seemed to be going for in the early seasons, since Jeff claimed the hints of possible bisexuality were intentional. But if instead they're doing it with NO intent to portray Stiles as anything but straight, then the hints have a different tone. In the first instance, it's Stiles being bi-curious. In the second instance, it's "oh, no, Stiles wouldn't be interested in guys. How ridiculous!" In the first instance, the humor pokes fun at Stiles. In the second, it pokes fun at the concept. That's when it becomes offensive to some people. It's like if someone wears blackface to a Halloween party. Some people see it as humor. Others are offended with good reason. Humor is subjective, and people who don't like to be on the receiving end of having what they are made fun of aren't automatically humorless. How exactly did Dylan's comment imply that? There's nothing in Dylan's wording that implies either a) that there's been a big rewrite of Stiles sexuality, or b) that Stiles heterosexuality is a bland vanilla type of sexuality. As I said, that's how it came across to me, and I'm not alone in that. The, "oh, that was just a joke" seemed pretty clear. But if he or the show proves me wrong, I'll send him an apology. In fact, I'd love for the show to prove me wrong so I can do exactly that. I don't expect it'll happen, though. That doesn't sound like there was ever a solid plan in place to me. He also said the fan had put him on the spot, which suggests to me that they may only have been toying with the idea and not at all committed to it. Yes, and it was always understood that they might not do anything with it. But again, the reason for the hinting is part of the issue. If the hints were there because they were meant to be taken seriously, fine. If they were there just in case they decided to do something with them or maybe just ignore them or leave them open to interpretation, also fine. If they were there to make fun of the idea of bi-curiosity, less fine. And yeah, it's possible that they could have always meant it to be poking fun at bi-curiosity, and not actually hinting that one of their main characters was potentially bi-sexual. Possibly, the audience would never know the difference, if they didn't explore it any further than that. But Jeff did say it. And maybe he and the cast and the show's PR are their own worst enemies, or maybe they were just always trying to bait the audience with things they didn't intend to follow through on. wanting a slash pairing to be canon is not the same as wanting gay representation on a show. Absolutely true. Which is why I get so tired of people acting as if the two must be the same or tied together. People can have opinions about Stiles' (non)bi-sexuality without their interest being put down to, "oh, they only want Sterek to be real." I know people who are very invested in what they believed Jeff to have been portraying with Stiles but who aren't at all invested in Sterek. And I know people who love Sterek but could care less if Stiles is bi. Yet in discussions, it seems common for people to argue against one by arguing against the other. The antagonistic thing, the slap slap kiss thing is a romantic trope. Which is why I referred to its use in rom-coms. But it's generally only the starting point. It tends to evolve into a caring relationship, not an abusive one. I notice sometimes that people defend Stalia by saying that Sterek would be abusive, but that isn't the case. (It's also not much of a defense of Stalia on any merits of its own.) The most common interpretation of Sterek that I see is one which starts off with the antagonism, then develops into a reluctant alliance (much as it did on the show), then respect and support and friendship and beyond. It's not as if S1 Derek and Stiles represent the relationship that a Sterek romance would evolve into. (And no, I'm not saying that I want one on the show.) Whereas Stalia - which in many ways appears to be Jeff Davis' attempt to write his own version of het Sterek, but based on his misunderstanding of it - did start off with a hodgepodge of abuse and consent issues within the romance itself. I thought the implication of Malia being rough and dominant was exactly why fans claimed Malia's sneaking into Stiles bed at night might be non-consensual. No. "Rough and dominant" isn't the same as non-con or dub-con. Not in the least The dub-con tone of that scene came from Stiles sounding as if he wasn't exactly thrilled that Malia was sneaking in and spooning him and leaving scratch marks. He sounded uncertain and not happy about the situation. If Stiles had sounded like he was bragging that Malia was leaving scratches on him, or seemed thrilled to be engaging in sex - rough or otherwise - it wouldn't have come across as dub-con. It's the fact that he didn't seem at all comfortable with Malia showing up uninvited in his bed at night that led to the understandble dub-con reading of the scene. I think the writers were going for a "seeking comfort in each other" scenario and not considering that fans would see it as so unhealthy. I don't think they were going for comfort (I think was plot-driven in that they needed an insta-bond for Stiles for the Nogitsune stuff that came after, even though it was OOC for Stiles), but I agree they probably didn't expect that fans would recognize it as unhealthy. But therein lies the problem with Jeff's writing in general. 1 Link to comment
Yitzhak October 11, 2014 Share October 11, 2014 (edited) But it's one thing to show bi-curiosity in a way that's humorous. That's the impression they seemed to be going for in the early seasons, since Jeff claimed the hints of possible bisexuality were intentional. But if instead they're doing it with NO intent to portray Stiles as anything but straight, then the hints have a different tone. In the first instance, it's Stiles being bi-curious. In the second instance, it's "oh, no, Stiles wouldn't be interested in guys. How ridiculous!" In the first instance, the humor pokes fun at Stiles. In the second, it pokes fun at the concept. That's when it becomes offensive to some people. Then I guess the reason I'm not offended is because I only see examples of the first instance - Stiles being bi-curious and the humor poking fun at him. Many bi-curious teenagers are simply straight kids open to the idea of experimenting. The show didn't make fun the concept of actual bisexuality in its portrayal of Caitlin and Jeff himself sounded perfectly respectful of bi representation when questioned about it. Also, I just reread the TV Line interview and Dylan doesn't use terms like "joke" or "ridiculous". He only said he didn't think the infamous pause was meaningful. Since it's a print interview, not a video, it's not really fair to presume a certain tone that you don't know is there (also, worth noting in the same interview Dylan states that Malia isn't in the S3 finale. Which she is. Dylan is known to be little dozy in interviews.) I'd say Jeff is the more reliable source, but then I think it's also clear that Jeff teases a lot of ideas that are only vague concepts that he may or may not follow through with. Maybe you think I'm being too charitable but I don't see it as tactical baiting. I think it's just Jeff blurting out half-baked concepts and not expecting fans to pin all their expectations on them. I think it's clumsy and short-sighted more so than manipulative. I get so tired of people acting as if the two must be the same or tied together. I can easily believe some fans don't tie the two things together (though other fans do), but since the media have latched onto referencing Sterek for attention seeking reasons, I don't believe that Stiles could be made canon bi without the media whipping up a storm about Sterek possibilities. And if Jeff really has backed off from the idea, I think that could be why. If Jeff wanted to make queer sexuality a non-issue he's kind of been defeated by the media who would surely link Stiles being bi to a big shipping phenomenon. I think it's a shame, seeing as I kinda like the idea of Stiles/Danny (even as a little comic bi-curious experiment). But there's already so many accusations flying over this issue that I'd say Jeff's in a damned-if-you-do-and-damned-if-you-don't situation. It tends to evolve into a caring relationship, not an abusive one. I notice sometimes that people defend Stalia by saying that Sterek would be abusive, but that isn't the case. Personally I'm just not into the idea of Derek in a sexual relationship with a teenager and not just for statutory rape reasons. In S1 and S2, there's an awful lot of Derek Hale stalking, intimidating, threatening and roughing up teenagers. And worse of all, grooming vulnerable teens into becoming his werewolf betas when he was not (it turns out) capable of taking care of them. Derek may have become less of a thug and a predator in recent seasons (mainly due to his positive relationship with Scott, not Stiles) but given his history, I just don't consider Derek to be a good choice for any teenager's (older) boyfriend. Plus, a lot of Sterek stuff I've seen does seem to emphasize this power imbalance between them with Derek being portrayed as the aggressive hyper masculine Big Bad Wolf to Stiles's defenseless human little Red Riding Hood. Sterek scenarios can be very Yaoi and as such, actually rather heteronormative in their formulas with Stiles being portrayed as far more girlish than he is in canon, either ending up as Derek's damsel in distress or the pack mom. As a Stiles fan, I'd hoped for better fanfic stories about him. I'm not a Stalia fan either so I can't defend that ship too much. I don't find it abusive, just woefully underdeveloped for a ship that was rushed into too quickly. I think Shelley is good and there's potential there, but it's not really been realized in the mess of S4. But I don't buy into the idea that Stalia is Jeff's het!Sterek. I think giving Stiles a werewolf girlfriend was always intended as a role reversal on the Scott/Allison ship and it's something the writers had planned since they introduced Erica as a possible Stiles love interest. Edited October 11, 2014 by Yitzhak 1 Link to comment
ElleryAnne October 12, 2014 Share October 12, 2014 (edited) I don't believe that Stiles could be made canon bi without the media whipping up a storm about Sterek possibilities. And if Jeff really has backed off from the idea, I think that could be why. If Jeff wanted to make queer sexuality a non-issue he's kind of been defeated by the media who would surely link Stiles being bi to a big shipping phenomenon. Oh, I don't doubt the media would have a field day with it. And while I don't want Jeff to attempt canon Sterek, I don't think fear of the media going crazy over it would be a reason to backtrack on anything he's hinted at regarding Stiles' possible bisexuality. If anything, it would probably earn him some very positive media exposure and I'm sure he knows it. And this is a guy, after all, who teased fans regarding Sterek in the past. He's not going to shy away from making Stiles bi out of fear that the media would stir Sterek speculation. (Frankly, after the abysmal ratings and reviews he saw for S4 in general, I wouldn't be surprised if he was trying to figure out how to do some damage control regarding the show's reputation for queer-positive representation. Not that that's the only reason the show sank like a stone, but it's one reason he lost segments of the fanbase. But it's probably too late to get them back.) I'd say Jeff's in a damned-if-you-do-and-damned-if-you-don't situation. Or Jeff could choose a fuck-'em-all stance and do what he wants, and let the media be damned. Which it's entirely possible he's already doing, and his talk about this show being different was nothing but pipe dreams and queerbaiting all along. Or, to give him the benefit of some doubt, he's backing off now because of pressure from people who sign his paycheck. I'm not sure we'll ever know why or if he changed directions with the character of Stiles. Or with the show in general, for that matter. Personally I'm just not into the idea of Derek in a sexual relationship with a teenager and not just for statutory rape reasons. In S1 and S2, there's an awful lot of Derek Hale stalking, intimidating, threatening and roughing up teenagers. And I totally respect that. I think it's just as valid to have concerns about problems with potential Sterek intimidation, etc., just as it is to be concerned with the consent issues and other problems present in Stalia. For that matter, it's just as valid to hate them for no reason at all. In no way would I insist that someone has to ship Sterek. I may try sometimes to present the pros of the relationship because I think it's not always understood or represented clearly by people who don't ship it, but I don't expect everyone to get on board. I just don't like to see it misrepresented. I don't buy into the idea that Stalia is Jeff's het!Sterek. I think giving Stiles a werewolf girlfriend was always intended as a role reversal on the Scott/Allison ship and it's something the writers had planned since they introduced Erica as a possible Stiles love interest. Actually, Jeff has said in the past that it was Erica and Boyd who were supposed to have a romance. But Cora, and later Malia, were brought on board as love interests for Stiles, but given many qualities very similar to Derek except for gender. And both were brought into the story after JD heard about Sterek (supposedly that was not until after S2 was filmed), but Erica was before that. If JD can be believed about when he learned about the Sterek fandom, he seems to have been inspired to create a rough-around-the-edges girl Halewolf as a Stiles LI sometime after. And he apparently was so enamored of the idea that when Cora's actress left, he set about throwing together another one. So even though a lot of things about both girls make no sense in the overall story - and even though creating a love interest for Stiles, even a werewolf one, could have been done by creating a girl with any other kind of personality and as anything other than a Hale - JD went the route he did. Twice. Could be he was just incredibly lazy in character creation, or it could be that he specifically wanted the girl to be more like Derek than just in having supernatural abilities. I strongly suspect the latter (though I wouldn't entirely shrug off the possibility that Jeff is just that bad a writer that he ran out of ideas for how to make characters unique.) I think he mistakenly thought he could capture the kind of interest in a het equivalent to Sterek, but it didn't work. Edited October 12, 2014 by ElleryAnne Link to comment
Yitzhak October 12, 2014 Share October 12, 2014 (edited) Actually, Jeff has said in the past that it was Erica and Boyd who were supposed to have a romance. But Cora, and later Malia, were brought on board as love interests for Stiles, but given many qualities very similar to Derek except for gender. The writers might have changed their minds about Erica being a love interest for Boyd rather than Stiles, but earlier in S2 there's definitely set up for possible Stiles/Erica shipping with Erica revealing her unrequited crush on Stiles. Considering Cora was very clearly brought in as Erica's replacement, we do see a pattern of Stiles/werewolf girl pairings that predates Jeff's awareness of Sterek. I think if they had gotten to do Stiles/Cora then I'd have agreed with you. Cora was a badly conceived character with very little personality to speak of, but she seemed quite explicitly intended to be a younger female version of Derek. That said it could be argued that Stiles/Cora would have been an age-appropriate version of Sterek as well as a het version. I'm really relieved to have dodged the Stiles/Cora bullet to be honest. But Malia I don't see as being very similar to Derek at all. She's a Hale werewolf yes, but that's where the comparison ends for me. Malia doesn't insult or antagonize Stiles, she really seems to look up him. And despite her own childhood tragedy, Malia isn't an angry or grumpy character. She's rather more warm, plucky and pragmatic. I do think that Stiles/Malia is modeled on another ship though - that being the Xander/Anya ship from later seasons Buffy. Jeff routinely borrows stories and character/ship types from Buffy (Scott/Liam are clearly his own version of the Buffy/Dawn sibling story) and so pairing up his sarcastic human boy with a supernatural girl who doesn't understand social norms just seems to be his latest example. The TW writers have openly admitted that Malia's characterization is pretty much stolen from Anya. Or Jeff could choose a fuck-'em-all stance and do what he wants, and let the media be damned. Which it's entirely possible he's already doing, and his talk about this show being different was nothing but pipe dreams and queerbaiting all along. My solution, if I were Jeff, would be this: make Scott bisexual. Posey has already said in interviews he'd be interested in Scott being bi and it would fit in better with the current canon. Scott has already lost his big het ship, Scott/Kira don't have a huge following and a break up could benefit Kira getting more of an individual storyline. Then they could get Scott a boyfriend, be it Danny or maybe even Issac (Jeff hinted in his french interview that Daniel could possibly be back for S5). It'd be one great solution giving fans a major bi character (the lead character even) and the media/fandom not being able to make it a Sterek issue. Edited October 12, 2014 by Yitzhak 2 Link to comment
ElleryAnne October 12, 2014 Share October 12, 2014 The writers might have changed their minds about Erica being a love interest for Boyd rather than Stiles, but earlier in S2 there's definitely set up for possible Stiles/Erica shipping with Erica revealing her unrequited crush on Stiles. But that's an assumption based on an unrequited crush in the show, much like Stydia - which we also don't know is part of Jeff's long-term plan. (And I'm not panning Stydia fans here. Ship away happily, please.) But I'm going by Jeff's own words, which don't indicate that he was going to put Stiles with Erica, but rather Erica with Boyd. It was Cora, and now Malia, who were brought in for Stiles specifically. I think if they had gotten to do Stiles/Cora then I'd have agreed with you. Cora was a badly conceived character with very little personality to speak of, but she seemed quite explicitly intended to be a younger female version of Derek. That said it could be argued that Stiles/Cora would have been an age-appropriate version of Sterek as well as a het version. I'm really relieved to have dodged the Stiles/Cora bullet to be honest. Oh, I'm extremely glad they didn't have time to get around to Stiles/Cora, as well. Cora was just about as poorly written as Malia. I think it's ridiculous that Jeff is so committed to an idea that keeps hitting stumbling blocks, though, and trying to force the story line into happening, so much so that he just slapped together a substitute character with Malia in order to continue it. Honestly, it would have made more sense to re-cast. It's not like Cora had made enough impression on anyone that they would have a problem with a new actress. And that way they could have continued to flesh out one character, rather than compound the problem by creating a second Hale-wolf-girl and forcing the story again. But Malia I don't see as being very similar to Derek at all. She's a Hale werewolf yes, but that's where the comparison ends for me. Malia doesn't insult or antagonize Stiles, she really seems to look up him. And despite her own childhood tragedy, Malia isn't an angry or grumpy character. She's rather more warm, plucky and pragmatic. Warm? With the exception of Stiles, she was willing to leave people behind to die, even when they're friends of his. Plucky? How? She'll put up a fight, but so will Derek. (Not that he'll usually win.) I'll give you that she's pragmatic, but so is Derek. They're both surly and suspicious of people and have anger issues. But they both know how to play up their attractiveness and sexuality to distract others. Derek was physically rough with Stiles, and Malia is physically rough with him. (Shelley Hennig even stated in an interview that Malia was as likely to punch Stiles as kiss him, so this doesn't just involve the scratches.) Both Derek and Malia have backstories in which they feel guilty for the deaths of multiple family members. They're presented as moody and mysterious through camera angles. That's in addition to them being werecreatures and Hales. (Incidentally, Cora seemed on her way to having a lot of the same characteristics.) He can claim to borrow from all kinds of things, but the parallels are there to Sterek. My guess, given their savvy with social media, is that they're well aware of the fact that fans noticed it, hence the willingness to claim they stole from another show. My solution, if I were Jeff, would be this: make Scott bisexual. I wouldn't mind personally if they went that route, but I don't know if it would help them at this point. A lot of fans are disappointed in Jeff and the show and how poorly relationships were done in S4 and some fans won't be back for S5 anyway. And some will claim that making Scott bi would be a desperate attempt at damage control - both for Jeff's comments and Posey's. It will look like that. But if Isaac comes back (which I hadn't heard, so this is just spec), then I think there could be an interesting relationship story there. I'd stick around for it. Link to comment
Bruinsfan October 13, 2014 Share October 13, 2014 I think aside from the possible coronaries it would give network execs to have a male lead character suddenly revealed as queer, that would also be extremely out of character for Scott, who's never shown anything I could interpret as interest in another guy and conversely has behaved in far too laid-back a fashion in certain situations (dancing with Danny to avoid being thrown out of the formal, having a drink bought for him at a gay bar) for him to be credible as deeply closeted. However, if Isaac were to come back I think enough groundwork was laid in his idolization of Scott that they could make him bisexual without violating characterization or running into the problems of such a big shake-up for a lead. (And, as they say, how ya gonna keep 'em down on the farm after they've seen Paree?) Link to comment
galax-arena October 14, 2014 Share October 14, 2014 (edited) that would also be extremely out of character for Scott, who's never shown anything I could interpret as interest in another guy and conversely has behaved in far too laid-back a fashion in certain situations (dancing with Danny to avoid being thrown out of the formal, having a drink bought for him at a gay bar) for him to be credible as deeply closeted. I don't know, Degrassi managed to pull this off with Miles. It could be something that Scott just gradually comes to realize - a new-ish character could be his closet key, perhaps? - but has no angst over. I might have mentioned this elsewhere on the forum, but I've noticed that it's relatively rare for a male character who wasn't envisioned as being gay/bi from the outset to develop a same-sex attraction later on. Not that it never happens - e.g. the aforementioned Miles on Degrassi - but when you compare it to the number of female characters who are initially into men before discovering women, the difference is pretty stark. Taking this into consideration, yeah, it's pretty unlikely that someone as girl-crazy as Scott will be written as bi unless it's something that Jeff Davis had in mind from the beginning. Which... maybe he has and he's trolling us all in the meantime. Well played, Jeff Davis. Edited October 14, 2014 by galax-arena Link to comment
Snarkette October 16, 2014 Share October 16, 2014 It suddenly occurs to me that with Malia-Stiles all happening, that we might be privileged to a Sheriff / Peter encounter talking about their kids and the relationship. Without guns. For some reason this amuses me a lot. Link to comment
Yitzhak October 16, 2014 Share October 16, 2014 (edited) It suddenly occurs to me that with Malia-Stiles all happening, that we might be privileged to a Sheriff / Peter encounter talking about their kids and the relationship. Without guns. For some reason this amuses me a lot. That's something I'd like to see, but the whole Peter/Malia family connection ended up a big non-event in S4. After all the false jeopardy suggesting that Peter was going to manipulate Malia and mess with her head, Malia took no interest in her dad and he barely took any interest in her either. Ian Bowen seems to have some interesting headcanons about what Peter thinks about his daughter dating Stiles but we're not getting any of that onscreen. But as you say, there's good potential there. In the early seasons they had Scott, a werewolf, dating the daughter of a great hunter family, and now they have Stiles a human, dating the daughter of a great werewolf family, but they aren't really DOING anything with it. But Sheriff and Peter talking about their kids dating is something I'd love to see too. Edited October 16, 2014 by Yitzhak 1 Link to comment
Yitzhak October 18, 2014 Share October 18, 2014 (edited) that would also be extremely out of character for Scott, who's never shown anything I could interpret as interest in another guy I missed this post earlier. I just wanted to say that Scott has had many strong homosocial bonds on the show - with Stiles, with Derek, with Issac and most recently with Liam. By comparison, Stiles only has one close male bond with Scott and his only other close friendship is with Lydia. I can't see why Scott being bisexual would be any more or less out of character than Stiles being bi. Both boys are portrayed as being queer friendly and comfortable with showing affection for other guys. Both of them began the series obsessively in love with one girl (Allison and Lydia) and eventually moved on with less obsessive relationships with another girl (Kira and Malia). Neither have shown a romantic interest in guys and neither is likely to be a closet case. Though it could be said that since they are both still not that experienced so they could still experiment and learn new things about their sexuality. I think if they wanted to go with having a main character revealed as bi then Scott would be a much bolder choice - the quirky sidekick being queer is really nothing new (Buffy did it 15 years ago) but giving that story to the lead hero is far less common. Edited October 18, 2014 by Yitzhak Link to comment
lion10 October 18, 2014 Share October 18, 2014 I missed this post earlier. I just wanted to say that Scott has had many strong homosocial bonds on the show - with Stiles, with Derek, with Issac and most recently with Liam. But those are called friendships. Almost everyone on the planet has strong homosocial bonds but only a small fraction identify as bisexual. And of those relationships listed, the only one where there's been a hint of something romantic was between Scott and Isaac and I always interpreted that as being one directional from Isaac to Scott. YMMV 1 Link to comment
caseylane October 18, 2014 Author Share October 18, 2014 The only one where there's been a hint of something romantic was between Scott and Isaac and I always interpreted that as being one directional from Isaac to Scott. YMMV Yep. In fact I thought that was what they were going for it seemed so blantant. I thought Isaac was going to have the big ol' gay crush on Scott with Scott being totally clueless. Then they turned around and had Isaac fall for Alison, which I feel happened because they were a RL couple. 1 Link to comment
Yitzhak October 18, 2014 Share October 18, 2014 (edited) But those are called friendships. Almost everyone on the planet has strong homosocial bonds but only a small fraction identify as bisexual. And yet if you are going to develop a seemingly het character into a bi character it helps if they have close male relationships that could turn into something more. I was arguing that Scott had more opportunities for a male love interest than Stiles. Pretty much all of the younger male werewolves seem to have developed man crushes on Scott - Isaac, Derek, the twins, Liam and most recently Brett. I guess it's the Alpha thing with Scott being the hot girl who everybody wants. And yes, Scott seems clueless about being the hot girl but that doesn't necessarily mean that Scott wouldn't be open to a guy with a crush on him. Edited October 18, 2014 by Yitzhak Link to comment
ElleryAnne October 18, 2014 Share October 18, 2014 And yet if you are going to develop a seemingly het character into a bi character it helps if they have close male relationships that could turn into something more. I don't think that's a requirement. Sexual attraction doesn't have to stem from friendship. It's only one possible way to approach the story. Pretty much all of the younger male werewolves seem to have developed man crushes on Scott - Isaac, Derek, the twins, Liam and most recently Brett. They seem to respect him, but I don't think there's evidence of crushes with anyone except Isaac. I've never seen anything to imply that either Derek or the twins were ever crushing on Scott, and Liam doesn't seem to, either. Brett, maybe (?), but that seemed more like idolizing than crushing. But I can see how, by a stretch, that could be taken as a crush. Link to comment
Gwen-Stacys November 13, 2014 Share November 13, 2014 They seem to respect him, but I don't think there's evidence of crushes with anyone except Isaac. I've never seen anything to imply that either Derek or the twins were ever crushing on Scott, and Liam doesn't seem to, either. Brett, maybe (?), but that seemed more like idolizing than crushing. But I can see how, by a stretch, that could be taken as a crush. In the vein of her point, I think her point is that Scott has the oppertunity to have a more organic journey into becoming a bisexual male. He's a very open person and people naturally flock to him. Fans of the Sterek pairing tend to morph Derek's loyalty and protectiveness towards Scott and try to shift it onto Stiles. If Derek were to randomnly fall for a guy, it would be Scott. Scott the person he sat next to and stayed with in Deaton's veterinary hospital after he'd been injured; the person he stalked all day long because he thought he was in trouble (season 3 with the Oni); the only person who, outside of Brayden and Peter, expressed a concern about him losing his abilities. Long story short, it would be a more organic coming out story/journey (all without taking the focus off of the show's main protagonist, as online people tend to forget that he is) if Derek Hale, president of the Scott McCall fanclub, fell in love with Scott. Not that I want any of that to happen at all! I still maintain that Derek (and Scott, and Styles) are pretty hetero. They could maybe be bisexual, but hetero-romantic? But mostly straight as that is where their interests lie. 2 Link to comment
Yitzhak November 13, 2014 Share November 13, 2014 If Derek were to randomly fall for a guy, it would be Scott. Scott the person he sat next to and stayed with in Deaton's veterinary hospital after he'd been injured; the person he stalked all day long because he thought he was in trouble (season 3 with the Oni); the only person who, outside of Brayden and Peter, expressed a concern about him losing his abilities. ITA. Scott/Derek are a much much better example of a relationship that begins as antagonistic and evolves into a deep mutual trust and friendship. Stiles/Derek by comparison are simply a personality clash that offers good comic relief. Not saying that Stiles and Derek haven't had the odd bonding moment here and there but Scott and Derek have had soooo many more. Just as Scott has had bonding moments with a lot of different male characters - male characters who all seem to adore Scott. Stiles by comparison mostly has bonding moments with Scott, his dad and a bunch of girl characters. So yes that's what I meant. Scott has better options for male friendships that develop into something more. 2 Link to comment
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