Maximum Taco
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But isn't there at least something about her, and perhaps other but not necessarily all Targaryens -- hence "I am the dragon" -- that prevented her from burning to death when the eggs hatched?
After all, Mirri Maz WhatsHerFace went up like a human torch.
Mirri Maz Duur did go up like a human torch. But she was also bound to the pyre before it started burning. In fact Mirri died before the eggs could hatch ("Only death can pay for life") Dany didn't walk in until after the eggs started hatching.
So it could be a combination of her Targaryen blood and the eggs hatching. Or it could just be that she entered the fire at the right time, who knows? All that we know for sure is that she is not immune to fire all by herself. She needed the eggs to hatch or she would've died in the fire. And if she wants to survive another fire she'll need another source of magic.
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I've not see this speculated anywhere else, but if the R+L=J theory is correct, could the following scenario make sense?
After the Night Watch kills Jon, they would likely burn the body so as to prevent him coming back to life as a wight. IF Jon is truly a Targaryen, couldn't the fire possibly heal him? I imagine a scene where the funeral pyre is burning, and all of a sudden Jon gets up and walks out, similar to how Dany just walked out of the flames with the newly hatched dragons. Melisandre would lose her mind explaining to everyone how she saw the prophesy, and Jon would be alive again, although with quite a bit less hair.
Just a thought.
Targaryens aren't immune to or healed by fire. What happened to Dany is not a normal property of a Targaryen (in the books anyway.)
First off fire has never healed anybody in the series. Dany was unharmed by the fire, but it did not heal her. Some Targaryens are also reported to have died by fire, notably Aegon V and Prince Duncan the Small who died in a fire at Summerhall, and Aerion Brightflame who died drinking wildfire (it is possible this just poisoned him instead of actually setting him ablaze though.)
Secondly, GRRM has already said that what happened to Dany was a matter of circumstance and magic (specifically the hatching of the eggs), not an attribute she always has. If she jumped into a fire now or at any time before or after the eggs hatched, she'd burn the same as anybody else. It was a one time deal, linked to the magic released when the eggs hatched, she (and every other Targaryen) are not immune to fire under normal circumstances. This is evidenced by the fact that she does receive burns from Drogon's flames in ADwD. There may however be some degree of heat resistance (e.g. Dany likes to take baths that some say are too hot. She might get minor burns or blisters from a fire that could kill or maim a non Targaryen etc.) but it is not a full immunity, and it definitely does not heal.
Thirdly we've seen Jon burned himself when he killed the Wight in Mormont's chambers. So even if he is a Targaryen (which seems pretty likely) he absolutely does not have a fire immunity.
So unless Jon's pyre also results in the hatching of dragons, it will be just a fire, and he will burn the same as anybody else.
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I actually don't think Rickon really exists anymore, but even if he does, who is ever going to believe him? By the time he comes back he'll look like Tormund Giantsbane, IF he comes back. Nobody's going to look at him and go, "oh, wow, that must be Rickon Stark." Even if he returns in the company of a giant black wolf, or wearing an immense black wolf-skin cloak. Who's still alive that would know him? And how will they recognize him once he's singing baritone?
I don't think you can downplay the importance of the wolf. Direwolves haven't been seen south of the wall for 200 years, the only known species being the ones in the company of the Stark children. Its not like they are easy to just drum up and tame. Robb was well known to fight with a giant wolf by his side, so not only is it the Stark sigil, but Robb has created a legend around them as well.
If Rickon (or another boy who looks like Rickon, or even another boy with Tully colouring) surfaces with a giant black wolf at his side it's going to make a pretty strong case for him among the Northeners. The smallfolk want a story, and that's a pretty good one.
As for the nobility, with all the ill will going towards the Boltons (their only true allies seem to be the Freys), the Northeners will probably be eager to latch onto anything else, a son of Ned Stark is a nice life line to grab onto. So it's not like the Boltons are creating a stable rule with happy subordinates. The Northern lords will want to believe Rickon is the real deal.
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The problem, I think, with turning Jon's death into a cliffhanger is that you lose the suspense once the actor is confirmed for the next season. I think they could have a lot of fun with making the Unsullied wait and speculate and squirm, but logistically it's not easy.
OTOH, they can possibly bring Jon back in such a way that leaves ambiguity and questions about whether he's still truly Jon or whether something went awry, or something of the sort. That still invites speculation and squirming and "OMG WAT" sorts of moments without forcing them to hide the fact that Kit Harrington is going to still be around the next season.
You don't really lose the suspense.
Frequently when a GoT actor dies, they do actually make an appearence in the next episode as a corpse (or severed head) and thusly can still make the opening credits. So even if he's confirmed for the next season, it doesn't necessarily mean he will be alive, there could be a funeral pyre sequence in episode 1 of the next season.
But the problem would be in keeping Harrington on contract. If they are going to permanently kill him next season, it makes more sense to wrap up all his appearences next season and then not have to pay him for the following season.
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I was sure that "P.B." would turn out to be Princess Bubblegum.
But it wasn't PB, it was BP.
Also Bubblegum is like a bazillion years old (despite her claims to be 19). Any diary that she had written in her (actual) teen years probably would've decomposed entirely.
Anyway, yeah that was weird.
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I am older I thought of the Fredrick Forsyth book and Christopher Walken movie The Dogs of War. Not to mention Shakespeare's Julius Caesar:
Think of it like she was a suicide bomber. Nu Battlestar Gallatica did a similar thing. She might not win, but neither will the other guy. Also losing an eye gives her more leadership credentials when she is thrown back into the Fish Tank dungeon, She is not just ordering the preemptive killings of other victims but she has shared in the risk.
That's fair, if there was a reason not to gouge her other eye out and/or kill her.
They were perfectly happy to throw her down there eyeless, and see how long she lasted. How does gouging her own eye out change that?
As far as I can see it doesn't. She's more trouble than she's worth. Why would they even put her back in the basement with her single eye? Why wouldn't they gouge her other eye out and chop off her hands (or something else equally unpleasant) and throw her back there. Or make it even cleaner and just kill her and throw her corpse back down there to teach everyone down there what happens when you try to negotiate.
Fish has absolutely no leverage here.
Suicide bombers are completely different, they are willing to sacrifice themselves to achieve their goal. Their goal is to kill people and strapping a bomb to themselves and blowing those people up achieves that goal. How does gouging her own eye out contribute to Fish's goal? It shouldn't, logically, they should just do what they were going to do in the first place and gouge her other eye out.
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I'm looking forward to the scene where they have a client who wants her arms.
This could easily devolve into a Monty Python Black Knight scenario.
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Fish Mooney has absolutely no logic in her actions. How is gouging out your own eye a legitimate option when their whole plan was to blind you and leave you in the basement?
I guess you robbed them of a little profit they might get from selling the eyes, but they can still gouge out the other one and leave you in the basement blind and helpless like they planned on doing before.
Are they just gonna forget about taking the other eye, cause they can't sell it? I wouldn't, in fact as further punishment I'd use the spoon to remove her other eye instead of doing it surgically like I'm sure they would've if they planned on selling them as transplants. Or they could just murder her straight up. She's clearly more trouble then her eyes were worth, and now they are worth nothing.
This storyline makes no sense.
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She wasn't in the Original, but I think the Main Five Martin originally envisioned has now become the Main Six. And whatever "hints" there were for that in the books, I certainly haven't seen it in on the show.
There was supposed to be a time skip in the original story too. Where all the young kids aged up.
If Arya was supposed to have storylines that were more suited to an "aged up" Arya, GRRM may have transferred that part of Arya's story to Sansa.
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Maybe Rickon is secretly brilliant. :)
He did want everybody to stay at home in Winterfell.
All those Starks would probably still be alive if Rickon was in charge.
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OK now I'm convinced. Susan is an android, who maybe doesn't know it? Or does but not in those terms, and her question about gills to Finn before was because he looked like the rest and they have gills. Color me intrigued.
I don't know if she's an android (or gynoid to use the proper term.) I'm leaning more towards some kind of cyborg.
I'm thinking maybe she was a normal human like Finn and she got some kind of cybernetic enhancements. That also might explain why she's so strong.
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I thought they did too, but I'd also thought on the previous occasion they showed it by removing her hat, and she had sort of...gills? on her head. So now they removed her hat and she had whatever cyborg looking thing instead. So this Susan Strong isn't the original Susan Strong? She's an android replacement? Or something. I'm making this up now. I don't remember the earlier episode vividly, but I do think that was an intentional "reveal" of what was on her head this time. We knew she wasn't human, but didn't know what she was and now she appears to be something else.
That is how I remember it, too.
You guys were making me doubt myself so I rewatched the old Susan Strong episodes (there's only 2)
In Season 2's "Susan Strong"
- There is a reveal where all the other Hyooman's take off their hats (cause the Marshmallow Kids set them on fire) and Finn realizes they are all fish people. Susan doesn't remove her hat though (because she ducked under the fire) and Finn says "Susan? What are you?" before Susan runs away.
- Finn asks Jake if he thinks Susan was human or "just another wild animal" and Jake tells him that "We're all wild animals, brother."
In Season 3's "Beautopia"
- Jake is against helping Susan and says that she's a "fish person", but Finn says "We don't know that."
- Susan says they'll swim to Beautopia, and shoves Finn's head under the water. Finn understandably starts drowning and Susan is surprised to learn Finn doesn't have gills. She then says they'll take a boat. So that implies that she can swim underwater, but we still don't see anything under her hat.
- At the end Susan asks Finn to stay and he says "I'm not like you" but then she takes his hand and lets him feel under her hat. Finn is surprised by what he feels (or doesn't feel.)
So yeah, we've never seen Susan without her hat until this episode.
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it reminded me of an Astral Quest. The part where they had to chose seemed to be between a fantasy, a fear/dislike, and the third (not sure how to describe).
The first was their desire.
Lemongrab sees his creator PB finally accepting him
Finn sees a chance to get back with FP
This also might be the reason why Jake couldn't enter the Mountain, because he is, for the most part, content. He's not wrestling with lovelornness/loneliness (like Finn) or parental issues (like Lemongrab.) He'd just see like a sandwich or something that would make his life a little better, but not change it drastically.
I don't think the second is a fear/dislike. Because Finn doesn't dislike Finncakes, and while he's upset that they might get eaten without him he's not fearful of it. I think the second might be a situation that needs the person.
Lemongrab sees Lemonhope ruining his society, which he could stop if he was there.
Finn sees BMO and Jake unable to eat Finncakes without him, because Finn always gets the first Finncake.
The third is the past, perhaps representing an acceptance of oneself.
Lemongrab sees the old scene of himself (himselves?) fighting over Lemonsweets
Finn sees the butterfly which was one of his past lives (as seen in the season 5 episode The Vault)
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No as I recall, this is the first time we've seen Susan without her hat. The other Hyoomans were shown to have gills, but Susan only let Finn feel under her hat in "Beautopia" and we only saw his reaction.
Yeah this is right.
In the Beautopia episode she does imply that she can swim under water without needing to breathe air though, she only decides to take a boat after she realizes Finn can't breathe under water. But they never actually show her without her hat.
Maybe her cybernetics allow her to breathe underwater?
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How old is Batman in relation to Robin? If we're possibly going to see Robin at the circus, it should be a baby Robin. Not one who could do much trapeze work at this point.
Typically Batman is depicted in his mid-late 20's (maybe early 30's) when Dick Grayson is a teenager. So he's atleast 10 years older, probably more.
So Baby Robin maybe, likely no Robin. John and Mary Grayson on the other hand? They could easily make an appearence. Dick is usually an only child (all comic iterations) but in Batman Forever Dick also has an older brother, Mitchell Grayson, they haven't balked at editing the continuity in this show so they could easily add even more Graysons.
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I think they cuffed him on the spot and totally ignored what he was trying to tell him. If they had listened, they could have just went in the restaurant and asked the customers about the bathroom line, they all must have still be in the pizzeria !!!
I'm not so against them cuffing him on the spot. She very clearly accused him of rape. That's probable cause to arrest someone in most cases. Not enough to charge them but enough to arrest.
But to not walk inside and interview the 4 or 5 people in line for the bathroom? That's ridiculous. As you said they were all clearly still inside the pizzaria.
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Is this info in the world book? (I haven't read it all TBH. I basically skipped around and read the stuff I was really interested in.)
Why was I under the impression that the Lannisters were Andals as opposed to First Men? Entirely possible that I just pulled that out of thin air. Maybe I'm thinking of the Arryns?
It's in a few places.
Since this is a TV thread, I'll reference TV sources. The below is Bluray extra stuff I believe from the Season 1 Blurays.
Skip ahead to 0:50 if you tire of Charles Dance's silky smooth voice.
So as Lord Tywin tells us,
the Lannisters claim descent from the Andals and also Lann the Clever through the female line. Which means a female descendant of Lann married an Andal invader and the Andal (or his son) probably took the Lannister name and inherited the Lordship and Casterly Rock, (maybe by killing all the other Lannisters?) Anyway, since Lann lived during the Age of Heroes, and since he is referenced seperately from the Andals, it is likely that Lann was not an Andal and was one of the First Men. Regardless, it still means that House Lannister has its origins during the Age of Heroes, just like House Stark does.
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Reading the books and extra info, I definitely got more into the idea that there is something special about this supposedly unbroken line of Starks since Bran the Builder. I have yet to get TWOIAF book but I have a feeling that they basically are the Westerosi family in power for longest time.
That is definitely something when we know that all the other Houses are not necessarily the ones who built the place where their seat is (the only other two would be the Arryns with the Eyrie and the Targaryens with Dragonstone) and have not been there nearly as long.
Something must be ensuring the continued Stark leadership in the North. The Boltons and others seem to have attempted many times to take the North from the Starks but it does not seem to stick. I wouldn't be surprised if there was something magical happening there. I definitely think there is more to it than just "Oh yeah, it's the North. They have little infighting just because you know...Winter is Coming"
Seeing as blood literally runs through the sap of the trees in the godswood, there is probably some strong blood magic happening.
The Starks are probably the oldest ruling family in Westeros, arguably the Lannisters could be just as old. Both trace their lineage from the First Men
in the Age of Heroes the Starks claiming descent from Brandon the Builder, the Lannisters from Lann the Clever (through the female line.)
As descendants of the First Men, it's easily possible the Starks could have had some kind of magical contract with the Children.
Especially if Brandon the Builder did get some of his building techniques from the Children as is sometimes suggested
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As an aside, I'm surprised the Iron-born haven't tried invading Ironwrath, seeing as it's on the west side of Westeros, like the Iron Islands and, you know... that iron connection. I realize that Ironwood exists only in the game, but that would have been the cool set-up for a story as well.
The ironborn aren't really in the show in season 4 all that much. Also Ironrath doesn't seem to be near the shore at all, instead being located deep in the Wolfswood. It's already established that the ironborn don't really like venturing too far from the sea.
I think they wanted to keep it a little grounded to the season 4 happenings, just to give everything a bit of context. And to let everyone get a little excited when they see show characters voiced by their own actors.
Ironwood actually exists in the books as well. It's just not mentioned as being a crucial resource like in the game
The crypts beneath Winterfell are remarked to have doors made of ironwood, the Night's Watch deserter is beheaded by Eddard Stark on an ironwood stump, and Tyrion uses an ironwood shield in the Battle of the Green Fork. Ironwoods are remarked to be found in the godswood at Winterfell, the Wolfswood and the Haunted Forest beyond the Wall. Ironwood is said to be a hard black wood in the books.
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Ugh I feel like I keep making all of the wrong choices in this game.
House Forrester is friggin screwed with me making the decisions.
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I would love to meet her awesome father someday. I imagine he's a bit Ned-like in that he recognized that his awkward daughter needed something beyond the usual feminine pursuits. I do wonder who gets Tarth however if she can't inherit. And she's never mentioned a brother. Although wouldn't that be kickass if Brienne had a great brother and she had a less involved relationship with him. A healthy mirror image to Jaime/Cersei.
She has. In AFFC.
Galladon of Tarth, Lord Selwyn's only son, drowned when he was 8 and Brienne was 4. She also had two elder sisters, Arianne and Alysanne, but both died in the cradle.
Brienne is currently the last issue of Lord Selwyn, so if she doesn't inherit, they'll probably go looking for one of Selwyn's reletives to take the Lordship of Evenfall Hall.
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I keep wondering how big the population is in this world. I originally assumed it might be one or two million in Westeros plus maybe a bit less in Essos. But then there's the fact that the Wildlings alone are about a 100 000 strong, in a probably not very densely populated area. Also we got that "beloved by millions" line in the trailer, which indicates that we're presumably talking more about at least 5-10 million overall, if not more. Are there any indications in the books? What's your take on it?
The population of the entire continent has never been actually stated. But George RR Martin has given general analogies to the size of King's Landing and it having a population around 500,000. Oldtown is said to be similar, Lannisport is smaller than those 2 cities, Gulltown smaller still and White Harbor even smaller, but even White Harbor is said to have a year round population of atleast 100,000.
So just in those 5 cities alone there's atleast 1.5 - 2 million people.
Various estimates of Westerosi population are as low as 15 million, and as high as 75 million. However the 75 million estimate is said to be based solely on size of the continent and the population density of Europe in the medieval era. Which may not be accurate as the North, beyond the Wall, the Vale, and Dorne are obviously more sparsely populated than the Westerlands, Reach, Riverlands, Crownlands and Stormlands
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In S1 it's repeatedly said that it's been about 17 years since Robert became king. In s4 during Cersei's stroll with Oberyn, they say Elia and her kids were killed 19 years ago, and Tywin's sack/Jaime's simultaneous kingslaying settled the question of Robert's claim. So the Baratheon dynasty is now 19 instead of 17 years old, meaning at least 2 but not yet three years passed from s1-s4. Ages and an exact timeline of events are indeed very fuzzy. The child actors have definitely all outaged their characters, though.
Are you talking about the conversation in "The First of His Name?"
They don't say it's been 19 years since Elia's death, Cersei says she has been Queen for 19 years. This doesn't actually shed any light on the timeline, because I don't think it's ever stated when Cersei and Robert got married. It still matches up to the "1 Season = 1 Year" if Cersei married Robert 1 year into his reign.
Also I believe in season 4, episode 8 Littlefinger says that it has been 20 years since Robert became king.
So this paints a timeline such as
20 Years Ago (281 AL) - Robert's Rebellion
19 Years Ago (282 AL) - Cersei weds Robert
3 Years Ago (298 AL) - Season 1
2 Years Ago (299 AL) - Season 2
1 Year Ago (300 AL) - Season 3
Present (301 AL) - Season 4
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They aren't consistent with that. Sansa was 13 when the series started, but was only 14 at the end of season 3, for instance.
It's not exact. That's why I said roughly. There are some arguments to explain that too.
In season 1, Sansa was all about being grown up (old enough to marry Joff) and if she had just turned 13 (or was actually 12 and was close to turning 13) she'd be all about reminding everyone of that fact.
On the other hand in season 3 she had just been married off to Tyrion, so even if she had just turned 15 (or was close to turning 15) she'd be more inclined to say she was younger to squick him out a bit in regards to consummation.
Television Vs. Book: Why'd They Make [Spoiler] Such A [Spoiler]?
in Game Of Thrones
Well Beric came back 6 times. Hopefully Jon will only be coming back once, so he shouldn't have nearly as much damage as Beric. Assuming he comes back using the kiss of life method.
I also am expecting some kind of warging to be the solution to Jon's death.