fantique

HalcyonDays, I am still not over her sending the freaking raven with the 18th century version of a text. "Hey babe. Everything is great over here :)" My only response to that is I.Can't.Even... I really want to know what Katrina fans like about her. I only know of one of them (he's not so much as a fan as he is okay with her) and basically he likes her presence just because he doesn't want romantic Ichabbie, which means that it's not really Katrina he likes. I want to know what clicked for people with her because she's just annoying. At least last season there was suspicion and possibilities but now it's just that she's both dishonest and stupid. I need to rationalise this because I can't deal with how stupidly this has been handled.

They were making a point. They wanted to avoid setting Ichabbie up as a romantic pairing. That doesn't necessarily mean that the particular point was meant to hurt viewers. That would be dumb. They just didn't think that everyone would be so against seeing the Cranes' love. They thought they could sell it. IMO, I get that shippers are often disappointed when the show they are watching doesn't want to acknowledge the pairing they like but saying that the writers have it out for them is a bit extreme. I think they didn't want to come off as teases, by playing into the chemistry but then have him waxing poetry about his love Katrina. I think those writers are more clueless than carrying some agenda against Abbie/Nicole, they just don't realise our perspective: It feels like they are sticking their head in the sand and don't realise that their bread and butter is the partnership. Keep in mind that they had to restructure their second season because Abbie had to be rescued from Purgatory in the premiere. Ironically, I think that if she had been in Purgatory until say episode 6, they would have been forced to put as much of an emotional emphasis with more character moments for her by now because they wouldn't be crazy enough to not split the time evenly between Ichabod and Abbie. I think they're like "what are they talking about? Abbie is here with as much screentime as ever!" when we are talking about doing narrative justice to her character not how many time her face. Now do I think Mark Goffman likes Katrina/Katia? Yes and that's why he's trying to overcompensate for the flaws of the character by creating opportunities. Unfortunately, they keep failing. What I don't think is that he hates Abbie or Nicole. Same for Albert Kim and, if his tweets before Deliverance mean anything, he had a lot of comments on Abbie moments he liked and was complimentary about Nicole's acting. So while they like Katrina, that doesn't mean they hate Abbie. They're just really not seeing clearly because Katrina is the zit on the forehead of the show and they are obsessed with making it go away without realising they are going to create a scar. Because from an objective standpoint, a Katrina fan should be pissed that they are doing this to her character. Really? Demon-baby incubator, baby-obsessed, delusional and incompetent at magic? I should feel sorry for them because they tried, it didn't succeed and they feel like the internet hates them but I am just exasperated at their behaviour and response to valid criticism. They seem clueless when writing women as women. Abbie worked because the character was a blank canvas with generic circumstances that would inform the plot and they just cast whoever they thought was best for the role. So there wasn't any of those weird set ups shows sometimes have when they have a strong female co-lead. They didn't make her cold or bossy and she's not in a position of high authority in the precinct. They introduced her someone who is still in need of a mentor/father figure and Crane, appearing when Corbin died, was supposed to be her mentor in the supernatural business. Jenny was introduced as Sarah Connor wannabe and Lyndie elevated it. Katrina is literally what every sci-fi/fantasy story has for "the enigmatic and powerful" witch that has been imprisoned because of the threat she presented and while I don't mind her acting when she's not breathy-talking, she did not elevate it.

I agree that any romantic drama is silly. They maybe could have sold it if we cared about Katrina but since all she is is an avatar of the perfect fantasy genre woman, it falls short. What I liked in season one was that every bit of backstory tied back in to the 2 mains being Witnesses. It always informed us about how their lives were being manipulated by the big players, be it the Resistance or the witch clans. They should use the supernatural epic plot to further the character development. Each MotW should not only teach a lesson to them as part of the apocalypse fighting team and as human beings with connections, because heroes that fight with something to live for are better. I just want this to be a fun show. I don't need every show I watch to have high levels of angst with people spending time questioning the meaning of life and love while sulking and complaining. I have heard some people say that, while they don't necessarily like Katrina and her increased presence, they prefer this season because it's more serious and the show takes itself more seriously. Not surprised. I liked season 1 better because not every single freaking show has to be trying to win an Emmy. I don't think the whole season sucks but the pacing and the lagging is tiresome and the last 2 episodes left us almost exactly where we were before them except I am aggravated with the Cranes for being fools. Showing Moloch as the cutest chubby baby once again reduced the stakes when they should be super high because MOLOCH IS HERE IN CORPOREAL FORM!!!!! Especially now that I am watching as the show goes on as opposed to binge watching it. It feels like we are not getting to the point or even worse, like there is no point. The show seems to be running in circles as opposed to moving forward. Then again I have never been a fan of "tortured" storylines. They always make it seem like the person is complacent about bad things happening and create a lot of their own problems with remarkable lack of self awareness.

This is frustrating because I don't see how they don't see what at least 80% of the audience sees. Obviously they have a lot in store and maybe their plans align with our wishes for the future. I just don't get how they don't understand the viewers' point of view. I am a strong advocate of a creative team following the path they want to follow because ultimately that's the reason they're there. But when their intentions are not coming across, it's their failure. The SleepyCast for Heartless with Albert Kim for example revealed that we are supposed to see Henry as the enemy but the goal was to also sow this seed of doubt by looking at it from Katrina's perspective and feeling some kind of sympathy for her. The problems for me here: 1) on screen it comes off as we are supposed to embrace Katrina's view of Henry or at least tor, between the 2 arguments, 2) It hinges greatly on us connecting with and caring about the character and not many do, 3) It took a writer expressing it outside of the show for me to understand their intentions.

This intrigues me because you're right! Why do they seem to go out of their way to keep them from being in the same frame? Aside from the voting episode which was obvious why Jenny couldn't be there for that mess to happen. Strange because Katia and Lyndie get along well and are roommates, that could have helped...alas!

Re: KW, yeah that was exactly my stance, that's why I cringed. I wasn't saying it was ok, I was saying I just rolled my eyes and ignored her while thinking she was stupid to do it. The "teaser" coming from her was inappropriate because there is obviously no love lost between her and Ichabbie fans. Using the # to draw their attention upped it from a stupid act to a taunt and that was bad. I liken it to the gaucheness of the writers retweeting one of the "haters" rebuttal tweets because the disapproval is justified and a direct consequence of their own work. A hater is someone who has little to no justification to be displeased at the object of the "hate" (ex: some moron told me they thought Jennifer Lawrence is a bad actress because they don't like the sound of their voice... sigh. To say she just doesn't do it for them would have been enough but they just had to BS) and justification in this case, there is. I liked that in that TV Juriste article she pointed out to TPTB that ignoring and dismissing such a loud voice of the audience that is close to quitting is stupid and not a great colour on them. I also liked that she also pointed out one thing that always bug me. Which is that because of a few jerks verbally attacking the writers instead of civilly expressing their grievances it automatically puts them on the defensive. How is calling those people racist and sexist going to accomplish anything but piss them off and make them unable to be objective about the criticism. I read a lot of the #abbiemillsdeservesbetter tweets and so many people were elegant and graceful in their discontent and it's too bad the writers were not exposed to only that. Re: OJ, well... I guess he can't always be 100%, it's good that he apologised though. We all say and do dumb things in the spur of the moment. The fact that he recognised that was a bad call is good. I really liked that he addressed it as well, instead of deleting and sticking his head in the sand. Ugh I found an article that covered it... It was a rape joke. Ugh, that is So.Much.Worse than the use of the p-word to me. Wow, I'm glad I didn't see that then because it made me uncomfortable. The apology was good though. If it was already covered on the thread I am not going to link anything because

Oh yeah I definitely don't think it's a valid excuse for S3 but I think they meant that's the reason why her story wasn't as compelling for the first 2 seasons and hence people didn't like her. I don't think that's it because I really like Iris in the flash and she's out of the loop but she's shown to be a nice person who cares about Barry. And obviously coming into the new season we carry the feelings from the previous one. Their problem is that people would call them out on restarting the Laurel path without addressing the past problems if they wrote her without the remnants of the bad parts. Hence the bitchy behaviour that gets called out on, they want to say we know that's a bad thing and we want to own up to it. It's not fully working but I get where they're going with this. I actually was so over S1-2 Laurel that I wouldn't have minded that she seemed like a new person just because there is no redeeming the genuinely awful person that she was then. I could have forgiven and forgotten but they reminded me why I didn't like her instead.

Oh yeah, I remember that tweet. I remember people saying they didn't want to read that kind of thing from her. I wasn't particularly pissed or offended, I just cringed because I knew that was a faux pas. She likes to joke and do/say silly things but yeah... sometimes that crosses the line. Every joke is not appropriate everywhere. It was also stupid of her to use #ichabbie. She shouldn't have done that because that drew their attention. That was dumb. What offensive tweet did Orlando post? I didn't hear about that.

I am frustrated with how vague things that should be established with this show. I'm still confused about that whole bed situation. Because I could have sworn that their dialogue was Felicity saying she bought him flowers because he lives down there, he responds with "you should've bought me a bed" and she says "You sleep on the floor". Because now it seems canon she bought him a bed. Also I know people said that's what closed caption had but in my experience it has not exactly been super reliable. And the fact that people had to turn on the CC to get what's happening is also a problem. I also think SA saying Oliver has like 4 mil now just means that broke for a billionaire is still enough to keep the Arrow operation running and I think that's where that money is going. The fact that we need him saying that in an interview is annoying. It should have been explained before since there are multiple possible scenarios. That's a plot hole.

In heels always equals bonus points. Especially because I can imagine her thinking "Ugh... worst day ever to wear heels!" I noticed it too! She also has her hair down a lot more than last season. Before, hair down meant dressing up or special occasion and now it seems to be more aligned with her professional life and Ray.

I just thought of something when reading the episode thread for 3x06. Laurel says "I am not a part of your team. I don't work for you!" Does that mean that she equates being part of Team Arrow as being a subordinate to Oliver? That might explain her attitude when in the lair. In a way that reflects badly on her, because even if they were just his employees that doesn't mean she shouldn't respect them, but it kind of does. Obviously that shows how obtuse she is because it's been more than a year since we all know from the dynamic and then from Oliver's mouth that he sees them as his partners. In my head now, I imagine the 5 months were spent with only Oliver interacting with her for the info and her rarely seeing the others. That frustrates me because I feel like even the writers don't know what happened during those 5 months in general. It seems all they were thinking was "Ok, so we open like this..." I always find it more effective when the writers have their own idea of what goes on in the everyday life of their main characters and choose certain parts to be pushed to the front for narration. Also I think that when the writers mention the not in on the secret thing, they mean that because it's not an aspect that interests them, they were not able to come up with a lot of things to do because they did not enjoy writing the out of the loopers' stories. I think it worked with Moira and Thea the relevance is they are Oliver's family but with Laurel she literally only had Lance. Sara later but we saw Sara more with Oliver.

This episode was ok-ish for me. I find it's too bad that for a seemingly character focused episode, some characters were acting well...OOC. That betrayed the plot heavy agenda in the writing. I thought Oliver was a dunderhead in this episode outside of Roy but at least he still felt in character. I think there is this weird sense of unease because at this point it feels more like I am watching a pitch for a story (there is too much set up and not enough follow through) as opposed to watching a story actually being told. I hate the Sara murder mystery because to me the killer doesn't matter. That's why it could have been interesting if Roy did kill Sara, at least from a character stand point although now I am glad they didn't go there because apparently that would've turned everyone into trigger happy idiots for longer than an episode. Right now, it just means that a baddie killed Sara which is not only not a surprise but that's what we always knew was in store for her. She lived a dangerous life. I felt for the characters but it feels like they are moving on from their grief so the emotional impact is also. I don't like that there was a lot of jumping the gun. I liked that we saw Oliver and Roy's relationship develop because I think both characters are more likeable when allowed to hit those emotional beats that are not grr...anger! or always in pain. I thought Laurel was ok and didn't annoy me except when I think about her reasons for learning how to fight. Boxing glove arrow was cute. Cupid left me intrigued. I want her to be batshit crazy and killed Sara in fit of jealous rage just so we can put this stupid plot to rest. That's interesting because I actually feel the exact opposite. I think the writers are finally writing to his strength, which is his emotional connection to others. I wonder if the larger audience feels the same way as you. Not arguing it just surprised me. I actually always took Roy at face value and never saw him as shady. I am gullible though.

@kordi: I guess the way I look at it as given his history, I can understand his hang ups and they are not easy ones to overcome. WRT Thea: I just think that at the end of 3x02, he realised that resigning to die in the cave is not ok. That he is not making things better for himself (which he knew) or for others (which he is just now figuring out). That doesn't mean he will all of a sudden be A-ok to have a mature relationship but that means that he values having stronger bonds with the people who are a part of his life. Starting with his sister is a logical step. Even if he doesn't completely succeed, she's his sister and family is forever. Opening up presents less of a risk to lose her. With Felicity, he doesn't feel right, after she declared being done with the waiting, trying and failing because if they really try and it doesn't work he doesn't just lose a girlfriend, he loses one of his best friends and a partner. He does even try to broach the subject in 3x05 by very obviously implying that he still has feelings for her and she rejects him. She changes the subject and he gets the message that she's not ready to go there again. Moving in with Thea in my mind was about keeping close tabs on her. I think that while he hates the idea of any dependence on Merlyn, he can make sure that by being close to her he can run interference should Merlyn try to contact Thea. Obviously we know they're in cahoots but to him he's protecting someone who doesn't know everything. WRT Laurel/Wildcat: Him being a hypocrite is not new but it has always related to someone close to him being hurt. In the Arrow after show, SA said Sara died 2 weeks ago. That's nothing. He just lost someone he always thought would be able to hold their own. He has associated being a Vigilante with untimely death. He knows how much Sara wanted to protect Laurel. In light of that it would be strange for him to say to Laurel "Oh! Good for you! You're following Sara's path :)!" because he knows that Laurel is not just trying to learn to defend herself, he knows it's about vengeance. He saw her getting bloodthirsty and going after Sara's killer is going after dangerous people. Wildcat to him is someone who is encouraging Laurel on that path. Even though Wildcat himself saw how dangerous it can be and what it can do to people. Oliver does not know the guy and doesn't trust him. I think that he is not so much hung up about killing so much as murder. Diggle has killed people, he thought Wildcat was a deranged murderer and, aside from that, after they realise he's innocent, is also someone encouraging Laurel without knowing the full story and what kind of situation she's trying to get into. I have seen no one on this forum being approving of Laurel's methods. Why shouldn't we expect him to feel the same? The only part where she was right was that using the untrained excuse doesn't work because he didn't want to train her. But even that is actually explainable because the level that she would need to achieve before he deemed her safe would take a lot of time daily for years, so how would that help with Sara's murder? Because that's all she seems to be about, vengeance. Not a hero/vigilante in training like Roy, she seemed to be content with the "You catch 'em, I cook 'em" approach. She literally told him she wants training to go after Sara's murderer. She thinks helping people is taking a bat to a wife-beater while clearly saying she's there on the behalf of the victim. She thinks boxing is enough. Like, are you kidding me? She was surprised when Ted threw in something other than a punch when training. Of course finding out that her idea of training is just boxing a couple hours a day while working is alarming to him because that shows she doesn't understand the gravity of the situation. IDK I guess to me that made sense. Yes, his tone and dismissal of her efforts were not a good way to go about it and it felt too much like he thought she doesn't know what she's doing but the thing is, mansplaining and patronising or not, he is right. She doesn't know what it truly involves at this point. Which is why he went to Wildcat to see if he could persuade Laurel to stop because he himself has seen the effects it can have on one's life. Wow, that's too long. Had too much coffee and rambling at the speed of light here.

I have to say that I like that I can completely understand Oliver's behaviour this season. I know where he's coming from and I feel that the character has his ticks, his bad habits which I will call him out on but i don't feel any of his behaviour is coming out of nowhere. I also think that this is the first time that the Big Bad and a lot of the villains are not tailored to him and don't have a history with him so he doesn't have all that foreknowledge and certainty that he had with the previous seasons and we can see him figuring things out more whereas before it's just that he would reveal things little by little. This season's Oliver is my favourite by far. Yes he repeats some mistakes because of his defence mechanisms but he also is at least realising that his method is not a long term viable solution. I liked him before but it was more that I enjoyed SA's acting and what his character did in the story but now I love Oliver himself. Because I am seeing more genuine bonds forming and I have a clear handle on who he is and he is starting to become. I also love seeing him in civilian clothing and not all businessman or Arrow. I just feel like the walls are down and as an audience member Oliver is letting me in. I liked that he was dark and traumatised at the beginning of Arrow because it was logical he would be closed up with rare moments of lightness but I appreciate the idea that he is not content to wallow and take some masochistic pleasure in torturing himself. I know in GA he is a very sarcastic and witty character and I can see that's where they are taking him. I am so over brooding heroes (Actually I was never into them in the first place, brooding is not a positive adjective people! It literally means pouting and sulking all the time and going over what suck in their own head.) Basically I like him a lot more now. I also like that SA is just as good in a lighter tone scene as in a dark one. Because some actors seem to only pull off the dark and tortured soul thing. I also want to buy into the happiness of a character. It also makes the darker moments more poignant. ETA: Completely shallow note am I the only one finding SA way more attractive this season? I intellectually knew he was good looking before and has a hot body but he just seems more... there is a "je ne sais quoi". ETA2 (responding to myself, ie beginning of insanity): I think he looks better because he smiles more than once every 4 episodes.

Astute observations Starfish35! I like that idea. Also in the 52 comics, I think BC never married GA. Maybe that fit in more with the idea that they are no longer romantically involved That at least means they have a new vision for her and revised from the version they imagined her as when starting the show because that obviously didn't work.

At this point I don't know if it's hilarious or sad. I will settle for laughter, best medicine and all that rubbish. I think it's the writers telling us that the doubt is all part of their clever grand design... Sarcasm. I love your entire post. Marry me please! Can you please write the show? Pretty please? With cherry on top? I am seriously hoping for a better week. I am. This show needs to go back to the good ole times. I am praying really hard that they listen to critics, because critics loved this show last year and it's a shame.

And I love that you did. I think I was trying to explain that there are different things that make us "forgive" certain errors by the show. While I clapped when he did the glove thing because I knew GA fans would be delighted, it's not enough in the good pile for me when compared to the fact that 2 of my favourites seemed to have been abducted by aliens and brainwashed and Oliver was a stupid head. Just like last episode some people couldn't get over how bad the VotW was but I didn't care because his purpose was to tie into Felicity's life. I did appreciate this week though that the case helped to forge more trust between Oliver and Roy because sped up as it may be, I just melt when Oliver is in big bro mode. I just do. I want to have something like that for Laurel. I want to think in an episode, well that wasn't exactly trepidation but Laurel showed that side and I wanted to give her a hug, which I've only felt when she begged Sara not to hate her. I was feeling hopeful for her character and then she became annoying again. Dear Lord give me strength, now I'm terrified that because I liked her this week next I'm going to want to shake her. Also yeah I know it's not all comic book fans who are like that. I compare those to the people who bitched and moaned because Katniss didn't get the mockingjay pin the same way in the movie as in the books. I was like really? That's what you're picking on. Never-freaking-mind. Some people have difficulty understanding that an adaptation is someone trying something different with a beloved work. I always say to those people: "If it was all the same then why the hell would you watch the movie/tv show just read the book/comic and spare yourself and others a migraine".

I'll try to take a stab at it. This is from what I understand and from the what I think the perspective of different people who have reviewed it to be. 1) People who came from the comic books are people who were introduced to the character at a significant point in time and something about the GA/BC comics did it for them. So when they heard about the adaptation into a show, they were excited to see the fully formed characters they loved. Now of course that didn't happen as Arrow is about the before Oliver Queen became the Green Arrow. While there was disappointment, there was still a lot of action component and comic book mentions for them to warm up to this version of OQ. The problem is when we are introduced to Laurel, who the show screams with lit up arrows "She will be BC y'all", she is nothing like the comics' Laurel. Not just that she doesn't have the costume yet but everything else. However because BC is more of a persona anyway, if they could see her doing it for them in the action portion of it and see her kicking ass then it's fine that in this version she's a lawyer who is bitchy and used to be Oliver's girlfriend. I think they also thought that with Laurel the way she was, it would take forever to have BC on the show so all they wanted was her to be BC already. This is further supported by the fact that when Sara appeared as the Canary, a portion of that group had no time for Laurel because they could get their badass Canary somewhere else. If Laurel herself was the reason they liked her, her being BC or not would not affect their liking her. I think that's where the EPs are getting their "oh you'll like her when she's BC" idea from. In their mind, Sara's popularity was due to her being the Canary so once Laurel is the Black Canary, she will be popular too. And they're not necessarily wrong. Because for example last night's episode, which was just ok for me, got a lot of praise consistently when coming from a comic book fan. They were really excited about the boxing glove, Wildcat, etc. Whereas people who are not necessarily into the comic, one of the first things I hear from them is asking if Diggle and Felicity had a lobotomy. 2) People who are Laurel fans, well if they already like her and think she's awesome then all they need is more confirmation that she is a badass, strong woman and when she is BC, everyone else will see what they've been seeing in Laurel even without the costume. To my utter dismay, this will not be enough to make me like her. I have a problem with who she is as a person, not as a superhero. I don't even hate her, I just think she's annoying. She's one of those people who I just don't get because their priorities in life and who they aspire to be is just not anything I find admirable or enviable. I don't want to sit down and know what's inside her head. I am also frustrated because since she is not meant to come off that way, the show is trying to put her in the position of someone that is liked and have her do things that even if I loved her I would be major side eyeing her. I just don't think they can afford to have her behaving that way when she is not generally popular. It also baffles me because I can't see why it narratively makes sense to have her be bitchy and overstepping boundaries at work and in the lair. IT underlines the problems a lot of people have with her. I found her palatable last night because she wasn't !A.N.G.R.Y!, staring at her jacket or trigger happy but again that was when everyone is acting OOC and jumping the gun, why couldn't she be like this last week with the riot or earlier with the wife-beater? Their anvils for her becoming BC are unnecessary because we always knew she would be BC, so her awkward lines like "black, definitely black" and her 10 sec scenes staring at the jacket are stupid and emphasise how stupid and shallow her motivations are. She wants to be Bc because she's angry and wants to be in control of something. If it was about catching Sara's murderer why is she just leaving it to TA and just dropping in occasionally to try and kill the new suspect? They should have scenes with her looking for clues or making a list of searches Felicity could run since doing them officially would alert Lance (another stupid thing). This is a nice transition into what I would like to see for Laurel to be someone I enjoy. First, I want her to be the one to tell Lance about Sara, and I don't want him to coddle her or explain away her unacceptable decision. He should be hurt and then calm down to mourn together because that's always better than mourning alone. I want them to stop her bitchiness and then have a character point out she is behaving like an a-hole since it can be easily solved by her not being a condescending bitch. I want her to have a scene talking about how until she is in a position to change things, she feels the need to work outside the Law because she has seen that there are limitations. Just like Lance did.

This is hilarious. John Campea literally attacks with the "Laurel Problem". It was good.

I'm confused, that was weird... Maybe sleeping on it will help me figure out how I feel about this episode. See you tomorrow.

No problem but um... It's fantique, not fatigue because that would be a sad name :(. As I said in my earlier post, I think it's more likely that they were trying to emphasise that it had Katrina's likeness. I think the hidden desire is that he wants to trust his wife but he.just.can't. And he feels ashamed of that because that means he is not believing in his own spouse. Goes back to his not wanting to "give up".

@phoenics I don't have proper images because I can't use screenshots here but when they show the succubus in front of crane and reveal her outfit, the bodice and the undershirt are teal (which has primarily been an Abbie colour, she and Crane are both the only people to have a lot of blue-adjacent colours because I remember in an interview she mentioned not wanting anyone to wear full on blue because it's a hopeful colour. Katrina wears a lot of black, greys and greens) like Abbie's t-shirt in the next scene when they very heavily point the camera on both Katrina and Abbie's tops. It could 2 things here, either they want his doubt of Katrina to be manifested through him having a subconscious desire (romantic or not) for Abbie and their partnership (represented by teal) or they really wanted to ram it home that the succubus was very obviously copying Katrina and not Abbie (this is more likely). I do think that they have an idea of them being together later as endgame, which I think I will be fine with. Sometimes I think we forget that it's the 21st episode in a show that has the ambition of lasting "7 years of tribulations". They have to write for the now though so I don't begrudge them for not addressing the leads' chemistry as a romantic one. I also strongly agree with you on being glad they are not making Abbie a "home-wrecker". I am hoping that they're trying to sell us Katrina they want us to be surprised! or unhappy when she goes dark. Yeah...I am still in my bargaining stage of grief. An interview on Afterbuzz TV with Neil Jackson (Abraham) revealed that Katrina is going to change her look to more underworld like badass around episode 12 and that suggest she is going to be full on fighter for good or evil at some point. I just think that it's not a matter if wanting romantic Ichabbie so much as not wanting Ichatrina. I think their marriage is poisoned and nobody wants to see that. It makes Crane look stupid and delusional. Although in his character's defence, I think that he would be the type of married person who would feel shame in "giving up". Every time there is a sign that he does not feel as strongly as he used to, he stubbornly holds on tighter to his marriage. I also don't need the 2 leads together or with anyone really. I just really like their friendship for now and unless the romantic relationship they're in makes them change from the character I like or has gross implications (like with Hawley), I don't care who they get with. I don't know why the show had to introduce a love interest for Abbie and then give him that awkward history with her sister. What was the point? Just give her a handsome, decent guy with no baggage if you must put her in a relationship. Someone without baggage would at least help us see a more vulnerable side because it will be about him helping her with her issues as opposed to her being the "healer" in that relationship. I just want more Jenny and family time before that though. In theory they should have done ok with Hawley. He came in early (at least earlier than I expected him), they get used to one another and then introduce the idea of attraction but then they blundered with the Jenny factor. It also doesn't help that he seems like a douche which I'm hoping gets changed if he is to be more involved with their group. He was already more palatable when showing self-doubt this week. Honestly, the show can't do romance well so just stick to the cooky premise with self-referential jokes and cop buddy comedy with Abbie and Ichabod. That is way more fun.

If they are given a chance with a 3rd season, I want them to go back to 13 episodes, cut the fat out and have the original showrunners back into the mix. With the new Star Trek in the works and their being execs for Scorpion, a small season is the only way to have them more available for involvement. I want the creative process to be the same as S1, with a fully fleshed out plan from the beginning. This season so far seems to have suffered from a lot of indecision and uncertainty with how to go about certain characters. It was a lot more entrancing when the pace was super fast and I was a ball of "holy****" reactions. Just re-watching multiple times to get all the layers of the story and performances.

Grrr...! I just don't get why romance has to be introduced at all. I don't give a flying monkey about the Cranes marriage as I am not their counsellor and neither is Abbie. Just get back to the ass kicking. I was ok with Katrina in the mix if she evened the balance between Team Evil and Team Witness. If all they are showing me is her fainting and being defeated then just make her go dark and kill her by the end of the season. I just want to have more than one show on TV that has a cool sci-fi/fantasy element that doesn't try to be "grounded" in romance. Show me political conflicts in the past, Abbie's family history and Crane's dealing with the Founding Fathers instead of the token "Benjamin once told me this...". They cast a great BF and don't show him after episode 2. There were a lot of promises of backstories and all I got was that the Cranes are as healthy a family as the freaking Lannisters. I could have told you that before, show. If they are given a chance with a 3rd season, I want them to go back to 13 episodes, cut the fat out and have the original showrunners back into the mix.

I'm right there with you. I also think that's just a rule for everyone. I mean, it's just the idea that 2 sisters seeing this guy naked and having sex with him that just grosses me the hell out. I request the permission to re-use this awesome explanation of BAMF. May I? It's official! I stopped reading fanfic a while ago but I must see an Abbie/Dean fanfic stat. It would make my heart sing. That sucks! She did such a great job to give me a sense of identity of the characters through their wardrobe. I am sad to see her go. That along with original writers leaving AND Kurtzman & Orci no longer being hands on is a damn shame. This is making me feel more and more pessimistic. The saddest part is that it could have been so freaking great. I held on until Deliverance but I am worried you guys.