fantique

Your rage... Beautiful!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOVIN' IT. That's all... Back to lurkdom. (any Skip Beat fans out there? No? *Teary pout*)

Haha! While I believe that is definitely a factor, I do think there is a difference in acting methods taught in the different countries. Although I didn't know Emma Watson was considered anything more than an ok-ish actor. I think her appeal is mostly as a person not an actor. Truer words were never spoken. It just has reached an amazing amount of ridiculous. There needs to be some kind of narrative hurt felt by Ichabod. At this rate, I am half expecting to see both his father and mother resurrected at this point. Just kidding!...Sort of. I also feel for TM and NB, from their interviews they seem to really insist on dissecting the scripts and finding authenticity to be able to play their characters. Now that's gone, there's only so far their headcanon can take them before they admit to themselves this is complete and utter bullshit. They must be thinking "OMG, what the hell is this?" I am actually impressed it hasn't bled through more. While I am now in the "I don't care either way" with the cancellation of the show, I am very sorry when thinking of the crew who works on this show because the show has a great visual feel. The writers of this show need to grow a backbone and make decisions that stick. Just watched the last two episodes in a row and I don't know if I can muster enough energy to care. They couldn't keep Irving dead/en route to Sleepy Hollow for more than an episode. They are now a joke to me. I will never cry/get angry if anyone dies. When someone says they are through with someone else, I will not believe them. They are making sure that I am running out of fucks to give. They need to to something that gives weight to the choices the characters make. Episode 2.12 could have been a great way to either create a real schism between Ichabod and Abbie or Ichabod and Katrina. At this point, I just want the Cranes to be married and have their romance be in the background and I want a real separation/divide between the witnesses. I want them to be really angry, resent each other, try to find their own way and then realise they are stronger as a team and I want it to take more than an episode over a little thing where (usually) Abbie folds yet again. Hell, I want her to make a mistake and go too far in her mission and then have a season arc learning about balance. DO SOMETHING INTERESTING FOR HEAVEN'S SAKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Seriously, pushing the download button felt more effort than was worth to watch these two episodes. I give up. I might watch the rest of the season while travelling for spring break, if I don't sleep on the plane. You will probably see me lurking here ROTFL at some of your hilarious comments and that will be the extent of my involvement.

Fair enough. I understand that people will have different sensibilities than others and I am sure your experience has honed your observation much more than mine. That's the beauty in entertainment isn't it? Everyone finds their niche and can enjoy different things. In fact, I am a very recent TV watcher so I guess I definitely have different expectations for the acting than I would in a movie. On TV, I am a lot more concerned with feeling like I am seeing a real person that is making whatever story they are living relatable... I get super exasperated when I feel like an actor is just walking around with an empty head spewing out lines. I guess my issue is what I call stupid acting which is when you know the actor has no idea what's going on in the larger context of the show and doesn't make any effort to lock their character down. I also ranted a bit because I just hear the word "bad actor/actress" a lot and the same person telling me this will love someone whose performance always seems so disingenuous to me that I can't help but wonder what it is that they qualify a "good" or "bad" acting and is it a discrete measure or a continuous one? I would be interested to know what you don't like about the acting in general? Like do you feel they are not believable as their character? Or that they are not consistent? I would love for you to extend on it in the "What went wrong" thread.

I am answering this here because my main point is about NB. Firstly, I guess that to get my point across, I need to explain how I think about acting. I don't think about acting in terms of range or whatever, acting is a lot more subtle and complex than a lot of people like to think and they love to say someone is a bad actor. To me, that is such a reductive term that doesn't even address the shortcomings of a performance. Are they saying that the actor doesn't look sad when they should? Are they saying the intended message is not being conveyed? That's why I just don't like to rate an acting performance using such arbitrarily polarising terms. 1) I understand the reticence about her portrayal in the first season. It took me a few minutes to get used to her facial expressions and stuff because I thought she was overacting. Then once she started to pile on the sarcasm, I was there. I like that she is the direct, completely readable face type of character and it helped that I then saw interviews with NB and she is soooooo different from Abbie that it made me appreciate what she's doing. I feel like the best way to describe her portrayal is raw; she doesn't try to look attractive to the camera and every thought and emotion can be read on her face. It feels like I can see Abbie think, not Nicole, Abbie. That is the ultimate goal of acting isn't it? Losing oneself and becoming a completely different person with different instincts and tendencies and triggers. 2) While I don't want to underrate TM's performance or his charisma, I don't think it's necessarily to compare his acting with the others' because he has such a different function. It's a lot easier to retain people's attention when you're loud, odd and charmingly quirky. Not saying that it's easier acting, but I am saying that the fruit of said labour are easier pickings because the viewer's attention is captivated more easily. The way I see it, I like to use the Cumberbatch-Freeman duo as reference. BC's Sherlock is only allowed to be as over the top as MF's John Watson is grounded. The more emotionally/morally reliable the viewer perceives John the more they can appreciate and revel in Sherlock utter lack of social graces and tact. When Sherlock does something borderline, for a micro second, I stop and wait for what John will do. If he laughs, then it's Sherlock being quirky, if he's angry then it's Sherlock crossing the line. He is my guideline of what I'm supposed think/feel. I feel the same way about Abbie, I get my cues from her to see if I am getting what I'm supposed to get out of a scene. If I'm feeling irritated and she is amused, i try to see what I missed, if she shows as much irritation then I know it's an intentional plot point as opposed to a miswrite of some sort. 3) The second season was rough for both Abbie and Nicole. For Abbie, the character has had too little development to be given a chance to fail, learn and get back up. For Nicole: In the first half of 2A (except from Mama and that horrendous finale- I admit that the crying scene felt weird but I feel a certain, justifiable, wariness on her part), I just kept being blown away by how much she was giving into each second of her performance. After that, she basically was kind of only given the opportunity to do only reactionary acting. Reaction shots of dumb things the Cranes are doing/saying, trying to let down Hawley without addressing the giant rainbow elephant in the room. It felt very like "Oh right! Abbie is a real person with feelings and opinions other than supporting Crane, we should make sure to address that in non-verbal cues." Even with that crap though, the fact that you could tell what she was thinking at every single moment and that she didn't even need to say anything to get her stance across is the very example of an actor making lemonade out of very sour writing lemons. Both Ichabod and the viewer don't need to ask what she's thinking, and that would not be possible if she was even an "average" actress - I don't like to use this term but I feel like that's how most people look at it. What I mean by average is someone who hasn't learnt or doesn't understand the way humans non-verbally communicate, how to portray that and doesn't have a hold on their own character. Even if they are good at showing and evoking emotional responses, they would have been swallowed up by this meagre narrative and forgotten. 4) I don't have much of a strong opinion on the other actors except for John Noble. I do think they have a great handle on their characters and that helps with the performances. Orlando was so great last season and this season, I could just feel that he was starved for material and he was squeezing every second of screentime but that desperation kind of helped with the character anyway because Irving was in a desperate place. LG was a bit flat when she was first introduced but as soon as she let Jenny be charming and added more dimension (which I think was totally mandated by her and motivated the writers to add to her storyline), I was sold. I have already exposed my hang ups about KW's portrayal and this horse is dead. Whew, that was longer than intended. Sorry if I got too artsy-fartsy about it. Also, disclaimer: I have yet to see the winter premiere, I can't bring myself to.

WORD. Especially the social media bit, I always get annoyed with the levels of entitlement I feel from some fans wrt to performers. They still have the right to be human beings and have their own lives and loved ones to spend time with. More casual and repetitive show promotion is why there are PR departments. Here is an UO; I am getting annoyed at Orlando's continuous mockery of his own show. Now, him doing it once to reassure his fans that he gets their frustration and show objectivity and humility towards work he is a part of was fine by me. However, now it just feels like piling on and it has a hint of bitterness. It makes me wonder if his storyline isolation has to do with some kind of fallout with the showrunners or KW. He used to always talk about Katia and how they were this great theatre troupe and them all being together was the most fun. But yeah... it's definitely not keeping him into my good graces. I expect professionals to have some kind of integrity and solidarity. It feels like he's throwing them under the bus.

I don't know why I love this so much but I shall forever endeavour to write disser-fukcing-tations in my academic career Aww, my story loving soul is confused too!!!! It is just going against the grain here. Hmmm... I don't know if that helps but that's how I have it mapped out in my head. I got it all from the wikipedia article about who wrote what episode etc. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Sleepy_Hollow_episodes#Season_1:_2013.E2.80.9314 Goffman was added to the show after the pilot was in the can and picked up by the network. After he joined in episode 2, I got the sense he had the training wheels on because Kurtzman & Orci knew they wouldn't be as hands on after season 1. All his scripts were co-written in the first season and he sometimes did only the teleplay or the story. I think people link the more independence/influence he has to more Katrina heavy focus. To me, it made sense that the show was just shifting from Abbie's backstory to Ichabod's in order bring balance to the arc of season 1. My thinking is that Season 2 is Goffman's brain child, which is where my problems with the story began, and I keep seeing references to K&O being in not so great terms with FOX so I can only assume they have very little to do with the direction of the show as it stands. Basically season 1, they all made contributions with the executive power probably with K&O while now it's all Goffman. His vision is a problem because the main two are slighted since he has all the lynchpins of the big arc rooted in Katrina's actions. That's what some feel can be traced back all the way to the second half of season 1 where the Jenry storyline began to take root. Now, I see this all as speculation. I personally didn't find it a surprising narrative to follow and was expecting the reveal of a child at one point or another so I don't think that was the ground work for some Katrina takeover but I do think that was Goffman's launchpad to pin basically the whole arc on Katrina. I got confused because, other than a way to make Katrina's story and characterisation central to the A-plot, there is little rhyme or reason to the direction the arc for this season has gone in. My feelings on it are that he just really doesn't know how to write for a genre show. Even when trying to put Katrina at the forefront he makes her weak, weepy and untrustworthy. But at least if he was more interested in telling the witnesses' story and not just Katrina's, some narrative choices could have been avoided. I also don't think he knows how to write a proper teleplay, the pacing on all his episodes was horrendous and I kept getting taken out of the scenes. Very clunky. Intent is a powerful thing, both in writing and in creative endeavours. No matter how much he tries to dress it up, the viewers can feel what story he really wants to tell. It just seems strange to have most of the ramifications in this epic story based in the actions of the wife of one of the witnesses when the show is advertised as being about the 2 witnesses fighting the apocalypse, picking up members in their ragtag group along the way. The problem is that the whole Jenry story feels like it's more about Katrina and Henry than it is about Ichabod. It shouldn't but it does. If Sleepy Hollow had been about Katrina from the beginning, I wouldn't say Goffman ruined things. My problem is that he changed a show that brought so much joy and levity and fun and made it soap drama hour with the lamest "twists" ever while the person central to it all inspires very little pity and empathy.

Ok, starting off on a good note. -I agree with you that it's completely legitimate for KW to want to do more than a breathy exposition scene. The poor girl needed to do more than that. -I agree that the character has been written horrendously, and I think I speak for a lot of people on this forum when I say it's a genuine complaint and that's why the character has issues. We still don't really who she is, just what she does. Her characterisation is giving me whiplash. -I am 1000% with you on the fact that harassing the writers on Twitter or accusing them of discrimination is THE surest way for them to ignore the valid criticism that comes from fan feedback. Here come my BUTs (not personally attacking you just expanding on what I think you are pointing to): 1) While I think they needed to integrate Katrina in the plot, they failed. Also, giving her something to do VS having every plot point and big twist somehow linked back to her are two vey different things. The writers, who wanted to give her more opportunities to be active, decided to keep her holed up in that stupid house for forever. Most of the plot impetus in each episode did not really hinge on her presence there. They should have had her leave after 'The Kindred'. Everything that happened up until Deliverance did necessitate her in that house. All of Henry's plans did not need to have her present in the house. All it did was give us whiny Headless. As for KW, I don't have a huge problem with her but unfortunately, she did not make lemonade out of those lemons. She does not actively bug me but I wished she had sold those Jeremy moments more. I did not feel the mother-son "bond", I did not feel the desperation of a mother watching her child lost and self-destructive, but I have gone in lengths about this already. Those shortcomings are completely on the writers though, which is what everyone is complaining about so I don't really understand where you're going with this...? 2) Here are the arguments in my reasoning as to why there is a strong case for fan interventions in this show and why they should voice their complaints: Anyone who appreciates KW would want her to have opportunities to effectively tell the story of her character. Anyone who loves this show enough to feel the need to ask the writers to course-correct when they think they are not using the tools they have effectively would want the Katrina character to be used efficiently as well and hope that she can enrich the fabric of this story. When they have her character say things that amount to "We should deal with Henry like I say just 'cause..." or "All those things I did in the war mean nothing and are not about who I am", it effectively erases every info they give us about her because she is being telegraphed to the audience as being of value because she is those things. They need to be made aware of that. If I believed in the competence of the leadership in the writers' room, I would think that this is meant to be telling us as the viewers that her psyche is suffering from being in Purgatory and that her role as a wife and mother began to supersede that of an assert in the war because that's what she held on to for 200 years. It seemed though that they just wrote lines that fit in that moment and didn't really think about the repercussions of her denial. The fact that a team that supposedly wanted to give her an opportunity to shine took 13/14 episodes to think about exploring the trauma of being in limbo for 200 years shows how clueless the writing team is. They didn't realise that they were showing her to be weak and useless as a witch, therefore the viewers have to make assumptions in their heads as to why she seems to fail at the one thing that makes her "special". There is no canon to back it up, if a show-runner has to give us all that extraneous info for us to make sense of a character, they have failed in their writing. The purgatory excuse while valid is only mentioned in interviews not in script since the season 1 finale. More importantly instead of stating that she has been weakened by her captivity, they have in script endorsements of how "powerful" she is by other characters which is negated by the story they are showing. My point with all this is, those writers were not even aware that they were not writing the character judiciously, it had to be pointed out to them. The fact that both professional critics and fans were on the exact same wavelengths shows that it's glaringly obvious to everyone where their writing problems lie. So while I think fans should learn self-censorship because it never bears fruit to publicly accuse someone of bigotry, the criticism the fans were pointing to is too valid to be ignored. They should not have to pretend that the show is perfect just because someone has a contract. If anything, all that vehemence against the character should be an indicator to the writers that they did something not quite right. Example: apparently, without people dissatisfaction with the minimal amount of narrative focus on Abbie and her backstory, Goffman would have thought that only one episode in the whole season that addressed Abbie's intense and complex family history was enough. Later, and I am praying that this is an exaggeration, I even heard that 'Mama' was only planned after people from the network pointed out that there wasn't much backstory of Abbie's explored. Those are signs that the writers that don't know what's enjoyable in this show and the things that the viewers not only want to but need to see to add layers and depth to the characters, and I mean all of the characters. The thing that (I believe) irritates some viewers is that at least with Katrina they tried. It feels like the writers created every opportunity to make Katrina compelling, meanwhile with the other characters they just floundered and ignored the strong base that was established for their characterisation in season 1. Ichabod went from a man with strong principles who realised the shortcomings of colonisation to a dude just following his best friend and they payed too little attention to Abbie to ruin her but the mission oriented Abbie who finally accepted and realised her role as a Witness would have gone solo, if needed, to try and destroy Henry. Also while I completely abhor the idea of people attacking KW personally (they should just not follow her and pretend she doesn't exist if their dislike of the character is being transferred to her or if they find her acting to leave much to be desired IMO), I have not heard about anything involving her and the fans since her Twitter blunder where she said something that was perceived as baiting and used #Ichabbie to bring attentions to it which annoyed those fans. Everything on the internet I have read is about the character and the writing for her more than anything...At least on the websites of actual magazines and professional critics, it definitely is. ETA: Wrt contracts talk, Colin Donnell on Arrow got killed in the first season even though he was originally in a 3-year contract like all the other regulars... Nothing is set in stone. Things happen.

First of all, I have been pretty annoyingly vocal about the fact that I don't believe this is a case of racist agenda or intentional slighting of black charcaters/actors. From your previous posts that I read, I gather that you like Katrina. I understand that it must not be pleasant for everyone to be bashing her and wishing she dies and never appears on screen again. However that does not mean you can just ignore the concerns raised by other people and put words in their mouths. I find it offensive that you're saying people are wanting to see and/or ok with Abbie being a home-wrecker because she's black and the wife is white. Like someone has said, this isn't Scandal and we don't want adultery, thank god. The issues that people have raised are based on the fact that the plot that has been shown to be unsatisfactory. The original premise of the show was clearly heavily focused on Ichabod and Abbie as witnesses with occasional focus on the other main cast. It's absolutely reasonable for people to be confused when the focus of the story so heavily shifts to a secondary main character who on top of that is not as liked as the two central characters. The reason why people go to the race argument is because they don't see any dramatic or narrative argument that would show the advantage of the story having such a bigger Katrina focus. Add to that the fact that the other secondary characters that have virtually disappeared are Jenny and Irving while Henry and Hawley are more prominent, of course some people would feel nervous. Many don't feel that we have necessarily learnt much more about Ichabod or Katrina and feel that what we conceived for both characters last season seems to have been contradicted by what was shown this season and unfortunately it does not paint them in a positive light. Even Katrina has not been served better by this storyline other than we see more of her. I have a huge problem with what you posited because: 1- I have never ever seen even one Icahbbie shipper saying Ichabod should leave Katrina for Abbie. They are very clearly thinking long term, way after things would be over with the Cranes' marriage (because it is showing clear signs of strain that is based on two people just not being compatible). On top of that, I see a lot of people that don't want romantic Ichabbie *hand raise* who still think the Crane marriage is a train-wreck. Heck as soon as Caroline was on screen for more than a minute people were already thinking of shipping them before she died. That is a typically a big sign that viewers are looking for an alternative romantic pairing for a character when the one offered does not work for most people. Nobody is asking for him to cheat on his wife or anything like that. 2- Nothing Abbie is doing in the show is about getting between the Cranes as a couple. She doesn't seem to give two fucks about them being together or not as long as he keeps his eyes on the price... which is the fate of the whole fucking world. For Pete's sake, she pretty much acts as his freaking marriage counsellor. The show has not shown Abbie to have romantic feelings for him. He seems to be equated to Jenny level of importance in her mind. 3- If you're trying to say the issues presented have nothing to do with race then presenting an other potential situation where the races are switched as opposed to being the same negates said argument because in that case as well you are saying that race would matter, just to the detriment of another character. That makes the argument you are trying to make wholly invalid. PS: Also I am confused about what the show being black and white has to do with having black and white characters. Morality of the characters/fandom is not what's being discussed here. The race argument is not built around whoever Ichabod loves. In fact a lot of people who feel Abbie is slighted want to see her romantically involved with someone who is not Ichabod. Abbie fans want to see more inner life brought on screen for her when not on mission like we see what matters outside of the mission for...well everyone BUT her. PPS: I realised the tone may seem brusque and admonishing but my intention is just to apply logic to this argument here. I always try to see it from the other "side" of the argument because I don't want to dismiss others' opinions but there are too many logic hang ups and assumptions of other people's views for me to be able to see from your perspective. I just have to assume that you misinterpreted the complaints by those unsatisfied with the story development and if I have misinterpreted your argument, I am more than open to corrections.

One thing I will never forgive Katrina EVER... I can no longer name Melisandre AKA "the red bitch" (that's a GOT reference BTW) as the only crazy ginger I don't like. Super pissed. She was supposed to be my exception to the rule that gingers are awesome.

ROTFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Crying of laughter!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I wish... Basically we all have written freaking essays about what went wrong.

1) I wasn't saying that that's what Ichabbie fans think, I was saying it's the opposite of what they want. They would find them hooking up right now complete bullshit as well. I was saying that with regards to Abbie not having had onscreen romance yet, it doesn't mean she will never have or they want to show her as a spinster. I also did say that I agree that the writers do not need to write into it because the chemistry does the job on its own and it makes them come across as assholes. 2) Listen, I talk all the time with the issues I have with racial profiling and the expectations/representations of races in the media. I have a gigantic problem with it -especially in the US- because there are civil rights in place, this is one of the few western countries that has such a huge percentage of its population being non-white and the public attitude has a sadly negative undercurrent sustaining buas but every time I talk about it, people bitch that I'm another European criticising the US... So I just let it go but I have a huge problem with the pervasive idea that personality types are race specifics or "black characters" being written which makes no sense to me because other than skin colour, what makes a black character different from a white/asian/etc. one in the same psycho-socioeconomic background? I just don't want to be offensive because I have such a completely different cultural perspective that it seems people get upset every time I talk about this topic. My point is that I don't think Goffman walks into a room and tries not sit close to the black people. I feel that the slighting of the black characters is incidental. He has a Katrina obsession and if Abbie was played by a white actress, her and Jenny, also a white actress, would have suffered the same amount of narrative stifling. They cast Orlando Jones before anyone so I don't think the rest of the casting has bearing on his fate but presumably, the same thing would have happened because they feel they need more story space. Do I see issues with the treatment of non-white characters? Yes*. Do I think it's a Goffman only problem? Of course not. That's what bothers me, It's like people are just making up this anti non-whites agenda with him working to destroy any positive representation of Abbie/Jenny/Irving/etc. or making sure they disappear slowly off the screen. Abbie's screen time has not significantly decreased, the failure here is due to incompetence from the writing team in accommodating new characters and their desperation to make the Cranes' storylines work. Our societies have a weird undercurrent of considering certain races in a condescending way and of course it makes its way in even if the person is not aware of it. That does not make it his fault that they exist. However, I do think that after those issues were raised with him, he should've been more aware of it now. The problem is if you (using general you here) go up to someone and publicly call them racist, how do you think they are going to react? Especially if they would never think they are? That's what I'm trying to point to here. I just find it more productive to explore his shortcomings as a head-writer than positing on his personal convictions based on actions that have been perpetuated by decades of leaders in the industry before him. It just means he's blind to the way things can appear to an audience that has a lot of baggage when it comes to those issues. That makes him an uneducated -on this issue- idiot but like I said, I wholeheartedly believe that's the case. That does not mean he's racist or hates black people. *To be fair, I see issues with every non-Katrina character in one way or another in terms of the writers' intentions for the development of said character. At least with Katrina they were trying but everyone else was pretty much changed to fit their plans for CFD which only has "good" implications for Katrina.

Indi, I guess those examples didn't have a complete lack of romance but technically Abbie has had 3 "romantic interests" and yes, they were shitty and led nowhere but they did happen. In Bones and castle, both the couples had explicitly expressed feelings by -I believe- the end of their fifth season and got together in the sixth, I'm not too sure I was binge watching so it all blurred together. In Fringe, it was clear that the make out guy wasn't really an option. I didn't remember the details but I wasn't focused on the romance angle so maybe it flew over my head in season two but it was clear that she had a real issue getting closer and it took all that time to take the leap and then she got separated from him. Really what I'm saying is that they don't want the witnesses together because that was not part of their immediate plans, not because Abbie is played by a black actress. I was trying to illustrate that saying Abbie is too busy for romance is not a romantic foil the Sleepy Hollow writers have invented, my point was that that's not a rarity at all and has been applied to white females as well as black ones. Also, while i understand concerns over the character's romantic prospects... Well, we're only a season and a half in and in "normal" season terms basically it's only been a season. Saying that she will NEVER have a romantic interest because it hasn't happened in the first 24 episodes of the series is jumping the gun IMO. The good thing here is while they didn't give her enough opportunities to fail as character since the first season, they also haven't demolished her characters and kept her mostly faithful. Her randomly going googly eyes over a guy or thinking about going on dates while on patrol/mission or whatever would seem to be OOC. I can only see her letting someone in who is already in this fight with them, maybe the new fallen angel guy, who knows. I'm just saying that I don't want the writers to think that all Abbie fans want is to see her have a completely shallow relationship as opposed to laying a great groundwork so that the romance feels good on emotional, dramatic and narrative levels. It shouldn't come out of left field, for example we still have no idea what it was supposed to be that Hawley found attractive about Abbie other than she's hot. It also would need the right chemistry, so I need to feel that I can trust them (ha!) to find Nicole a great partner with whom the interactions are natural. That's the reason why I'm not against Ichabbie since their chemistry is off the charts and they value each other (when Crane is not in a Katrina haze, although right now unless it's near season 3 ending with severe course correction I will cyber-punch the writers in the face if they even try to subtext romantic interest between them) but it would have to be done respectfully and no crappy retcon à la Vampire Diaries where suddenly they've both been in love with each other since their eyes met. That would be bullshit. That's why I'm kind of glad for the new character, I can skip the Cranes' delusional ramblings without skipping Abbie -I am sick of only seeing her have reaction shots to their bullshit- and hopefully they both gain perspective with Ichabod realising what Abbie needs in a teammate and Abbie realising that she should have punched Ichabod in the face for the Purgatory mess especially when followed by him doing things that went against their mission and the common interest of innocent lives.

From the pictures in episode 213, they look like they are standing at the City Hall of Sleepy Hollow. 21st Century Crane Wedding bells? *wink* MWAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAH

Isn't that whole story literally sexual harassment? That's disgusting, why the hell would he even think that it's appropriate to say something like that publicly? I would be pretty creeped out if I were Lyndie. GROSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ok, I fucking hate Goffman and I think he should go away to a TV land far, far away from Sleepy Hollow, make his own show with KW and let it flop gloriously. The one agenda I do not believe him or his team has is some kind of racist slighting of the black characters. They had a concept with the two witnesses being buds and got taken aback. He is also peeved that a character that he likes is basically shoved to the side because so few people are into her when Abbie is a clearly better alternative. That's just what happens when there is a chemistry black hole with an established pairing, people just start to think "well if A is in a sucky relationship with B why not get with C?" Also the whole when does a white female character goes all "strong woman who does not need a man" is one of THE most overtired procedural/political tv show tropes EVER. So many shows with a leading woman who's a cop, lawyer, politician, etc. have had her portrayed as not having time for romance while their male counterparts are having a very healthy love/sex life. Or if they are married, they are basically sexless and some lamely predictable divorce proceedings happen at one point or another. Here's an example in the sci-fi/fantasy genre: Fringe basically had the lead female have an ex that became a villain and then kept the co-leads not romantic until the third season with hints here and there while the guy still had romantic interests introduced and her only other love interest was obviously put there as a foil for the burgeoning relationship with the two leads in season 4. They pretty much presented her as the "don't have the time for this", workaholic type and she had so much trouble asking for help or letting herself be vulnerable with others. This is absolutely not a rarity.

See, love your post but I have an issue (both with fans AND the creative team) because I don't see how Abbie backstory means Ichabbie moment... The two are not sufficient conditions for one another. I can like Abbie without thinking she should be with him. How is showing her history with her mom Ichabbie fuel? That's a good point... Most Ichabbie shippers I talk to are not like "GET NAKED NOW", more like "Aww, I so want to see them falling for each other later on." ALL I CAN SAY IS YEEEESSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ugh, he is so stupid, it hurts. They need to get their shit together. Although their failure is its own source of entertainment.

I really want to see fun Abbie interaction with the new guy but I also want more Jenny with her as well. Even though I know they will show her having some sexaayyyy time with Hawley. Oh well at least he stays the hell away from Abbie.

I think his screen time will be mostly with Abbie, the tidbits of spoilers seem to point towards them teaming up quite a lot.

I'm sorry... Who is this Abbie you speak of? I remember no such character of interest in Sleepy Hollow. An extra perhaps?

Tears are rolling down my face as I am witnessing this (Look at me getting punny!). I might die choking on my laughs / whatever I am drinking but I am ok with that.

He cheated on us with Jane The Virgin.

WARNING!!!! I'm about to go on a bitchy rant. Gird your loins. Ok... I read this, decided to take a deep breath, thought I could come back to comment on this when I calmed down. I.AM.STILL.NOT.CALM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Never before have I doubted the competence and intelligence of a showrunner the way I do Goffman's. I am sorry but this too much. So he thought that 1 out of 18 episodes was doing justice to Abbie's story!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? The co-lead? Even if the witch hunt episode is the only Katrina-centric episode of the back half, she would have had more episodes than Abbie dedicated to her. Is he fucking serious? I have played the devil's advocate fully on his side until Deliverance and hanging on to scraps of moments that focused on Abbie's emotional state, telling everyone that it was proof he does have regard for the character. Even until now, I was defending his original plan of keeping Abbie in purgatory because I felt he understood the character, respected her and recognised what she brings to the show. Now I have to believe the people who said he would have basically shown her for 2 minutes per episode while trying to sell that sinking ship that is the Cranes with the Abraham factor to "juice" it up. This is the final evidence that this moron actually has absolutely no idea what people enjoy about this show. He can stick that crap about "casual viewers" and "core audience" where the sun doesn't shine. It's that core audience that stays even when they're displeased (out of loyalty), the "casual viewers" will switch off the TV when it gets boring and make zero effort to catch up and end up never returning. I really don't know who that guy thinks watches the show, and why, but he needs to go. I have never felt this vindictive about any creative leadership since the disaster otherwise known as the Harry Potter 4 movie. I categorically refuse to watch any project of that director's and I want Goffman gone from this show or at least demoted. I will avoid anything under his leadership like the plague from now on. He doesn't know how to write sci-fi/fantasy, I could appreciate his input for the 'real world' stuff last season but he obviously has no handle on the most basic storytelling tools this genre needs. His idea of bringing internationality is switching off religion and going for folklore even though Christianity and folklore are often intermixed and adapt depending on the region of the world they are in. Basic research would have informed him of that. He is doing what I think I will despise: completely abandoning the original premise and therefore turning this into a boring show that I could watch being written better in Salem and/or Turn. No, the writing has never been perfect, last season's writing wasn't Emmy-worthy BUT it had accomplished what no other show has done in a recent while and that's providing a wildly exhilarating ride where you could just let the show take you wherever because you cared and loved the characters from the get-go. What I did believe to be Award winning was the performance of everyone involved in the pages-to-screen realisation. The acting, the directing, the SFX, the costumes, editing, etc. All these technical tools that help give you the fullest experience of the story were there and I still felt they were there this season until the last episode where the entire show felt tired, dragging and abrupt all at once. I have seen worse on TV, obviously otherwise I wouldn't even write here, but I have never seen a worse waste of talent and resources. Goffman is letting all these amazing people down because the story being told makes no sense, lacks direction and purpose, focuses too much on one element (that for the most part is not even liked) instead of moving forward with the two lead it has been blessed with. I hate him in a way that makes me feel embarrassed because I don't know the guy, he might be a nice dude but he is ruining something I have cared deeply about more than I ever expected to. I want his influence on the show reduced or completely erased and I want the original writing team back since this one (even though I like most of them, especially Kindler) seems to have little knowledge of the established characters and sadly have taken horrible habits and are not sure what this world is about. I will hold on for this season, I already bought the iTunes pass anyway, but unless I hear of structural changes, I probably will not be back for season 3. I feel chagrined that I am leaving behind these amazing actors and not contributing to a substantial way to recognise and appreciate the great efforts put on by this amazing cast and crew but alas I can not see myself holding on anymore. He has proved that he is not interested in telling a story I would be compelled to follow and while that's his right, I as well have the right not to watch and endorse his (in my opinion) unimaginative and completely boring vision.

Here's another UO. I think that they should have gone ahead with Abbie being in purgatory longer than an episode. I feel like there still could have been ways to incorporate the leads interacting through vision and linked the event on this plane and purgatory. That creepy dollhouse was intriguing and more world building could have come from it. It also would have had more team interactions because Jenny would have been there to help and Katrina would feel less awkward as well as not forced into that awful "spy" stuff. I think they had so much built around the rescue mission that when they had to scrap the idea, the only SL they had left that was developed was CFD and they had to extend it while rebuilding Abbie's SL.

Yeah... I think that pretty much confirms that Irving has gone bye-bye.

I agree with stacey! I have thought about it and I still can't see what being together romantically would do to enhance their relationship and what they bring out in each other. Also, for some reason, I just can't picture them being intimate in that 'waking up in bed together', or making out way. I feel like their potential is more alluring than the result would be. This brings me to my unpopular opinion: I do not find Ichabod/Tom Mison hot or physically/sexually attractive. He's definitely hotter as Ichabod but I don't know... I think he just reminds me of all my guy friends whom I absolutely adored and had awesome conversations with but I was as attracted to them as to my own brothers. Meaning not at all and I loved teasing them about girls. I can see he's handsome, I understand his appeal and Tom is super flirty but he just doesn't do it for me. I have no curiosity whatsoever about what he looks like with his shirt off. I mean, I enjoy the character and seriously would love having a beer with Tom (well, I hate beer... I'd probably get me some apple cider).