LilyoftheValley

Count me as shocked at how dumb people are. The Hague is in the news all the time, and still all but a couple of the teams clearly had never even heard of it. I am frozen in shock that a group of educated adults did not about The Hague. It's like sort of a big deal. Diana should just let Justin decide everything. No really. Just let him make all the decisions. She can then avoid his constant abuse of her when she makes even the tiniest of mistakes. Speaking of which, since Justin is such a pro at all this he should know to take a taxi whenever you can. You go straight there and, more importantly, you do not start out what will of course be a physically demanding day with one mile race. I wonder if they thought Rotterdam was a part of Amsterdam or something? I dunno. Anyway, Rotterdam is a pretty major city. I just assumed everyone knew about it. But TAR never ceases to astound me with the complete and total ignorance of these people, especially since these are people who love nothing more than to talk about how smart and competitive they are, which is now obviously something all of them just made up in their own minds.

JustFab is so incredibly cheap and low rent that I cannot believe that anyone at PR thought it was a good idea to partner with them. All their clothes are cheap sweatshop crap that is a rip-off at $40. All their shoes and dresses in that price range look like they ought to retail at $9.99. It is Payless on a website. That is all it is. The accessory wall may as well be Payless; JustFab is of the exact same quality. Which brings me to: this challenge was about designing for the absolute opposite of high fashion. Of course it was going to fail. Ashley really needs to grow at least five more years as a designer. Edmond is good but I don't think he really understands women all that well. Ah Candice, well the goth Betty Page thing is fortunately extremely popular among girls who want to show how unique they are. I think Candice has a niche there because apparently this look just gets updated every five years or so and is presented to the goth Betty Pages and adopted en mass. Laurie has the most irritating voice.

Well the Duggar parents have limited curiosity as well. They have gotten to take a lot of trips but you just know that was purely for the show. Let me put it this way: if the Duggars won 10 million in the lottery and they were never on TV, there is no way in hell they would have taken a trip to China. At best they would have bought a really fancy RV and gone to visit the Bates family. I have some hope for Jill since Derick does actually seem interested in things and curious about the world. Every fundie family I have ever known was like this. They never traveled or read unique books or learned languages or anything like that. I sometimes think that fundamentalism is a cover for people who have zero curiosity or interest. Their blandness and banality can be explained away by their religious beliefs, and that is one of the things that (subconsciously) attracts them to the religion. The Duggars are exceptionally boring people one the individual level. The thing about them that is interesting is that they have 19 kids. Other than that, not one of them is well-spoken, funny, quirky, artistic, intelligent, curious or anything but pure white bread blandness. Shit, David and Priscilla Waller look interesting by comparison.

You nailed it. Indeed I think all the Duggars are very insecure people. Their cockiness is a mask.

I agree. I don't think Derick really knew anything about it, and I would argue that it is none of his business unless one of his children spends the night at Josh's house or something like that. Jill is a victim here. But this is the problem with not really getting to know one another before marriage - you also skip getting to know their family. I recall with one of my boyfriends, it took until about the 4th family get together before it struck me that I really did not care for his sister-in-law. She was a nice enough person but the way she ran social event completely put me off. Indeed I did not like his entire family all that much. To me that was a huge deal when it came to us ever getting married. I do not think that Derick thought any of that through at all. He had the hots for Jill and that was that. Well, now the reality sets in and I bet he is not happy at all. I am assuming he does not want to live in a house Boob owns, and I do not blame him. I am also guessing that he has decided that both he and Jill are going to need to find a way to earn a living independent of the Duggars. Well, if he is not thinking that way then he is a great fool.

If you really think about it, Jill and Derick didn't really know each other before they got married. They are probably just now getting to really know one another. That can either be thrilling or horrifying. We sometimes forget that when we all selected a spouse, we got to see how that person handled difficult situations. Jill didn't get that. She got it all at once though in Joshgate and who knows what Derick's reaction was?

I don't understand how the unmarried adult children can stand living at home with their little brothers and sisters and their parents and not have anything going for them! Look, I completely understand moving in to your parents house to save money or to start a new career (I did the exact same thing to get my law career going - didn't want to, but had to). However, I initially moved out to go to college when I was 17 and had roommates and my own thing going. People have observed that the Duggar children just look slouched around a lot of the time. Well that makes sense. If was was in my late teens/early 20's and I had their life, I would be incredibly depressed too. Heck, Jinger does not need daddy to pay for photography lessons. All she needs to do is contact a local photographer and offer to be a free assistant for a year in exchange for her (I know it would have to be a woman) teaching Jinger everything about photography. In fact all the children have the option of doing a year-long apprenticeship like that.

They have done studies. Essentially an individual can have a maximum of 12 close friends and a wider social circle of 50. No really it is that small. What I took from that is that even modern people have a little tribe and a big tribe and those are your tribes and that's it. If everyone here stopped and really thought about it, you would notice the same pattern in your life. People will attempt to make these bigger, but you always wind up whittling them down.

It varies by state, though I suspect Arkansas has limited regulation. Many states require that a midwife be "supervised" by a doctor, similar to how a nurse is technically under a doctor's supervision at a hospital. What the word "supervise" means in this context has be litigated many times and, again, it varies from state to state. Sorry this is probably not that great of an answer but I took a healthcare law class in law school and it has been ten years and I never practiced in this field. Anyway, to me being a midwife is a serious calling and not something to sort of dabble in. Either you have the character type to stay up all night, fix problems, keep calm in the face of catastrophe, and above all know your own limits, or you don't. Look, an easy birth with zero complications doesn't require a midwife at all (if you really stopped to think about it). It is the harder ones that require one. To me the hardest thing about being a midwife would be to know when you have reached the limit of what you can do and that it is time to go to the hospital. I grew up in total hippie culture and we used midwives long before these fundies got on board (well post 1950's). At any rate I have heard of two babies dying and several very scary emergency hospital trips. The midwife who delivered me (at home 30 + years ago and I was only her second) is now completely against home births and will only practice in a hospital under a doctor's supervision. That woman was an intelligent and professional person who understood that she had limitations. Jill is not mature and she is not professional. Whenever you read or hear about a baby or mother dying or suffering a serious problem in a home birth, there was always a point where the midwife wasn't able to set her ego aside and call 911. It was that point where two lives were in jeopardy. A great midwife recognizes this point and immediately takes action even if it "robs" the mother of her home birth. It's sort of like the guide on those Everest trips who needs to turn around but instead pushes to get their client to the top. This is why I cannot fathom that midwifery would ever be a good match for any of the Duggar women. It requires that the practitioner have her feet solidly in the realm of reality and constantly assessing her ability to handle a situation. Jill, at the age of 24, went straight from her parents to her husband. She never got those years where you are in bad situations and the only person you can count on is you. If you really think about it, the Duggar children have never had to make a hard or difficult decision on their own.

Okay so I am not a Christian and I am not religious, so maybe I just don't get it, but surely coercing or bribing a person to convert to Christianity (or Evangelicalism in the case of El Salvador) is not exactly a real conversion? I mean shouldn't something that stem from true sincerity and belief? BTW, though I deeply respect the work that medical aid workers do in many countries, the ones that are associated with a religious mission also reek of this. It seems that there is a "catch" to many of these missions and it involves subtly providing non-religious services in exchange for conversion. Again I am not a Christian and I do not believe in God but my understanding of the Christian God is that he cannot be tricked.

I could have sworn that Jana was pursuing midwifery. Well, whatever. All these Duggars are incapable of fully committing to a job or a course of study. It is more apparent now that several of them are in their mid-twenties. I am not saying anyone should have it all completely figured out at that age or anything, but the "piddling years" should be coming to a close and their should be a clearer focus on what you're going to do with your life. I strongly suspect that Jill and her siblings were convinced that they would have the TV show income forever and so they saw no reason to do anything else.

Jill, a woman with a GED and the equivalent of an eighth grade education, has absolutely no business working as a medical professional. There is not a single person from the Duggar family who is qualified to regularly have the lives of two people in their hands. First of all, just by watching the show you can see the low level of judgment they all possess, but more importantly the delivery of babies is just too potentially dangerous for mother and child to not have someone qualified there. I have absolutely nothing against a midwife, but she or he must be an actual nurse practitioner with a real education in medicine, not some homefooling product who never had to study for a test in her entire educational experience. Jill Duggar thinks she is smart, educated and qualified to to make life and death medical decisions because she has absolutely nothing else to compare it to. She has never gotten a rigorous classroom experience where she truly had to learn something. She really needs to sit in on an obstetrics course at a nursing college to see what it really takes to be qualified and educated in that field. Most of you here understand what I am talking about. Recall those screw-off classes we had in high school? That is every single class any Duggar child ever took. They required minimal effort and you never had to apply yourself. Now remember that class in college or grad school or law school where you really had to learn all of the subject matter from the entire course for one huge exam? This is what no one in the fundie cult knows about a truly great education. To experience that you have to study 12 hours a day for a week straight and still not pull an A. Now I wonder if the reason none of the Duggar girls have actually become midwives is because their coursework finally did hit the point where they were really going to have to learn some complicated subject matter which required full concentration and dedication. I mean hasn't Jana been at this for like eight years? Why does she not have her own little practice?

Why on earth would anyone go on a mission to a country that is so Christian it's name is essentially "Jesus Christ, Our Lord and Savior". I really want these two to grow some balls and try and convert ISIS. What are they afraid of? They have been very clear that God loves them more than anyone.

I am sure that Jill and Derick are not exactly gung-ho about being in El Salvador. They had to flee the country to avoid being deposed in the Josh lawsuit, and I highly, highly doubt if either one of them, with a new marriage and a new baby, were in the mood for an adventure like missionary work in El Salvador. Anyway, it appears that a lot of people in the Duggar circle have been coerced into doing things they really do not want to do in order to keep the Duggar "good Christian family" myth afloat. I feel like I am watching an asinine social experiment implode in real time.

I think Anna really is that naive. It is unreal to the rest of us, but Anna was incredibly sheltered growing up. I am assuming she believe two things wholeheartedly: 1. that Josh had completely repented from his past "sins" and that he was now a good and Godly man and that 2: watching porn is something that only sinful people do, and since Josh is no longer sinful, there is no way he is looking at porn. Finally, Anna also completely believed that if she was a good wife then her husband would not stray, and of course she was a good wife.

I do not think so at all. I think that there were a few people in the church who knew what was going on (hence Alice), but as to everyone else? I am betting that they said that Josh was impure with some girl at bible camp or something. Josh himself had a very big thing about how he used to struggle with temptation online. That's right, Josh Duggar (and his church) considers child molestation and incest to be "temptation". Let that one sink in for a minute.

To me it is not really about accountability but more about the general public seeing her flounder and stumble over her explanations. The show heavily promoted the notion that this lifestyle was very romantic and quaint. We need to see the Anna Duggar Sweats interview as a counter to goofy lies of the show. Their religion takes a golden age that never existed and abuses women and children. People need to see the reality of all this nonsense. Anna represents the reality much more than Erin Bates and her suitor showing up on a horse-drawn carriage to propose under a gazebo.

I am going to sort of have to disagree here. Anna Duggar is not a private person; she is a very public one. She participated in a show where she earned money off publicly displaying herself and her children. She went on the show and discussed things like how to have a good marriage and how to be a good mother (btw I think she is a very good mother). I feel very sorry for her, but you cannot have it both ways in this life (though the Duggars seem to think so). Anna was a willing adult participant in a show that was all about showing the rest of the world their lifestyle and with it was the implicit lecture on how that lifestyle was morally superior to our own. Anna does need to answer some tough questions. No, not right at this moment, but she is part of an entity which spreads the lie that if women are modest and sexual available that their husbands won't cheat. Essentially the message of their religion is that the reason the rest of us are such "cheating bastards" is because wives are not doing their Godly duty to their husbands. Oh yes, Anna ought to be thoroughly grilled over all this. She cannot have it both ways; she is not entitled to play the "perfect wife", which in their religion translates to faithful husband and then not have to answer some real questions about it.

These people are so full of pride, idolatry and immodesty that I can only sit here and shake my head.

Re women at the bible camp: the Duggars do not actually give a shit if Josh screws women other than Anna. What upsets them is that his behavior was found out and it ruined their livelihood. I think they are assuming that the atmosphere is just too "Godly" for Josh to mess up again, or since they are buddy-buddy with the people who run that farce, they feel secure that any indiscretion on Prince Josh's part will be covered up.

Well, even average people think they are smart, and Josh had absolutely no one else to compare himself to while he was in "school". I think that Josh thinks he is a genius who was just never give the chance. The FRC job was clearly that chance to him, though I cannot imagine that if he were doing some amazing job there that the FRC would not have found a way to keep Josh's job even after the molestation scandal. It was a make-work job, and some part of Josh must have known. That is why it was so easy to fire him; his purpose was to make the organization look good, not to do any actual work. I have a law degree from a very respectable university and though I do not think anyone needs to be a genius to complete law school, having self-discipline and drive is an absolute must. The biggest problem with homefooling is that the student is never asked to truly apply himself. Did Josh ever have to do something really hard, like write a lengthy research paper? Hell no. Josh believes that he would have done great and college and law school because he has absolutely no notion of what it actually takes to truly learn something. Josh has never spent one hour studying for a test, much less several days. At the end of the day, if Josh really wanted to achieve his dream, then he could have at any time in his teens applied for college and worked part time and gotten some grants or loans for tuition. My own suspicion is that on a very basic level, Josh is terrified of going to school with other people and being compared to them. I firmly believe that Josh's greatest fear is getting to college and seeing how totally ill-prepared he is for it, and that is why he never did it. I bet that after all that time spent with educated people in Washington, Josh has an even clearer understanding as to just how uneducated he really is. I highly doubt, for example, if Josh reads books for pleasure, or has ever read a classic. That right there would make him look really, really out of place at law school. Come to think of it, do we ever see or hear of the Duggars reading a book besides the bible?

I have a question for people who grew up in fundie households (there are a few here): did you ever actually respond well to someone essentially yelling at you about how to be a good person? I simply cannot stand it. I never get a message which is yelled at me with faux intensity. I know we joke about TFDM, but at least his sermons are calm and dignified. I am wondering if Josh might actually respond well if someone spoke to him in a calm, respectful, non-judgmental and non-authoritative tone. Oh well, I guess he will never know.

Dear God in heaven, but I just watched some shite off that RU website. Their head guy is really uninspiring. His message is basically that is something is wrong, then we don't do it. Yeah Josh knew all the things he was doing were wrong, he just didn't give a damn. Are there any stats about how well this program actually works?

But isn't that the whole idea behind no education? Josh is totally enmeshed with his father. It is an unhealthy, co-dependent relationship, but this is what they look like. Josh has no independent personhood of his own. Josh has to do as daddy says, or else he is just a loser with nothing going for him. Josh has no education and no real work skills. How can he support four kids without the help of his father? The answer is that he can't; he is totally trapped with no way out but to "please" his father. Wow, well it took a week but damn if I am not coming around to feeling a bit sorry for this little turd. Josh himself knew he was not cut out for all this, so why did his parents force him? Was it really worth it?

The thing of it is, is that Josh cannot use birth control without his entire social circle being viciously down on him. I completely agree that adults do need to make their own decisions, but I think that sometimes those of us from normal backgrounds forget a little just how fucked up Josh's life is. He and Anna can't stop having kids or else they risk being completely ostracized from all of their friends and family (well Anna at least has one cool sibling). Breaking away from your social support is much harder than many here understand. Of course it can be done, but there is a reason why almost all Amish kids return after their Rumspringa; it is simply too hard to make it in the world without support. To me, the children of this cult are in a horrible position. On the one hand, no doubt many of them (like all people) don't really want 10+ kids, but on the other hand, using birth control is an affront to God and is heinous thing to do in the eyes of their family and social group. Telling Josh to just grow up and be his own person is easy for most of us to say. Most of us might have a mom who would really like some grandbabies please, but other than that, modern people do not have family pressure to have a ton of kids. To us, family planning is a private matter, and to Josh, family planning is a public matter. He can't just go get condoms and solve his problem. It just doesn't work that way. It should of course, but in Josh's world doing something like that would be the end of his position in his entire social group. That is pretty damn hard thing to do.