supposebly

I suck at lists, but the retcon of the Trickster into Gabriel was one of the VERY few (I'm looking at the corporeal reapers!) that worked for me. It actually made more sense that he would be so invested in the Winchesters in Mystery Spot. I remember at the time thinking that it was odd that he was so invested in Sam not going down that path. He must have had a change of heart in Changing Channels after all his interference didn't help and the apocalypse had started. With that, I think the trickster legends are probably due to him. So, I don't think there are any "real" tricksters. Ok, lists, lists: I will restrict myself to seasons 1-3 since I don't have a good memory after that. Favorite Final Scenes: Supernatural Christmas Mystery Spot Devil's Trap Route 666 (speaking of subtlety, there was a quiet understanding between older and younger brother that I adore) Night Shifter The Magnificent Seven: It's hellfire, Dean! No Rest of the Wicked: Sam! I must be one of the few people who wasn't surprised that they sent him to hell. It still was incredibly effective. The one I hate the most with the fire of a thousand supernatural nuns: Dean tells Sam he was in Hell for 40 years and feels guilty for breaking after 30. My reaction then: Are you kidding me? That's ridiculous! He is 70 years old now? He held out for 30 years? What is he, Superman? My reaction 5 years later: Whatever. Fast forward. I don't think that's what they were gong for.

Try praying. It works for Dean.

I find sometimes it is forgotten that John had two choices in the end. Let Dean die and deal with whatever happened to Sam himself, or make a deal to have Dean live, which would have the effect that Dean would have to worry about Sam. He didn't burden Dean with all this because he was a bad father. He burdened Dean because he had saved Dean. Otherwise, Dean would have been dead and John would have to deal with killing Sam. I think he made the best choice, maybe because he couldn't face maybe having to kill Sam. Maybe because he had faith in Dean to find another way. Or maybe he was tired. He always struck me as a very depressed man.

I don't know how many episodes in a row counts as binge watching but I can't do more than 2 or 3. I have found that some shows improve (Supernatural) which I only got into because I bingewatched the first two seasons and some that leave me meh (True Blood). Some shows I prefer in 2-3 episode installments (Justified), other I'd rather watch weekly (Hannibal). Actually, that last one I need more than a week to digest. Yes, pun very much intended. On the other end of the spectrum, Alias, I can't watch without setting some serious time aside since the first 2 seasons are very hard to break down. I imagine 24 would be similar. I agree, ever since I signed up at TWOP, watching TV without the discussion afterwards is only half the fun. But I can only watch so much on a weekly schedule. Reading old discussions was fine too. That is now mostly gone.

That's the sole reason why the Dean-bonding-with-the kid trope works for me. It wasn't simply because he is a hero with a heart for little kids. It was different from his hitting-on-everything-in-a-skirt persona. It added a layer. Otherwise, it wouldn't have and would simply be an action hero cliche.

I suck at those lists but Sarah appeared twice! I haven't forgiven Crowley for that one yet. I believe Benny's grand daughter and the scared mom in Lisa's first episode were played by the same actress. Yup, I suck at lists but I don't forget a face once it made an impression. Ok, one off female characters. Btw, I suck at names too. The sheriff in The Purge. Mara in Folsom Prison Blues. The cop from The Benders. The girl in The Asylum. The blonde "bar wench" in Monster Movie. The woman who published the Supernatural books (I think she showed up as a victim in season 2's "The Usual Suspects") Bobby's neighbor, who probably moved away. Poor woman!

Reading through all of this, I agree with most lists. I adore Crowley, I think he's become the most interesting bad guy on the show. Of course, he had lots of time to develop and they actually managed to keep him fairly consistent. And because he calls them Moose and NotMoose. Favorite Sam version: Hands down MegSam and Samifer from The End. I don't think I need to explain. Favorite Dean versions: ShapeshifterDean. Because he was evil, creepy, disgusting, whiny and pathetic all at the same time. LeviathanDean because he's funny. I miss funny Dean. Especially since he was never as funny as he thought he was. Which made him funny. Does that make sense?

Not for me. There is no Alias without Jack Bristow. Let alone the wigs! Alias has decent character development that 24 doesn't really have, since they tend to die after one or two seasons (days). And Jack Bauer is really just a vehicle that drives the action, not a real character to me. Any character could do it. Jason Bourne comes to mind for example. While Alias, they made those characters their own and defined this show. To me, there is no Alias without Sloane, Sydney, Jack, and Irina.

I don't mind Chuck being the voice of god but him actually BE god doesn't really make much sense. Unless he became god at the end there. Of course it would explain how Castiel survived exploding that first time. I'm not terribly worried about it. I loved his character as is and whether he was god or not doesn't really worry me. What bugs me more is that they used that trope of the writer in the story with Metatron AGAIN and this time with such heavy-handedness. On top, it wasn't really necessary. I've been watching season 2 and up to season 5, the 'special children' thing kinda worked until they decided it always had to be Sam and Dean and it's been foretold, blah, blah. Ignoring that part, I kept thinking, Jake had a sister, was she supposed to go to hell for him and break to start the Apocalypse? Or would anyone do? Did the righteous man and the special child who kills Lilith have to be related? Overall, I think the idea that it could only be Sam and Dean or their relatives was stupid. It takes away a lot of the free-will aspect and the struggle to come to terms with it. Going by the pageant, it could have been any bloodline. Now I want Ava to kill Lilith. She might have done this much faster. Which begs the question, why YED thought Sam was his favorite. Considering how easy Ava turned within a few months, this could have been done much faster.

Maybe in his visions, they looked like their book cover versions?

Vampire Diaries was never a good show. I watched it for a season and a half after there was so much hype on TWOP. I enjoyed it a bit (mostly for the werewolves) but I never thought it was particularly good. It was fairly clear that this was probably going to go somewhere into Damian-woobifying and love triangle territory, both tropes I hate with the fire of a thousand nuns. More or less a typical CW show.

Thanks AwesomO4000! It's just not a complete Supernatural episode when I can't read the initial reactions right afterwards. And I didn't want to be spoiled, so I stayed away from TWOP.

I watched a few clips of 24 the other day and I thought that Alias had a similar vibe in terms of how the episodes tied together. Not with the real-time format but in the first 2 seasons, each episode tied very closely into the next via cliff hanger, a new mystery, etc. That is partly why I find it very hard to stop watching once I start. Apart from it being an excellent show.

AwesomO4000, I really appreciate you looking up the discussion on the final episode on the wayback machine. I did it myself with no success; only figured out how to get to the April 16 save. I would appreciate the link on the initial posts. DittyDotDot, I think we finally did it. It only took 9 years.

I had to go traveling for work at the worst possible time, so I missed the TWOP forums going down, the Supernatural finale AND, most importantly, the discussion of it on the TWOP forums. At least I have a job but right now, it doesn't feel like that was worth it. I'm not ready to delete my TWOP bookmarks yet.

Oops. It did start out as an evaluation of their respective states of mind now and in seasons past. Sorry about the speculations. No, I don't want to go there since I'm entirely spoiler free and hope to remain that way. I don't tend to speculate normally but it just sort of happened to draw parallels with similar issues that came up in season 4. Sorry!

Sort of, assuming that's what's going to happen. I would be tempted to think that in case killing Metatron doesn't open Heaven, it would be a lot closer to what happened at the end of season 4. I think Sam made a final conscious decision to go darkside in order to kill Lilith. Maybe not to die but to lose himself in the process. I don't think Dean is suicidal, I just think he's accepted that as part of his penance if that were to happen. He thinks he deserves to die, that doesn't mean he wants to. At least not in my view.

To force a parallel, I do wonder if killing Metatron will end up making things worse like killing Lilith was. And what about Crowley? Will Sam try and save Dean? I'm sure he will, he tried even when Dean basically said not to in season 3. The difference is that Dean didn't want to be saved to keep Sam safe. This time, it's because he thinks he deserves to die. Sam didn't want to be saved because for once, he wanted to be cleansed and to prove himself to Dean. Not because he thinks he deserves to die.

I'm not sure that was the only thing he said but from Sam's POV, I think this was more about telling Dean that while it is all good and wonderful, Sam tends to suffer from the aftermath. They both and others do. It's actually something Dean said himself at the end of Road Trip when he goes on about how toxic he is. While this one is certainly not true, I think it's come out of his frustration with Dean not seeing the problem. Dean is fine with blaming himself and making sacrifices to make up for everything he does in the name of "Saving Sammy" but he is not ready to change the pattern, when he outright says he would do it again. He does not care that he isn't the only one who suffers when he saves Sam because "it's the right thing to do". And he is the one to decide what that is. While my choice of words was probably somewhat harsh, but maybe immature would be better.

You turn on the TV and right away, it shows exactly what is relevant to your life right now.

I'm sorry but that seems rather childish. So, Sam is pissed that Dean had him run around with an angel inside who erased parts of his mind and killed Kevin and it's all about Dean? How about an apology for that instead of saying he would do it again?

What I find problematic is that the show doesn't seem to know whether this is a good or a bad thing. Blade good, not focusing on Sam bad? Blade bad, not focusing on Sam good? Is it supposed to be good not to focus on Sam? I think yes, that's what Sam wants and that's what Dean needs to learn since that's how they got here in the first place. However, will he have learned this after they get rid of the blade? If the blade is the only reason not to focus on Sam, then it's not good. If it's resolved by getting rid of the blade and getting back to focusing on Sam, not so good. I hope there is a better plan because his speech at the end of season 8 ties into his whole development. That there is nothing he would put before Sam. Years of unsubtle writing makes me wonder if they know the difference between repercussions and actual character growth?

He always knows when to quit and get out. Of course, they should have killed him right then and there. But I forgive that because I like Mark Sheppard a lot and I really like what he and the writers did with Crowley over the years. I really hope they have a good plan for him and his probable downfall.

Ava is still one of my favorite female characters during the show. One of the few where the writing and the acting managed to avoid the cliches that a lot of the female characters have been saddled with.

"I lost my shoe." "And apparently, clowns kill!" The off-camera fight over the axe between Sam and Dean in Mystery Spot. Sam pulling the string on that cackling contraption again! after Dean noticed the superglue on his beer bottle. Their whole conversation about the Tulpa, Sam switching between excited about what he found out and being terribly uncomfortable. "Should I honk?" Andy incredulously: "I have an evil twin." Imitating Horacio Cain. Becky not taking her hand off Sam's chest. Chuck freaking out over the angel tooth in his hair. Cas and Dean on the phone in the morgue. "It's the greatest hits of the mullet rock." Dean lying in the mud under the bridge in the pilot: "I'm super." Too many to count, especially when I think about it.