ElizaD

I feel that it's a character flaw of Rhaenyra's that she's just not doing what she should be doing. The only ally we saw was the lord who first spoke to her when she was taking her baby to Alicent and she doesn't seem to be appreciating him even though he was the only one to greet her now. Young Rhaenyra was actively bad at dealing with nobles but old Rhaenyra is just passive. She's off to Dragonstone for years while Alicent gets to remake the keep and stack it with her allies. Rhaenyra has been counting on daddy to get her out of trouble and enforce her claim, but daddy's gone now. Jace's offer to dance with Helaena may have had a bit of anti-Aegon sentiment motivating it, but it was also the courteous thing to do. He seems to have a greater sense of duty than his mother and, despite his issues with Strong inferiority, I expect he'll be the persuasive good cop to Daemon's threatening bad cop when the war forces Rhaenyra to seek allies. Hopefully season 2 will make the show's world feel bigger with two rival courts.

Robert was having bastard children who were recognised as bastards with no legal right to inherit. It was his supposedly legitimate children with his queen who were his heirs and his brothers after that. Robert was the king and did not try to cast aside his legitimate heirs in favour of a bastard; Cersei was merely the queen consort and violated the succession by passing off her bastards as the king's legitimate heirs. He did not commit treason but she did. When a male ruler did legitimise his bastards, in the era between HOTD and GOT, it was Aegon the Unworthy and his legacy was being remembered as a contender for Worst Targaryen because messing with the succession led to a series of rebellions that took generations to die out. It would actually have been easier for Rhaenyra, as a woman, to put a bastard on the throne - she just couldn't let people know that the child she bore was not fathered by her legal consort. And that's exactly what she failed to do, in a manner that's even more blatant on the show (people are going to be staring when Daemon's children with Laena stand next to their so-called cousins).

Daemon gave Rhaenyra the worst possible advice with his emphasis on Targaryen superiority and fun after marriage. Viserys is a complete pushover who's unable to hold either of them back. With someone like Ned doing the parenting, the odds are that Rhaenyra wouldn't have slept with Criston (so he would remain her ally instead of becoming a strategically positioned enemy), wouldn't have needed to lie to Alicent (so she could believe that Rhaenyra's word could be trusted if she swore not to kill Aegon), and wouldn't have slept with Harwin (so that those who believe in the laws of Westerosi succession or the inability of women to rule would not have been granted massive ammo against her). Someone like grandma Olenna would have made sure that Rhaenyra's first child was either legitimate (Margaery offered to let Loras get Renly started) or fathered by a lover who could pass for Targaryen or Velaryon - then she could get to the part where she (discreetly!) screws whoever she wants to screw. Rhaenyra is so driven by her belief in her rights that she's not doing any of the work. If she has the power of the Targaryen dragons, sure, she might get what she wants. But all the things she's not bothering to do because they're not what she wants to do (legitimate/legitimate-passing children, cultivating alliances with lords, avoiding disasters in personal relationships, doing at least the bare minimum to change the smallfolk's view of her) would still make her position stronger. She's counting only on raw power, and on the lords respecting their vows when she's not respecting any of hers. It's so frustrating and I hope that's intentional on the show's part: Rhaenyra shouldn't be denied the throne because she's a woman, but she'd be a bad ruler because of who she is as a person.

I don't even remember what Dany's two other dragons looked like, so I'm very pleased that HOTD is making its look very distinct. Rhaenyra's dragon has the face of a little sweetie (does she get a boost in size after the time skip, too?) and Daemon's is the creepiest worm - that dolphin-like sound felt unexpected yet so right.

Surprisingly, Liandrin has been one of my favourite things about the show. The book version was a bit too obviously villainous but here it's more plausible that she's just a tough cookie who opposes Moiraine politically and can get the girls to leave Tar Valon with her. Now I wonder, maybe Liandrin looked so terrified when Moiraine revealed she knew about her man because she's been meeting Ishamael himself, not just a random Darkfriend. I thought we wouldn't see her again until season 2, but maybe the finale will have Ishamael's Darkfriend meeting from the book 2 prologue, with Liandrin present.

Does this thread have a spoiler policy for unofficial leaks/images/filming news? IIRC, the Game of Thrones Book to Show thread freely discussed filming and even leaked material (like the season 8 screencaps from episodes that hadn't yet aired). Putting spoilers just in case, a few moments of episodes 7-8 were leaked and they show

If something as huge as this had to happen, this was the second best possible timing for it (the best, of course, would have been after they'd gotten to complete season 1 as initially planned). I expect there was some frantic rewriting during the covid break in filming. Hopefully they were able to give his episode 7-8 character interaction screentime/any possible battle assistance moments to others relatively easily. When season 2 begins, I expect Mat will be feeling guilty about abandoning the others while they will be angry but blame this on the dagger's evil influence. IMO, Mat #1 was clearly the best of the younger cast so I'm very disappointed he was the actor who couldn't continue the show for some reason.

I don't know where people are getting all the info (Twitter?), but elsewhere I saw someone refer to the showrunner as having said that season 2 will have two El- characters (Elayne and Elaida, then). Of the two early Reds Elaida is far more important, so now I'm wishing the show had just cast Fleetwood as Elaida, given her everything she's doing this season as Liandrin, and figured out some non-Darkfriend way to get the girls to the Seanchan in season 2 - they're certainly making bigger changes to the books than that. Show Liandrin is starting to feel like such a big deal that I'm curious how they're planning to make Elaida stand out. Whatever happens, I hope Liandrin gets some of Galina and/or Alviarin's material and stays relevant longer than in the books. I hope hidden Forsaken just refers to Lanfear's disguises and a return to Jordan's original plan of Taim being Demandred. Elaida was the #1 example of how people who don't serve the Shadow can still screw things up for the Light and the more prominent Show Valda should be the Whitecloak version of that. There were eight Forsaken statues, right? Four men and four women. Ishamael and Lanfear are a must. Two of the women looked like Semirhage and Graendal (I thought she might be in danger of being cut because there's so many Forsaken schemers but maybe the show wants the sex appeal). That leaves Moghedien or Mesaana (in the White Tower) and three men - I'm guessing Demandred, Rahvin and Sammael. Show Rand can learn to channel from LTT's memories so Asmodean is not an absolute necessity.

The last episode is titled The Eye of the World but I'm wondering, is there a way to twist the plot so that something reveals Rand as the Dragon in episode 7? I like the idea of the flashback with Tigraine's death/Tam finding Rand being the opening of the last episode, but the flashback should come after the reveal for the most impact. Maybe the Ways will have some of the vision element of the portal stones? If the show decides that only one method of fast travel is needed, the stones might get cut. I read that the show has cast Lews Therin and, surprisingly, Latra Posae, the leader of the female Aes Sedai. Episodes 7-8 should have a lot of flashbacks, plus the Malkier exposition, and I'm curious to know how the show has arranged them. The last episode's title makes it sound like it has the biggest event and not just GOT finale-style wrap-up and set-up for the next season.

I'm worried right now that non-readers will be disappointed when Rand turns out to be the Dragon. He hasn't gotten anything cool to do and has mostly been Egwene's boyfriend. I hope Loial at least sells the Aiel angle when they meet. Even if we're getting Tam/Dragonmount flashbacks they might not land emotionally. The show gave Nynaeve such a big moment that I can already see the rage when the saviour is Rand instead. There was a short Logain teaser that was cut in a way that made me think Mat would get Rand's book moment of seeing him in a cage. If the show treats seeing ta'veren as more like Min's visions, maybe even a gentled Show Logain can realise what the boys are and start laughing.

Any pacifist philosophy in a fantasy series with monsters is a tough sell, but Maria Doyle Kennedy really made the most of her scenes. Now I wish she'd gotten a major Aes Sedai role so she'd be around a lot more and help make this setting feel grounded in reality. Kate Fleetwood's Liandrin is promising as a tough antagonist, but despite all the screentime devoted to Aes Sedai and Warders in this episode none of it landed with the sense of honesty MDK brought to the Tinkers and their view of the wheel.

I read that the showrunner originally asked for a two-hour premiere. Maybe Amazon just wanted to get the main plot going, but I feel the premiere would have benefited from at least another fifteen minutes. Now the departure felt awfully abrupt for such a big move in the lives of these village kids: it didn't feel like they got to respond emotionally to something as unthinkable as this Aes Sedai claiming one of them is the Dragon. I also wonder if there's something on the cutting room floor about Perrin and his wife, because it felt like they were on the verge of a divorce and he got by far the least characterisation of the kids.

I wonder whether they could adjust the timelines a bit so that Perrin meets the Tinkers before Rand goes to Rhuidean. Most non-readers will have forgotten about them during their time offscreen, but if the show has Aram picking up the sword before Rand's vision that could give viewers the experience book readers had with figuring out what's going on.

Maybe Thom will explain the heron? He had his bonding scene with Mat, next episode I hope he will have a similar moment with Rand so that their reunion in season 2 will feel like it's earned the emotion. When Rand is revealed as the Dragon, I'm expecting a flashback to Tam letting it slip that he's adopted (that would have ruined the mystery the show is trying to build) and another flashback to Captain Tam finding the baby.

I don't think there's another male character in the rebel Tower storyline who could take Bryne's role, so maybe that would mean one of the show's Green sisters would get to be a great general (the Battle Ajah should do more to live up to its name). I hadn't considered the show might drop Bryne, but now I actually want it to happen. Considering all the other choices the show has made and how it will likely make Moiraine/Siuan more than a flashback fling, I don't see TV WOT having both those women end up in relationships with men. Thom will have a good role to play even without a Moiraine romance, but Bryne does surprisingly little for such a relatively big name.

Thom has a vibe like he stepped out of a Western, but the actor made it work. IMO, Mat is by far the best of the younger actors and seeing him interact with Thom was one of the highlights thus far. Really, the whole interlude in that town was a step above the rest. Mat and Rand got some time to breathe and to show their personalities, Thom is a good take on the mentor, and the barmaid was so well written and acted for a minor role that I wish she'd been cast as Nynaeve instead.

I thought that the questioning was written horribly, like Moiraine figuring out Nynaeve's age: trying to make her look smart but dumbing the dialogue down to a level where it's blatantly obvious what she's doing and not allowing the Whitecloaks to trap her by pursuing the leads she's giving. And the clothing was awful, IMO. But the show did offer a grisly visual answer to the question of how they managed to capture an Aes Sedai: her hands had been removed. Show Moiraine's channelling is very heavy on movement and gestures, and even in the books a channeller who learned a weave with a gesture can't make it work without both elements (for example, Aes Sedai throw fireballs but Wise Ones can do that faster because they learned to do a fireball weave without a physical gesture). So Whitecloaks can ambush or poison an Aes Sedai, disable her hands when she's unconscious or unable to respond fast enough, and then they can burn her alive. Show Valda was very over the top, maybe a shade too serial killer gleeful rather than a fanatic without mercy, but in theory I think it's a good idea to make him more prominent as a villain. If Show Bornhald, the less anti-Aes Sedai Whitecloak, took his soldiers to the Two Rivers to help, that could give them authentic support there later in the story. The first episodes seemed very tween-early teen, but at least the opportunity for some moral complexity is present.

I read it as a tween in the 90s and didn't have any problems with it. The similarities to LOTR were obvious, but the bigger role of women unironically stood out and made it feel different. The fantasy that was getting translated here at the time was the Eddings, Shannara and Dragonlance kind of stuff, so in a way WOT having such a standard opening made the difference in quality even more noticeable: it was like those other books, but better and with female characters not subject to faux-medieval sexism. Now nostalgia makes EOTW one of my favourite all-the-way-through rereads: there are no dud storylines that I'll skip, all the main characters are together and being cute little villagers, and it's fascinating to compare the innocent travelogue beginning to what is to come later when the series really finds its own style and massive scope in worldbuilding, intrigue and prophecy. When TGH begins, the story immediately starts feeling different from EOTW and generic fantasy due to the Dragon and the Aes Sedai.

Season 2's finale also felt like a potential series ending and Harlots was still renewed a month later, but now that they've lost Margaret and Charlotte, the endings in this finale do seem even more definitive than in 2x08. It's a shame, because I loved where everyone ended up and would be thrilled to see all the plots continue. When episode 5 had that Fallon/Lucy "I'm a Spartan too" voiceover, I thought it was a pretty strange choice just as a reaction to fencing and actually wondered whether it was meant to establish some kind of otherwise absent foreshadowing to Lucy proving herself a Spartan again by killing Fallon, but I hesitated to predict it because Lucy hadn't really been involved in this season's Fallon plot. I realised it was indeed going to happen when Lydia drugged her after all those scenes in which she'd been increasingly liking/sorta-protecting Lucy even while backstabbing her: since this show has been too well-written to do a last minute Jaime Lannister to Lydia's redemption arc, I got to spend the next minutes thrilled that Blayne was about to be murdered by an old bawd and a little harlot. Probably the most satisfying ending he could have gotten. If the series is indeed over, it seems that Lydia's overall story will have been about her search for the daughter she wished she'd had back in season 1. She hurt Margaret too badly for it to ever be her, and since Charlotte also suffered so much as a result of Margaret's traumas she could never truly choose Lydia. Kate was a fresh start at a time when Lydia was re-examining the cruelties she had accepted since childhood, but she also came from a relatively privileged background and could not truly comprehend Lydia's life: in the end they were simply incompatible despite parting with affection. But for Lucy, it seems the timing was perfect. She doesn't have Margaret and Charlotte's history with pre-Bedlam Lydia, so her interactions essentially start with the new and improved version at a time when Margaret and Charlotte are both no longer around. Unlike Kate, she grew up poor and doesn't have any illusions left. Lucy is also the kind of colder and more ambitious person who's a better match for Lydia: Margaret and Charlotte both have stronger consciences and will do reckless things even for strangers if it's the right thing, but while Lucy loves her family and doesn't actively seek to hurt others she's still more detached and self-centred than the other Wells women. I would love a season 4 with Lucy/Lydia as frenemies who scheme to raise Golden Square ever higher and Fanny/Nancy/Cherry running Greek Street as a warmer kind of house while Emily adjusts to being a businesswoman. But if this is the end, I can say that despite a few wobbles Harlots has been a truly enjoyable show to watch.

This was always a small show and after Charlotte's death I'm seeing even less chatter (and more anger in the little there is), but despite this season's missteps Harlots is special to me and I'd be thrilled to get a fourth season. This episode felt like setup for a potential fresh start. I'd bet that Lydia will finally decide that Blayne is too dangerous even for her (and her new relationship with Kate), so she could play a part in finishing him off and be less of a villain and more of a business antagonist in the future. The molly house is only dealing with debts, not the law and sodomy charges, so it might be saved for future plots despite all the clouds of doom. I would love to watch Lydia, Lucy, Fanny and Harriet all having their own houses and dealing with enemies less like murder club Blayne and more like Lord Leadsom (I've liked the use of historical context in this plot). Those two guns that Emily got haven't been seen again. I predict that she'll end up choosing a side and shooting Hal when he tries to shoot Nancy. That would put her in charge of the Pincher business. So all the women have a potential "happy" ending with their own houses and money if the show is cancelled, but I think Harlots could be so good again when freed of all the need to tie up loose ends that has made this season wonky. Lucy's wardrobe has been amazing this season. I can't describe how much I've loved her pink mix of femme fluffiness and crossdressing.

Wow. Margaret is gone, Lucy called her out on what she'd done, and Fanny is the Greek Street bawd. I'm thrilled with all of those developments. It's a shame that the show is probably not getting a fourth season, because even though Charlotte was in a league of her own I'd love a season about Lydia and her current girls, Lucy/Elizabeth and their house, and Fanny/Nancy giving Greek Street their own touch. Emily is the worst liar ever. Everything about her screamed guilt, even more than when she was trying to hide the Pinchers' involvement in Charlotte's death.

Margaret's return has ended up being a great argument that everyone would be better off without her. With Lydia warning Jonas, I think he'll leave next episode, barred from further marriage unless he lies that Margaret died and having lost his land to Hal. Margaret will be bawding after that ridiculous pardon is granted, but the storylines that her return is blocking are far more interesting. Lucy trying to find a way to be independent and make money without having sex, with William as her superior parent who's looking out for her and warning her without trying to control her. William getting into boxing and maybe having a thing with Elizabeth (who got a welcome moment of honesty). Even a bigger role for Fanny, graduating from best girl to the bawd who runs the house with Lucy and William's approval. But no, it's more of Margaret rushing in and never learning. I still don't like Kate, but I love that Cherry and Anne are back in Lydia's supporting cast. That suddenly feels like the most female-focused plot of the show; I don't think the male cast have ever felt as prominent as this season, and while William deserves his upgrade I loved that this was a show where women's lives and relationships with each other, good and bad, were the most important thing. The scene about the sugar plantations was exactly the kind of historical context I was hoping for when Harriet started her house. As shown by the scene with William, Isabella is out to flatter her brother until she can recover Sophia and take him down. She'll also reunite Anne with her baby, I expect, and give them an income.

Everything is moving at top speed. When Charlotte died, I thought that explained the odd pacing of her story: there was no real time to explore her as a bawd or her relationships with Isaac and Isabella, they just needed to get everything in place for her death. Margaret returned after missing only two episodes, which made me wonder why write her off at all, but then I thought that maybe they needed her after Jessica didn't renew her contract for the full season. However, even Margaret's story is copying Charlotte's speed: the Pinchers and Lydia found out about her right away and Jonas Young is saying that he sails in two days. Now I'm wondering whether they only got Samantha Morton for three episodes and she'll escape with Jonas after shooting Hal when his already iffy story is exposed in the next episode! Then Elizabeth's interest in William might actually lead to something. But this season is so wonky compared to 1 and 2 that I feel like I'll have to rewatch it after the finale to understand where they were going with this pacing. I hope we'll get more of Lucy's grief next episode, maybe with Nancy (one of her best scene partners), but I loved how her Pa is trying to watch over her. This episode was a little too heavy on recent FWB Isaac's mourning. Manville is so, so good. Even though I want Lydia to pay for her crimes in the end, she's a delight to watch: a complex villain I love to hate. I'm not a fan of Kate's story: at the moment she's just playing harlotry on easy mode, neatly protected from having to confront the abuses that all the other women have had to navigate and live with. I hope she'll learn the truth about Lydia and start making her choices, whatever they are, as an adult rather than a sheltered girl.

The trailers revealed nothing about Margaret marrying, which I would never have guessed to be the way the show got her to return. There's no hints about how that plot will unfold. My guess: Margaret will figure out some way to be with William and Jacob but they have to leave for another British city because London is too risky and Lucy becomes the Greek Street bawd after the molly house is raided by the law. My wild prediction is that Emily ends up going to America as the new Mrs Young: she's learning the business skills to be the kind of partner Jonas appreciates. Even though Hal didn't intend to kill Charlotte, I can't see him escaping that bad karma. I thought that the feud would push him until he broke, but I didn't expect it to happen this soon. The Wells house is without a bawd, they need to address that somehow. Lucy's plot is focused on the molly house. Maybe Margaret can put Fanny in charge and guide her in secret. There's a trailer shot of Lydia and Kate meeting Blayne and a Joffrey-vibeish young man. So Kate's bound to get disillusioned at some point, but she will earn enough to place Lydia in high society again.

It's the classic cast bloat problem. In season 1, Emily was part of the Quigley plot but her story ended with her being free to leave. Season 2 moved Harriet into Emily and Charles' house and added three new characters. Season 3 has Emily with her own plot + three supporting characters (the Pinchers and the gunmaker) and Harriet with her own plot + three supporting characters (Rani, Jack and the lord). Connecting the Pinchers to the established cast through Emily was a good move and I would love to see Harriet's plot examine what it would have been like to run a house for WOC in the 1760s, but it's still cast bloat. Honestly, as much as I hope for a canon explanation of what happened to the Scanwells and Violet, theirs was the major plot that was the easiest to cut for the sake of clearing room for newcomers: if we never hear about them again, it's still easy to assume that Violet left town to avoid any more trouble and Amelia accepted a marriage of convenience that removed her and her mother from the streets. And while I thought Sophia's elopement might be a plot by Blayne, I now hope that it was exactly what it seemed and served to get her out of the way: that would free all of the Blayne plot to focus on more important characters until Sophia returns in the finale for a happy reunion. Also, though I liked knowing all the girls in the Wells house, having Fanny as the only one with lines is probably another necessary decision now that the cast is so big. ... and of course they've now killed one of the three female leads. So Charlotte's screentime will be going to other characters.