Pestilentia

It seems a particular failing of this genre- names way too similar that could easily have been made more distinguishable. We get Aemon/Aemond/Aegon and Rhaenys/Rhaenyra nonsense just like the Arwyn/Eowyn and Sauron/Saruman ridiculosity. Why must they make it so difficult? Because it is difficult and seems intentionally so.

For an episode with such significant events it sure was sleep inducing while getting to it. OK- all the children suck and are entitled little assholes. I think all this "Bobby said six words of instigation but Billy said eight so He. Started. It." is absurd. They've been throwing shade at each other every moment of their lives since each of them were born, it just blew up that's all. Deaths, funerals, major life events- emotions run high and simmering resentments come to a head at the slightest provocation, we've all seen it. I don't really see the need to assign 60% percent blame here, 35% there etc. so we can list them in order of responsibility. They're no more than representations of their parents' lifelong bickering anyway and any adult in that room surprised by the outbursts hasn't been paying attention. When you raise your children to be pawns on your own personal chessboard you can't complain when they get tossed around by the other side. Just find it odd that we work so hard to justify our personal inferences, and after one viewing at that.

Just two things about this season- 1) I stand 300% against ringers. 2) Contestants should be "Stars." Otherwise I'm watching Dancing with Wannabees. Charli can go. She won't but she should never have been put on this show.

She's building a brand, any exposure is good exposure to people like her. Followers mean people like them and as we all know that's the single most important thing in our lives!

You don't know that unless you personally picked up her head and looked at the back of her skull. We've seen Daemon let unfounded accusations against him stand before without defending himself, why not now? The scene was intentionally played ambiguously, that's all. I'd put $5 Gold Dragons on his being innocent. And IMO it is pointless to discuss sexual harassment/assault in Westeros through the lens of 2022 eyes. If we can't watch and enjoy fiction within the framework of an intentionally crafted culture that is vastly different than our own then IMO we shouldn't be watching fantasy programming. Incest is fine here. Powerful people use their power to have sex with powerless people. That's how it is and I find clutching pearls over it to be quite amusing.

He's been relatively competent all along and he's been at court for several years. I did not like that they turned him into a simpering idiot who actually thought "Hey, let's run away together" would solve their problems. He turned utterly stupid and unalived the cutest little redhead I've seen in years. IMO he'd have had a better understanding of his place and how to behave- goading him should not have worked so easily. All in all he turned out to be just a pretty face who should never have opened his mouth- the moment he did sheer volumes of stupidity started falling out. I guess absolutely no one is even considering that Daemon did not use the rock? I heard a distinct crunch when her head hit the ground. He was very quick to let Viserys believe he had defiled Rhaenyra when he had not and I think there's at least a chance this is the same situation. His pathology is somehow more comfortable allowing people to believe the worst of him than it is his defending himself or caring at all that people's perceptions of his behaviors are so skewed. He seems the type that would revel in the bad reputation regardless of whether he had actually done the bad boy deeds. Just me?

If Alicent is bored it's her own fault- she's Queen, she could take up any hobby she likes. We've yet to see a ladies maid or dressmaker- perhaps she could become interested in fashion? Social issues? Feeding the poor, perhaps? Other Queens take up dogs or gardening- she could have the most luscious gardens anywhere. She could take a lover. She could tend her children once in a while. If a Queen is bored or unhappy it's lack of imagination more than anything else. I get that she feels trapped and not exactly deep in a whirlwind romance but it's not as if she couldn't find ways to amuse herself if she'd bother. If I want to feel sorry for someone in this story it's going to be the street urchins/little birds or that guy that got nailed to the post while crabs chewed his eyeballs out. Not a woman who has everything she needs except someone to hold her hand. I have no sympathy for feckless women.

I too was confused by who was riding the dragon. I put it down to perhaps some sort of "Dragonriders" division, but it should have been more clear. The fake surrender is fine by me. It's a war, anyone who says they can be fought ethically hasn't been in a war. You finish it any way you can finish it. The killing of the stag setup was ridiculously ridiculous, but no more so than the big game farms our own young princelings make frequent use of. Not a Matt Smith fan, his lack of eyebrows can be triggering to the eyebrow challenged among us. But he's winning me over here and the choice to go dialogue-less in this episode, whoever made the choice- he or the writers- went a long way toward getting it done. This was the first episode where I felt like "All right!" Crab is the fruit of the sea. You can barbecue it, boil it, broil it, bake it, saute it. There's crab-kabobs, crab creole, crab gumbo. Pan fried, deep fried, stir-fried. There's crab stew, crab salad, crab burger, crab sandwich. They're not hungry.

Well, boo hoo Pen, your "entire" life wasn't perfect, all 18 years of it. And are we really saying she is justified in her behavior? She "found a way to get back"? Like that's a good thing? Pen is a child meddling in adult affairs of which she has no real understanding. She is amusing herself by playing a role that actively ruins lives- she's precocious and entitled and has zero concern how her actions affect other people in a real world way. She's sitting on money that her family desperately needed, and why? Because Pen is all about Pen being smarter, sneakier, more informed, and if anyone gets hurt in the process then she feels like the winner. She's flitting about like a bumblebee causing chaos here, doubt, there, distrust to the left- she's making messes of people's lives all in her little game of stirring up shit just for fun. It's not as if she has a goal, or an end game of how she expects her LW nonsense to play out. She's not working to save money to enable a dream, she's playing a game because that's what children do. And bored, entitled children play purely to amuse themselves. She is oblivious. She needs to be brought down and experience consequences. And in a society when a young woman alone in a room with a young man is scandalous, can someone explain to me how both Pen and Eloise are running all over town alone at all hours? Are there not servants in the houses who notice things like young unmarried girls sneaking out at night and going to dicey areas? Carriages require drivers, horses require care. The "downstairs" staff in both these homes must be deaf and blind.

I think that is probably how she rationalizes it in her little Jan Brady/middle child syndrome pea brain head, but it does not absolve her of her sins, which are many. She is selfish and narcissistic, and that outburst at Eloise was mean. And no matter the genesis of her pathology, she is well able to move past childhood hurts and behave respectably yet chooses not to even when it hurts her best friend. I think she is vile. Maybe not fishead pie levels of vile, but vile. Not much worse than a liar. Eloise's foibles this season boil down to recklessness, but Penelope's are founded on deception and lies and betrayal and allowing people she presumably cares about to suffer in her place. Her Lady Whistledown phase has gone from an amusement to actually harming people and she's so into it that she refuses to stop. She deserves every bit of misery that comes her way. And a moment of appreciation for Kate's gorgeous and absolutely swoonworthy caramel skin. Even I appreciated that thigh and I'm an old straight woman, lol.

Well, I don't see the hotness in George that some of the rest of y'all are seeing. In fact IMO there is not one hot man on this entire show. Larry is as bland as Wonder Bread, Oscar looks like a live action Snidely Whiplash, Raikes is no bueno, and while John Adams is passable I don't see him being featured in any storylines aside from messing with Oscar. Just think we need some real man candy on this show- men with charm and charisma. Here's what occurred to me, and forgive me if this is an old white lady talking out of her ass, but- maybe, just maybe. Maybe after having seen such suffering and families torn apart with zero regard for emotion or love- maybe after a lifetime of seeing that repeatedly one can become desensitized to the wrenching apart of a family. Maybe he had seen it so many times- saw mothers and babies wrenched apart so often- yet recover and go on to have more babies and a good life. Maybe he thought yeah, it's going to hurt her but she'll get over it and go on to have a successful life, a worthy husband, and more babies. Life was cheap, women lost babies all the time and got over it. The end justifies the means. I'm not excusing his actions- they are inexcusable. But maybe he thought he was justified in his actions and used the above rationalization to convince himself that he was doing it for Peggy's own good. He had to have had some thought process going on- he's not a stupid man. He was clearly very wrong but I think he thinks he did it for the right reasons. How Peggy and Mrs. Scott are going to deal with him going forward is more interesting to me than the existence of a baby, which as someone mentioned upthread hardly ever makes a show better. Especially a period piece. Maybe a child could serve as an excuse to hire yet another nanny, but we have enough characters on this show so IMO we don't need more. We just need the ones we already have to do something interesting. I'd like to see Aunt Agnes describe her purpose in living. A discussion between Agnes and Ada about their lives, what they do all day, what purpose they serve. And not Agnes' standard issue quips as a reply, but just one good, real conversation that puts Baranski to better use. IMO she is wasted so far and needs something to dig into- IMO some navel gazing on her end would be a good peek behind the curtains of her life. Has she any aspirations? Pet causes? Any interests at all? I'd like Aunt Agnes to be better fleshed out.

Hard to tell when her face never moves. When I find myself scrutinizing an actor's face in an attempt to discern what look they are trying to put on their character's face, well- that's when I know they can't act. I was literally watching her mouth and her eyes looking for movement to see if I could tell what emotion she was trying to convey and it was impossible. This one needs to get out of acting and into professional poker playing, because no one's getting a read on that.

Being uneducated does not mean one is unintelligent, or stupid, or incapable of conversation- it simply means one did not receive a formal education. And being educated does not make one intelligent, or interesting, or a good conversationalist- all it means is that you were sent to school and managed a degree. I'll spare you a complete list of "uneducated" people who are smart and interesting, but it would include a Jobs, a Gates, a Branson, etc. I can see Peggy meeting a charming, charismatic guy, feeling a connection and falling in love without asking to see his diploma- it happens all the time. The heart wants. As far as children's life expectancy during that era, none of my own great-great grandparent's first three children lived longer than 6 months. Their fourth pregnancy gave them twin boys who both died of "the fever" at two years of age. Their sixth child lived to be five. Thankfully, their seventh, eighth, and ninth children survived and went on to live full, long lives. But I can't imagine the strength it took to keep having children and watching them die again and again and again.

I seriously doubt that you know Fellowes' intentions. "Building a fortune together" is how one states it when a couple starts with nothing and builds a successful life of wealth- the husband's purview is the business, wife's purview is the home and family. It's still a team endeavor and it's still the team that did the building- we don't start categorizing who did what. Sure they don't "work" together in the "workplace" doing workplace "work," but they do work together building their life. It is a team endeavor. So when Bertha says "WE built one fortune..." no one is leading anyone astray. She did help build the fortune. You can't say she didn't help build the fortune purely because she wasn't out there pounding railroad spikes. She is half of the couple. The things she provides George enables him to go be the mogul that he is, and her contribution is equal. To deny Bertha the recognition of a woman's contribution to the success of the family is a bit "wow" to me sitting here in 2022. You can't separate the success of the husband from the success of the wife, especially not when you know they had a plan from the beginning and each a part to play. Well, IMO that is an extremely literal view. Marriage is not that way. It takes two for one to succeed and the contribution of the less visible partner should never be waved away like this and considered of no import. That's insulting, not just to Bertha but to wives and supporting partners everywhere.

Why not? There is nothing here that is that contradictory to what we have seen. Here in this show? No. But none of the other HBO shows that ever aired worked that way- sooner or later that intern-written character description is shown to be untrue. So we've long since learned that they have no relevance to either the source material or the writers- it's just something HBO cooked up to appear on the website.

I think George and Bertha are simply one of those very lucky couples who can have a spirited spat and not allow it to affect the relationship. I know I and hub can bicker then one says "Who wants ice cream?" and it's over just like that- no ill will, no grudges, no getting even, not even an increased pulse rate. It's simply a type relationship where any conflict is discussed and either dismissed or resolved fairly quickly then truly forgotten about, not stuck in a back pocket to 'use' against them later on. The love/loyalty/devotion simply out weighs all the mundane problems that inevitably occur when you live with someone.

Then I hope she sees some action in the last two episodes- other than one very spirited march across the street she hasn't done much. If this is the extent of Aunt Agnes' storyline then I have to wonder what attracted Baranski to the project to begin with- surely not the opportunity to sit around in uncomfortable clothing all day. This is what I love about Bertha and people like Bertha- you know where you stand. No hidden motives or sneaky agenda- it's all right there up front for everyone to see. I may not share her aspirations but I sure do admire her unapologetic manner of living. And the way her face lit up when George tipped his hat- it's clear that she is smitten with her husband and that needs to be celebrated. I only wonder if she will ever get real enough with herself to compare the feelings she has for George with whatever situation she ends up forcing Gladys into. You would think being in a marriage built on true love would help temper her ambition for Gladys, but her sheer focus on climbing the ladder has blinded her to the discrepancy. I would like to see one small scene, maybe pillow talk, between George and Bertha where she admits to wishing Gladys all the happiness inside her marriage that Bertha found in hers. Where she admits, just a little, to her knowing that she is robbing Gladys of a love match and feels somewhat bad about that, but that her history and struggle to overcome her own beginnings has blinded her. She should admit that her ambition is a beast that keeps growing and can never be satiated and that sometimes, in the deepest darkest nights of her soul it concerns her. Just a little. But somebody needs to show some self-awareness here and seeing Bertha do it would be the most rewarding, at least to me. In short, I think that if we were shown a tiny bit of vulnerability in Bertha- a brief moment with only George- then we could understand better what motivates her. I mean we know- yeah, she's into climbing the social ladder, that's her thing. But I mean her deeper motivation- her childhood shame at being descended from Irish immigrants (or whatever backstory she has). There is a compelling story there that made her how she is, that created that need so strong that nothing will ever be enough. I need to know that story to understand her, but I also think we need to see her remember that story at some point- otherwise she's a caricature with no depth. And all of these characters desperately need some depth- most of them are still very two dimensional, and seven eps in I would not expect that to be the case. Watching pretty people do annoying things gets old if you can't watch their wheels turn or see what's behind their curtain.

IMO Oscar should have been quite the charismatic and compelling character had casting gone a different way. He's nearly as 'meh' as Marian and that's saying something. Of course they are setting up his pursuit of Gladys as the final straw that provokes a showdown between The Russells and the van Rhijns, but as it stands neither Oscar or Gladys have given me any reason to care what they get up to. The older generation seems to have been much better cast than the younger- we have meh Marian, meh Raikes, meh Gladys, meh Oscar. At least Larry showed a tiny bit of gumption and he did it really well- he knew what buttons of George's to push in order to be heard. Turner is not interesting, just mean. Agnes isn't interesting, she's just snobby. Ada is only now beginning to become interesting. Bertha is very one note as is George- IMO there are simply too many people around that are not interesting. The plot- is there one? Bertha schemes and George worries. Marian wanders around doing not much- where is it all going? Ah, yes. The Ball. The Big Ball where presumably shit is going to go down. Too little too late if you ask me. This far along in the season I should care about at least one or two of these people but they are boring the pants off me. I'm disappointed in the show- it's like a gorgeous present wrapped in the finest quality gift wrap and adorned with all the curly ribbons and bows imaginable only to be revealed as empty of anything substantial. The tiny speck of interest we feel with Peggy, Peggy's family, Mr. Fortune, and the newspaper business never gets enough time- we're teased enough to want more but never granted the satisfaction of getting it. This was episode 7 and it still feels unformed and lacking like a pilot where characters haven't found their footing yet. By now I should be into a groove and engaged with at least a few of our characters, not babbling about over why they are not interesting. I'm proclaiming the show "meh." It was a good idea that has been poorly executed in too many key areas to let slide. Casting- poor, character development- poor, writing- poor. The only areas I am seeing done well are costuming and set design. It's a very pretty package that really doesn't contain very much other that people in pretty clothing sitting around inside gorgeous homes.

Every day that passes without an announcement that Season 2 is happening makes me hope just a little bit harder that they have. What is "premieredate.news"- is it a reliable website? Because this looks like something prepared in advance of an announcement...

For all of the other HBO shows discussed in forums the character descriptions on the HBO website are laughingly dismissed as nonsense written by interns that have no clue as to the true qualities and motivations behind our characters. Are we now granting them weight? There's no source material to refer to to verify what is canon and what is not- in the case of other shows we rely on what we see on the screen to inform us, not blurbs on a website. Has that changed? HBO character descriptions are now considered canon?

That's e.g. That "f.ex" being used like that has been driving me nuts forever, lol. I was wondering just this morning when we were going to see some Aunt Agnes stories. We've seen her in precious few social settings so far and they have to have something planned. What does she do all day except write letters? And to whom is she writing about what? As the biggest name on the show she is vastly underutilized, I sure agree with that!!

@MissLucas- if you scroll up just a few posts it is all explained here by @RachelKM.

I think Bertha has a lot of admirable qualities. In a day when college age kids are incapable of walking into my office and having a simple conversation with eye contact because "anxiety" (and having learned how to 'communicate' via texts) I find Bertha's behavior to have a lot of redeeming qualities. Do you understand the sheer fortitude it would have taken to walk into a room full of women gossiping about your husband being a murderer? She has balls. She holds her head up and perseveres regardless. She is brusque and she is selfish but she is determined. She has a goal and she is going after it and nothing or no one will stand in her way. If she was a man establishing a fledgling business we'd be all supportive and admiring of her qualities- that ability to shrug off even the most damaging criticisms and carry on regardless of what was thrown at her. It certainly reminds me of a lot of today's high profile businessmen- they are impervious to any and all obstacles. I do find that a redeeming quality, yes. Not that I'm saying I like her or that she is admirable, but I do see a lot of good qualities in her. The bad currently outnumber the good but I do think they are there. I don't think our dear ditzy Ada is simple at all. She presents a ditzy persona but I think underneath that is a capable woman who has simply never gotten any sort of opportunity to explore her talents and interests. She reads, she knows about 'foreign' religions, she seems to stay abreast of current news and happenings quite closely. She's a wimpy younger sister who's been kept in a somewhat subservient role to Agnes who is older and has the stronger personality. She's been cared for and steered and controlled her entire life. But I think Ada just may be a surprise to us down the line and may be on the cusp of a rebellion of sorts herself. She's nearly as ready as Marian/Gladys/Peggy to eschew the old and enjoy the new. I think Gladys struck a nerve with that one and George will soon be revisiting his decision to leave all things Gladys to Bertha. I think Gladys may be a late bloomer in regard to discovering her power- she is Bertha's daughter after all. She did not grow up with those parents and not notice how to get things done, she's just slow to understand how to apply it to her own life. When she does, look out. I think her Little Bo Peep look is intentionally designed to make her look like a child. I think that when she does eventually walk down that stairway at her debutante ball we will be shocked at the transition. I think that once she comes out she will find her way far more successfully than Bertha and I think there will be conflict between the two of them because of it. I'm about done discussing Marian because the character is so poorly portrayed. At one point she was trying to be flirty with Raikes and the ridiculous simpering look on her face took me right out of it. She is equating acting to making faces- there is nothing of "Marian" behind those eyes. I love Mamie Gummer and think she is very talented but IMO this one needs to go back into the Streep Incubation Unit to hone some acting skills because at this point I have seen evidence of very few. How she managed to snag this job is beyond me- she's meant to be our protagonist and yet is the weakest actor in the cast- it just makes no sense.

Nah, I prefer to think of it as pretty history.

I'm glad he doesn't dismiss the entire downstairs class- they're more than their station, they're interesting people. So far the character of Larry seems like a placeholder- yes, there is an elder son but we haven't quite decided what to do with him yet. So you over there, look pretty and hopefully we'll have a storyline for you next season.