SassAndSnacks

This is a great analogy. You called it episodes ago!! Bravo! These are all really strong points, and I agree the show could have/should have done more here with these two. I do think we've seen from last season until now that they've been setting up and proving that Jamie is the better and preferred future leader of the Clan. For Colum to throw it right out there like that in front of Dougal, that Jamie should be the leader and that Jamie should be Hamish's guardian, that was cold. And the look on Jamie's face like "Shit, we don't have time for this..." The exchange between Dougal and Colum was really powerful and heartbreaking, and you could really feel Dougal losing whatever pieces of internal control he had left. The disappoint he's dealing with right now - he's starving, the war isn't looking so good, BPC is a disappointment, he's questioning his beliefs, he can't be his own child's guardian, Colum rubbed his nose in his shortcomings yet again, Jamie is still better, and so on and so on. I feel for him. Oh yes, you said it better than I did. My heart hurt for Jamie throughout this entire episode. The weight on him is just growing heavier and heavier, and no matter what he does, there is no stopping what is about to happen. Murtaugh's words, yes...hard to swallow.

Gah, I feel for the lad. You have to believe that there is a sense of desperation there, knowing what he knows. Since he is aware of how it ends, he must constantly be searching for opportunities to re-route history. I don't have the quotes directly (isn't that @Anothermi's role here!), but basically, he's telling her that he says things to her while she's sleeping because the words would sound foolish if she was awake. While ye sleep in my arms, I can say things to ye that would be daft and silly waking, and your dreams will know the truth of them. Go back to sleep, mo duinne. Sigh... That's the beauty of Diana Gabaldon, who wrote this particular episode. I don't think the show did such a good job of setting this up, but basically, by making his "vow" to BPC, Jamie became a traitor. Then, he became an actual leader of the rebellion - supplying men, leading them into battle, being a key advisor to BPC. He became notorious as a fierce warrior and a critical cog in the uprising's early success. I'm not sure I see that, here. The British patrol, fighting an insurgency in support of James Stuart (son of a dethroned King), comes across a formation of rebel soldiers, and engages them. Agree. I really love the exchange she and Jamie have in the church when they are surrounded. "Am I not Lady Broch Tuarach? Are these men not my responsibility too?" He would never sacrifice her, but she did it herself. It circles back to the points that were made in the previous episode thread that these two work so well together because they both fearlessly throw themselves into doing what they believe to be right. It is never just about the two of them but about the greater whole.

Neither did I. No idea., so it is interesting to me to watch the politics of this playing out now, especially on the heels of Brexit. I'm reading a book about WWI now (fascinating!), and your statement above made me think of a line from German General von Hindenburg - "Humanity is governed by certain truths, and with all my soul, I believe one of those truths to be that war is the natural state of mankind. We will conquer or we will die." (The underlining is my emphasis.) It's a much larger conversation that includes more than just the plot of this show, but do people even know how to live peacefully? Could Jamie ever live peacefully and without conflict? Great catch! These two...ugh... 100% YES. And I willna say more! (Until we get to that episode.) Do we know this for sure? This is really interesting, and I completely agree. He's a bit like bad manager who only hires staff that are just like him, and then the whole team ends up not functioning properly. Colum has a wider vision, can recognize useful qualities in people that he can utilize for the good of the full Clan. He's had to come about this skill for a variety of reasons - he was the oldest male and therefore groomed to be laird from his earliest days, he did not have the physical abilities of the other kids so he had to compensate for that with mental abilities, out-thinking and manipulating people to get what he wanted and needed. Dougal always had the physical, and by being a brute, he was able to get what he wanted and needed. He never had to hone any other means to achieve anything. Except, even with all of that physical prowess, Colum still out-foxed him at every turn, got Dougal to do his bidding in multiple ways, and was even named Laird despite his disabilities. The shock of that! Salt in the wound! And now, now his protege, his nephew, has done the same thing to him! He was the one showing Jamie how to be physical for all of these years, teaching that physicality was the means to accomplish, to rule, to intimidate, to lead. And now Jamie has turned it and made this a mental game as well. He went completely Colum on Dougal. That has to be astonishing and yet incredibly eye-opening. Jamie has both physical and mental prowess. It had to have a been an "Oh Shit" moment for Dougal.

First, let me say that I eagerly await your posts on each episode, and when I see that the three of you have moved on to a new one and post about it, I always give an excited squeal. For this episode, it was really more of an excited WHOOP!! because this is my favorite episode of the season. (I don't think that is spoilery.) And also let me say you did not disappoint with the commentary. <insert chef's kiss> This exchange so perfectly shows BPC douchiness. He doesn't care a fig for the Scots. They are a means to an end for him. This is a great summary of the politics involved, and it actually makes me sad. The truth of it is that every war involves a "Scotland" - a group of people, a country, a culture, etc - that is seemingly expendable for the powers involved to get what they want. Definitely resentful. I think he knows he just got played by his inadvertent rival. Oh my goodness! This is so perfectly stated. Jamie is everything that Dougal can never be. Dougal has always suspected this deep-down, but Jamie was diminished before, an outlaw, younger, the nephew. Jamie "knew his place" before and stayed in his lane. Not anymore. He's much more formidable now, and Dougal is now face to face with that. She's in her element. She's lived this life for so long and in so many similar instances. No one questions her. They can see the knowledge, confidence, and leadership. They respect her. Everything that was stated previously, and I'd also like to humbly submit Jamie's parting bow to Claire and her small nod in return. The way they held each other's gaze... I've watched that scene more times than I'm prepared to admit, and I feel my heart flip over in my chest every single time. Every. Single. Time. In another season of my life, I studied military history. This show does battles so beautifully. We saw it last season with the various skirmishes, and that skill was front and center here. Again, they have a way of showing the horror of it all in such a real, tangible way but also with a great deal of care and respect. (Incidentally, I think the Battle of the Bastards episode of GoT was one of the greatest battle depictions I've ever seen.) A bad hour of Outlander is still better than most other things, but episodes like this one really highlight the brilliance.

I had faith that you would come around!! The Claire Elizabeth Beauchamp Randall Fraser fan club is always accepting new members. We don't have member jackets, per se, but we do have knit shawls with our emblem embroidered on them. Diana is nothing if not thorough in her research. The books are SO dense, mainly because she researches everything to the nth degree and then edits out none of it. I have learned so much useless minutiae from reading these novels so many times, and I love it. She's a brilliant woman with multiple degrees in science fields, and it really shows in the perfect, minor details like this one.

So much this. You can't help but believe that Jamie understands more about what Claire experienced in the war than Frank does/did. Jamie has been in battle. Frank, though serving in the British military, wasn't at the front. He didn't see it first-hand. And this, my friends, is how we know that Jamie was written by a woman. 🙂

I feel like that has been the whole season. Because... That and... That. Loved these scenes. Our girl has done and seen some things, and I feel like we forget that sometimes, especially when she was in Paris and was so hapless and anxious and not herself. Important to remember, too, that she isn't THAT far removed from WWII, just two years or so at this point. I can't imagine just coming out of a horrific, all-encompassing event like that, only to be thrust right back into one that will be just as horrific, all-encompassing, and downright bloody. And to know it is going to happen. And to know first-hand, not just the historical context, but the actual first-hand knowledge of what war is really like, and to still get up in the morning and ask the other ladies to make bannocks. That woman is incredible. People...uber, die-hard, Obsessanach fans (I don't know ANYTHING about this kind of fandom)...do refer to him as the King of Men. And well, yeah. He is. This episode is my 2nd favorite of the entire season. I love watching Jamie be a leader and learning more about Claire pre-Stones and sans Frank. Plus, how swoon-worthy is Jamie when he says "Commando Raid." In a season that I mostly don't like, I always make a point to watch this one on repeat.

I've been reading the "Daily Lines" for this book for awhile now, but I haven't seen anything in there that directly related to the title. Not to spoil you too much to the later books in the series, but Claire has several bee-gums in her garden. An incident happens involving the bees in Book 6 and it stays with her. Also, she really loves her bee hives. I'm trying not to think it means that she's gone somewhere, like somewhere in the future, because I won't appreciate that so much.

Annnnddddd, I'm adding that week to my Outlook calendar as "Out of Office"!!

I think Beaufort Castle is the one Lovat still lives in, & they mentioned something about him having had a bunch of wives. I think Simon is the only legitimate heir. Lord Lovat recognizes or acknowledges the various children he has sired, if you will, but Young Simon is the only male that came from a marriage. Oh, yes! You're right. Nice catches. Jamie's real asset to Charles is that he is Lord Lovat's grandson. He could potentially gain Lovat's support for Charles, as he tried to do with the trip to Beaufort Castle and was marginally successful. My take is also that Charles is too egotistical and has his own head so far up his own ass that he wouldn't realize that he could potentially alienate a supposed ally with the forgery.

Hear hear!! Really set a tone of gloom and dread for the whole season. I want more of them at Lallybroch, just being happy and healing and loving and fabulously attractive in their woolen homespun. Yeah not a fan of the whole white witch sub-plot in this one. Have we learned nothing here? Ha! I love this, so I'm tagging along with it. I always try to be faithful to the culture and spell things correctly, but she doesn't deserve my effort. PREACH!!! He comes across to me as incredibly entitled. Well, of course, Jamie would want to fight for him because he believes EVERYONE wants to fight for him. Ah, to be royal. Even an exiled royal. Yeah, this seemed a little insensitive. She knew Claire was pregnant because she sent those spoons, right? She did know the spoons were a baby gift? I believe so, and if that was the case, she would surely realize that the baby was lost because they didn't return to Scotland with one, even if they didn't convey to her specifically what happened. She could have at least thrown in a "Someday, he'll talk to your bairn like that" or some kind of soothing comment.

This episode was so powerful and moving. The first guest was incredible, and I would gladly watch hours of that conversation with him detailing the battle. When he spoke of the Highlanders reciting their ancestry before they charged into battle, wow...the emotions. Caisteal Dhuin!

Thank you both. I appreciate that so much. It was several years ago, and I've had two other babes since then. Miscarriage is treated so differently here, almost as though it is inappropriate to talk about. I had already delivered a healthy, thriving child at that point, and I knew nothing about miscarriage. As a result, I assumed because I already had a baby, I was in the clear and everything would be fine. It wasn't fine. And the treatment, both medically and emotionally, during and after the fact were awful. The sentiment among the doctor and nurses really was just move on and have another one. We never discussed it with our friends and family. We just moved on like we were supposed to. I'm so sorry if I implied that I thought you did. I didn't think that at all. Your comments didn't crush me - Claire's confession that it was her fault hurts my heart. I like to think that they are showing us where Claire is comfortable and where she is not. For all her crazy upbringing, she does not adjust well to certain situations. Unlike Jamie, she can't just hop in and read the room. If that isn't what the showrunners were going for, then I'm just as confused as you are! This exchange breaks me. I cannot imagine going through all of that alone. No one to hold your hand, smooth your hair, dry your tears. Not only had she lost her child, she was lying there in peurperal fever, near death. And no Jamie. Gah, I can't even consider it. It would have been so easy to simply let go and let it consume her. And it also makes me so sad to think that there was nothing they could do for her. The number of women who had to have lain in similar situations for centuries boggles my mind. Women truly are warriors. Oh goodness, SAME! It didn't need to happen and certainly didn't need to be seen. We all know this is fiction, but that was a child actor portraying this.

This is a huge selling point of the show, for me anyway. In how many other shows have we seen a sexual experience from a female gaze? How many other shows are able to both accurately, yet sensitively portray things like the frightening (f-ing terrifying) reality of childbirth in those times, as well as the regularity, yet heartbreaking truth of miscarriage. This was my first time re-watching this episode because I just can't with this one. When have I ever seen a woman losing her child depicted so accurately? So graphic, so heartbreaking, so flat-out messy, and so true. Like many other women, I've lived this, and the portrayal here is honest and sensitive. I appreciate this show so much for that. For me, the Claire we've seen so far this season has lost herself after she seemingly found herself after going through the stones last season. In many parts of the Paris storyline, I didn't recognize her and she didn't seem to recognize herself. Completely agree. Violence on children is off-limits, as far as I'm concerned. Ha! This made me think of The Princess Bride and the iocane powder scene. Maybe he's slowly been tippling the cascara and building a tolerance for it? When she tells Mother Hildergarde that it'll "just be one more thing that [she's] lost in Paris," I took that to mean a shut-down of emotions, a resignation of her feelings, what's happened, and the circumstances. This is just one more thing she has to do and a burden she will add to the load she is carrying. I also got the sense that she had been in the hospital for some time and that a few weeks had transpired before she learned from Fergus what really happened. I'm hoping so anyway because ouch and eww and no, otherwise. I have so much to say about this because...ugh....and yet I can't because unsulliness and such. Let's just say, Jamie's hair is a long-time topic of conversation on these boards and others. Crushed me. In a vast majority of miscarriages, it is never the mother's (or anyone's) fault. It's just the body's way of responding to something that isn't quite right, so it always hurts me to see women blame themselves for it. And I certainly did. Maybe if I hadn't worked so much, stayed off my feet more, taken better care of myself...on and on. But it isn't anyone's fault, it just happens, and that is incredibly difficult to accept. Women, we always try to care for things and fix things, and she couldn't fix this. In terms of creating a stressful situation, trying to do something they really had no ability or business to do, being demanding, being unempathetic, asking the unthinkable of your husband, yeah...there's some blame there. But hindsight is 20/20 and everything is easier to analyze and solve after the fact. When you're in it, you feel like you are doing the right thing, the best thing, otherwise you wouldn't do it. So yeah, I forgive you, too, Claire. This is a great observation. It's just the expectation that he would do this. It is what is done, protocol, if you will. He didn't even finish, so it wasn't like it was for pleasure. It was like putting a punctuation mark on the sentence. It is what you do to end the transaction.

This is really interesting. I didn't know that. My parents opted for a Courthouse wedding, and they've never seemed less married to me than other couples who had a religious service, but I love the points you both made. J&C not only have a deeper relationship, but they've been bond deeper, as well. I feel this is a fine time to further reiterate my strong belief that Jamie>Frank. Thank you for this opportunity. Which really circles back around to points that have been made over the last few episodes that the writing this season is a little flimsy in spots.

Ok, the clothes are fab, but I expect no less from the French. Ah! Right you are! Further proof that Jamie went back to the house to get it, I suppose.

I rewatch, too, just not this group of episodes.

This is my first time rewatching these, and yeah...definitely remember now why I don't rewatch these. If I recall (in)correctly, Jamie doesn't leave with his sword when he and Fergus go to Madame's House of Jollies, so unless Murtaugh...aka the most sensible person in the whole city...comes back to get it, Jamie can't fight with it at the duel. In some instances, yes, in some others, no. Trying to make a good person out of BJR will get you nowhere! Just ask Claire - it got her punched in the guts!

Yes, it is exhausting. Paris is exhausting. ALL. OF. THIS. I believe, either Suzette or Magnus tells Claire that Jamie has gone to the Bois de Boulogne, after explaining what happened when Jamie went to ME to clear up BPC's debts. There's a lot of confusing dialogue in this scene, and I watch while running which isn't the most reliable way to go about these things. And this made me spit coffee on myself. For real. Would have made more sense if he had gone back to Scotland, England, anywhere else. A major irritation of mine about this entire story is that SO much important dialogue happens "off screen." We saw it with The Wedding, when we didn't get to hear Jamie tell Claire about his family. We don't get to hear/see the apparent reconciliation of J&C after the "Don't Touch Me!" and you KNOW that would have been good, because they have such intense, incredible dialogue, and sadly, we don't get to hear Jamie tell Murtaugh about Claire. I don't even care if it had been in Gaelic, I want to hear what he said and what he told him to explain it (and then have someone translate it for obvs.) Speaking from personal experience, you know it is a bad sign and yet you don't want to or can't allow yourself to believe it. In my head, the timeline is - 1. Message from ME to go pay BPC's debt. 2. Jamie leaves with Fergus. 3. Apparent confrontation with fuckface Randall. 4. Jamie returns home, gets sword, takes off brace, writes note. 5. Jamie goes to the duel. 6. Claire comes home, finds note, leaves the house. Oof, this one was a lot to digest. I feel like I need puppies and chocolate.

Yes, absolutely. It was almost confusing because it jumped around so much. Yes to this. Graham even mentions that the MacTavish clan had a tartan for all different types of activities. Sounds fun. What were they? Why did they need different patterns? I also thought there were way too many Outlander call backs in this episode. I love the show, but I'm not stupid. I don't need you to provide me with the example and basically humble brag about the research that goes into the show. I do want to have a dram or 5 with Sara Fraser. She seemed like a lot of fun and the stories she'd likely tell...it would be a good time.

Oh, this IS so interesting! Though he is younger and more "inexperienced," I think he does know more and understand more about love. He came from a loving family, he was close with his parents, especially his father, and Jenny. The extended MacKenzies and Frasers may have some questionable internal dynamics, but his immediate family seems to have been very emotive and affectionate. We don't really know that about Claire. Was her Uncle affectionate with her? Did he have a partner from which she could witness interactions? Where and from whom did she learn about relationships? We've already seen Frank and her struggle to communicate and emote to each other, falling back to sex as a means of communicating and feeling (not that you don't feel plenty when doing that but...) She is more sexually experienced than Jamie, but does she have more relationship experience? And not just romantic relationships, but the most formative ones between family and friends? From what we've seen, Jamie had the more stable, comfortable life surrounded by a loving family and friends growing up and pre-BJR than Claire did. And yes, I hang on every word of these conversations. It is absolutely shocking and horrific. I'm not here for the time travel aspect, so I only have a slight care for the loop that if she isn't with Frank, she doesn't go to Inverness, doesn't go through the stones, and doesn't meet Jamie. But why should that matter now? By the time it happens, she'll be long gone. She's with Jamie NOW. It isn't as though she's going to go POOF in 9 months when Frank's ancestor isn't conceived. Besides, who cares about Frank?!?!?! (Which I yelled at Claire at various points through this episode.)

Obviously, I love this story and I adore this show, so not only am I clearly willing to suspend reality and hand-wave A LOT of details in the plot, but I'm also quite good at it to have kept up with 8+ books and 5+ seasons... But, this story, this episode, and this Claire was tough even for me to take. The way she treats Mary and Alex, no. The way she treats Murtaugh, nope. The way she treats Frank's future, get out. The way she treats Jamie, how f-ing dare you, Claire?! Claire isn't stupid, nor is she unfeeling, nor is she vicious. So, for me, her time in Paris is kind of a crazy departure from who we've established her to be. And this where some of the poorest writing comes in, both in the show and the source material. None of this makes any sense. I know this is no book talk and such, but in several important instances, the show writing improves upon a storyline in the book. This isn't one of them. I'd like to think that this Claire is done intentionally to show how out of her element she is, but I that isn't clear to me from the what I've seen. Precisely this. You said it better! Yes, stupid writing. It makes no sense and is completely counter to what we know about Jamie, and Claire, for that matter. Jamie is intelligent and reasonable. He would absolutely understand this argument. Yes, this made me roll my eyes. It felt like a contrivance to give Jamie and Claire a moment to talk about the baby. They could have just sat and talked about the baby. Or Jamie could have bought the spoons in Paris. Or, if the family heirloom component was so important, they could have had Jared leave the spoons for them. What's the point of Analiese in the grand scheme of things? Is she intended to widen the wedge between Jamie and Claire, further complicate their already strained relationship? Is she just some pretty petty foil? Is she supposed to be merely an insipid French courtier? Right now, she's annoying. This is an interesting point. To me, the "future" (Claire's past) would almost seen like it isn't a possibility, it isn't a reality. She plans on staying, so why does Frank being born have any bearing on her new future? (But then I have to remind myself that she apparently loved him (blech) and so I guess she would want him to have a chance to be alive.) Finally, Jamie's final words..."Don't touch me, Claire." Yeah, they really speak to the whole episode.

I believe him, too. I dinna like the thought of my literary boyfriend frequenting brothels, ye ken? Also, how dare you have such a reasonable assessment that makes me reconsider my original feelings?!?! And you went there, and now I'm a puddle. Yes, it's their story, and the show does a good job of showing it through their eyes jointly, as opposed to the books where it is mainly Claire's viewpoint.

So, @gingerella, you brought up so many great points and questions with this episode, but I canna speak to them without being spoilery, for the most part. And for the sake of full disclosure on my part, I'm not a big fan of intrigues, plots, conspiracies, political machinations etc. so J&C's whole scheme here really wears on me, and it seems to be the sole focus of the show at this point, and I just don't care for it. Thus, if I seem a little grumpy in my responses here its because I don't like this plot. But I do like Jamie and Claire and Murtaugh, and I will keep chugging long for their sake. I appreciate your comment here, and it made me think twice about my previously established feelings with this scene and Jamie's frequenting of Maison Elise. Alas, I still f-ing HATE this entire scene and Jamie's behavior. (However, you did make me feel a wee bit guilty over my feelings because Jamie is coping, and this is how he is fighting to get this piece of himself back.) A positive on this scene, the dialogue within and the emotion behind their fights are so powerful and so well done. Yes to this. This dialogue was taken directly from the source material and it is so perfectly delivered here. It keeps me hanging on through all of this far-fetched political bs. This show has these amazing moments of emotional brilliance. Finally, we should give props to Andrew Gower for being so absolutely loathsome, sniveling, and annoying as BPC.

Honestly, I would watch hours of outtakes of this show, especially if it involved multiple scenes of Graham tricking Sam into punching himself in his own balls. Also, is it just bred into Scots that they can rock a cable knit? American men don't look that good in knits. I felt like I was back in college hanging out with all of my guy friends, drinking, and listening to them say hilariously inappropriate things to each other. Ahhhh...