belbar

Yeah that could be the case too. Echo chambers are terrible though. And yeah, count me in for the happy club about Speight directing again next season. So much talent, so compressed must be dangerous.

Well Jensen today seemed to be proud of what they did in the last episodes, but at the same time he said that right now the writers are trying to figure out how the hell they're going to deal with it next season (where they're heading with it or something like that). Apparently by June they'd already have a certain idea. As reassuring as usual.

I know. And maybe you're right too and they have no idea of what's going on. It's just kinda hard to imagine someone so out of everything. I know we have said before that they are tonedeaf to fans but that would be a little too far even for them. That's all I'm saying.

I have no idea how they work about it, but seem to have people dedicated to it. In the rankings they seem to follow facebook, twitter and Instagram, which seems to be the strongest one for them. Instagram is full of it. It's crazy. Hard to ignore.

That would be very interesting but the pictures that we saw with him in period clothing had him walking a very regular street. Kinda with a classic vibe too but the clothes people were wearing were normal. Nowadays normal I mean.

LOL

Bingo.

I think is pure terror. I know Apocalypse season 5 is over and in the past. But Dean clearly said that last time they're in that position Sam ended up fighting with Lucifer, dead and in hell. And here we are facing a new apocalypse, Sam dies and Lucifer shows up. What would you think? If you're implying about the possibility of a redo of soulless Sam, I don't think that he's gone that far. Right now it must be the inminent danger. The other shoe about to drop.

100% agree.

I found a little weird Sam's expression when he arrived to the camp. He looked ashamed and there was no reason for it. But then again nothing about Sam's behaviour has made much sense lately and his terror/fear for Lucifer after having him at home and playing Dr Phil with him last year felt like fake and a little overacted on Jared's part, but he's been told to always play straight the script so who knows where it comes from.

You're totally right. Their personal stake doesn't exist. No need for them as vessels. That story ran its course for sure. But all seems to indicate that there'll be a new confrontation of some kind. Clearly AU Michael will be coming to our world. Jack, Mary, Lucifer and them will be involved somehow. Just to be sure.

If this had been discussed prior to the episode I'd have said that the main reason for whatever happens would be the need of saving his mother and Jack. But right now, after their conversation in the last scene of last episode about a new apocalypse and the fact that what he feared the most came to happen (his brother death and Lucifer presence added to it) I don't think that he's happy at all right now. Yes they found Mary and Jack, but again I think he's terrified of the possibility of a repetition of the last Apocalypse, meaning losing Sam and adding his mother to the mix is not helping either

I hope this is not considered as an spoiler because is just pure speculation, but I think that it'll como to be related to his mood, the state of mind that could lead him to it. Thanks Awesom (for the advice and directions), I just did it. I hope it works.

I think that Dean's expression was actually shock at seeing Sam alive. And when Lucifer showed up after him it was more like a "what the hell?". but in his state of mind logic calls more for worry than anger. I guess it was more in the line "and now what". He's been dreading that something awful was going to happen to his brother, and few hours later he lost him. No way he's going to be anything but first relieved and them probably scared to death again. IMO But yes I agree that their moods this season have been off. Oops sorry. I don't even know how to do that.

I don't think so and frankly there's no reason either IMO.

Or that thanks to the fact that Lucifer crossed to the AU he could finally meet his son. I think they're considering Jack one of the heroes.

Exactly this is my peeve. This is what it all has come to. IT's not their story anymore. They're there as an afterthought waiting in the background while the alledged secondary characters run all the action, and at the end they show up for "the magic emotional moment" and that's it. And as long as Dean cries and Sam is a hero for a hot minute all is good and dandy. But hey, at least in twitter there are troops of teenagers screaming to Dabb and company every single week "Best episode ever!" So it must be good, and I'm wrong.

Totally agree with all of it. It's all about shock value. Fan service and a few moments here and there. It's not a coherent story anymore. I'm not even sure what this season is about. ouch

Thanks for expressing it so well. Yes the never ending grace dripping from Lucifer was weird to say the least. I guess it's just another case of super duper when convenient. And yes the saddest part is that hey have a good story to begin with and some great actors (sorry I don't think that Speight is one of them). In fact Jensen's performance of the trauma was brilliant and moving. And that's exactly why it's a shame that instead of making the most of it, they only repeat once and again the same scene. After a second viewing I stand by my initial opinnion that it was just a repeat of Red Meat with some fan service seasoning. But hey Berens is a great businessman, he just edited the old script, made a few edits and resold it. Great deal.

If you ask me, Berens is working hard at paying his way to be the showrunner or main writer for Wayward whatever. He's been drinking the koolaid of Singer and Dabb by buckets.

I'm sorry but I don't agree here. Those scenes were the perfect opportunity for something really terrifying, but it was so clear what was going to happen that it took all the tension out of it . I don't think that any of it came as a surprise to anybody. As Crowley said this has become all so predictable that is not funny anymore. We need some fresh air. I love Jensen's dramatic scenes as much as anybody, but come on, enough of screaming "Sammy" and crying. What once was the OPT has become repetitive.

As you said this was Red Meat 2. It was that bad. And now I'm officially a member of the "I vomited in my mouth" club

I'm afraid that you seem to be right.

I wouldn't have used a familial relationship between a father and a son when brothers could serve the same purpose. It's a pet peeve of mine, a parent has different responsibilities to their child that a siblig has and Dean is Sam's brother not his father. But even with this pet peeve out of the way, I see your example as valid but repsectfully disagree with your conclusions. Sam's emotional reality based on your example, and on canon I think, is that he feels small and little in the shadow of such a huge presence like his brother, that he feels jealous and insignificant in the shadow of a brother who does nothing (from your example again, Dean has no fault in this) to make Sam feel like he has to live to some impossible standard. So wouldn't be more healthy for Sam to understand why he feels like that rather than ask Dean for a much more equal realtionship especially when he was the one who trashed it with lies, secrets and betrayal of trust? Sam was the one who made the relationship unequal and lopsided and yet Dean is the one who must change. I repeat my previous point, Sam says nothing about what Sam can do to make the relationship better and more equal but he asks for Dean's complete trust and "equal status" after betraying that trust and deciding via his actions in season 3-4 that he was the one calling all the shots. Are his feelings valid? Sure. I don't need feelings to be good to consider them valid. Is Sam shifting blame for them instead of trying to understand which one of them made himself feel like he had to be smarter and stronger and which one of his actions made Dean lose his trust in him? Yes. Again, IMO etc. I have to agree with this. Sam needed Dean's unconditional support because Dean's distrust and anger was making things worse for Sam who felt so guilty about his actions. That's all that counted, not Dean's hurt, nor his feelings nor his betrayed trust or his pain. Sam needed Dean to get over it and Sam got it. And that's the narrative the show pushed imo until the end of the season. Dean having been the in-house character conditioned to take the blame and the responsibility of Sam's (and often John's) emotional distress caves in and gives Sam the keys of the car so he can finally drive the same way at the end of the season he has to accept that Sam can take on Lucifer. And that ends the complex, interesting arc of Sam's various choices and actions in season 4. Let me grow up because that is Dean's responsibility. P.s. Thanks for the welcome! When can I start to applaud you for your comments? + 1000

Yep that's what I 'd thought too. It was the only "valid" reason for his reappearance. But the episode description (accordingto the article linked) says that Gabriel, Cas, Sam and Dean must work together (literally those words). Maybe the work is offering his grace though (but I would'n call that work. Who knows)