Bergamot

So Soldier Boy was not killed by the special secret anti-Supe weapon -- he IS the special secret anti-Supe weapon! Cool! I think that somehow Soldier Boy's power nullifies or erases the powers of other Supes? Kimiko had better be okay, though, or I will never forgive Kripke! 😠 I got kind of worried though when she was so happy about her and Frenchie doing "one last job" and then retiring to Marseilles! Because we all know what always happens on TV or in the movies to the character who only has one more day to go before their retirement..... 😟

This is very interesting, @tennisgurl, because I was watching an interview with Kripke where he talks about Homelander. He says that in many ways you can define the mythology of The Boys as the slow unraveling of Homelander as he heads toward a complete sociopathic break. So what are the guardrails and barriers that are keeping him from just destroying the world? Kripke says that there are parts of Homelander that are still human; his ego is so fragile and he needs love so nakedly that there are still things keeping him in control. Once he starts realizing that he doesn't need those things that are keeping him in control, Kripke says, "God help us all." So as you point out, maybe we are reaching that point where those guardrails and barriers are starting to be removed. 😳

Me too! I like the character of Mother's Milk and it will be interesting to see what they do with this. As you say, though, the season is really crowded and I hope that they spend the time to develop this story. As well as for others -- I am afraid that some of them, like Frenchie and Kimiko, might get lost in the shuffle. The writers have good ideas for the characters but there are only so many minutes in the season. Yes! I mean he never even shows a hint of nervousness, no matter what the situation. It is kind of eerie! They haven't gone into his personal history much -- he is just always there, at the top of Vought, and apparently all-powerful. In regard to Edgar, I thought it was interesting to see his connection to Victoria Neuman, and the fatherly relationship that he seems to have with her. Is it possible that we are actually seeing evidence that Stan Edgar has a soft spot?! Or is reading bedtime stories just another technique in his arsenal for controlling Supes?

Sure, why not? I see no reason why they should not talk about any of their current or future projects. I was just responding to a comment that JP was the only one to bring up the prequel. I haven't had a chance to watch the con videos yet so I wouldn't know.

And maybe that was what he wanted. I have no idea if this is an issue for anyone at the cons or not, but if it were, this would make sense, wouldn't it? JP would be the one and only person who would be able to bring it up without having any concerns regarding whether he should.

Jensen was on Good Morning America to talk about The Boys, and got a chance to mention The Winchesters as well! 😀 https://twitter.com/jacklesfanacc/status/1534158970935468033

The more that Homelander gets backed into a corner, the more interesting -- and scarier! -- he becomes as a character. There is always so much tension in the scenes between him and Edgar, who so far is the only one to not back down from him. I keep expecting something cataclysmic to happen when they face off, but Edgar always remains amazingly ice-cold sure of himself and Homelander always steps back.

I agree with you, but more than that, I reject the assumption that fans who are able to attend those cons are somehow of greater significance or more representative of those who are "real" Supernatural fans. Going to a convention doesn't mean that you are a "superfan", it just means that, unlike me, you have the money to spend on going to a con! 😊 I second this recommendation -- I loved Fringe! And for those who might want to binge it now that it is over, which is how I watched it, I can assure you that unlike Supernatural, the show gave its fans the gift of a very satisfying series finale!

That reminds me of the scene where Homelander comes close to reducing the Deep to a bloody smear on the floor merely because Deep got a better time slot for his television interview than Homelander did. The Deep is reduced to cringing and fearfully stammering that it was a stupid, ridiculous mistake, because he is a complete nobody compared to Homelander and should never go before him. Then afterwards, he tells his wife with a hopeful, pleased smile that he thinks his encounter with Homelander went pretty well! A-Train is the same way. Both of them will do literally anything, sacrifice anything, including the last molecule of their self-respect and even their loved ones, in order to be back in The Seven. Personally I don't get it, but I think it is one aspect of the show that is actually true to life. It is scary, but there are people who are so addicted to that kind of fame and power that they really would do anything for it.

Ha! I remember that song! Even though, strangely enough, it was a hit, radio stations were banning it, so the record company executives tried unsuccessfully to claim that Timothy was not a third miner, but was actually the miners' mule! Which actually sounds like something Vought would try.

The Boys Cast Says RIP to Timothy the Octopus Chace says that Timothy was a "good listener" and was "gone too soon". He also says though that Timothy "didn't taste very good", which, I don't know, is kind of insulting! 😏

I have a couple questions about this episode. Why is Butcher so cruel to Ryan when he leaves him? Is he so angry, and so bitter and defeated at the accusation that he has turned out to be just like his father, that he decides he might as well go all the way and become the person he hates? Or maybe he just wants to keep Ryan at a distance, either because he thinks it is safer for him, or because he knows that Ryan can sense his temporary super powers. But in either of those cases, he did not need to say what he said, he could have chosen a kinder way to separate himself from the child. From the look on his face when he says it, I don’t think he actually holds Ryan responsible for Becca’s death, but I don’t know why he said that to him. There was no need, and the damage he has done may not be repairable. My other question is from the flashback story with Soldier Boy that Grace tells them. At one point, before the shooting starts, she hears Edgar say to Black Noir, “Will the others go along?” And Black Noir answers, “Everyone but Gunpowder”. What is this about? I assumed that if there was some kind of conspiracy regarding Soldier Boy’s disappearance that it was orchestrated by the CIA, that is if he really wasn’t killed by the Russians. But now it looks as if Vought was behind it, and that the other members of Payback were in on it. Maybe that’s why they took out so many of Grace’s men, rather than because they were uncontrolled/untrained and/or incompetent. I thought that the hysterical declaration from the Countess, announcing that Soldier Boy has been killed as she points dramatically to the helicopter, sounded kind of fishy, like she was acting from a script.

Octopuses are actually very intelligent! https://www.nhm.ac.uk/discover/octopuses-keep-surprising-us-here-are-eight-examples-how.html

I was like, omg, is he really going to eat Timothy?! NOOO!! Timothy is his friend! He has kids! He is praying and begging for his life! That was horrible. 🤢 Of all the over-the-top things we saw in these first 3 episodes, for some reason that was the one time I had to look away from the screen. I couldn't watch! I don't know how sorry I felt for the Deep though. It was his choice. Deep seems almost likable sometimes, and he is always getting pushed around, but when you come right down to it, he was willing to swallow his friend alive for the opportunity to be in The Seven. That's who he is.

So many little things I loved in this episode! The movie Vaught produced based on The Deep’s memoir – entitled, of course, “Not Without My Dolphin”. Komiko’s childlike enjoyment of the trip to VaughtLand, including the songs that the Countess sings (“Chimps Don’t Cry”!) The Red River Institute for Supe children who were orphaned when they accidentally killed their parents with their powers. (I especially liked the pleased reaction of the teacher when Hughie tells her that he and Starlight want to adopt a child: "This is fantastic! With a superhuman mother, there is far less chance of parental fatality!" Ha!) I had wondered how he survived the explosion the night that his mother died. But if Teddy is a Supe, does that mean that she had him injected with Compound V? Or is it possible that Ryan is not Homelander’s only son?

I could be totally wrong, but I didn't believe it was Homelander that Butcher was talking to in that one scene. At first I thought that Homelander had really come to see Butcher, and that he actually sat down at Butcher’s table to talk with him. But then when Butcher looked away for 2 seconds at the end of the scene and Homelander suddenly wasn’t there, I was thinking that the conversation was actually all in Butcher’s imagination. I think maybe Butcher was actually talking to a mirror reflection of himself, admitting to himself that what he wants “more than anything” is to go mano a mano against Homelander in a battle to the death. The fact that Butcher has access to superpowers with the Temp-V now makes it possible, he realizes, for him to fulfill this deepest desire of his. I also think this is the case because the Homelander in that scene just did not sound like Homelander to me. Homelander would never talk about “sharing a destiny” with someone like Butcher or respectfully say that he “looked forward to” a scorched earth battle to see which one of them would be left standing. Homelander does not believe that anyone, much less a mere ordinary non-supe human, is his equal. He thinks of himself as a god who can squash any mere mortal who challenges him like a bug. Also, the frustration that Homelander shares, his anger against "Vought and the Bureau", at all the "wheeling and dealing and giving and taking, just to keep everything exactly the same", sounds exactly like the frustration that Butcher is feeling about the past year and that he expresses to Hughie. (Plus I don’t believe that Homelander would just silently disappear when you are turned away from him, as opposed to making a dramatic exit while you were watching.) So this scene goes to the heart of Butcher’s motivation for using the Temp-V. He doesn’t just want the destruction of Homelander; he wants to take him down personally in a final apocalyptic battle.

I would not say that I am not interested in hearing stories about Supernatural any more. And sometimes, even after all these years, something new comes out about the show which I enjoy hearing. A recent example being how we just learned that when Mary told Dean, "You are not a child", that Dean's response -- "I never was" -- was in fact an ad lib by Jensen. I loved this SO much, because of the way that it showed how deeply Jensen understood the character of Dean and how he was willing to stand up for the character. On the other hand, when I look back at previous cons, two of the moments that I loved the most in the last few years had nothing to do with Supernatural. There was the con where Jensen talked about his experiences as King Bacchus at Mardi Gras; I watched the video of that multiple times! And there was the con where he talked about filming "Rust" -- of course that experience ended tragically, but I still remember how much fun it was to hear him talk about it then. Both of these were solo panels by Jensen, if I remember correctly. I would love to hear Jensen at a con now talking about and telling stories about The Boys, but I'm not sure that would even be possible in the current setup. And I'm sure that Jared's fans would like to hear him talk about Walker and other things he is doing. So I think they ought to try more solo panels, see if they can freshen things up. And broaden the focus to other projects, which apparently they are planning on trying. Of course, since I am not the one buying tickets -- I only read about what happens at cons and enjoy the pictures and videos from them -- I guess maybe what I would prefer does not count for the con organizers. On the other hand, how are they going to know what people might be willing to spend money on if they never try anything new?

Thank you DeeDee! That is a great interview, one of my favorites of the ones I've seen! And a nice job by the person doing the interview. When they are talking about what they call "Temp - V", and how you never know what powers you will get from taking it, because it is just random, Jensen laughingly says something about how "obviously Hughie would never have chosen what he gets!" Did we know that Hughie gets temporary Supe powers too? I wonder what power he gets! I loved the part about Kripke's glee at the consternation of his actors at what they are asked to do. "That's the thing about Kripke -- never expose your weakness!" LOL! That is like, the quintessential Kripke, isn't it?! 😄 Can't wait for the season to start!!

I agree; that's a good description of Crowley! And I am glad that Crowley's motivations were kept ambiguous to the very end, because that's who Crowley was. In "All Along the Watchtower" he tells the Winchesters beforehand that he wants to be on the winning side against Lucifer, and that he is betting on them to be the winners. But why did he sacrifice himself to enable the Winchesters to trap Lucifer on the other side of the rift? Did Crowley really want to help save the world? Or was it because he hated Lucifer so much that he would do anything to get revenge on him? Or maybe it was something else. I have wondered if Crowley felt suicidal at the end. All those centuries of scheming for power, but he admits that he has realized that he hates his job as King of Hell, and is weary of constantly fighting to keep his throne. His grand plan of ruling with Demon Dean at his side, which I think he really really wanted, ended in failure. Maybe he was so tired of it all that he just wanted to end it. I like that we can't know for sure. For me too. For example we see all of Rowena's bitter, relentless scheming to get back at Crowley, her giving Sam the spell to kill him and demanding that he follow through with it -- and then later on in the show, when Crowley is actually gone, suddenly she is all broken and sobbing with grief for her dead son, screaming at Billie that it isn't fair and that she wants him to be brought back. It wasn't believable to me for the character.

I think maybe that Dean joining up with Crowley to find the First Blade was an illustration of the state of mind he was in at that point. When he leaves Sam at the end of “Road Trip”, he is in a very dark, self-loathing space. He tells Sam that he is “poison”, that anyone who gets close to him gets hurt, that he has Kevin’s blood on his hands and will burn in Hell because of it. I think Dean joins up with Crowley (instead of killing him, as he threatens to do) partly because Crowley offers to give him some information that might be useful, but also partly because Dean feels he is already damned, so he might as well be working with a demon as with anyone else. He is already on a reckless and self-destructive road that will lead to him getting the Mark of Cain. The other thing is that Dean and Crowley are tied together throughout the series in a pretty complicated way. Like a lot of the other supernatural beings they encounter, Crowley is fascinated by Dean and drawn to him (“Dean Winchester completes me”). He always has an ulterior motive when he helps the Winchesters, but Crowley never quite reaches the point where he takes action to go ahead and take Dean out. And of course the same could be said of Dean on his side, that he never quite reaches that point. In spite of this I think Dean would have been able to kill Crowley if he had to though. I like what Cain said in “The Executioner’s Song”, where he says that if Dean killed Crowley, it would give Dean some “strange, mixed feelings”, but if Dean had a reason, he would do it without remorse. I think this is true. I think a parallel relationship for Sam would be his connection to Rowena, who is also someone who is clearly evil in the beginning but who ends up being their ally. I prefer Dean and Crowley though, partly because I felt like the show ended up sentimentalizing Rowena too much in a way they avoided with Crowley. In the process they smoothed away a lot of the sharp edges that made her an interesting character. Both Rowena and Crowley ended up sacrificing themselves to help the cause of the Winchesters, but I thought that Rowena’s death was again, too sentimentalized and a little overdone, as was Sam’s grief for her afterwards, as if they had been soulmates. Like I said, I prefer Dean’s “strange, mixed feelings” at the demise of what Crowley called their “buddy comedy”.

I thought I would take this to the Dean Winchester thread to discuss a little more!

Kripke did say that Ryan's powers are greater than Homelander's. He mentions it in this article: https://www.denofgeek.com/tv/the-boys-season-3-ryan-homelander-powers/ But Kripke didn't really say if that was because he was a natural-born Supe instead of a lab-created one. Maybe it is something that no one really knows, since it sounds as if until Ryan came along, it was believed that a natural-born Supe was impossible. Dr. Vogelbaum tells Homeland that Becca's pregnancy was a "completely unprecedented medical condition". When he hears this, Homeland says "I thought I couldn't", and Dr. Vogelbaum says, "So did I." Which makes sense, because if Vaught had known that Supes could breed baby Supes, I think they would have been using this new way to obtain them. It's kind of horrible to think about, but they probably would have been experimenting with it, maybe even breeding two Supes together to see what they got. I guess as far as we know, Ryan is the only one?

I think that if the show had ended with Season 5, this would have been an amazing way to end it! When it was announced that Season 15 was the last one, I was hoping for a "We have work to do" ending. Instead we got Dabb flatly announcing, "This is the end of these characters' journey." And JP saying he didn't want anything that implied that they might still be hunting, because he wouldn't want their adventures to continue after the show was over. So I thought, "Oh well, so much for my preferred ending!" My next favorite ending would have been something like the series finale of "Angel". I really thought that was awesome, with Angel and his friends facing a battle of impossible odds and certain doom at the end. And Angel saying, "Personally, I kind of want to slay the dragon" and then saying "Let's go to work" and the screen cutting to black. I loved it! To me this is kind of similar to the original Season 5 ending, in that the heroes go out fighting to the end -- but since you don't actually see it ending, there is always the thought that somehow, maybe, it didn't end there for them. The one thing I didn't foresee was Dabb doing his best to make sure that the door to the series was slammed completely shut in the end. It's like he was determined to make it clear that the series belonged to him, and by doing so he did his best to steal from the fandom any sense that it belonged to them as well.

This is very interesting to me to think about! For me it's part of what makes John a complex and fascinating character, that we get to see him as a young man who is decent and sweet, but we also see him as an embittered older man whose choices did enormous damage to his sons. I don't know how much foreshadowing we might see in the prequel, but it is an important part of the story of the Winchesters. Because it is not just a story about angels and demons scheming and interfering in the lives of this family. It is a story about human beings, and who they were as people, and the choices they made, and what happened as a result. It is not just a story about supernatural evil, it is a story about a HUMAN tragedy. That's what made the show work, in my opinion. These thoughts could also apply to Mary -- I remember her finally admitting to Dean that she was a "hard and closed-off" person. What caused her to be the person she was? What about the choices that she would later regret? Going back to John, I was thinking about how I didn't even recognize the John that was brought through time in the 300th episode "Lebanon" (written of course by Andrew Dabb.) As I said at the time, John was suddenly bizarrely all calm and supportive and understanding, instead of being the John we actually had seen him become. John of course was not just a two-dimensional evil villain, but he was without a doubt impatient, bullheaded, bad-tempered, rigid, secretive and obsessive. Were these qualities that were always a part of his character? Was the potential always there, as @ahrtee says? There is an interesting moment in "The Song Remains the Same", where a young John, who is very angry, demands to be allowed to draw the angel-banishing sigil to protect them from Anna. "I don't care what it is, where does it go?" he says curtly. "I am not useless; I can draw a damn sigil." And when Dean tells him to let him do it instead, because it needs to be drawn in human blood, John immediately picks up a knife and slices open his hand in order to start drawing. And Dean laughs a little and says, "All of a sudden, you ... you really remind me of my dad." I think it was kind of a telling moment in regard to John's character.