Wayward Son

I honestly can’t remember where possibly a s3 dvd special feature, or the s3 companion, but I’m fairly certain I remember hearing the whole Ben is so like Dean thing from TKAR was a directors choice and not so heavily emphasised in the original script.

In the interest of not restarting the argument from the other evening I am going to try and not reply to you at a textual level i.e. my views on the characters, but at a meta level i.e. what I think the writers had in mind when they formed this storyline. IMO, based on how things played out on screen, Jeremy Carver never intended to break the co-dependence and in fact wanted to make it clear to viewers who complained about it that it would forever be a part of this show. When he first became showrunner Jeremy mentioned that he had a three year plan which would have covered seasons 8, 9 and 10. IMO this plan was to analyse the co-dependence and ultimately conclude that for all its faults that was the best way for the brothers relationship to be. Season 8: In this season we see Sam attempt to break away from the co-dependence. He is left to assume Dean and Castiel were dead at the hands of the explosion following Dean's death and made the decision to try and move on with his life rather than resort to something drastic such as a deal to bring Dean back. IMO Sam's decision to quit hunting after Dean's death was not OOC in and of itself. He was always portrayed as the one less enthused with hunting and even now when he has embraced it he mentions he hunts because his family are hunters. So I could buy Sam leaving the life in a scenario where his family are no longer around to live it with him. However, IMO Carver's agenda of portraying this as a bad thing to do was shown in how the situation played out. Sam didn't give up hunting in a reasonable manner. He literally ran off and left Kevin and others like him to their fate without a backward glance. The writers made sure to show us this when we heard all the voice messages Kevin had left throughout the year. and that is the part of the equation I consider to be OOC and arguably character assassination. IMO without an in story explanation such as a mental breakdown this is not how Sam would have handled quitting hunting. He would have made sure to first save Kevin and then give his phone to another trusted hunter such as Garth. That way Sam was out of the life, but Kevin and others like him were still getting the help they needed. In addition to this, a large focus of the season lay with Dean's hurt over Sam 'abandoning him for a girl' (again a way of making Sam look as bad as possible) and ultimately the season ends with Sam admitting he was wrong to 'abandon Dean'. So season one of three examined an attempt to leave co-dependence behind and ultimately concluded this was very, very wrong. Season 9: This is the season where they turn to look at the co-dependence itself through a storyline which IMO demonstrates the darkest aspect of the co-dependence. Here the writers wanted us to see Dean save Sam's life in such a way that Sam is robbed of his basic autonomy and right to self-determination. Dean thought that Sam would rather die than allow possession and therefore took the choice out of Sam's hands as he couldn't face the idea of a world without Sam. The purpose of this was to show the audience that they weren't unaware of the problematic aspects of the brothers bond and looking at it through rose tinted glasses. In the first half of the season we got to see the negative impact of Dean's decision. It put him into a position where he needed to tell Sam further lies to cover up the first and keep him safe, Dean was made increasingly uncomfortable as Gadreel asserted more and more control until ultimately he killed Kevin using Sam's body. Then Sam learnt about what Dean did and ultimately he expressed this anger during an angry speech at the end of the Purge. However, this is when the writers agenda began to truly show. Rather than allowing Sam to keep his anger to the matter at hand (Dean lied to him, Dean took his personal autonomy and saved him for Dean's sake rather than Sam) they downplayed his legitimate points by adding in the ridiculous blanket statement that Dean only does stuff when it doesn't hurt him. And while it could be strongly argued Dean did act in his own best interests in that particular scenario it certainly isn't the case always and makes Sam come off hateful rather than legitimately angry. Dean certainly wasn't protecting himself from harm when he condemned himself to save Sam from hell and of course Dean puts himself into danger every time they go on a hunt. IMO making Sam's words unnecessarily harsh was a deliberate choice and shown in how they ended the scene. Rather than the camera following Sam into the hallway and showing his conflict as he realised he went too far in his anger the episode ends with a look at how devastated his mean words made Dean feel. Then Season 9 deals with continued conflict between the brothers until Sam is the one facing a scenario where his brother is willing and ready to do so. Here we are told Sam lied about not being willing to do to Dean what Dean did to him invalidating his legitimate complaints further and making him a hypocrite. Ultimately, season 9 concludes with the writers and characters basically saying "yes, this is messy. Yes it can lead to other people getting hurt as collateral damage, but this is how the brothers are and they aren't going to change! They tried the whole letting go thing and it didn't work". Season 10: With Sam now fully back on board the co-dependence train it is time for him to show us that in action. The season opens with him forcing a cure on Dean against his will (personally I don't see the two as the same, but the writers want us to IMO) just as Dean forced a possession on Sam against his will. Furthermore, we see Sam wantonly causing collateral damage by leading Lester to a crossroads demon. Sam's main arc of the season then is saving Dean from the mark of Cain at all costs, and against Dean's wishes, to make up for what the narrative presented as a mistake in season 8. He succeeds in doing so at a terrible cross which leads us into season 11 where the brothers suddenly start getting along better than they had in years now they've both realised their co-dependency is a part of who they are and they've accepted that about themselves and the other.

Fair enough I can definitely see why you feel the way you do. I still think it won’t be Sam, but I can definitely see your point about why it won’t be Dean. Id say my likelihood ranking (from most likely to least) is currently 1. Dean 2. Newly Introduced Character 3. AU Michael (in an ironic sort of way) 4. Sam 5. Everyone Else (by virtue of Misha, Mark P and Alexander not being in the episode)

I’d say they can be ruled out since it seems like Mark P and Alexander aren’t in the episode either. I’d say the best bets are Dean (who I’m going with, Sam (though it really wouldn’t fit him imo), AU Michael in an ironic way or a newly introduced character.

If we follow your logic then Sam is out too as he has demonic blood coursing through his veins and we were told he was altered at a molecular level when he consumed enough to take out Lilith. Since Alexander doesn’t seem to be in the episode either, ruling out Jack, IMO it’s either Dean or a newly introduced character.

Fair point! Personally, as I mentioned when people mentioned the possiblity of the title referring to Cas when it first came out to me the descriptor "A Most Holy Man" better fits a human character since Angels aren't technically men. However, I could definitely see them twisting it to mean that so I wouldn't rule out your spec either :)

Ah thanks for clarifying what you meant :). And now that I understand it I can see where you are coming from. Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if they shift the Jack stuff to Dean since they've been building it up as Dean is the one whose behaviour he mimicks and the one he seems to want the approval of. They already shifted from Cas as the main pseudo father figure last season to Sam as the main one this season so another shift wouldn't surprise me. Although I do agree with your point that it seems Dean's depression storyline is done in the eyes of the writers and they now feel it is time to begin exploring the impact events have had on Sam instead.

What are you referring to when you mention Dean/Cas to Sam/Lucifer? I'm not being snarky, but I haven't seen Dean and Cas' storylines as overly connected this season. So far Cas' storyline has been he's dead, escaping death, brief reunion with the brothers and Jack, getting captured with Lucifer and now escaping from capture. While Dean's storylines have been dealing with the fallout of his losses, the development of his relationship with Jack, the mysterious thing he and Sam need to do that Billie referenced and now work on a way to save mum. I haven't seen much Dean/Cas connection this season in terms of plotlines. So what are you referring to? Again not being snarky or dismissive just seeking to clarify what you mean :)

I was just looking at the spoiler sheet and Episode 13x15 Title: A Most Holy Man Written by: Andrew Dabb & Robert Singer Director: Amanda Tapping Filming Dates: January 15 - January 24 Airdate: March 8 Castiel? Probably not Guest stars: Other Spoilers/info (newest to oldest): J2 filmed several scenes on location, one at a coffee/sandwhich shop Only j2 have been spotted on location and it looks like Misha has been at home, so our odd for him in the episode are low… Location filming was done at night in the rain. Orlando convention to occur during filming. With the confirmation that Misha won't be in this episode, or if by some chance he is it won't be enough for an episode intended to be Cas centric IMO it's all but confirmed the title is in relation to Dean. Cas won't be in it so it isn't some sort of reference to him. Although since he's an angel the descriptor 'Holy Man' never fit him anyway. Sam's supernatural role has always been portrayed as unholy if anything - demon blood, vessel of Lucifer. While Dean's the one who has the whole 'righteous man' mythology around him. Although it's not something I particularly want I really wouldn't be surprised if this episode is the beginning of a return to the Michael and righteous man storyline so many Dean centric fans on here want.

Sorry, I wasn’t trying to nitpick at you. I was just wondering if there was a reason known to people who regularly use Canadagraphs why they categorised the actors the way they did. Thanks for sharing these by the way :)

Is there a reason Alexander is listed in recurring, but Misha and Mark P are in Best Actor? Not trying to be nit picky. I’m just wondering if there’s a reason I’m missing since all three are regulars at the moment.

Since I don't want to be warned I am not interested in restarting the debate from yesterday, but I want to quickly answer a question I was asked yesterday in a non argumentative way. While I am not particularly pleased with Dabb's overall lowering of Castiel to a bumbling idiot who always messes up I can usually find parts of Misha's performance to enjoy and appreciate. I credit Misha's acting ability for allowing me to continue enjoying the character despite the terrible writing so that's one plus to watching. I also find myself appreciating the wide array of secondary character the show has provided us in recent seasons such as Jack, Jody, Crowley (at least until his death I mean), Donna so the episodes they star in are always a delight to me also. I enjoy the overall lore of Supernatural and the unique feel of the shows verse. I can usually enjoy the character of Sam when they focus on him as a hunter rather than (IMO) the more toxic aspects of his relationship with Dean. I can even on a very, very, very rare occasion enjoy a Dean moment. When I was talking about feeling sick to the pit of my stomach I was referring to back when season 9 aired rather than the show as a whole, and as I explained in the Small Talk thread I actually did stop watching for 2.5 years due to my issues with this storyline and to a lesser extent season eight. Thankfully, while I've had my complaints about the writing since season 9 (the current handling of Castiel for instance) there has been nothing in season 10 + that has truly offended me as a viewer the way the possession storyline did so I'm enjoying the show a lot more now than I did back when the possession storyline was the key storyline of the season.

You’re entitled to watch the show for your own reasons. I however did not sign up to watch a show where I feel sick to the pit of my stomach and utterly repulsed because they decided glorifying and condoning a supernatural variant of rape is acceptable. To a certain extent both. Thanks to the writers Dean is a person who would commit Supernatural rape if they deemed it necessary and according to many in here this is IC behaviour for him so I think Dean deserves my hate for what he did here.

I haven’t seen any such posts, which isn’t surprising since this site unfortunately is becoming more and more Dean centric.

Fair enough although to be fair I’m not the only one who dislikes one of the brothers. I’m not going to resort to naming names since they aren’t currently in this conversation, but I can think of at least two users who don’t attempt to hide their utter disdain for the character of Sam and I don’t see them being criticised for not liking Sam. And to be fair at least those of you who condemn Sam in season 8 got to see Sam admit what he did was wrong and that he should have looked for Dean. I never got Dean telling Sam he was wrong to play a key role in the supernatural form of rape of Sam.

I wanted Dean to admit that what he did was wrong, that he crossed a line he shouldn’t have and would never do it again. That doesn’t mean he’ll never try to save Sam’s life, but he won’t rob Sam’s agency to do so. Dean is perfectly capable of having limits where Sam’s life is concerned, remember “Id rather let him die than see my brother become a monster” back in Lucifer Rising? I don’t think they should have done this storyline in the first place, but if they really had to then it should have ended with non-con being a new line Dean won’t cross. Unfortunately they didn’t go that route and had Dean proudly proclaim he’d do the same thing again even though it cost Kevin his life. I’m never going to get what I needed to feel closure re this storyline and therefore I highly doubt I’ll ever forgive Dean and stop it tainting my overall view of the character. It’s unfortunate, but it is what it is.

I really dont understand how fans seem unable to comprehend the fact there were more options available to the writers than a) Sam dies or B) Dean plays a key part in the supernatural rape of Sam. There wasn’t. There was a third option I already mentioned in posts. Dean could have chose to tell Sam everything saving him would involve. We could have seen Dean struggle with the possibility of Sam saying no, but realising it was Sam’s right to choose. Sam could have said yes much to Dean’s surprise perhaps convinced by seeing how distraught Dean was by the possibility of losing him. The episode has the same end result - Sam is possessed by Gadreel, but hey Dean wasn’t complicit in Supernatural rape as it was something Sam consented to. The first half of season 9 could have largely played out the same only an emphasis on both brothers growing increasingly uncomfortable with each occasion Gadreel surfaces and takes over. Since I think the whole ejection thing was a retcon introduced for this storyline they could have made that a lie which would be revealed when Sam does try to eject him. It ultimately culminates with Samreel killing Kevin and Dean using some other method to free him. If they needed it to lead to the MOC arc they still could have had Dean feel guilty about persuading Sam in the first place. I actually wouldn’t have blamed Dean in this setting, but it’s in character for Dean to take the blame for things not his fault. Other fans are welcome to excuse a form of supernatural rape, but I don’t and never will. And I don’t think “but it had to happen or the show would end” is a valid excuse either. The writers had more options available to them and chose to go with this one and I’ll judge the characters accordingly. Thanks for the clarification. I hadnt actually read that one. Personally I don’t think that happened, but to each their own. I mean that in general I know you don’t believe it. I could see things happening during demon dean, particularly their night with the triplets, but that’s about it :)

Oh I know that. You were referring to some people believing Dean and Crowley had sex. I’ve only read people speculating Demon Dean and Crowley had sex during their time together so I assumed that’s what you were referring to. My apologies if it wasn’t. I’ve just never read fan spec that Dean and Crowley slept together prior to his demonisation at the end of season 9.

I could have sworn Julian’s comment was more along the lines he wasn’t sure, but he didn’t think it was the real Death. And yes I meant Cas. This is what happens when I’m posting at 12.30am.

I don’t understand how it wasn’t Sam’s time, but IMTOD, Advanced Thantology or Red Meat would have been Dean’s. Are you saying Sam would have healed on his own if Dean and Gadreel hadn’t interfered? She was not Death during Red Meat. According to AT that transition only occurred after her death at Sam’s hand in First Blood.

Well they did have their night with the triplets. Who knows how much direct interaction that involved ;) :p IMO narratively Crowley wasn’t presented in the same way as Ruby. Ruby was presented as out and out evil and a completely manipulative bitch. Crowley on the other hand was treated as a frenemy, someone with his own agenda but a weird care for the brothers. Then his time on the show got to end with him making a big noble sacrifice. IMO, most likely due to Crowley’s longevity, he wasnt presented in the same way Ruby was. Dean was also portrayed as going into the whole thing with his eyes wide open while Sam was an idiot who fell completely for Ruby’s lies.

Did Sam remember seeing Death? I could have sworn he said at the end of 9x01 all he remembered was the angels falling and their conversation in the Church. However, even if I’m wrong the show has since had Dean remember his near death experience talk with Billy. IMO the whole you don’t remember thing is early seasons lore the writers have chosen to ignore in the same way reapers are now angels or Lucifer is now the older brother LOL For me Death being real, or at least it is someone posing as him, makes the most sense. If he wasn’t then that leads me to the big plot hole “where was Sam’s reaper while all of this was going down?”

I was referring to Dean trusting Benny specifically which I see as closer to Sam and Ruby than Dean and Crowley but YMMV. And as I explained earlier both scenarios you referenced were followed by Sam doing much worse in a far less sympathetic light. So I stand by my belief that Dean is the Gary Stu of this show. He’s either right, or on the rare occasion he is wrong this is later overshadowed by someone else making a far worse mistake than he did. As I said IMO for balance Benny should have been evil and utterly hoodwinked Dean in the way Ruby hoodwinked Sam. It would have kept the brothers balanced with both having made stupid mistakes. Instead Sam’s the idiot who ran off with a demon in scenario one and Sam’s the petty jealous jerk who was so mean to Dean’s vampire friend in scenario 2.

Yep. It might sound petty to you, and heck maybe it is, but IMO for balance making Benny evil would have been the fair thing to do. Sam’s ally Ruby was evil, Castiel’s alliance with Crowley ended in utter disaster, how come Dean gets to be right when the others aren’t? How come Dean’s objections got to be reasonable (since he was right and all) but Sam’s were shown as negative. Im not talking at a textual level I’m talking at a meta level. Why should Dean have been the only ones the writers allowed to be right about their dubious supernatural ally? Why wasn’t he presented as badly as Sam and Cas had been previously portrayed? Other than apparently Dean’s too precious to make the mistakes of the mere mortals around him.

Taken from Bitch vs Jerk. This post is just about outlining my thoughts on what is real and isn’t real and not about Dean’s decision. If our discussion gets into Dean’s decision we can move back there :) My opinion of what was real and was not real in Sam’s mindscape during I Think I Am Going to Like It Here is based on my interpretation of similar events that occurred before this. In every instance where we’ve been shown what is happening from the perspective of a dying character (Dean In my Time of Dying, Bobby in Death’s Door and Billie in Red Meat) a reaper has appeared to guide the character into the afterlife. Tessa appeared to Dean during IMTOD, a Male reaper whose name I can’t remember off the top of my head appeared to Bobby and Billie appeared to Dean in RM. If we go by that pattern then a reaper should have appeared to Sam as he was dying in ITILIH. However, no one other than the figure claiming to be Death appeared, so I can only conclude that Death was Sam’s personal reaper. What I am open to is the possibility that it was actually a regular reaper posing as Death for some unknown reason. Either way, whether it was Death himself or another figure pretending to be Death, I believe the figure was not just Sam’s subconscious due to the precedence set in similar scenarios before and after this. In regards to Bobby and Dean IIRC we know the Dean that appeared for most of the episode was not the real Dean as they cut back and forth between scenes in Sam’s head and the actions of the real Dean in the woken world. So we know that figure wasn’t truly Dean. Likewise I don’t view Bobby as real as Im fairly certain Death’s Door established that everything, including Rufus, was a manifestation of Bobby’s memories and only his reaper was real. With that in mind it makes sense that Bobby was only a manifestation of Sam Psyche like Rufus was a part of Bobby’s. Although I’d need to rewatch Deaths Door to be absolutely certain re Rufus and Dean. So to quickly sum up I believe Death was the real Death, or at least a third party pretending to be him, based on the established pattern of a reaper always appearing to guide someone dying into the afterlife. I believe Dean wasn’t real (aside from the final scene where Sam said yes to possession) because the episode cut back and forth between Dean in the woken world and what was happening in Sam’s mind. I’m leaning towards Bobby not being real, but I’d need to rewatch Death’s Door before I 100% commit to that belief.