jojozigs

This show is really starting to lose me. First season was a tightly written character Driven drama. This one seems like one wild goose chase after another. They added a neat character in OB but everyone else seems to have become 1 dimensional. What are we even doing with B-15 and Renslayer? B-15 was a hardcore loyalist turned revolutionary. Now she's a TVA loyalist again? Because there's a McGuffin to fix? S1 Mobius went from TVA loyalist to on team Sylvie/Loki, saying "I'm going to burn down the TVA" and to Renslayer "You know where I'd like to be? Back on my timeline living my life" to "no I can't find out who I was or I'll be sad". And Renslayer just casually murdering 35 people because they didn't say "ok" fast enough to her offer? Because she's mad at Victor Timely/HWR? What does she even want from them if she hadn't squished them? They're just like... doing stuff because the plot demands it. Instead of the events organically changing them. There were a couple good lol worthy moments this season but man the first season was just so so so much better. I feel sad. Maybe they can fix it in the last 2 but I'm not too hopeful. I am here for Miss minutes being revealed to be a total psychopath though, whereas in S1 she was just sus as hell. This has been a tension we've had to roll with since S1. How much are they the same person vs not the same is always in the air. Quotes like "you can do this, because we're the same..." vs. "Because I'm not you..." Regarding their families they have a conversation about their respective (adoptive) mothers on the train. In Sylvie's timeline, a goddess of mischief was born of Frost Giants and was adopted by the Asgardians instead of the more usual god of mischief. She's the same person in terms of the role in the timeline ("temporal aura") but also not necessarily related in a genetic sense. She likely has a sibling equivalent of Thor since they seem to have the same mom (Sylvie got nostalgic listening to Loki talk about Frigga). But still not the exact same person, since different timelines...

Thanks for thoughts everyone Based on last season I think of Moiraine as single minded in pursuit of her goal of helping the Dragon defeat the bad guys. This is her warder. They shared a mind all last season, so he already knows her plan is to help the Dragon. And that is still the plan. If Lan was going to betray Rand at the Blasphemy him being the dragon, he would have betrayed Moiraine already for the reason that she wanted to help the dragon. She should want as much help as she can get in helping Rand. Her not being able to channel is all the MORE reason that she needs Lan. I also don't think that she would allow her worry about Lan's personal safety rule the day. Again for the reason above. She's already essentially enslaved him (willingly but still) and put him repeatedly in mortal peril in pursuing goal of finding the Dragon and helping him/her win the day. So I'm left with drama explanations (self-pity?) OR that she wants Lan to go to the white tower but for some reason isn't telling him this.

I'm Enjoying everything so far except I'm thoroughly confused by the situation with Lan and Moiraine over the first 4 episodes. Presumably, Moiraine does not actually think that Lan sucks as a fighter so she can't trust him, and that's why he has to go. Because he just killed two of those fade things which are super tough and did a gillion other awesome things last season. Dude's a badass. I had figured that whatever it was she had to go do was really important that he NOT be there. But now we know that she left in order to go stop Lanfear / rescue Rand! Why wouldn't she want Lan with her? Fighting blood-covered witchy ladies seems pretty above board and something he'd be down with helping with I would think. Is Moiraine trying to force Lan to go to the tower to help out the two rivers girls? If so, It doesn't seem like he's particularly inclined to do so. And also I don't see why she couldn't just, like order him to go (or even ask him) without all the dumb drama. Maybe there will be some reveal about what she's trying to do here but for now I'm confused. Anyone?

yes but if we are gonna play the game of "whatif" it's Tyrion's fault Dany hasn't already disposed of Cersei via a quick and decisive strike against the REd Keep when she was most vulnerable. So, ultimately, fuck Tyrion. I say this even as I belive he'll be the winner in the end.

Pregnant people count: Gilly/Sam:: yaS Jon/Dany: ????????? Jaime/Cersei:???????????????? euron/Cersei: ??????????????????????????? jaime/Brienne:????????????????????????????????????????????????????/?????

HOLY SHIIIT i just saw this the last epsode was nothing this was. everything. Brienne and Jaime. jaime: You are a fucking LIAR. like in Season 6. I know why. but no. FUCK YOU. Varys. you are the worst. Suck a bag of dicks you warmongering asshole. Tyrion. it's all your fault Sansa. it could work out if you could try for 2 seconds unless you want Cersei to win?!?! Arya. yes. you go with the hound. That's not you. Hells. Yes. Still think Jon and Dany both die. At this point i think they kill the fuck out fo each other.

So... I always thought Arya would kill Cersei and Jon the NK. Who kills Cersei now? Or maybe they make peace somehow?

So... question re: Cersei's fate. I thought Arya would kill Cersei and be the younger and more beautiful queen and/or the Valonquar (Or, maybe Sansa is YAMBQ and Arya is Valonquar). I thought that would be the whole point of Arya becoming an assassin. It would be a twist because we expect it to be Jaime (Valonquar) and Dany (YAMBQ). So what now? I can't imagine that they would have Arya kill both the Night's King AND Cersei. So will it really be Jaime / Dany? Or just Jaime? One thing I thought of given Brienne is still alive (whew!) - could it be that Brienne (the "Beauty") is YAMBQ? If Jaime and Brienne take her down together...

I really LOL'd when they had Felix wondering if he was a host and Maeve being like "No darling..." Can't believe some people still think he's a host after that gag?!

The point is that Ford did not write "Man in Black Stabs Dolores" into his program. How could he? Unless you want to pull that MIB is a host. Which... just no. Maybe there was another mechanism by which Dolores would be fatally injured if the man in black hadn't shown up at that moment. Perhaps Ford himself would do it.

Don't worry - he wasn't. We now know that Teddy already was devoted to Dolores before William showed up. Arnold tells Dolores she'll need some help (to massacre the hosts / kill him) and Teddy will do anything for her. Those events happened about 3 years before William and Logan arrive at the park. I feel you. But, what is free will anyway? Generally we do what we are programmed to do (by experience, habit, and emotion). Androids of course are easier to re-program than humans, but other than that detail is there much difference? It doesn't mean our existences have no meaning. I agree. I wish they had gone full evil with Ford - I felt that his portrayal in ep 7-9 (in my interpretation, as a total bastard who craves power and hates everything living) was more believable than what we got this episode. I feel like the character was written in a somewhat misleading way in order to let the plot happen.

So like I am not one to whine too much because overall I liked the show. However I was pretty disappointed that William really is the MIB and the MIB really is basically a monster. And a boring one to boot. The man in black really was just seeking a more in depth game. NOT a search for robot consciousness. Not a way to save Dolores. Not a way to become a host. Just better gameplay. They have him talk about killing Maeves daughter, and how she seemed "alive". How that changed everything for him. But here he has Dolores doing the exact same and he just mocks and abuses her, prodding her for clues about the maze... like he has forgotten all about The Maeve awakening being his motivation. Dude it's happening again right in front of you. And can we now conclude that his abuse of Dolores and teddy in ep 1 really was just a bit of fun and had nothing to do with triggering her walkabout? Because he didn't bring that up at all, and it would have made sense to. I dunno I guess I just find that much of a heel turn to be hard to take. So the William likes to kill hosts now that he's had "a taste" Suddenly. Gross. And doesn't think that Dolores can possibly be real if she forgot him. Like that's her fault, somehow. Like Dolores now choosing to murder a bunch of debatably innocent people, its tragic, but almost more out of character than anything. It gives me the sense the creators believe that everyone is a murderous bastard inside, which really I don't believe at all.

Nah it has to have been Ford. Ford was completely unsurprised to see an alive / unwiped Bernard. This must mean that Maeve found Bernard and revived him as part of Ford's programming. Felix (yes Felix!) is the only reason that Maeve is still in the park. Not to mention Sizemore is even stupider than the 2 tech dummies. There's no way he could have programmed something as sophisticated as Maeve's escape. That was like a month long process. He was too busy working on his "masterpiece" cannibal. Plus we know their plan was to smuggle something out in Abernathy's body. I would guess it's probably the core code for building hosts outside the park.

OK I just wanted to put down some predictions for next episode for the record (probably spectacularly wrong but it will be fun to see how wrong) 1) I think that Ford is planning to use the Robots achieving "sentience" as a path to world domination. It follows his character perfectly, in that he has been increasingly demonstrated that Ford has absolutely no regard for life of any kind - he holds both host and human intelligence in equal contempt. The upside of the hosts is that they can be controlled at the touch of a button. He cares about power and domination of others, and although he's master of his domain right now, I think he's tired of the limits of the park. It's too much of a stretch that he wouldn't know about Maeve's Robot Revolution. So I conclude that he not only knows but is supporting it. It was demonstrated last episode (tragically) that Ford had a back door into lobotomized Clementine. Even expert programmer Bernard wasn't able to see it. I think Ford has a way he can ultimately take control (or influence) all of the hosts after they have completed their goal in leaving the park (which I think they can do provided they are put into cold storage given the Sizemore plan with Abernathy - I think cold storage hosts have the bomb in their bodies removed because plot). Ford will trigger backdoor access and achieve whatever plan he has outside of the park (ultimately, domination of all life, sentient or otherwise). It will be so tragic and painful to watch Maeve and the other hosts believe they have finally found freedom and sentience at last to then be turned in to puppets again by Ford, so I think it will make a good season ending twist. 2) Following up on 1: I think that Ford is planning to transfer his consciousness into a host as part of his instigation of the robot rebellion. It's probably the secret host he was building that Teresa saw. His human body is old and dying - that's the only disease they haven't cured, after all. It will be a perfect host he is creating that HAS no back door but has the ability to control all other hosts and has all its stats turned up to 20 or whatever. The hosts will be in a new form of slavery, but probably it will be one they prefer, at least for reasons of vengeance. Also they can cast another actor and save money. :p 3) I am not sure what to make of the Delores/Teddy/William/MiB/Arnold/Maze situation at this point. I know it's supposed to be the central mystery but I'm inclined to think we will learn only a little more before the season is over. It will be further clarified that Delores was indeed the one who killed not only all the hosts but also Arnold, and how exactly that happened plus a full reveal of MiB = William. The only thing I can guess is that The MiB may believe the Maze is a way to move his consciousness into a host (see #2) and is planning to do that. He would rather live on as a host-slave in the park with Delores then continue his life in the world outside. Again this has the benefit of lower cost for future seasons. 4) I can only hope that Arnold has put his complete consciousness into a host replica of himself (because I love that actor) and is hanging around in Westworld somewhere. That way, we can have Arnold mk II as the hero of next season, having lost our hero Bernard so tragically. I believe this is plausible in-universe because of the question on the Westworld website about whether you are still you if your body is totally destroyed but an exact copy is made. 5) If all of the above happen this will set up for next season Arnold vs Ford in new form. Arnold's allies will include transferred MiB plus Delores. Maybe Arnold will have made a copy of young William for MiB to use, to please Delores (if he's been alive and in the park all this time, he would probably know about their relationship, even though it occurred a few years after he died). Ford's allies (slaves) will include Maeve and everyone she frees next episode. Robot war will result, in some form. I disagree. I watched the first 7 episodes without any outside assistance and had no trouble following it. Honestly I might have preferred the reveals last episode without knowing the twist ahead. It's pretty common for people who use forums to make this assumption but I think it's almost always wrong. Game of Thrones is a good example - many people who read the books assumed that the viewer-only audience must be totally lost/confused but that proved not to be the case. If it was incomprehensible then only a tenacious few would stick around - the opposite was the case as the audience grew all the time.

Ok i have a question that (I think) is mostly unrelated to parallel time periods / MIB = William. MIB is in search of the Maze, which he believes Arnold either created or is inside of. He finds various clues. First that guy's scalp/skull in ep 2 (who was that again)? Then he thinks that Hector knows something - eventually the little girl / Hector's daughter, who I assume had an arnold-implanted clue triggered. But then the clue she gives is that MIB should go look for Armistice (snake clue) who in turn says that Wyatt is who mib needs to seek out to find the maze. But Wyatt was just created by FORD, very recently not by Arnold. What are the various theories about this? I guess I can think of a couple ideas... but none of them make much sense to me. 1) the clues MIB finds are an intentional misdirect by Ford. Ford is aware/has become aware of the clues that Arnold left, and that MIB is close to unlocking this easter egg which would destroy Ford's own plans. So he is trying to stop MIB by sending him off on a wild goose chase in this most dangerous storyline. Possibly MIB will be killed by Ford who will make it look like an accident. I don't like this idea since it makes MIB's story basically pointless (since he's just being manipulated by Ford). 2) Arnold somehow set up his trail of breadcrumbs so that they adapt to whatever Ford does to change the hosts / storylines. This would need to be explained to make any kind of sense. But I like it in that it means MIB is really on to something and it keeps Arnold and Ford as antagonists, which I think is correct. 3) Ford is working together with Arnold's "plan", adapting his maze storyline into his new Wyatt storyline. However, I don't understand this because Ford is strongly characterized as being obsessed with having absolute control over Westworld - why would he want to help Arnold in his quest to free the hosts? other ideas???

ohhh... yes. In fact when board lady said that Sizemore should program Abernathy to "have a semblance of a personality and take the first train off the park" I said to my husband "how's that work - won't he explode because of the spine thing?" And then I was wondering if maybe that was board lady's plan (cause an explosion) rather than what she told Sizemore it was for... But, I like this better. By the way how does Sizemore get to keep his job after drunk-pissing all over the giant map thingy? I assumed he was fired. Although, I guess probably Ford likes him as "head writer" because he's so easy to manipulate.

@Izeinwinter thanks for the timeline breakdown. I now think that the MiB believes the Maze is a way to create consciousness in the hosts. His talk of a "greater game" is mostly because if he was more specific it would reveal the central mystery too soon. After Maeve, he is obsessed with making this happen because it could make his life have greater meaning. He probably also knows that a conscious host is needed to "trigger"/"enter" the maze. So he is trying to cause as much suffering as possible since that seems to bring the "humanity" out of the hosts.

I think that Sylvester doesn't know how to do anything with that pad besides "sleep/awake" which don't work on Maeve by this point. On the other hand we know that Felix is a tinkerer who has been teaching himself how to do behavior programming (stuff with the little bird). Sylvester is entirely reliant on Felix. Felix hates Sylvester and is way too fascinated by the possibility that Maeve represents the first "fully conscious" host (evil perhaps, but nevertheless conscious). He wants to believe that HE will make history by helping her emerge and escape. His job isn't that important in comparison. They aren't hosts. Just a stupid, small jerk (sylvester) or a naive, bullied kid trying to make a mark (felix).

So Did William kill almost dead confederate kid? They conveniently avoided showing us what happened by having Delores freak out (unless I missed it). Seemed like he was about to kill him in order to get Delores to keep going with him. Which if he did, not cool. Regarding the maze - it seems like we now know that MiBs obsession with it started with Maeve, not with Delores as most on board with MiB=William had likely assumed. Can anyone remember if we have had a clear, no ambiguity mention of the maze when William is present?

Whelp. Glad to know that Ford holds the same theory of consciousness that I do. Except none of the empathy and all of the desire to make all living beings his pawns for world domination! If Bernard Doesn't murder him and use his blood as face paint I'm going to be sad. Whew. Maeve + MiB Connection runs deep. MiB's description of himself from his wife/daughter's perspective sounded a LOT more like Logan than William. But w/e.

Ok. I was using the terminology that others in this thread were using. A lot of people in this thread before me were stating "these robots are obviously not sentient" etc. I agree that sapient is a more precise term. I don't know that I agree that there is a clear a distinction between "sapience" and "sentience" as you're claiming though. What does it mean to be "able to reason" exactly? How precisecly do we test for this in another individual? Can chimps reason? Dogs? R2D2 (as your later example?) I'm not sure we know enough abou thow human brains function to say that we don't "react to stimuli using... scripts" Certainly we do know that a lot of responses are programmed in biochemistry of particular neurons. And in the more psychological realm, it seems that humans can be behaviorally "programmed" to react in particular ways. What's the real difference here? I agree that memory is a key to causing the Host behavior to appear quite different from human behavior. However, I'd argue that if you wiped a humans' memory every day and then placed them in a setting consistent with the remaining memories, that their behavior would then be indistinguishble from the hosts. In which case, the only thing that prevents hosts from exhibiting behavior entirely consistent with complete sapience is the memory wipe... I think we could all probably agree that a human with short term memory loss amnesia is still "fully sapient"? Doesn't the galaxy consider the droids to be sapient? Certainly Star Wars has entirely robot people in its broadter universe. I don't know exactly where human-built droids fit in (I only dabble in star wars).

How about Cats? Dogs? Rhesus Monkeys? Chimpanzees?

Yes that is probably true. It just seems a little artificial. That's true, with the kid. But, it's a kid... The guy who shot Hector was hardly acting morally, he was plain gleeful about having just shot a guy. And not in a "satisfaction of having just saved people" way. More like "lol i shot him haha". :p i dunno, I think it would be more like being surprised that 95% of people who watch the superbowl only watch because they want to see players get horribly injured/die (which I don't think is the case). Lots of people actually enjoy watching the sport of football. I feel like guests who go in to the world and accept it, and play by its rules are more like most people who play games.

The question isn't whether it's a robot, it's whether it is partially or fully sentient. And no one can know whether any other person is sentient. Unless you think it's impossible for anything except a human to be sentient? But... why?

I heard that too!!! Really cool tidbit. :) I don't know if you've played Red Dead Redemption, but it basically is Westworld with modern tech. I too avoided GTA because I don't like playing Black Hat and you're basically forced to. The game makes it REALLY hard to play straight - especially with the mechanics of driving which was really difficult to do. But, in Red Dead you can be a decent person and still win. You don't have to kill or hurt anyone except in self-defense if you don't want to. Sometimes you have to do things that hurt others to continue the story, but you're doing it to save innocent people so it's at least defensible.