shireenbamfatheon

Yup. Arya's scene about looking forward to seeing death's face really showed how little grasp she has on the magnitude of the storm they're about to face. Every other person is terrified and doubtful about their chances, including many of the older battle-hardened warriors, but Arya's cocky and confident because she can't envision how terrifying these mythological monsters are. That'll change next episode which is a good thing because it humanizes her and emphasizes how daunting the battle is.

No, she can't. The Long Night isn't just a Westerosi myth; every culture has its own variation of it. Melisandre's been talking about it since the moment she was introduced and she's from Ashai. The Night King brings eternal darkness with him. Sooner or later, it will reach Essos as well, and considering the NK has a dragon, it should take him no time to wreak havoc over there with Westeros' population as his foot soldiers. There is no escape for anyone. Dany could fly away on her dragons but she'd just be postponing her own death by a few months. Dany owned slaves in the first season. Irri, Doreah and Jiqui(?) weren't her besties, they were slaves. The woman Dany burned alive for killing her slaver husband? A slave. The villagers her husband pillaged so she could get her throne? They became slaves. She sent Doreah, a woman who'd been forced into sex slavery as a child, to sleep with Xaro and spy on him. She initially went to Astapor to buy a slave army despite seeing firsthand how people were forced into slavery in season one. Jorah, her beloved bear, sold slaves to buy pretty things for his wife. Daario gladly worked for slavers for the right money. Her Dothraki? Slavers. If the idea is that everyone who was once a slaver deserves to die a slow and excruciating death because "once a slaver always a slaver", then there'd only be dragons and Unsullied left in Dany's army. No Dany or Jorah either. But different rules for different folks.

From everything we've seen of the North, that is exactly how it's done. Everyone gathered in the great hall is either a highborn lord or someone important enough to hang around them and listen in on what's going on. Since the Northerners were introduced, we've seen them discuss things in public. Even all the way back in season one we had the Greatjon publicly question Robb's decisions to test him which would have gone very wrong for Robb if he hadn't been up to the task. Really, Sansa calmly wondering about logistics was a lot milder than Lyanna outright calling Jon a disappointment and a nobody in front of everyone for bending the knee. You'd think Dany would take a lot more issue with that than Sansa being cold because she's just had to give up full autonomy over her own home to someone she doesn't know. Can't wait to see Dany being extremely courteous and warm once she finds out she's supposed to bend the knee to Jon. She'd better roll out the red carpet for him once they defeat Cersei.

Regarding the bolded, this was in the same episode where Jorah explained to someone else that the DP was built to protect the people from dragons roaming around in a highly populated area. Dany stressing that it was wrong to contain them made we wonder if she'd forgotten the Meereenese child Drogon killed when it's a significant part of her book counterpart's arc that she eventually forgets the child's name. This episode, with the smallfolk running away in terror, Sansa wondering how they're supposed to feed them, the replenishing resources and so many people gathered at WF make me wonder if we'll see more civilian deaths at the hands of dragons this season because they'll run out of livestock to feed on.

This is a very good post and highlights how Jon's ruling style is very different from Robb's. For all his mistakes, Robb would still listen to his bannermen's thoughts and grievances before weighing his decisions because it's exactly what Ned used to do. Ned used to converse with his people and made them feel included in the decision-making process. Jon, on the other hand, seems incapable of communicating properly with anyone. Shouting "because I said so" at everyone is not a very appealing argument. Rather than calmly explain why he bent the knee and the good he believes Dany will do, he rode into Winterfell and told everyone that he was no longer their leader and everyone had to do what Dany told them because that's just the way it is. His rebuttal to everything is just "the NK is coming!" which is all fine and well, but how does that solve the issue of food, or how they're meant to handle a potential backstabbing by the Lannister army, or what they're supposed to do once the dragons run out of livestock to eat. You'd think Jon would have wisened up after he was assassinated, but he's repeating the exact same mistakes he did back them. At this point, none of these people are suited to rule anything.

Dany: "I'm not a tyrant. I'm here to save you people from evil rulers." Also Dany: "Haha, look at these people I want to rule over run away in terror at the sight of my dragons." Like holy shit what was that scene?

This comes up all the time on here but Dany doesn't care about any of her allies' pasts. If she was really that concerned about her allies' moral compasses, she wouldn't have allied herself with Ellaria and the Sand Snakes, women who murdered two innocent children in cold blood, one of them their own relative and the other her own friend's/Hand's niece, and then betrayed, murdered and usurped the rightful ruler of Dorne because he prioritized the safety of his own people's being over vengeance. Nor would she have allied herself with someone like Yara, who almost won the Kingsmoot by promising her people that they'd return to the Old Ways where they had fun pillaging, raping and killing innocent people. And Tyrion well knows that the Ironborn, including Yara, were raiding and raping Northerners just because they could and that Theon killed two little boys to maintain his hold on Winterfell. Dany looked past all that for the promise of alliances. The woman who crucified random people for killing children allied herself with remorseless child killers because it benefited her in her quest for power. Emilia Clarke's recent nytimes interview is actually pretty interesting because she flat-out admits that Dany is power-hungry. And that's why it's hilarious that people want to paint the Northerners as petty short-sighted morons when they have legitimate reasons to be wary.

Cersei trying to buy Bronn's services to assassinate Tyrion really does put a spin in the "Tyrion is a traitor" theory. At this point, I feel like Friki is clinging to it out of sheer stubbornness and is projecting his own assumptions onto Tyrion's motives. From the leaks, Tyrion comes across as naive and gullible in the first episode, but in no way deliberately deceptive. I think Tyrion is going to be completely shattered once he finds out the truth and that he'll end up being the valonqar in the end, just as Cersei predicted. It'll be a self-fulfilling prophecy and all the more ironic given that Tyrion approached Cersei in good faith despite everything she's done to him. Jon's distaste of burnings shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone who remembers his visceral reaction to Mance being burned alive. Stannis' burnings were never portrayed as being in the right regardless of the victim, and Daenerys' being portrayed just as distastefully isn't misogynistic; it's consistent. The first episode just sounds pretty whatever. Theon sneaking onboard a ship, retrieving a prized hostage and getting away unnoticed when Euron has the most powerful fleet in Westeros. Lol ok. Good thing she isn't being held captive by Ramsay and his twenty good men.

On top of everything you wrote, there's also the fact that Jon's pledge to Dany means that the Northerners and the Valesmen are expected to march to war against Cersei after potentially surviving an ice zombie army. They're already traumatized from their previous war against the Lannisters. Some, like Lyanna and her people, fought alongside Jon and Sansa against the Boltons and are preparing themselves for another war. And then Jon turns up after months of absence and goes "yeah, once this war is over I expect you to fight another war in the south to put someone you don't know a single thing about on the throne you don't give a shit about." They've only just started preparing for the current war and he's already forcing them to join an additional one instead of giving them time to recover from their inevitable losses. It makes Jon look like a callous asshole who doesn't give a shit about his people, and since he knelt after she'd agreed to fight against the NK and can't even answer whether he did it for love or duty, it also makes him look like a selfish one who's just imitating big brother Robb in his foolishness. And like that isn't bad enough, his shock at learning that Dany burned the Tarlys alive makes him come across as a complete moron given that he was so convinced that the North "will come to see you for who you really are," when it turns out that he doesn't even know who she is. They've really done show!Jon dirty. Don't forget that one ally that was captured by a kinslaying, murderous rapist whom Dany turned her back on because she isn't useful anymore? I don't even know what's going on with that subplot except that Theon is the only one who cares about saving Yara when Dany could easily swoop down and burn the Ironborn alive.

I think it can be interpreted as both. Dany in the show has never been shown to have a desire for settling down and living an easygoing life. She never reminisces on being unable to have a child beyond off-handedly mentioning it to the khals and telling Jon (for possible foreshadowing). Tyrion even comments on her lack of foresight in never thinking of an heir. Dany doesn't spend much time talking about Drogo, and unlike her book counterpart, she's never shown to be in love with Daario and has no difficulty leaving him to pursue her ambitions. She never reminisces fondly of the House with the Red Door or being a carefree kid. Like Nutter said, show!Dany very much feels that it's her destiny to be a revolutionary, while book!Dany seems to accept that her main contribution has been death and destruction and that "dragons plant no trees." Every season has Dany come up with some variation of "I'll break the wheel and save everyone." Even at the end of the latest season, after having witnessed literal ice zombies, the conquest for the Iron Throne has just been postponed, and not canceled. The conquest of Westeros is still in the background of her mind. I know shippers want Jon and Dany to either rule Westeros together or walk away to live in peace, but the former is Dany's ambition and the latter is Jon's, as seen by his state of mind post-season four. Jon would be absolutely miserable spending the rest of his life in the south, dealing with corruption and lies and treachery. And Dany too would be miserable walking away from, what Nutter called it, what she feels is her destiny to revolutionize the world. Besides, I think it'd be a great disservice to her character to suddenly reduce her to a wife and mother and ignore her ambitions because love changed her? Jon walking away? Sure. He almost did that in season six. But Dany? Since when?

He was too careful in the Q&A to give any spoilers away, so I doubt it. He's referring what Dany wants and believes, not necessarily what happens. Which fits into what we've seen so far and why I don't believe the show will ever end with Dany just walking away from the throne. Book!Dany may dream about the house with the red door, but it's ultimately a dream she rejects at the end of aDwD. Show!Dany has never been shown to have a similar desire and rejected the dream of a regular life with her loved ones in her vision in season two. She'll either die chasing the throne or win it, and from the spoilers, it's seeming less likely there'll be a throne left to sit.

Is it really that surprising that she'd pretend to be younger because she knew she'd be discriminated against otherwise? Chloe Bennett changed her surname because she faced discrimination due to her Asian surname. Same with Oscar Isaac changing his surname early on in his career for a similar reason. I don't think it takes anything away from their point; instead it just reinforces it.

Matt and Karen went from having zero romantic chemistry last season to all the chemistry this season despite barely having any scenes together for the majority of the season. I'd cringe whenever they'd have their awkward romantic moments in season two, but the recent writing's been so great for them that I'd be ok with them getting together at some point (and ok with nothing happening as well). Now that we know of her past, I can see why it'd appeal to Karen to let Matt think of her as innocent, but that'd be a relationship built on a lie and it really presented an awful power imbalance because Karen was constantly in the dark about Matt's proclivities since he preferred to think of her as someone to be protected and came across as really patronizing. That's why I loved that the show flipped the savior/damsel dynamic on its head with Matt often failing to protect his friends this season, and the church scene ending with Karen saving Matt's life by attacking Bullseye. Not to mention the scene where she told him what it was like to kill someone when it's typically the other way around with vigilante shows. I feel like that's a large part of the Karen/Frank appeal to so many people, whether platonic or romantic. Neither judges the other and there's a level of honesty and respect there that wasn't present between Karen and Matt till now. Really goes to show how much the writing got in the way of their chemistry and that there was potential their all along.

I love how batshit crazy this show is. People are taking it way too seriously. It knows exactly what it is and it capitalizes on it because that's part of its charm. This show is never going to give a realistic take on high school kids or the mob or murder mysteries and that's fine. As someone else said, it's kinda like a soap opera for teenagers and it's always been that way. I mean, season one had Polly run away to a monastery because she'd fallen pregnant with her cousin's twins before he was murdered by his father the drug dealer who also ran a maple syrup business lol. They just embraced that weirdness and doubled down on it and it's glorious. It's not the best show on television but it is the most entertaining one.

Cersei doesn't need to because she can just point to the bigger monster in the eyes of the people. No one's going to look favorably upon the Mad King's daughter invading with an army of Dothraki and a kingslaying kinslayer as her Hand. Randyll was conflicted but in the end he chose the person he considered the lesser evil. It's actually perfect for Cersei because Dany's invasion is the only thing that has likely kept her in power. Cersei's PR is pointing at the person with the worse PR and turning everyone against them. And it's working because the people did cheer at the Dornish prisoners because she's made them hate someone else instead of her. Who's going to riot against Cersei when they're facing a Dothraki horde? And it's not like they don't have a reason to hate the Dothraki given the way they're written. But hey, Dany burns Dothraki alive? It's okay, they're evil. Westerosi hate Dothraki? Those xenophobic bastards!!! Who else in the series is a literal stranger with a horrifying legacy who's seeking to control the Seven Kingdoms under the pretense of wanting to break the wheel to save people from oppression? Dany kinda NEEDS to be accepted as a kind and benevolent ruler since those are values she wants to espouse. Freedom, justice, mercy, benevolence are all values essential to the cause that she's supposedly promoting so, of course, she needs to live up to them. Why tell the soldiers she's there to save them from a tyrant if she's going to act like one during her conquest? Dany put herself on a pedestal. And Jon, easily. Jon's reputation is the reason Tormund and Wun Wun managed to convince the wildlings to fight for him. And Ned, too, which is why literally everyone speaks so well of him seven seasons later and why the Northerners made Robb KitN. And a large part of Margaery's image played into her being a good, selfless and virtuous person who cared about the plight of the smallfolk. She had an entire season where she went around gaining the love of the smallfolk because she understood how important it was to have the support of the people. Don't you remember the former slaves turning against Dany in Meereen? Or the people of King's Landing during season two? PR is important. Strength alone is not enough to hold the throne. Joffrey was powerful at the time of his demise. Doran hadn't lost a single soldier when he died. Tywin suffered a humiliating death. Powerful people die all the time because they gain the hatred of their people. Isn't this contradictory? Dany only wants power because she wants to help people, but it's okay for her to step on the very people she wants to help so she can gain power because she only wants it for their sake? How does that make sense lol? She had to be talked down from setting fire to KL twice within a few weeks' time. But it's okay because she's actually doing it for the sake of the people who don't even want her there? Do you believe she'd have left Westeros if Margaery and Tommen had been in power at the time of her invasion and ruled with justice with the support of the people because she just wants what's best for everyone? Why did it take her months to let Jon rule over the people who'd chosen him, and even then only because she'd fallen in love with him, if she's only conquering people for their sake? Daenerys idolizes Aegon the Conqueror, but like Tyrion said, Aegon built the wheel that Dany claims to want to destroy. It's one thing to want to conquer a land because you want to or because you believe it's your right; it's another entirely to base that conquest on promises of freedom, justice and peace and then step on those very promises at every turn. Sansa didn't betray Ned in the show, no matter how much some people wish she had. Why am I not surprised she's brought up every time someone discusses Dany. I mean, you can disagree with it all you like, but Dany needing, and at times failing, to set herself apart from her father is precisely what they keep emphasizing in the show. If the Targaryens didn't have so many mad rulers, Daenerys wouldn't have to prove anything. The Smalljon wasn't exactly portrayed as being good in the show so I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. Umbers AND Targaryens can be bad. It's not mutually exclusive. But only one has a legacy of mad tyrants they need to work on. And the Northerners weren't okay with being ruled by the Boltons; they were weary of war, had lost most of their kin, their numbers were heavily depleted and the two biggest Houses in the North had joined the Boltons. They didn't want to fight what seemed to be another pointless war where they'd lose even more numbers for the sake of two Starks when they'd lost so much family because of a Stark. Robb's actions had negative consequences on the rest of his family. That's why it matters to have the support of the people. Now Jon's been gone for months and he's losing that support. Do I hate what they've done with the North? Absolutely. Is it really that unbelievable given how much they changed Robb's age and storyline? Not really. In the books, the Freys and Bolton men are being picked apart one by one because people hate tyrants and Robb was written so differently. They can't film that because television is another medium and they're streamlining the story.

Jorah, who'd been with her the longest, also expressed concern about her actions earlier on all the way back in seasons two and four. Barristan, Tyrion, Jorah, Varys... That's a long list of people who're shown to be reasonable and observant who've expressed discomfort at her actions. Like Eyes High and Lady Chaos said, not only do Missandei and Grey Worm not know about her family history, they're also the ones who've benefited the most from Dany's actions. That and they're from one of the most heinous cultures in the series and have a completely different understanding of punishment and loyalty. Neither character has been shown to be questioning of their leader, which makes sense given their background. Missandei straight up bragged about Dany being unique because they chose to follow her, when Dany only summoned Jon to Dragonstone to bend the knee because she wanted to deny the Northerners the right to choose their leader, and confined him to the island when he refused. Tyrion had objections to the slave masters being burned too. He talked her down from burning people alive en masse twice in Meereen. He only went along with it in season six because he'd talked her down from burning everyone alive and accepted it as a necessary evil. His discomfort with her burning the Tarlys wasn't out of character and stemmed from his conviction that there were other alternatives. Good PR is vital to Dany's success given the rumors and legacy that surrounds her; they're exactly what Cersei has capitalized on to turn people against her. Dany risks going the way of Joffrey or Aerys by having someone stab her in the back if she only inspires fear in people and not loyalty or respect. When people like Michelle Clapton, the costume designer, says stuff like this about season eight: It's not just haters inventing things to hate about her, it's the show creators being very deliberate in writing her as a grey and polarizing character to whom multiple interpretations can apply.

Maybe he's the head of the jury for the sake of impartiality ? Clearly he's done something major for all the Starks and other important highborn to be present to begin with. According to the leaks, he "falls to his knees due to the weight of his actions" and doesn't even bother asking for a trial by combat, so he succeeded in some way and his actions have a devastating impact in the show. I think they didn't film his death scene for fear of spoiler pics.

Jon was a monarch when he preceded over Ned and Alys, and the same with Dany and Mossador and Cersei and Tyrion in a sense. Hell, Cersei chose the Mountain as her champion and no one raised an eye. It's never been an issue in the show before. Ned wanted Tywin to stand trial and he was super compromised, but that's how Westeros operates. Jon and Dany discover Tyrion's betrayal in a completely different scene, so they already know he's guilty. Besides, Bran can see everything and Tyrion loses it at the trial so it's not much of a surprise to anyone. Again, narratively it makes no sense to have them absent during one of the biggest moments of the series because of impartiality or whatever. A birth scene or their deaths seem to be the only logical explanations, but like Wouter said, they can hold the trial whenever they want. There's no expiration date. But this is just what I think, and obviously people are entitled to other interpretations. I'm still hoping these leaks aren't true because it doesn't fit with what we've seen so far. Unfortunately, that hasn't been an indicator of anything for years now. ETA: Just read this part: So whatever he does must have massive consequences. But he's also angry and spiteful. I wonder if he inadvertently gets Jaime killed.

I hope "Jon and Arya meet but both have changed" doesn't mean more Stark drama or broodiness.

Yeah, but he also stresses that Davos isn't Hand of the King during this scene, which he should have been made if he's going to preside over the trial. Grey Worm and the Unsullied could also just be around because he betrayed someone they cared about and who possibly got her killed. They might want to witness the trial before possibly leaving Westeros or something. Grey Worm is the only one besides Sansa who has any type of relationship with Tyrion of the people present. You're right it's not conclusive, but the melting snow indicates the war is over, and the only thing that could possibly explain the absence of pretty much anyone Team Dany is the birth of her child, but it makes zero sense to have that occur at the same time as the trial. Imo they're both dust if friki isn't just being deceived and the leaks are true. Frickin Sweetrobin and two new characters are more essential to the scene than Jon and Dany?

Lysa vs. Tyrion, Lannisters vs. Tyrion, Jon and Sansa vs. Ned and Alys, Dany vs. Mossador, Sansa and Arya vs. LF, BwB vs. Sandor etc. Only the nobility (or people who need to be made examples of) seem to be given such trials, and most of these people know each other because they need to associate with each other. For Jon and Dany to stay away now because they know the man standing trial makes no sense given what we've seen throughout the series. And according to Friki, the discovery of Tyrion's betrayal takes place in a scene where Jon and Dany are present, which means there's no doubt as to the status of his innocence. They know he's guilty; it's just pure formality to give him a trial. Him being a main character probably plays into it as well since they can't just Littlefinger him.

That's not how trials in Westeros work. Dany's closer to Jorah than she is to Tyrion and she didn't send Barristan to deal with him when she discovered his betrayal. Jon personally executed Olly for his treason. They're not going to stay away because they're emotionally compromised or they can't provide proof (Tyrion's guilt doesn't seem to in question); they're the King and Queen if they survive, and Davos isn't Hand of the King according to the leaks. Narratively, their absence makes no sense. Tyrion's betrayal is more personal to Dany due to the nature of their relationship than anyone else, but she's not present because it's too hard on her? Instead, characters like Brienne or Sam who've never even met him are present? Having the birth take place at the exact same moment as the trial also makes no sense. It's fiction, they can have her give birth whenever they want; instead Jon and Dany will just be chilling all the way in Dragonstone while everyone else is gathered in the pit during one of the most emotional and important scenes in the show, and the sendoff for one of the main protagonists? I think they're goners if the leaks are true. Very little seems to indicate otherwise.

Tyrion's "they deserved it" means that the people of King's Landing have suffered greatly, but for show!Tyrion to get to the point where he doesn't even care about the deaths of possibly hundreds of thousands of innocent people, something major must have gone down beforehand. He just comes across as bitter in the leaks, which doesn't really mesh well with the theory that he's been betraying Dany for some time now, because he seems smart enough to understand the consequences of a betrayal. It's not much to go on but the vibe I'm getting is that he's still going into this betrayal well-intentioned, or might not even see it as such, which is why he's reacting so passionately. If these spoilers are true, and I'm still on the fence, I can see why everyone's described the season as polarizing because it's definitely going to piss people off. Tyrion, Jon AND Dany dying? Possibly at the hands of each other? Ooh boy. I'm not looking forward hundreds of people quoting Ramsay.

If anything, the show seems to emphasize that love makes people do stupid things, and if the message is that Jon and Dany are so perfectly compatible that they're going to balance out each other's worst traits, then they haven't done a very good job of showing it, or I'm just not feeling it, because their love for each other made Dany abandon all plans and rush beyond the Wall for Jon, leading to the NK gaining a dragon and the means to cross the Wall with his army, and it made Jon reveal his plan to wage war with Dany against Cersei to her, irrespective of the wishes of his own people who're already sick of war, and now have to march South for Dany because Jon's in love after Cersei offer of an independent kingdom... If this is supposed to signify their prowess as good rulers, then Westeros is screwed. Neither character has been established as a good ruler. In fact, no one on this show comes across as a competent ruler, not even Olenna who decided to bring a hundred thousand Dothraki to Westeros out of vengeance with no regard for her people's wellbeing because she wanted revenge after she started the whole mess by pushing her granddaughter to become Queen and poisoning Joffrey to begin with. I have a very hard time believing the cast began preparing the audience for a controversial/unexpected/polarizing/unhappy ending a year in advance if that ending is Jon and Dany ruling over Westeros together happily ever after with Ned Jr and their dragons flying in sync above King's Landing 2.0.

Damn, they must really be bored if they have enough time to hold a trial while an army of undead is approaching.