Aeryn13

How much Dean-bashing was in them? I only read excerpts from the Dreadful Duo about Blade Runners on how Dean has always been a killer as per his DNA - wow, so they consider him born evil? - and was reaching for the brain bleach. Comparatively, how often did everyone mention how righteous Sam is? Or was the gist of it all spared for the "Dean is a loser" featurette on choices and consequences?

I don`t think the character started out this way but by mid-Season 4, he was there. Dean was his favourite? Ahahaha. And he was "hard on Sam"? Ahahahahaha. At some point, he was so deep inside Sam`s ass, he never saw daylight again. "Oh, you are so deep, Sam" vs. "stop trying to think, Dean, you are too dumb anyway" and "Sam is your case, fucker, who cares about you?" vs. "stop worrying about Dean, think of yourself, Sam" and right down to "Sam is a better hunter". " I was happy the character was killed off but of course they dragged him back a couple of times afterwards which eh.

I think Bobby was a big out-out-line asshole in that scene and I`ll never buy the "oh, that is just the only language Dean understands" rationalization. I think that would be how Bobby excuses himself even though when he is called out on his crap, even in the midlest manner possible, he pits ten kinds of fits and acts all wounded ego. And as shown in his own flashback about his abusive childhood, he is a giant flaming hypocrite because he didn`t adhere to the "family makes you miserable, that`s what they are there for" mantra. Now don`t get me wrong, I had no problem whatsoever with childBobby blowing a hole in his abusive father`s skull but if you think family is so sancrosanct, you have to lay down and take it for infinitiy, then that is a big no-no. In the end, it annoyed me because of course Dean caved and went right back to being a little doormat. Whenever he even takes a whiff of a line in the sand, he gets chewed out for it. And then people wonder he has devolved into the pitiful "there ain`t no me if there is no you" version who does crap like with "Ezekiel". Yeah, it probably would have hurt him afterwards had he let Sam go - as we saw, it wouldn`t have changed the Lucifer-rising outcome because that was fixed either way - but I think that would have been good for him in the end. So without Bobby`s asisine speech, I see only upsides and no downsides. That`s why I can `t accept it as something remotely good.

There is no reason he can`t do both. And Jensen strikes me as business savvy to know that. Marvel is still building its universe. Some movies are slates for release dates in years to come and subsequently won`t even start shooting for another 2 or so years. And sooner or latter SPN WILL end. Thankfully, blissfully. Now I do believe there will be a Season 11 but not beyond that. So if there is the possibility to set something up for after that, why not? He is contracted to a WB-produced show right now but is IMO not under a fixed studio contract with them as far as I know. Nor is he in such a recognizeable brand that a x-over wouldn`t be easily possible. I have no idea if there is any truth to that rumour but it was the first thing in a long time I took as positive news - if he can`t get respect from that wretched show, it would be nice to think he can get it at least somewhere else - and I personally like to bask in it a little until totally debunked.

Since Dean got turned into a demon Cain-like and not possessed, I never thought the tattoo would go. Why would it? So sorry, nope, that doesn`t even fill 1% of my powers-quota. And I`m mad if we`re not gonna see anything else but beetle-black eyes when I had to be bored to Sam-powers for years on end.

Now, we didn`t see all that much of Demon!Dean but minus the - possible - beating to death humans, like the bouncer who just did his job or so, his behaviour just seemed jerk-ish. It`s something a human guy on a bender might do. And while I would call that guy a real jerk, I wouldn`t call them evil. Again, minus murdering. I think Carver`s total incompetence in giving interviews has somewhat deluded the subject "this is all Dean, 100 % Dean bla bla" is taken to mean as if it`s actual the human Dean the audience has always known over 9 years with his exact same thought processes and feelings who just randomely put in black contact lenses. Whereas I presume what Carver means to say is that this isn`t an outside demonic entity possessing Dean but Dean being turned into a demon. That is still a far cry from it being the Dean of Season 1-9. Yes, it`s his soul but his twisted soul. And twisted is a key word here. If he still acted nice to women or politically correct or something, where would the demon part come in? To some degree, the demon-ness IS both explanation and excuse to me. So far in the promo I haven`t seen anything that would make a human TV character totally unredeemable, let alone one who is not totally himself. If Dean-as-Dean acted like this, it would be harder to take. But as a demon by demon standards, Dean looks tame. Cain, after being turned into a demon via Mark and Blade, slaughtered people by the hundreds or thousands. For centuries. We only saw it in a short flashback but it is the character`s backstory. If the most "dastardly" things Demon!Dean does are what the promo shows, he is still the nicest and most well-behaved demon in the entire universe. At which point I would say Dean`s actual human character must be a complete saint if even in an evil-turned form he doesn`t wreck up true shit.

I don`t know if you`ve ever watched old Star Trek but there is a pretty famous episode where Captain Kirk gets split in half by a transporter accident, one good half and one evil. The evil half is a genuine menace, even tries to force himself on a lower-ranking officer. That didn`t mean that Kirk - who jhooked up with everything in a skirt in the entire universe - generally just wanted to kill people and rape people and just didn`t get around to it previously. The point of the episode was actually that the bad half was too evil and the good half too timid and you needed both to survive and especially be a leader. It would seem ludicrous to me if Demon1Dean was not significantly different than human!Dean. As a demon he has to be changed. And I wouldn`t even say he wants to hurt innocent people, like, this is his reason to get out of bed. He just gives no shits if they bother him. He has no filter. And why would he respect woman still? He is out for self-gratification, he respects noone but maybe himself. Also, why would he want to be cured? The demon is in charge now and that holds true if Dean were possessed or - as the case here- his own soul has been changed into a demon. And for the demon there are only upsides to remaining this way and no downsides. That isn`t Dean as we know who would look at the world and say "a demon? kill me now and do it quick". That stage has passed. That is the demon and the demon thinks being a demon is great. He would probably go "back to human? kill me now and do it quick".

You mean the killing? Because anything else is just mean-spirited. With the killing, like I said, it depends on how far they`ll go. Despite of what Carver spouts, this is not "all Dean, all the way", though. Being turned into a demon HAS to mean some sort of change, otherwise it wouldn`t happen in the first place. So of course he would be different. And as demons go, he is tame.. Azazel, Lilith, Alistair, Abaddon? No comparism. Cain, your friendly neighbourhood beekeeper expositioned how he killed and maimed for centuries. , In the end nothing I saw in the promo bothers me too much on a "darkness" scale. In a couple of my other shows Dean could act like this and still be considered part of the good guys while doing it. Maybe he`d earn a weary eye-roll at the most.

There were spoilers that he killed some guys and beat others half to death. The show could still easily keep it in the clean by having him kill supernatural creatures - the guy in the alley looks like a demon or an angel, at least not human - and "just" beats humans to a bloody pulp. I count at least two bouncers, the one in the store and that guy outside where I still don`t know why Dean picked him out. I mean, the promo looks like him and Crowley are just randomely walking by, then Dean spots this dude and starts whaling on him. With the girl, I really do think he just farted and is all "oops, teeheehee". Which, while dickish, is seriously on the low end of the dastardly schemes. Not wearing a condom? I would have expected her to notice it. And saying he used a line to get her in the sack? Eh, to be honest, that wouldn`t bother me really. She still would have willingly had sex with him. If someone whines later like "I thought you were a talent agent" or "I thought you were joining the army tomorrow", I just roll my eyes. You can think of the guy as a jerk but that doesn`t make the sex retroactively unconsensual. Own your own decisions. I hope the demon part is only supressed. I get why he can`t be the hyper version for longer than two or three episodes but if there is a mix with human!Dean later, it still could make for interesting stuff. And I can`t say enough how I wanna see some godamn powers. I had to sit through Sam!powers multiple times, now it`s Dean`s turn. My main concern is how they resolve it all for the character. Will he get his big redemption storyline or will they simply go back to a all-about-Sam with ultra pimpage storyline? I`d be fine if Sam just revolved around Dean this year and in the Finale Dean gets the big Saviour moment. Sam can be there and cheer.

I think the promo wasn`t terribly suspenseful. Apparently the only spoilers we got about Demon!Dean was "guy on a bender" was because that is pretty much the only thing happening. Which disappoints me. I wanted to see some powers and badassery and not just beating up Schmoes and hooking up with chicks. It`s actually nice to see him enjoy himself but they could have done more with the change. At least the hook-up looks consensual. As I speculated, he probably starts being dickish the morning after. I wonder what`s going on in that scene where Dean is whaling on that guy and Crowley and everyone else looks on. Crowley, I actually get. He looks pensive in a "hm, maybe I didn`t think this through" way but why does noone else try to interfere? Is this a demon meeting or something? And he actually wanted Dean to make "the perfect hell with him". Like, how? What did he think Dean would do or how he would contribute? Sam torturing a random demon is pretty much run of the mill for this show. There needs to be more to it.

Oh, I`m not disagreeing that it would be nonsensical. Just that I still can easily see it happen regardless. And really, there are even fan request for it, that one the one hand, Dean needs to learn to see Sam as an individual who makes his own choices but on the other hand Dean should take full responsibility for "making Sam go dark by stupidly becoming a demon". What this boils down to is Dean should take responsibility for all of his choices, which, according to Carver, are pretty much all bad and all of Sam`s BAD choices. Sam gets credit for all good things he does. I can see this as a mindset Carver follows, no matter how unfair or hypocritical it is.. And if Carver does indeed believe what Sam said in the Purge as the truth and only, maybe, reluctantly "changed his mind" or rather changed course because not all fans gleefully pulled out their torches and pitchforks for Dean, then how can he not hate or at least strong dislike the character? Sam was made to speak in generalizations. Completely. And everything was negative. It was a value judgement of Dean`s entire character and that judgement was 100 % negative. Moreso it attributed the IMO worst traits a (fictional character at least) can have on him: being weak, selfish and cowardly. Even being called a "monster" is much better because at least it doesn`t outright imply weakness or cowardice. The latter are bottom-feeders. Now you can have "ultimate loser" characters in fiction but not as leads, not even villain, let alone hero and I don`t know where the writers fall with them between the two options: contempt or pity.

While I agree, it makes no sense, I nevertheless think this is exactly Carver`s thought process. In that case, all things not being equal. And he would be far from the first showrunner or this being far from the first show to pull this and be completely tone-deaf to how it can come across. There can always be justifications and explanations on why what Sam attempted to do was right and unselfish vs. what Dean actually did. Or what Sam attempted to do can be ignored. Take the episode with Benny and Martin in Season 8, you might argue both brothers did something crappy in it yet what was the message afterwards? Sam`s side of crappy was completely ignored and he was as white as the driven show while Dean`s was entirely blown out of proportion. Or take Carver`s own 100th episode, one quick "you are so much better than me because I let you rot in here" remark by Dean and voila, he is completely in the wrong for attempting the detox in Season 4 while Sam is as innocent as again the driven snow. And I think that exact writing trope with the brothers in those exact position is rather the norm. And no matter what dark thing Sam does in Season 10, it can a) either be ignored again or b) pinned onto Dean because Dean selfishly became a demon through his own fault and, according to Carver, it`s all and entirely on him. So why shouldn`t Sam`s choices not also be? I fully believe Carver could have written an episode which had Sam let Crowley possess Dean to heal him or whatever "role reversal" they`d be going after next and still believe everything Sam said about Dean held and totally still holds true whereas Sam is simply better and therefore what he does is better.

Well, the "I lied" was an ad-lib by Jared and I don`t think the actual dialogue quite imlied this meaning. Furthermore, watch any interview with Carver about what went down in the Season 9 Finale, it`s the antithesis of Sam saying or even implying he was wrong. It was flat-out not the point he wanted to make. And while I agree having Sam say pretty much flat-out in the Purge speech that Dean for all his life had never been anything else than a piece of selfish, deluded cowardly filfth would open the door to "wow, asshole", I don`t think Carver really envisioned it. Because that IS how he sees the Dean-character. So not only does Sam speak "the truth" there but Carver can`t understand why the audience doesn`t nod along and join him in his contempt for the character. It seems to be so clear to him so why can`t everyone else see it, too? That`s why I am very apprehensive about next Season too. A dark storyline for a character that the head guy saw as a piece of shit even before? That`s gonna work out splendidly.

Like I said, I think the authorial intent will be all "bad, wrong, evil, loser, no good character trait whatosever, all his fault" and gleefully done on top of it. However, I also believe they are incompetent enough - and Jensen is good enough - to cushion the blow as much as possible. So yes, we`ll see.

Nah, it will be Dean`s responsibility in the aftermath. Sam only makes good decisions. Bad decisions made my Sam miraculously are decisions made by Dean.

I`d say fully because Carver was all about the blame-game at Comic Con. And, to be honest, I`ve never once heard him say a complimentary thing about Dean`s character. You listen to Carver, Dean is wrong for breathing - when he isn`t an irrelevant loser, that is. Meanwhile Sam is the epic trial hero who should be worshipped by everyone. Even Death fangirls him. And no matter what, Sam is right. He was wonderfully mature at the beginning of Season 8, his totally vile speech in The Purge is probably considered gospel truth and so on and so forth. Hey, Carver, I just love being told to live in the buttcrack of a specific character. It`s not like I can or even want to make up my mind about how a character acts (and how he is acted) on my own. Nope, just point me in the right direction and I`ll lemming myself along. And in no way was the Purge speech a complete, unforgiveable deal-breaker to me. P.S:: I hope you know what sarcasm is, Mr.Carver. The mockumentary was cute and funny but this featurette sucked ass. I never even bothered with the Season 8 DVD commentaries because "news from Sam`s ass" is not exactly my favourite channel.

I can`t remember reading about this. It would have to be Human!Dean saying that anyways because Demon!Dean sure as hell will not tell anyone to stop him or keep him in check from the looks of it. And if human Dean says it, that would indicate the demon has been somewhat put to rest so the best Dean could ask would be "if I turn again, kill me right away". Which, okay, should be harder than it sounds if original recipe Cain has looked for a way for eons. What Jensen said however was that Cas would say to Sam "hey, if this goes too far, you know what has to happen" aka if Demon!Dean can`t be stopped, he needs to be killed.

That would only mean something to me if he got the big world-saving sole hero moment from it. If he just stops beating on one or the other? Pfft. That means nothing to me. I assume Dean will be semi-undemoned by episode 4. From what we got in spoilers, the kind of demon he will be in episodes 1-3 is noone who would stay around for casual hunts. Since the writers are incapable of writing a Season-long mytharc without fillers, there have to be casual hunts. Ergo, Demon!Dean needs to be changed back to a state where he can function in such episodes. And not as an antagonist. Also, the Mark of Cain seems to remain so they can milk that. I mean, logically, he would still be "immortal" but if he "dies" again, it stands to reason he would get turned right back into a demon? That would make him both more and less suited to take risks. Hopefully, they just don`t do the stupid and lame blood curing from the third trial. Not only do I hate everything connected to the trial storyline and never, ever, ever, ever want to see it back but the image of super-saintly Sam curing Dean with his super-saintly blood? Do not want. The versus writing on the show is bad enough as it is. It`s fine if it is discussed as a possibility but it shouldn`t work. I wished the "your whole life you were always a selfish, cowardly loser" speech would get adressed but I doubt it. I mean, Demon!Dean could snark that even as a loose canon killer, he was apparently a step up from what Sam deemed him to be as a human. Because actually, he would be. Pretty much nothing could be lower than what Sam described in his generalizations.

I`m glad both changed it because IMO the original dialogue sucks ass. "We played it through"? What is that even supposed to mean in the context of the episode? They didn`t play jack through. Going by Carver`s interviews, it is probably supposed to refer to Sam being "willing to let Dean die in the name of the mission". And, um, did he SEE the episode he wrote? Or at least read it? Heck, did he write it in the first place? Because that wasn`t quite what happened here. As abysmal as Suck Song was but at least it would fit the bill of one brother being willing to let the other brother die for a mission. And talking about the aftermath, Dean is awknowledging that death is likely preferable to whatever the MOC does to him longterm yet Sam makes it clear that he is not willing to let him die then and there. Dean doesn`t argue much because he knows it`s a moot point since he is gonna bleed out in 3...2...1. And, if "we won" was said or not, I can`t believe Dean would have even WANTED to say it because, again, they won jack. Most-ludicrous line ever. Nothing about this makes sense. Sam saying "I didn`t know you were gonna die" would be taking the spot as second most-ludicrous line. And most naive certainly. However, what kills it dead is "bud". Since when in the history of the show has Dean used the nickname "bud" for Sam or anybody? John might have said this to his kids or maybe I just think of that as a fanfic trope but hells to the no.

I don`t consider it the weakest. Of course, for me the second half of Season 8 is the vilest piece of crap (baring the Season 5 Finale) that this show ever had the misfortune of producing. I`m still regurgitating bits of pushed-down-Sam from my throat and can`t even think of Dean back then without shuddering at the degradation. It brings the whole Season down to an "utter crap" rating for me, despite a decent start in points.. So Season 9, while staring off weak and predictable, was quite a lot better for me. Oodles better. In fact, one episode stands as a long-time favourite now and introduces one of the coolest guest characters that show has had in years. And while it genuinely carries the same writing flaws it always has, there is also some good stuff in the mix. Metatron is a seriously annoying writerly insert, though. I was as disappointed in him as a bad guy as I was in the Leviathans during Season 7..

I`ve read that Becky is gonna be the one producing the play on the Winchester`s life in that "funny" meta episode that is supposed to be a "love letter to fans". Considering what kind of fan Becky is, which fans will that letter be adressed to? And I can already see what the play is gonna be like then. Maybe she self-inserted again to kneel adoringly before Sam on stage? I assume Dean is a tree or something for all she cares about the character..

Well, if no other character seems really interested in the story and yet the story is supposed to be happening, that seemed the only solution. But I did find it awkward. If Sam had the MOC, Dean would have been shown to angst over it 24/7 for 12 episodes in a row. And Sam would have shown physical manifestations an episode after receiving it. In the beginning, when Dean initially took on the Mark, I even expected a clear-cut role reversal. That it would be like the trials in a way and we would see (sublte) supernatural changes for Dean as early as episode 12 or 13. And that Sam (and later Cas) would be laser-focused on it. Yet it was the most non-reversal reversal I`ve ever seen. Usually they lift whole scenes/episodes/themes from previous Seasons and just switch the character`s places in them. I don`t know what it was, maybe they couldn`t get the "caretaker"-trope out of their heads for Dean? That, even when the character finds himself in a role previously held by Sam or other characters,and those others in the role previously held by Dean that it wouldn`t change the writing for him and not change the writing for others?

I`m not either. For Dean, I`ve long since been annoyed that they never allowed him to stray too far (or too long) from his own "90 % crap" self-image. So Sam amending that to "100 % crap" is something I like even less. And I don`t want to see stuff from Dean re: Sam either. Their relationship is so clusterfucked at this point with no reason they like each other (or any portrayal of liking each other), it`s best when they don`t share scenes or at least only do so on outside matters. And believe it or not, I don`t need to see Dean-angst either. For the longest time, they just gave the character emo-porn because they gave him nothing else and he had to do something onscreen. I`d be fine if he was just the focus and center of the storyline. They could have given the POV to Sam or Cas or whomever last year and I wouldn`t have minded. Unfortunately, the way it was written, that didn`t work When Dean had the stupid POV and Sam had the story, Dean was but a magnifying glass always to keep the viewer super-focused on Sam`s story. He angsted about Sam in private, he angsted about Sam to other characters, sometimes he even angsted about Sam to Sam. Last year Dean had the MOC-story and Sam and Cas had one throwaway conversation about it that lasted 30 seconds. They didn`t provide the super-focused magnifying glass to Dean`s story.

That actually made sense to me because I would have found it flat-out insane for him to seek out Cassie. As she was established she dumped him because she thought he was crazy-cakes when he first told her the truth. Apparently not SO much crazy.cakes that years later when she had strange goings-on in her own life, she didn`t give it a shot to call him for "expertise". On that case they hooked up again and in the end she was like "eh, no, that really leads nowhere". Now I found her to be annoyingly hot and cold over the course of the episode but in the end she was crystal clear that this was the finish line. She would not wait for him (which, to be clear, she was under no obiigation to), she would not pine for him, she would not think of him and she would basically not regret it. She appeared to have already completely moved on. At the end of episode 13? in Season 1. I could even believe if Dean had shown up at her doorstep years later, she might not have known who he even WAS. Like Sarah who apparently had gotten married and had a baby as we met her again in Season 8, I could see something similar for Cassie. Neither woman waited arounf for a Winchester. And I believe Dean realized this about Cassie in the end. The chapter was closed so seeking her out under any conditions would have made no sense. Seeking out Lisa back in Season 3 who he`d only known as a fun hook-up and who presumably he had left things with amicably and with no finality either way (other than both parties probably thinking they`d never meet again) made more sense to me.

That`s a difference in opinion. You felt he wasn`t, I felt like I drowned in it. As for doing it with Dean, sure, it`s easier to take if it`s your fave but it happening too much guarantees they are not my fave for much longer. I didn`t feel about Sam for the first two to four years the way I do now either. So I would have prefered not to be happening at all or happening equally. I agree but the construct was obviously ChosenOneMerlin. As soon as the writers likened them to Jeeves and Wooster, it was clear why the writing failed across the board. No show should take that as its template, though. I thought the church speech WAS about how Sam felt, namely angry and sad on how he perceived Dean felt. The second was basically how he felt about Dean. That`s always been a dichotomy for Sam, he gets "truth-spelled" or finally angry enough to tell Dean how he really sees him which seems to be a weak selfish coward with delusions of goodness yet keels over at the mere thought that someone so low could think badly of him. What he wants is feeling an amount of validation he can`t give either. Which is why I can`t really sympathize with the problem. I could with being angry about the possession but that wasn`t the angle the writers tackled.