Carrie Ann

From what I've seen from critics I follow on Twitter, a lot of networks seem to be rather dramatically cutting their participation/activity in the Winter TCAs this year. Not sure why, but what The CW is doing seems pretty much in line with the other networks.

My hope is that they might feel judgy at first, and then quickly transition to concerned that they missed the signs, and that she's been more effed up than they realized.

Ha, I think we're both confused. I just looked back:

That was Season 4, which was extremely infuriating, yes. I think Season 5 was probably the worst season on the whole though, while S6 was kind of a creative rebirth, and enjoyable for a good portion. I might have watched the S7 premiere, but then I quit.

I liked S3 too, but I have more problems with it than S2, for sure. But when I recommend the show to people now, I usually tell them to watch S1-3 and quit there if they're satisfied, because while there are a few bright spots in later seasons, it's mostly not worth it, IMO. (But I was watching live by that point--it might have been more fun to watch in marathon format.)

Awww, memories of my TVD marathon of like 5 years ago! Congrats, you're already through the worst of (early) TVD! No spoilers, but...they didn't do a whole lot of real rehab on Damon as much as just slowly make him less overtly horrible, give him a little bit of a woobie backstory, and then just hope everyone would forget the early stuff. Which worked for a lot of people, even mostly for me. He does become more interesting and enjoyable (IMO) as they make him more complex and less cartoony, but...there's just no erasing some of that stuff that happens early on. I hope you enjoy--the part of S1 you're into now + S2 is some of my favorite fun TV of all time.

I agree that Felicity is shown to be there for Oliver way more often than he for her, which is in part a function of him being the main character and in part the fact that the show almost never cares to give Felicity (or any non-Oliver character) a POV. And this season, when they do, the core characters almost always turn to a noob instead of to each other (except for Thea/Quentin). But in that vein, while they did seem like closer friends to me a few times prior to 505 because they shared some actual conversations, I don't think any of those involved Oliver explicitly supporting Felicity. Which is not great! But post-505, I think they've both been treating each other like work pals and nothing more. So that doesn't bother me MORE from Oliver's side than from Felicity's. As far as the second point, I guess I just disagree that he's kept real secrets from her or excluded her from things that really impact her. I don't think breaking Dig out of prison had anything to do with her. It was Lyla's decision, which Oliver supported. I can't think of anything beyond that? But anyway, he's not explicitly trying to make changes in order to get her back, but I think, as of 416, her dealbreakers were that he would always retreat to doing things on his own, and not let anyone in, and the whole William debacle was evidence of that. The whole beginning of the season was about him wanting to stay that course as GA, but ultimately accepting her plan to bring on new team members, and then to train them, and to really trust them versus just ordering them around and keeping them at a distance. I think he's growing, I just...don't care about it as it relates to the noobs. And, yeah, if they are going to get back together, then at some point, that growth does need to be explicitly related to her concerns and needs. But...the show isn't doing that yet, because...the writers are bad at their jobs and don't know how to stall a relationship without just dropping it for awhile, apparently. I don't think I understand. Are you saying that you don't think Oliver believed there was any distance between him and Felicity? I do agree with this very much. I am finding it very hard to relate to any of the characters this season because they barely relate to each other, and when they do, it's often not in ways I recognize.

Moving non-spoilery O/F comment from the spoiler thread: I totally get if Oliver in S4 killed O/F as a ship for anyone, because 408/410/415 were just horrible, IMO. If you made it through that, through the end of last season still shipping them, but now hate Oliver (and, therefore, the ship), that's confusing to me. To me, he's just been following Felicity's lead since the end of 416. We have no idea what their friendship looked like over the summer. We do know that Oliver was not entirely sure about what the future held for them romantically as of 501. And they seemed like close friends at the beginning of the season, but then Felicity also told Curtis that she and Oliver don't talk to each other about certain things anymore. So it seems like they'd re-set some boundaries (likely unspoken). And at some unknown point in the summer, she'd begun to date Billy, felt serious enough--or at least comfortable enough--with him that she gave him a key to her apartment, but still did not tell Oliver for months. Who knows when or if she would have, but she showed no inclination until forced by a third party. At which point, she had a very understandable and kind-hearted reasoning to offer--that she chickened out, that she wasn't sure about it and didn't really want to tell him until she was--but that doesn't change that she was keeping something pretty big a secret from him. That's not a moral judgment, just pointing out that she did something that effectively kept Oliver at arm's length, in terms of intimacy, even as a friend--both by dating someone else and by keeping it secret. In my opinion, it showed her wanting to be in control of how they related to each other and the distance between them, which is again understandable. Then after Oliver took it in, he suggested she figure out whether it was real with Billy, and said that (following her lead) he would see what was next, too. (She didn't seem to succeed in figuring out whether it was real, and by the time Billy died, she was no more comfortable considering him her boyfriend than she had been weeks earlier. That Oliver did go ahead with pursuing something (rather lazily) with Susan isn't a sin against Felicity, I don't think?) From that point in 505, they were both basically emotionally blank around each other. Felicity made jokes about his "girlfriend," and beyond that, they communicated only about "business" matters until Oliver killed Billy and they had that sad scene. And then Oliver didn't go to her apartment afterward to offer comfort, understandably, IMO. (In my view, that would have looked like/been perceived as him actually wanting to receive comfort/be absolved, but who can say.) Instead he went to the apartment of the woman he is now seeing--a person who was outside of his circle enough that he doesn't yet feel like he's ruined her life, which is how he felt about everyone else around him at that moment, which is probably why he didn't want to be around any of them. So, I guess my question for people who find themselves at the end of their rope w/r/t Oliver/Olicity right now, is: is that the straw that broke the camel's back? That he talked to Susan? Because to me, I didn't want to see it--and I continue to think that him trusting Susan on any level is very dumb--but I understand what the writers were going for (which is not the same thing as saying I agree with their terrible, stupid approach to this season). And in general, I really haven't found anything Oliver has done TO Felicity to be upsetting this season. Just disappointing because I want to see more, but I'm disappointed by her w/r/t him too, by which I really mean that I'm frustrated by the writers refusing to tell an O/F story at all.

I'm still unconvinced either way, but this assumes that their plans for Tina (in general) are limited to this season, and I don't think they are? Or we at least have no reason to believe that right now.

TBH, I didn't really like Curtis/Felicity's dynamic in S4--or at least not when they were acting like boss/employee, because I thought they were both just kind of...unnecessarily snotty to each other. But I did/do like them as friends, and people who think similarly. I just think it would serve the show better to distinguish between their specific skills, and show them being supportive of each other in those areas rather than being kind of competitive/one-upping like they do sometimes. I also agree that if they intend Tina to be a part of the team for longer than this half-season, some chemistry testing with the core cast would have been a good idea, regardless of their intentions for her as an LI. OTOH, I'm not sure what they did with RG, and it does feel like they have longer-term plans for him. But I don't think a lack of chemistry with the cast is my problem with WD. I think RG is good at being "engaged" in his scenes--he's not just waiting to say his lines like some other actors who have appeared on this show, ahem. I just don't like his character much, and I really don't like the amount of focus he's getting for someone who hasn't proved worthy of it.

I hear you both. Ending with Oliver happy in his love life would have seemed like a given to me prior to this season, but I'm just not sure what they're doing anymore, so I can't bring myself to feel as sure about it as I did. I do think it's likely, or at least AS likely as the alternative; just not convinced one way or the other yet. I keep waiting for the "pivot," I guess--in-show or at least outside of it--which will tell me that something is coming and give me a feeling as to approximately when, and so far...nada. That in itself is not "evidence" that nothing is coming, as there are definitely reasons (through the lens of their very bad PR strategy) to point to for why they would want to continue not talking about O/F right now--they were trying to sell Felicity/Mayo so his death would have *some* resonance (didn't work); now they're trying to sell Oliver/Susan so this subplot about her betrayal and whatever else will have resonance; they value "surprises" and selling the current storylines over the long-term strategy of keeping people invested in your core relationships. I will say though that throughout S3, the EPs did continue to talk about O/F as they related to each other even as they talked up her relationship with Ray or whatever. At that point, they were telling an Olicity story, and *right now* they are not, except in the background if you squint. I expect they will get back to that story again--whether that starts around 516 or 520 or 523--and I expect to see a change in tune prior to that point. If I thought it was happening as soon as 512-514, I think they would start hinting at it again now. If it's starting around 516, then I think they'll start talking about it during the break after Feb sweeps (assuming there is one). I'm just adjusting back my timeframe expectations every time an opportunity presents itself to address O/F and cast/crew don't take it.

But what about Oliver's romance with The City??? It's the most important relationship on the show, in case you forgot. ;) I'm actually only partially kidding. For this season, as the closing of a chapter or whatever they've been saying, I could see them not addressing Oliver's romantic life much as the season comes to an end. Had their original plan worked out (L/O), I do think it would have been a focus, because success/failure in his love life has always been tied to his personal growth. And I think the season will end on a positive, hopeful note, where Oliver has self-actualized (or come close, until next season when he forgets everything he's learned or whatever), so it would make sense to show how that growth impacts his personal life. But because they've had to rethink so many aspects of their original plans, and because they have yet to change their PR tune at all--not even hints yet about anything to do with O/F this season--I'm not sure they will reunite in S5. I do lean toward the O/F story being picked up again around 520-523, because I think they will at least want it in the air over summer hiatus. I could see it going either way--either they reunite, or they appear to be on a path toward it but not actually together--but that S6 comment did not help make me feel more optimistic about it coming sooner than later.

Well, that sure doesn't sound like DR! I do hope Dig's out by end of 510 or 11, and maybe he stays back from the roadtrip to actually spend time with his family or something. But honestly I can't bring myself to follow or care about his pointless storyline, which only existed to get him out of the lair for awhile so that the noobs were necessary.

I think the confusion here is that you said that Barry was the only one who could be the married superhero, because of canon. So if we agree that the other shows don't follow canon, then any of the other heroes could also be married, right?

There is no real "canon" for LoT; and Arrow left any GA comic canon in the dust a long, long time ago. There is no "canon" these shows are beholden to that would require "change," and if there were, killing Laurel was surely the most definite sign that Arrow is off any sort of beaten path, no?

I don't think she's actually forming a new team. My guess is that she'll end up working with hackers she knows from her past, and with Vigilante. But yeah, if we were splitting up the team, I like Felicity, Dig, Rory, and Tina TBD.

That Diggle answer is filling me with so much rage.

IF Felicity's "dark" arc with new cohorts is not just being exaggerated as usual, then...for angsty reasons, I kind of don't want anyone to notice her slipping away until she's, like, pretty far gone. And then I want them to freak out when they figure it out, because they fucked up by assuming she was fine, and just seeing her as Ol' Faithful.

I have a 4-year-old, so I may not be remembering the 18-month-old timeframe perfectly, but I would say that no, I don't think this is realistic. Jealousy w/r/t other kids at that age is very realistic, but not jealousy over things like this. At most, if they saw some other kid-art hanging up, they would want to A) make some art themselves because that looks fun, and B) have you hang it up so they could look at it often. I don't really believe an 18-month-old can fully conceive of a new baby coming, let alone try to understand a kid who already existed who has yet to be born. That said, at some point, that kind of understanding does set in with toddlers, and as a parent, you have no clue when that happens, so it's not harmless to show so much blatant favoritism. Also, since the authors clearly DO think that this is realistic for an 18-month-old, and they've not written Oliver to be, like, shocked and horrified when he realizes how Jules is feeling--they are not absolved from writing O/F this way. They just keep showing O/F to be not just terrible parents, but unrepentantly so. Making parenting mistakes is one thing. Getting annoyed at your kid for having feelings as a direct result of those mistakes--and continuing to do nothing to change your behavior--is unacceptable. Loving the kid doesn't make it better, especially not when they (apparently) do this to her continuously for her entire life and just expect her to get with the program instead of fixing their shit to make sure their child feels loved.

I don't think we've seen a source for this, so may not be worth getting too annoyed about it.

This pretty much sounds like I imagined it would go down, minus the Dig parts because his pointless plot is too boring to speculate about. I don't really get what's happening at the very end, but everything else fits for me. Another ep to skip!

Is there a link to MG saying this?

I thought they emphasized Felicity keeping Billy at arms-length because it revealed something about Felicity, not because it would (ultimately) absolve Oliver. She didn't love him, the relationship wasn't "real," and probably never would have been. If the show wanted us to believe that Felicity loved him (so that we would feel his loss more deeply or...whatever), they would have certainly revealed that in this episode rather than hammering home once again that she wasn't even comfortable calling him her boyfriend. Either Felicity wouldn't let him get that close, or he just wasn't the right person for her, but either way, it was a dead-end (ha) relationship that she was using as a distraction. So anyway, I don't know that Oliver technically being the one who killed Billy would be much of a roadblock, but I could be wrong. To me, the fact that Felicity immediately blamed Prometheus for Billy's death tells me that she will not connect that to Oliver, even subconsciously. I mean, I think the trauma of his murder (plus all her/their other trauma) would further delay them reuniting, but not because Oliver was responsible for it.

Rory told Curtis he wasn't gay in an episode early in the season. He didn't seem conflicted about it.

It just started today.