Churchhoney

Wasn't it said that Oprah offered to give the kids college tuition and JB turned her down? I wonder whether her show wouldn't have offered that as their real reason for canceling the appearance? If I were an exec at another network, I think I might well have believed that as a reason. After all, it would not only insult the queen of television but make a contentious mess out of what the Oprah people may have planned as a heartwarming hour and it would have messed up one of Oprah's big themes -- her pro-education message -- as one of America's favorite families told her to take a hike with it, basically. I sort of think that Discovery must have known the Duggar rumors, too. But I can also see a scenario in which the insult-to-Oprah's-philanthropy excuse got bought, since TLC really didn't want to find out anything bad about what they were eyeing (accurately) as their next big thing. Oprah's people could have done a wink-wink-nudge-nudge to TLC as they put forth the turned-down-the-tuition excuse. But they also may not have wanted to directly pass on the defaming rumor about these people since it was, after all, just a rumor that they'd received through an anonymous email.

Yeah, I know exactly what you're saying.... . I've had a slightly different response. My extreme differences from them have actually made me try to be somewhat more tolerant of them than I otherwise would be. I figure that I'm so biased against them -- and have had such a visceral loathing for Jim Bob, especially -- that I must be misjudging them at least a little bit on the negative side. As you say, though, they do just keep surpassing our negative expectations!

But think what a bad example they would be for America. No SAHDs???! And they all -- even the mom! -- took biology classes! Are you trying to stop Jesus from coming back?

Sure, but they weren't God's most favoritest person!

"Fun" "Life" "Experience." Strikes me that all these are things that the Duggar parents build their walls to keep out. I suppose that's the fear thing again. Horrible that JB and M have passed this attitude on to their kids. I think you may be exactly right about her doing this. .... And despite the whole perkiness thing, I think she'd mean all of this were she to write about it. .... To date, as far as I can tell, she's never written word one about Josiah or the Duggars on her blog (which is mostly an audience-garnering tool for her book, I guess, and now maybe for a new business idea she has -- hand-lettered Bible verses for posters? cards or something?). In fact, it kind of looks as if she stopped blogging the minute she began contemplating getting into this relationship and resumed it again only very recently, after the breakup. Don't know what this means, but I found it kind of intriguing. Makes me curious about whether she will write about it going forward, because the kind of stuff you mention would be very much in line with the substance of her blog pre-Josiah -- basically a discussion of how real-life incidents tie in to biblical study, which I guess is what her book is about.

I'd say that's a fair assessment. I'm so different from these people -- and so unhealthily mesmerized and horrified by them -- that I'm pretty sure I bend over backwards to give them the benefit of the doubt. (Except for Jim Bob. I think I'm finally through giving him the benefit of any doubts. I tried to for a long time, just because I felt there needed to be a counterbalance to the utter loathing I've felt for him since I first knew he existed and that's increased every time I've seen him, heard him or read about him. But I think I'm done with that now.) With Derick, the facts that he did go to college and still talks of that experience positively, seems to be serious about his mission ideas (even though I don't agree at all with what they appear to be), may have been somewhat competent in Nepal (although who knows?), seems to be nice to his kid, and is still very young, especially since he comes from a conservative and somewhat sheltered background, add up to some doubt for me. Not enough to label him a strong and strongly principled sort, but enough to consider him salvageable with perhaps a bit of potential. Nevertheless, as you point out, all that stuff is tissue thin compared to the questionable stuff we know he's done. Too bad. But you're probably right. Yep. Because words speak louder than actions. (maybe that's the Duggar family motto?)

Yeah, I feel really conflicted about the cat incident, too. In other ways, he seems to me to have quite a bit of decency in him (way misguided in a lot of ways, but decent). But the cat thing truly disgusted me. I wonder whether he's just far too much of a follower (well, I think that's clear, given that he probably sought to follow Jim Bob as well) and that day got caught up in following the crowd to do something that he wouldn't have initiated on his own. But who knows? Just like the fact that he may have been attracted to Jill because of the likelihood that she'd be submissive, it's troubling. In other ways, though, he strikes me as having some potential. But he does remain a puzzle.

I know it seems counterintuitive to say that somebody stupid is a master manipulator. But -- sorry that I harp on my own background, but unfortunately it's what draws me toward this Duggar monstrosity -- I was raised by an absolute master manipulator who was in every other way one of the stupidest-seeming, most ignorant people I've ever met. I'm not entirely sure how to account for that except to say that I think some people must simply use every brain cell they've got on people-manipulation to get their needs and wants met and simply don't have the brainpower or interest left over to use their brains for anything else. And, sure, there are smart people whose manipulations are cleverer and may not include a combo of deprivation and bribery, but these seemingly dumb people can get their way, too. I think what they all probably have in common is extreme neediness combined with a massive will to power, and through a lifetime they hone whatever their particular methods are for gaining those things. Well, that's what I see in Jim Bob, anyway, although I'm sure it's too much influenced by my experience of my own family. When it comes to older kids leaving -- well, yeah, but some of that comes from spouses (as in this case). And it's way harder to control somebody you haven't been warping from birth! Beyond that, though, this large number of children seems to be hanging in there with him to really an extraordinary degree. To me, Jim Bob looks to be -- so far, at least -- incredibly successful in getting those kids to not only hang around the house, follow all of his ideas -- such as not even wanting a job or an education or a regular dating life, and actually even sort of thanking him for being a great dad, and echoing his stupid mantras. Some of the magic comes from money - -but then again, he had the slyness to realize that money would accomplish his ends. Anyway, that's my take on why you can be dumb but also a master manipulator. MMV, of course! And I agree that it's really really alarming that Derick would marry somebody he knew so little of. I guess it's the Christian version of those people who meet somebody in a bar and spend the next night driving to Vegas to the Little Wedding Chapel? Don't know what causes people to do that, but it sounds darned risky to me!

Sounds comfortable. Does it cut your neck when you sleep on it?

Thanks. Wish they'd go more in this direction. But I guess I'm old and boring. : )

Absolutely. You only exchange your hopes, dreams and intentions for the rest of your life, reveal your deepest thoughts about what you want in a partner and what you want your life to mean, and make an effort to share your most important goals and highest aspirations. That's so trivial compared to going to the movies, eating pizza, holding hands and hugging -- those are the things that really rip your heart out in case of a breakup. What the heck are they thinking?

I wonder how Who Do You Think You Are? is doing over there.

TLC's batting a thousand.

I wonder whether any other tv show has ever precipitated such widespread, angry glee by its ending?

I'm a hundred percent certain that Jim Bob is an extremely determined, master manipulator. And I think he probably decided pretty early on that he'd turn his manipulative powers on Derick, whom he probably saw as serving some of his purposes. .... Plus, I think we're all pretty sure that Derick was emotionally/spiritually drifting a bit for some reason when he first got in touch with JB. And being in a confused or possibly somewhat depressed? state can really dim your perceptions, especially when it comes to people's behavior. I also expect that Derick had never been well acquainted with any serious manipulators before, so he didn't really have an eye out for this. .... And he just missed it. He didn't have the benefit of watching the whole play from outside but was inside, having the full force of Jim Bob's purposes turned right on him, and he went into it with an apparent hunger to get some of his needs met. Then, after he got together with Jill, he couldn't turn to her to confirm any suspicions or strengthen him, since she's full of Kool-aid up past the eyebrows. He looks to me like just a regular, somewhat naive young guy who got caught up in the web of a much older nut that he just wasn't prepared by nature or experience to deal with. It's really pretty hard to take on your new in-laws in a knock-down, drag-out fight so early on, I'm betting. Especially when Jim Bob does a damned good job of keeping his nefarious nature shrouded and would probably have plausible deniability in the eyes of everybody else around. Derick's mom was sick and probably didn't have the sharpest eye at the time, either. I'm really glad he grabbed his family and left the country. It's probably not the ideal solution. But given the position he found himself in, I think it may have been the best he could manage at the time. I wonder what it portends for the rest of Derick's lifetime relationship with the Duggars, I must say.

They try to keep us from remembering this!

The Hollywood Reporter puts total losses to date at $24 million -- The more the merrier, I say. http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/19-kids-cancellation-discovery-charge-813292?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=THR%20Breaking%20News_now_2015-08-05%2007%3A27%3A07_gszalai&utm_term=hollywoodreporter_breakingnews

Exactly. And a master manipulator who can get hold of multiple newborns -- one after another as he hones his manipulative skills -- and keep them completely within his sphere of influence for every day of their lives thereafter has an ability to warp and mold a person like no other. And he never lets them out of his sight. What I've said all along is that that's the entire point of the isolation they impose on these kids. Religion and Gothard have never been anything but a publicly plausible cover for the sickening domestic tyranny that this gross, fearful, mean, deeply stupid little man must impose or feel his ego crumbling. That's why there's always uncertainty about whether he "really" follows any theology, or whatever. "Belief" is completely meaningless to the creepy bastard, only a tool and a cover story. It's all about his power. And the idea that, Oh, but they have outside friends in the ATI community so they're not so very isolated! is bullshit, too. Those so-called "friendships" are purely meaningless, stage dressing to make the whole thing look normal, another ruse to help him get away with it, just like his Hyuk hyuk hyuk good old boy "charm" mask, his trips to amusement parks with the little ones and his tears at the girls' weddings. He's a skilled enough manipulator to play both good cop and bad cop to his own purposes. And, oh yeah, I'm sure he believes that he's the greatest, most loving guy. But noone in that household has ever been permitted to be a true individual, separate from Jim Bob, for five minutes. And Michelle can never be forgiven for the few times that she may have been herself before she met him. They're like that Chinese emperor's terra cotta army. They may look realistic. But they're not truly alive. AndiIn his eyes, they have no purpose except to magnify the glory of Jim Bob, on into future generations.

Particularly when he'd crammed the kids into that inadequate house but then blithely threw away $250,000 on his clearly ridiculous Senate campaign -- during which, instead of answering voter questions, he repeatedly trotted the kids out on stage and tried to use them as his entree into high office, as we learned from the article Julia turned up the other day. They've been used and abused for going on two decades now, at least, and he's such a manipulator that he's actually got most of them thanking him for it. It's truly disgusting.

Hey, they're here to change the world, not conform to it. This goes for grammar (and probably math) as well. (Also geography: new definition of overseas. And history: King James wrote the KJV. By his ownself. Because being a monarch apparently wasn't enough occupation for him. And we know all about their revolutionary approach to biology.)

Bears repeating.

As someone here said yesterday, regarding another matter: One of those people has a penis.

Unfortunately, I don't think many people will watch a "reality" show that's not about someone who seems quite outlandish. if the mass of watchers actually liked illuminating documentary-type shows, the tv landscape would look an awful lot different than it does. The mass audience really only wants to see somebody have to buy enough groceries to feed an army of kids that walk only on kitchen counters or somebody else have to get married without ever exchanging a hug. If the foster kids or the elderly parents were conjoined quintuplets or something, I can see it, though.

http://dailycaller.com/2015/08/05/it-cost-24-million-to-cancel-19-kids-and-counting/ It Cost $24 Million To Cancel ’19 Kids And Counting’ Kaitlan Collins Entertainment Editor 11:02 AM 08/05/2015 TLC canceled “19 Kids and Counting” after Josh Duggar admitted to molesting several girls as a teenager, including his own sisters, and it cost their parent media group $24 million to end the series. After the amount showed up on its second-quarter earnings report, Discovery Communications CFO Andy Warren confirmed the company took a $24 million hit for “restructuring” after it canceled the Duggar family’s show. “Higher other losses (which includes currency impact) and $24 million in restructuring from the cancellation of ’19 Kids and Counting’ (not included in segment earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization) offset the higher profitability leading to the earnings per share miss,” Warren said.

This is a scary thought. And so unfair. Then at the same time I think, well,, would I want to have or want anyone I care about to have JB and M as in-laws? And the answer to that is no. So unfortunately I can understand what people's motivations may be. I guess it might be okay if you could get your chosen Duggar kid to move several states away. But he/she would still have parents -- and maybe siblings -- who are big fat grifters and who've taken terrible advantage of their children for their whole lives.