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Yeah, it's the one where Sam gave Dean the amulet. And Sam just shrugged off Dean's comment and kept asking questions, which is why I assumed Sam wasn't bothered by Dean's snark. He knew and trusted that Dean really did love him, so snarky comments and/or teasing weren't as threatening/hurtful. JMO, of course.

Well, to be honest, in A Very SPN Christmas, Dean was pretty snarky to Sam in answering his questions, as in "Why do we move all the time?" "Because everywhere we go people get tired of your face." Sam didn't seem too upset by that, though.

I started a long answer to this a few hours ago and got interrupted, so hopefully I can shorten it a bit now... About teasing going too far (and not stopping even if it does bother you...) that definitely goes on, especially with siblings. But a lot also depends, I think, on the relationship to start with. I am a younger sister, and my sister and I are pretty much polar opposites in everything. She also teased/mocked me, but (most of the time) it wasn’t necessarily to be mean—sometimes she thought it was funny and didn’t expect me to take it badly (because she expected me to react just like her); sometimes she was annoyed at me and said mean things that she promptly forgot but I took to heart, and sometimes, yes, she was really mad and said things that, I think, appalled even her, but couldn’t bring herself to take back (I compare it to Sam in The Purge). It doesn't mean that I wasn't hurt at the time, but as I got older I could understand it a little better. Yes, there are some people who deliberately choose to torment their siblings—probably, as you said, to make themselves feel more important. But IMO, Dean had way too much invested in “protecting Sammy” to want to hurt him deliberately, as least when they were young. I’m pretty sure if Sam showed that something hurt him Dean would immediately stop. (Remember way back in season 1 when Dean first called Sam a freak and Sam called him on it, Dean backed off and said “we’re both freaks” because he could see that it bothered Sam.) I know it’s JMO, but Sam seemed more annoyed (or sometimes amused) at Dean’s teasing about women/Samantha than upset and hiding it. It seemed to me that it was something he was used to (like being called “Sammy” no matter how many times he corrected it) and it was kind of comforting, especially (as someone said above) during the time right after Jessica’s death. But I can understand why, with your family history, you might interpret it differently. I’m not so sure of Sam’s motives for teasing/mocking Dean, and not because he’s less sensitive or more arrogant or any other negative reason, though his surprise that Dean was so upset at the Flagstaff incident does make me think that he was a little self-involved and not paying much attention to Dean’s feelings at the time. As a younger sister, I spent a lot of time trying to get out of my sister’s shadow, and one of the ways I did that was to *not* compete with her in the things she excelled in, but find my own. So I can see Sam doing the same thing—he felt he’d never be as good as Dean in the things their dad wanted—fighting, tactics, weapons—so he took pride in being the researcher/”intelligent” one. And just like I got upset when my sister proved to be good at one of my specialties, I can see Sam (consciously or not) feeling threatened when Dean says/does something that shows he is also intelligent/good at research and wanting to downplay it or “mock” him. Again, he probably wasn’t even aware that he was hurting Dean in the process—he was just protecting his own sense of importance. That's perfectly human, I think, and especially with younger siblings. I think they've both outgrown being hurt at being teased (or at least, gotten a better perspective to recognize affection in whatever form); but there are still bitter feelings underneath that come out sometimes in supposedly light comments, from both of them. That's also being human.

IA that both brothers have been dumbed down occasionally, when it's necessary for the plot (*sigh*) But Dean is often shown as being dumb or uncouth (ie, stuffing food in his mouth, talking with his mouth full, etc.) just for comedy purposes, which always annoys me, because no, that's not his real personality. But the main thing about your post I want to point out is that there's a difference between "teasing" and "mocking" which can be mostly in the eyes of the one being teased. Teasing is (generally) gentle and comes from affection. Mocking is generally meant to belittle. But yes, what someone considers a gentle tease can be painful when it's a sensitive or sore spot (imagine even a family member "teasing" a teenager about her weight, for instance. Chances are it's not going to be taken well, even if not meant to hurt.) IMO, Dean had always been told (and truly believed) that Sam was the brilliant one and he was just the brawn, and he was proud of Sam and believed it. He accepted that they had different strengths. But when he showed Sam something he'd done outside of his comfort zone that he *was* proud of (such as the EMF detector) and Sam said something that might have been meant as teasing, it still came out as belittling. Dean's face showed it at the time--he was hurt. IMO, Sam, on the other hand, wasn't particularly sensitive about being called "Samantha" (that was something that had carried over from childhood) or being teased about his awkwardness around women so it wasn't hurtful. Annoying, maybe, but not hurtful. I do think Dean got over his insecurity about his intelligence later (most recently in Baby, when Sam expressed surprise that Dean knew the source of the quote, Dean shrugged it off with a "hey, I read!" comment that didn't seem hurt or defensive.) But the fact that Sam *did* seem surprised is, well, kind of annoying after all this time.

I have to be in Aurora in June, to see a doctor at the Anschutz Medical Center. Frankly (even though I grew up in NYC) I hyperventilate in Denver traffic/anywhere north of Castle Rock on I-25. The last time I saw the doctor was in November, when I scheduled my appointment for the Friday of the Denver Con so I could go straight to the hotel from the doc and spend the weekend enjoying!

I've been in Colorado Springs since 1987, which makes me *almost* a native (I'm actually a native New Yorker!)

It's just embarrassing. I've lived in Colorado for 30 years, and used to work in the local history dept. of the library here. I guess I forgot everything once I retired!

Got it! It was South Park City (or Park City) just outside of (or next to) Fairplay. Sorry! I tried adding links from the ghost town site and the Colorado sites, but they don't want to link. You can Google it, if you're curious.

Or, conversely, if they ever *do* get a community of trusted hunters, they could set up the bunker as a command center (which is how I think the MoL used it) and a home base for the boys. (And I think they would like the idea of the MoL turning in their graves at having a horde of hunters using their resources.) Of course, it should have been Bobby as the head of the command center, with the boys having their own rooms and coming and going on jobs. Maybe that's the way the show will end?

I can agree with you on it not being a real fit for the boys' characters. I think it was set up as a convenience from the storytelling POV--a place where they can have everything they ever wanted at their fingertips, *and* be warded at the same time (and have an unlimited power and water source, so they never have to worry about property taxes or utilities bills or being on the "real world" grid). As that, I don't mind it, and I really enjoy watching them both geeking out at the things inside, and yes, I wish they could have explored it/them more. They could have settled in at Rufus' cabin, or any of Bobby's leftover cabins, but I think they needed a real, non-ramshackle, well-equipped place in order to nest instead of perch. Honestly, I'd have been happy with them at Bobby's, too--it had more personality and a lot of memories in it, though I'm not sure if that would make it better or worse for them. Mostly I want them to have a home they can come back to and consider as a home. The bunker is a beautiful set, and sometimes serves the narrative. I like it, and (as I said before) I hope they can come up with some stories from it. About the MoL--I tend to ignore the "hero legacy" because it doesn't seem to come up very often. I liked the idea of a hunter network, to be part of something bigger than just them and John, but to me, the MoL is simultaneously too much and not enough, if that makes sense.

I stand corrected! I was there once over 10 years ago, driving from Breckenridge to Colorado Springs on the back roads, and stopped at the ghost town/tourist spot, so I didn't realize it wasn't the town itself. Or maybe I'm confusing it with something else. It was a stand-alone ghost town/museum somewhere around Alma/Fairplay, where you paid admission to go walk around and in and out of all the buildings. Sorry for the confusion!

I think at the Denver Con most of the guests commented on being hung over (as I recall, most notably Jared and Mark Pelligrino), but I can chalk that up to a combination of jet lag and the usually unexpected extra potency of alcohol at 5,000 feet.

I don't think there's a "Blackwater Ridge," either, though Lost Creek Wilderness is real. I saw that you had Fairplay listed as the town to visit, and Wikipedia does say that's one of the closest towns, but it's actually a ghost town/tourist spot with just a museum of old mining cabins. Interesting to visit, but probably not a spot the boys would had gone, and definitely not where they met Hailey and her brothers. As a side note, I went to college at New Paltz (State University of New York) and it certainly didn't look anything like the town in Provenance. Yes, it was a long time ago, but it was basically a two-street college town, though there were some very nice, very large old houses on the outskirts. The mountains are nice and some of the best hiking/climbing in the east, so I do recommend a visit.

I think maybe that, as you noted, is the difference between "a set" and a plot starting point. Yes, it would be nice to use the LoL as the starting point for a story (or several), but, after the first few "wow, look at this!" episodes, they *have* for the most part settled down to using it as a set. And that's fine with me. I see it kind of like Bobby's house, where they came to look for help and/or answers (courtesy of Bobby, of course), when needed, but the rest of the time it was just there. It was used occasionally as a major part of the story (the eps with Bobby's wife, the panic room, and its final farewell) but its main purpose was to give the boys someplace safe to come back to. (And, as Catrox just noted, they *have* used the bunker and its contents in just the same way as they did Bobby's house.) So I'm guessing the issue is either that some people don't like the idea of the boys being stable at all--they want them forever 20-something and riding off into the sunset in Baby, alone forever, or that they think the bunker is given too much (visual) importance and not enough actual use. (And that's not counting the inconsistencies about security/warding/rooms that magically appear when needed, etc.) All are valid points. Maybe it is lazy writing or saving money (so they don't have to build so many elaborate motel sets any more) but I see living in the bunker as a logical step towards growth for the Winchesters. They're heading towards middle age, and that (usually) means settling down a little, wanting some stability. It doesn't mean a house in the suburbs with 2.5 dogs and a kid or giving up the road entirely, but it can mean someplace where they can store stuff and recuperate and sleep in a comfortable bed any time they want, and I'm thrilled they have it. Even older "outlaw" bikers usually have good home lives and just ride on weekends. One of the things I always enjoyed about the show was that the characters *did* change and grow (at least, until a plot point or storyline makes them do or say things they outgrew years ago). I just chalk up the inconsistencies in what the bunker can/can't do to bad writing, the same as I do the inconsistencies in what angels/demons/various weapons can or can't do, depending on what the story needs them to do. It annoys me, but not to the point of making me dislike the place, because I see it as so much more. I think, if Bobby's house hadn't burned, he would have left it to them and they would have used that as their base. The bunker just gives them more opportunity for exploring and *potential* for stories. It's just too bad that they haven't used them (yet.) After all, even Baby was mostly a set until season 5, when they started using her as a character in her own right, saving the day, being sidelined or "injured," and she didn't get her own story for 11 years. So, I'm sorry if people don't like it just because it's underutilized. I can understand and appreciate that, and yes, I wish they would do more with it myself. I'm even more sorry if they don't like it just because they think it takes the boys away from the road and the car, because I think that's doing a disservice to the characters. Could they do more with it? Sure. Could they build some really kickass stories around it? Oh, I hope so. But meanwhile, it's a very pretty, very interesting set, and I can hope that they do more with it next year.

I think maybe we just have a different sense of "home." Yes, the cliche is "home is where the heart is," which in Dean's case means Sam (and, when he was younger, John, too). But he's never going to find that mythical home he lost at age 4, and it's a sign of how much he's grown that he's wise enough to know that and accept it. But there is also the home you make for yourself once you're an adult--the place where you can relax, that you fill with the things that give you pleasure, where you can just be yourself with no need for pretense. That's different from being *joyful* at being someplace. For myself--I'm "genuinely happy" to be home when I first get back after a trip, or after a particularly hairy commute. That doesn't mean I spend all my time at home marveling at its wonders and smiling to myself. Once that first "I'm so glad I'm here" phase is over, then it's just a sense of peace and contentment and relaxation, not only because it's a "convenient" place to be, but also because it has all the things that make me happy--my books, my computer, my pictures, my cats. It's not a question of "joy"...it's more a sense of peace. And that's something that's been missing from the Winchester life for way too long. There are places where you stay for convenience--honestly, I think that was Dean's home with Lisa. But IMO, he always seemed perched there, as if he'd put on a whole different life (that of construction worker, husband/father figure, "normal" person), but he never really settled in to it--that's why the car was under wraps, probably why he didn't work as a mechanic, why he kept his gun and salt and whiskey under the bed, out of sight but within reach. He wasn't happy, because he thought Sam was in hell; but he also wasn't comfortable, because he wasn't himself, and that's why he able (and happy) to leave and get back on the road--he was getting back to who he really was. Similarly, if he just wanted "convenience," then he could stay at any of the (seemingly innumerable) cabins that Bobby has tucked away in every state. He wouldn't need a home base--he could just keep moving, from motel to motel to cabin and back again. But he and Sam and even Cas now keep coming back to the bunker, from wherever in the country they happen to be. That's not for convenience--that's a kind of homing signal, which means to me that there is some kind of pull. Sure, he "comes alive" on the road--that's when the adrenaline is pumping and he's having adventures--but he *still* keeps coming back to the bunker.

I (politely) disagree. They also sent Kevin off, if not into the light, then with his Mom, from there (with his kind-of forgiveness). IMO, if it were truly so traumatic/had such bad memories, they could have left at any time. But they still seem to be well settled in and relaxed there. But YMMV, of course.

I'd be the last one (or one of the last ones) to say that they haven't misused or underused or magically hand-waved the use of the bunker. And yeah, it is a "deus ex machina" place where they can pull answers from their asses when the story wants them to (kind of like a stone-and-brick Bobby). But to me, that's not the point of the bunker, just like that wasn't the real purpose of Bobby, though it's what became the most obvious/most annoying aspect in later years. It's not a magical place where they can find answers. It's a home. A home base, anyway. Someplace where the boys can come back to hide and recover and be themselves, whether it's Sam reading books all night or Dean geeking out over old weapons and old porn. And I think that's vital to them, especially now. It's a combination of seeing them grow up/being exhausted by years of sleazy motels/wanting a place of their own, and a sense of continuity, now that they've lost virtually every friend, relative and all other links to permanence except Baby. And this doesn't lessen Baby's importance to them; it also gives *her* a place to rest up and be pampered. Way back in season 1, John said: "I want Dean to have a home." And in season 2, we saw that yes, Dean really *did* want one. It took 6 more years before he got one, and I'd be very sorry to see him lose it again. And for Sam, it's a library he can live in, even if he's been resisting calling it a home. I think he needs it just as much as Dean does. To me, it's another part of the family, just like Baby, and I'd hate to see them lose it. ETA: Just to make it clear, this doesn't mean that they should live there all the time and stop driving around the country. We see that they still take off whenever they get bored/have a case, and we can still see the wonderful motel sets. They've had a life on the road, and of course they'll still want to get out there and just drive now and then. It just means that they know they have somewhere to *come back* to now, like Bobby's place used to be.

AFAIK, no, they don't. The only time they mentioned Chuck in the last x-number of years was when Kevin became a prophet; as I recall, they asked Cas what that meant for Chuck (since there could be only one prophet at a time), and he said something like, "he must be gone," which indicates that they believed he was "just" a prophet. Chuck was alone at the end of Swan Song when the spec started; and I don't think he showed up again (or was mentioned, except for that one comment above) till Fan Fiction, after the boys left.

But that would mean that someone *wanted* the Darkness released, and Death was working with him/her. So who would that be? And why? Or do you just think Death was trying to start another form of the Apocalypse (that is, wipe out all humanity) and therefore reap all souls? One last thought...back in 5.21, Death said that eventually he would reap God, which to me implies that he would be the last thing standing after all else, which would imply (to me, at least) that he can't be killed. Of course, that was many, many writers ago. But I agree with everyone who thinks that wasn't really Death (or at least, not the real Death) who was killed, and I wonder/am hoping that that will come into play soon. Maybe Death facing God to explain whatthehell happened? Or the two of them together facing the Winchesters?

Sorry if I'm changing the subject, and I'm not sure if this is the proper thread or if it should go under the WTFery thread (no spoilers but there is some spec); but having just rewatched season 10 on TNT, two things struck me: In The Executioner's Song, Cain's comment that hit Dean the hardest was (paraphrasing): "You're living my life in reverse." Telling Dean he'd first kill Crowley, then Cas, and finally, the final thing that would turn him into a demon forever, would be that he would kill Sam. That was what convinced Dean that he had to be stopped before it happened, and IMO settled his resolve to turn to Death as his only option. The next thing was in My Brother's Keeper, when Death insisted that Dean be the one to kill Sam, handing him the scythe and stepping back. No matter how hard I tried, I could never ever figure out why Dean had to do it. (There was a lot of hand-waving involved in why Sam had to die at all, but in particular why it had to be Dean, other than the obvious angst.) So...combining the two, it looks like Death wanted Dean to kill his brother...just a few episodes after Cain had declared that would be what would turn Dean into a demon once and for all. Was that just really, really bad writing (ie, no one had read the previous script or remembered it) or do you think there was something else going on? Death wasn't really Death? Or had some ulterior motive? Or was under orders from...someone? Or this was another test for Dean to see if he really was like Cain? After all, Dean *hadn't* killed either Crowley or Cas, even though he had the opportunity and means; but he'd stopped himself in time. Or maybe I just want things to make sense and am looking in the wrong places. And of course I'd like to have some explanation about why death could be killed so easily without any repercussions. Any thoughts?

Having just rewatched The Prisoner today on TNT, I can definitely say that the Stynes entered the bunker in a cloud of dust, therefore presumably an explosion. It also seems to me that the place may be warded from the outside against evil, but evil could either be summoned (ie, Crowley) or brought in (ie, Crowley) by someone with access. Remember that Dorothy brought the Wicked Witch with her. My guess (if there were any logic to it) would be: they rely on magical warding to keep the place *mostly* invisible to humans (that is, off the radar of public services/normal people, as in "these are not the droids you're looking for"), but it's not really impervious to explosives or to people who know where to look. They use magical warding to keep out "evil" (however you choose to interpret that). Evil (non-human) can be brought in as prisoner or invited in, but can't break in on its own. Unless it's needed as a plot point, of course. I don't remember them removing any warding, even temporarily, from the bunker--just those painted on-sigils from other buildings when needed. My own question has to do with the keys: that is, how the heck many keys to the bunker do they have now? I know they started with just one, but it seems that Kevin, Cas, Sam, Dean and even Gadreel have all come in separately, without ringing doorbells or using a magic knock, even at times when they're all in different parts of the country. Did they make a bunch of copies at Ace Hardware? Do they leave the door unlocked when they're at home? Or do they just pass one around like a hot potato and hope that whoever has it will be there to open the door when they need to come in?

Or, to clarify, to keep DeanGirls happier: The plan is to reactivate the MoC on Casifer. Then, using Dean's connection to Amara/the Mark, get Casifer and Amara together in front of the Pit (sorry, the Empty), and Dean pushes/drags them in, with Sam holding on to him as a tether (and maybe he's holding on to Cas.) So it's actually the reverse of Swan Song, with Dean taking the dive to save the world and Sam holding on for dear life, so they can both be heroes this time. Except, of course, Cas goes into the Empty and this time *both* Sam and Dean feel guilty about not being able to save him. *nods* Could work. ETA: And probably Billie comes into it somewhere, since she's the one who knows how to get them to the Empty. Maybe it's only for humans, so a human has to drag the others in...

I don't know if I like the idea, but it can make sense...have Cas take on the Mark and then toss him and Amara into the Empty. We know Lucifer can carry the mark (actually, thinking things further, shouldn't he still have it, since Cain kept his original mark when he passed it on to Dean?) So maybe they just have to reactivate it somehow on Cas. Otherwise, they'd have to convince Lucifer to agree to it, and I don't see that happening. So, how could this work...if they can reactivate it (maybe with one of the God weapons, which they seem to be bringing up again in the next ep?), link him to Amara, then toss Casifer and Amara out together? Cas is willing to sacrifice himself, after all. But maybe Dean's link to Amara comes into play, drawing her to them and maybe making a three-way link that's pulling them all towards the Empty, and it's up to Sam to try to keep/pull Dean and Cas out, by keeping that human connection to hold them to this plane (a parallel to Swan Song). And if they're setting up another cliffhanger, maybe this time Dean gets out but Cas doesn't--and this time we won't *know* if Cas gets saved or not. I'm pretty sure the Empty has to come into this somewhere, or they wouldn't keep hitting us over the head with it, and it seems the perfect place to send Amara (and Lucifer!) And yeah, they'd be dropping major anvils/repeat about Swan Song, but when has that ever stopped them before? This could work for me. Maybe I should write the fic in case they don't.

Yeah, it sneaks up on you when you're least expecting it. About a year after my dad died, I happened to walk past a drugstore that had walkers in the window and suddenly I flashed to helping my dad pick one out about 2 years before, and almost doubled over in the street. It only lasted a few seconds. And about a month ago I was at services at the synagogue, sitting next to a very lovely woman in her late 80s who I've known for about 10 years. We were singing one of the prayers and all of a sudden, her voice sounded just like my mom's at the end: very little and quavery and off-key but trying so hard to keep up; and I just burst into tears right there. Luckily, everyone there knew about my mom so I didn't even have to explain or feel embarrassed. So, yeah, just go with it. It does fade, but a tune up couldn't hurt. At least you can be reassured that it's all normal.

Catrox, I'm not going to repeat what everyone already said (though I agree with it all) or tell you what you already know (I hope I'm not repeating, anyway...) But having just gone through years of major stress, dealing with 90+ year old parents, their illnesses and deaths (and my sister and I alternating between very, very bitter fights and crying on each other's shoulders), I know how that messes with your mind. One day you think you're fine, the next day you're "how could I have said/done/thought that!" And it's perfectly logical to go to a therapist, think everything is settling down and you're coping, and then all of a sudden, days, weeks, sometimes months later it's back. Or something different comes up. Or you wake up in the middle of the night thinking of what you should have done or said months ago. Or *shouldn't* have. I've been told that when stress goes on too long, it's like PTSD, even when you're not really *aware* of how stressed you are, which is pretty common when you have long-term stress that builds gradually instead of one giant adrenalin-dump of an event. Then all of a sudden, your emotions are unstable, or you're doing things you normally wouldn't (like obsessing over something you normally would have brushed off). Sometimes you just have to breathe through it and wait it out. And I do recommend talking to a therapist--I've gotten some good (new) coping mechanisms for times when my usual ones aren't working. And, odd as it sounds, there are times when you don't *want* sympathy or absolution from friends, just someone impartial and non-judgmental to vent to. Again, I know I'm late to the conversation here, and hope I'm not being too repetitive or simplistic. And I wish you luck!