takalotti

If Jack goes dark, I think it could also be because he becomes dissolutioned by his idols, Sam and Dean. Either Lucifer will get his hands on Jack and show him some some of their moments of questionable morals, or he'll remember some of his own experiences with the boys, like pulling a gun on Kaia and any possible pivotal event in the episodes leading to Jack going darkside.

THEN: Holy out of context, Batman... [Jack uses his power to throw the ghoul and inadvertently kills the security guard] Jack (vo): I've only been on earth for a few days and I've already hurt people. [Jack reacts to the guard's death with disbelief] Jack: No. Jack (vo): I know I should feel bad... Sam: He's dead. Jack (vo): ...but I don't feel anything. I must be evil like Lucifer. [Jack uses his power to throw Sam, Dean, and Cas across the war room before vanishing] Castiel: Jack! Sam: He's gone. The voiceover bits were from when Jack talked to the shapeshifter therapist. Back then he didn’t know much about his powers and accidentally released them which hurt people (Sam and Dean in the nursery, the one sheriff, the tattoo artist), so not feeling bad even when he knew he should is understandable. But with the guard, Jack purposely used his powers and killed the guy. And because of this, he FELT BAD. I mean, some viewers might not believe his reaction and feel that they were crocodile tears, and that’s fine. I’m not arguing that. Just don’t show us an incident and overlay Jack's out of context comments while leaving out his IN context comments. Really, Show? Still no reminder that Cas is off the board and why in the THEN segment but still having the boys mention talking to "Cas" in the episode so that casual viewers are confused? Yeah, okay. I know I’m harping on this, but the show is trying to have it both ways. They're having the boys touch base with Cas from time to time or else viewers will be wondering why the boys aren’t assuming he’s missing and looking for him, but since he’s actually being held prisoner they’re having Asmodeus duplicating Cas' voice so the boys won’t suspect his dire straits. Fine. Annoying but fine. But here's the problem. Asmodeus is looking for Jack! In this episode, they’re still keeping in touch with "Cas" about their collective search for Jack and they FIND JACK. It only makes sense that they’d call or text Cas with "Found him in Bismarck!" But the show can’t have them do that because then Asmodeus would know where Jack was and should show up, but they can’t fit that into the episode. So instead they have the boys NOT update Cas, even though they just did at the top of the episode! Gah! To me, it basically comes across as, "We don’t care if viewers forgot what happened to Cas, but don’t forget about Cas, now forget about Cas." NOW: The show actually got me. I believed Jack did fry Derek. I just assumed it was sort of an accident, meaning yes he purposely tapped into Derek's head but no he didn’t mean to take it so far, just got carried away. From the moment Jack pointed to the painting of AW, I assumed he was trying to rescue Mary. Never even considered that he’d be trying to find Lucifer. Did anyone even tell him Lucifer was over there? When Sam copped to wanting to use Jack as an inter-dimensional can-opener way back when, I specifically remember that he left out that Lucifer was there, too. But I don’t remember every conversation since to know if there was any indication that Jack was in the loop about Lucifer being there. So I thought it was a little weird that that was Dean's first conclusion. Then again, when the 3 of them were in the car and Dean said they thought he was trying to find Lucifer, Jack's reaction was "Why would I do that? He’s nothing to me" and not "Lucifer is there, too?" So who knows! I’m rather neutral on Jack, yet I found his "You’re not the only one with powers" cute and amusing. (Sidenote: This reminded me of how the forums have a nickname for him, but for the life of me I couldn’t remember what it was. I was like "Pancake? No. Cupcake? No. I think it was something breakfast related. Muffin? No." Finally came across it in a thread. Cinnamon roll! So close!) So Jack overloads Derek so much that the water at his feet steams up and he screams in pain, Jack stops and says sorry he didn’t mean to, but then Derek just gives him Kaia's info? He’s not at all concerned that Jack might push too hard with her, too? Oookay. First time through I didn’t pay close attention to the scene right after Jack shows his vision of Mary. I was straining to follow what Jack and Sam were talking about that I didn’t even notice that they had gone blurry and their voices became distorted/fuzzy, and I really didn’t see Dean's face. So his pulling a gun on Kaia later came totally out of nowhere for me. Fortunately, you guys pointed out this scene so I didn’t make the same mistake the second time through. Thank you so much. It was beautifully done all around. But man oh man that moment with Dean and Kaia. I shrank back into my couch. Not in fear, like he startled me. More like he crossed a line and I’m scared about what this means for him and I was thinking "Oh God, Dean, no," if that makes sense. Also, upon rewatch, I noticed this came RIGHT after Jack basically said "FU" to the Angels, specifically citing their moral corruption based on how they killed Derek and kidnapped Kaia as his reason not to go with them. Not only do I have a problem with Dean threatening an innocent at gunpoint just because "Whatever it takes" with a side of guilt, but I also don’t want this to be the start of Jack questioning his alliance with the human race. If he ever goes darkside, will that trace back to Lucifer's DNA or Dean's moment of questionable morals here? Okay. I know that this show has no respect for geography. I usually don’t care or even notice if they started driving at night and arrive across the country by dawn. But if you are going to have Jack say "Derek said there are sacred sites, places where the walls between worlds are thin, where it's easy to cross over. I was taking Kaia to the Wind Caves" then I’m going to care if they end up at a shipyard that’s about 6 hours away (actually, I was originally confused because they ran into that ship like that was their intention all along and I was thinking "Really? This is a sacred site?"). I get that they got hijacked by Angels (BTW, how did they get ahead of the boys? That means they weren’t just following the boys but knew where they were headed in order to be driving toward them) but when Kaia suggests opening a door to get out of there, suddenly sacred sites don’t matter anymore. All they needed to do was add "But we're hours from the Wind Caves" to the beginning of Sam's "What if something goes wrong?" Or don’t specify an actual place like the Wind Caves. Instead have Jack say "I was taking Kaia to the closest one," then Kaia suggests opening a door to bail on the Angel attack, and Sam says "How do we know if we're close enough to the site? What if something goes wrong?" and Dean answers "Something already IS going wrong! Close enough or not, let's do it!" Gah! But as stuck on the geography nit pick as I am, and as much as I wish Dean hadn’t crossed that line, this was a fantastic episode. From the moment Sam, Jack and Kaia ran across the bridge into the ship, it really did feel like a movie like some already mentioned here. The cinematography, the music, the intensity. Hoo! I didn’t question why Angels could just pound on the ground to melt warding; I was on edge wondering what was gonna happen. I didn’t question whether the guys were right for scrapping certain suggestions; I was just happy they were at least acknowledging known options and I was on edge wondering if anything would work. This isn’t important, but when Dean and Sam hopped into the footprint, did they know it was a footprint? It didn’t seem like it.

I think this is going to be the start of a long series of attacks on the THEN segments (previously on...). So I didn’t get to rewatch this episode before it got deleted from my CW app, and the transcript I found online didn’t include the THEN segment, but I am absolutely sure that it didn’t include Cas and Lucifer getting locked up by Asmodeus, or that Asmodeus was mimicking Cas and using his phone. And that’s fine if the show just wants to table that storyline for a bit for whatever real life scheduling/cost reasons and get back to it later. Really, I’m fine with that. If it doesn’t play into the current episode, then don’t include it in the THEN segment. But listen up, Show! IF YOU'RE GONNA INCLUDE THE FOLLOWING DIALOG... DEAN: What about Jack? SAM: I talked to Cas. He's got nothing. ...THEN YOU SHOULD REMIND PEOPLE THAT THEY AREN'T REALLY TALKING TO CAS!!! I mean, I’m glad that they included that dialog. Otherwise I’d be complaining "Why aren’t they wondering where Cas is? Last time this happened Dean was a worry wart about it. This makes no sense." But the casual viewer is going to think they’re really talking to Cas and it’ll be confusing later. Won’t it? Also, Exhibit T that these guys need to have a goddamn password when talking to each other, either on the phone all the time or in person when they’ve been separated (other than when everyone’s at the bunker because I’ll buy that it’s perfectly warded, fine). Will it cover possessions or that special kind of shape shifting where they also get your memory? No. But it’s SOMEthing! Most everything else I thought about the episode was already covered in previous posts. Lots of weak spots and odd decisions. Here's a question. It’s just for fun to add to the discussion about the definition of "person who's been to hell and back." So Sam doesn’t count because he portalled in, no deal or dying involved. Dean counts because he made a deal, died, went to hell, and managed to come back. Okay. Hypothetically, what if there was a person who never made a deal but was just such a terrible person that when they happened to die they got sent to Hell, then somehow managed to deal their way out (like Shrike). Would that person count and be able to open the vault? I have another "Just for fun hypothetical" but it ties into the next episode so, spoiler tagged... Wait, what? Why on earth would the boys pick an alias of a thief whose plans DON'T work? I don’t keep track of directors for each episode, but I’ve been noticing a lot of slow reactions this season and agree they are ridiculous. The boys stopping in their tracks when they see Donatello being attacked by a demon and gawking for a second (to justify Dean's super cool blade throwing), Dean and Jody exchanging a "That's weird. Why would she be screaming as if she’s in danger like we just said she was?" look when Patience screamed from her bedroom, the sheriff in Tombstone shooting the ghoul when Dean stepped aside. It’s so awkward and takes me right out of those scenes.

I didn’t actually get to rewatch this episode before it got deleted from my CW app. But I didn’t really have much to add beyond the following since most of the previous posts captured my thoughts already. DEAN: We'll find him. I mean, there's gotta be a sign at some point, right? [...] SAM: I don't know. Maybe he's covering his tracks. CASTIEL: Or this apparent dearth of evidence is, in fact, the evidence. SAM: The evidence of... CASTIEL: Of some horrific misadventure that's befallen him, like being dragged down to Hell by Asmodeus. Or... [Sighs] I don't know, possibly worse, being hijacked to Heaven by angels. DEAN: Yeah, but isn't he too fast and furious for angels? CASTIEL: Maybe. Maybe not. That's what I'm gonna find out. SAM: Find out from who? From – from the angels? CASTIEL: Yes. DEAN: All right. Well, let's go. Me: Aww! Dean isn’t about to let Cas out of his sight for a while!* CASTIEL: Dean, you can't accompany me. My contact is already anxious about meeting and won't speak in the presence of a stranger. Me: Ha! Good luck with that, Cas. DEAN: So introduce me. Then I'm not a stranger. I'll bring a six-pack. Me: See? CASTIEL: Dean, I swore I would protect this boy. Let me do this. Me: Sorry, Cas. Not gonna happen without Dean by your side. DEAN: Don't do anything stupid. Me: Wait, WHAT?!?! So I’m really supposed to believe that Dean spiraled into a depression over losing his Mom and Cas, blamed Jack for Cas' death because Jack "tricked" Cas into believing "lies" about paradise on earth which lead to Cas sacrificing himself to protect Jack, and now Cas is off on another mission due to wanting to protect Jack and Dean is all "'kay bye!" Sorry, not buying it. Also, unless he had a gag-order spell put on him, Cas should have shouted "That’s not me, Dean!" over Asmodeus instead of just looking on kinda bummed. *Yes, I know Cas was out of his sight at the end of Tombstone, but "see ya at home" isn’t the same as "have fun on your solo mission."

How hard was it not to crane your neck to see if she was wearing a blue tie?

That's a good idea. Maybe I will when I get a good picture of him. But you have to make it clear you adopted him BECAUSE he was named Crowley. Plenty of people adopt animals and give them SPN related names, so that’s what makes this different.

For what it’s worth, I don’t think the reason Sam shook his head at Dean about agreeing to help the FBI agent with the case, or said "This is stupid," was because it wasn’t "their kind of case." I think the only reason he wanted to back off was because real FBI was there. Otherwise, I think he would have been all in. Even with FBI there, I think he would have been okay if they responded to the agent's invite to help with "Looks like you got this covered. Donna let us know when you find her" but then really work the case in parallel. Donna could stay with the agent and let the Ws know his whereabouts so they wouldn’t run into him while they’d poked around. They could feed her leads that she could work into the agent's search. I really think Sam only objected to working side by side with the agent. Not saying this will help any, but the bold part that you dislike works for me when I see it as Sam describing his mindset starting from before Jack was born (also, I don’t think of what I'm about to describe as "pretending" but more like "fooling myself" or "being in denial"). I can buy that after Amara brought Mary back, and Cas hadn’t died for Jack yet, Sam believed that the Hunter life could work out for them. That things could be relatively good. But then they lost Mary to the AW and Cas got killed. He tried to refocus his "This could work" mentality on helping Jack, but then he got lost to the AW as well. I think he’s trying to describe feeling stupid now for believing back then that things could work out well.

Yeah, I guess that's what they were going for, but it just didn't come across to me that way on first viewing. The actual dialog... S: We really gotta get moving. Keep looking for that door. D: Yeah, if there is a door. S: Well, last time we opened one, it stayed open... D: Yeah, for a few hours. We've been here for what? Two days? And change? I mean, look, man, I hope you're right, I really do, but if you're not... Dean's "If there is a door" sounds pretty fatalistic to me, like he doesn't actually mean the "if" and he's really saying, "Yeah, there's no door, dude." So I think on first viewing I got so focused on that part and took the scene as "Dean is certain the door is closed, his only reason is that the other one was only open for a few hours, so this one must only last a few hours, ignoring Crowley's spell." Watching that scene again, I noticed the last part more, which I had forgotten about by the time I wrote my ranty post. He's genuinely allowing for the possibility that the door is still open, but also expressing his worries that maybe it's not, so they shouldn't cut chow-time short to look for a door because this might be it for them. I still wish Dean had said something more like, "Yeah, but we closed it only a few hours later. We don't know how long they last beyond that. I mean, I hope it's still open somewhere, but all I know is that every time we popped back and forth through the other one, it was right behind us and we haven't found this one even after what? Two days? We might be here for a while, so eat up, man." And while I'm revising the dialog, I wish Sam had said "Well, last time we used one, it stayed open." Because they didn't open it, they just found it and figured it must have been Jack's doing. This is the first one they had any part in opening.

Just to be clear, when I said "not a controlling gesture" it was to make sure I was describing the kind of reaching out I meant in the pleading scenario. I didn’t mean his body language in the actual scene was trying to control her progress either by grabbing her, blocking a door, or otherwise towering over her in intimidation. But I do think he had "I’m putting my foot down" body language.

This is not my full episode analysis, but I can’t bottle this one comment up for very long. WTF is up with the rift retcon? Dean thinks the door is probably gone. Sam mentions the other one stayed open. Dean says yeah, for a few hours but they’d been in not-a-Dino world for two days. You guys plus Crowley and Cas put together the ingenious plan to lure Lucifer through the rift and then perform a spell to close it and trap him there! Whether or not it makes sense that Crowley would have an oh so handy spell for closing a rift that in theory had never existed before, whether or not the spell actually worked or just coincidentally happened right before the rift was gonna close anyway, that was the plan and as far as Dean knew, it worked. Why is he now assuming rifts just expire after a few hours if left alone? And since when does the rift get smaller as it starts to expire? Did the first one do that? I don’t remember seeing that or anyone commenting on that, but I could very well be missing something and will happily respond to evidence with "Oops, please strike my rant from the record then." Does this mean Crowley sacrificed himself for no good reason? Instead they could have trapped Lucifer in holy oil in the apocalypse world, popped back into our world, and then just waited for the rift to close? It just stinks of TPTB going "We need this rift to close eventually. Can’t have them doing the spell with a sacrifice every time. Let’s have it just expire! And to ramp up the suspense, let’s have it shrink a bit so that there’s the risk of getting trapped!" On a related note, I don’t know why the one-passenger rift that Michael created didn’t bother me like this when that episode aired, but it has the same stink. "Can't leave it open forever, don’t wanna let other characters over. Let’s have it only let one being through!" But I can probably hand wave that since Jack didn’t make that one. But Jack made both of the ones Dean and Sam went through! ARGH!!! Regarding whether or not James issued an ultimatum, the only reason I think he did was the body language of the scene. The words on paper could go either way. But if he meant "If you go, I’m scared that the Hunter life will get you killed and you’ll never come back the way I want you to" I’d expect a more pleading tone, reaching out as a protective gesture, not a controlling gesture. I don’t remember it going down like that. James' body language was more "I can’t say it’s okay for her to go, because I am NOT okay with that. Instead I need to make it clear that I do NOT support this decision because in the past when I’ve put my foot down about not supporting a decision my obedient daughter would fall in line."

Most likely a case of subconsciously just following his big brother's lead.

True. And all of the following is moot, but really what I’m thinking is that this routine is something that should have been in place for a long time. Basically since Bobby doused Dean after Cas brought him back from hell (ETA: Actually, now that I’m thinking about it, back then it would have been pretty funny if Dean had doused himSELF with holy water while at the gas station or something). So by this point it would be a routine thing that they just do, not even a decision really. Dean could still be messed up and not even question whether Cas is Cas, but out of habit Sam would just start up the process while they were all talking. And even if Cas were EmptyCas, I'd imagine he’d still pass all the tests so it wouldn’t have messed up any possible twist that might be coming. And now I’m picturing Dean singing My BF's Back to all the baddies of the world.

Even after seeing the whole episode, I’m still not really sure what the benefit was for opening the show with a 48 hours later segment, and then going back to where 13.05 left off. I know it would be too silly of a bit for such a poignant scene, but with how many times they’ve all been brought back I think there should be a little "holy water, iron, silver, whatever else" routine they go through every time now. Even if it’s done amid the What Happened To You kind of dialog, just passing objects and flasks back and forth. I’m a little surprised Dean brought Cas right to Jack without any fuss. In the big argument at the end of 13.03, Dean blamed Jack for Cas' death because Jack "tricked" Cas with empty promises of paradise and that’s what made Cas go so overboard protecting Jack. I’m not saying he actually could have kept Cas from Jack, but I just thought there’d be some resistance. "No way! I’m not gotta let you sacrifice yourself for him again!" I was also a little surprised Jack was able to guess who Cas was. When he was born, he asked "Father?" to at least Sam and the pirate statue, so I don’t think he’s known what Cas looked like from the womb (#SentencesWeNeverExpectedToUtter, #HashtaggingOutsideOfSocialMedia). Since then, I remember Jack getting a flash of red-eyed, chained-up Lucifer, but I’m not remembering if he had such a flash about Cas. If not, I guess maybe he saw some pictures that the boys have? Or maybe he recognized Cas' voice? Loved watching the bison nose boop again now that I know what he was doing. I think when Dean jumped back he mumbled "That's real," so I guess he went in thinking it would feel plasticky but it actually felt like skin. I get what some are saying about Cas seeming off, having lots of instances of pausing before responding which could be because he’s actually EmptyCas and needs an extra moment to dig through the memory download. But then there will also be moments like when Jack jumps up to wake the boys and Cas immediately tries to stop him, no pause at all. So I’m still undecided. It could also be that his experience in the Empty (or the possible terms he left on) has left him more carpe diem-y, soaking up every minute rather than rushing through them. Has Jack flinched at the threat of being hurt before? Since he’s never actually been WOUNDED, why would he seem scared of Dean almost shooting him? Sorry sorry, I know I’m not the only one who noticed, but I love these little nuggets... Cas: I told you. He’s an angry sleeper. Like a bear. </Destiel Realist giggling> Can we get an episode with movie night in the bunker? Please? Gotta love the "we'll fit right in" followed by donning cowboy hats and wearing a bolo tie and cowboy boots, saying "howdy, partner" and "much obliged," and then none of the cops are wearing any such accessories or saying any such cliche southern phrases. Anyone here watched Pushing Daisies? Sarge and the Coroner do the same skeptical "Mmhm." I thought Sam's amusement at Jack using an EMF detector in a graveyard was cute. No eyeroll from Sam when Dean mocked Dave for enjoying playing cowboy? Just weighing in on the topic of the guard: I simply assumed that the only meaning of Cas' touch having no effect was because the guard was already dead (meaning he could heal injuries but not revive someone who's dead). Cas' body language wasn’t "why doesn’t my touch work?" He looked at Jack like "I’m sorry, it’s too late." But I also don’t have detailed memories of when an angel was able to just touch a dead person back to life like you guys do. I don’t mind the slapstickish "Nope, mm-mm, I don’t wanna, okay" dive into the hole, the Die Hard silliness, or the fall out the tunnel door (he did look around first). But when dealing with a ghoul, which can take the form of the dead person it eats and had the opportunity to kill Athena and/or the Sarge, isn’t it a little sloppy to assume Athena and Sarge are the original models? Not that I know how you test for a ghoul, and it’s all moot since Dave shows up a second later, but still. (Same with later when Dean shows up at the bunker, though that can make more sense because how would Dave know where the bunker was?) And there was way too long a pause between "No, but he is" and the Sarge firing. Dave could have totally shot someone in that time. No reason they couldn’t have had the Sarge shoot immediately and then cut to him still holding the gun. It seemed weird that Cas was just sitting during Jack's meltdown. I guess it was supposed to show that he wasn’t going to be confrontational, just supportive by listening and giving him space? I don’t know. He doesn’t even lean in (just barely sits up at the very end). It’s a very passive posture. How the dialog should have gone... J: Every time I try and do something good, people get hurt. D: Yeah, that’s kind of the Winchester way. Welcome to the family. I thought for sure that while hearing platitudes from Sam and Cas would be meaningless to Jack because he knew they already liked him, Dean's sympathetic comments would sink in since he knows Dean doesn’t want to think well of him. So I thought he’d settle down and start to forgive himself. Wasn’t expecting him to take off, and in such an ironic fashion.

"I even knelt down so you could be taller than me" ??? Dying!

you pause the SPN episode because your 4 year olds woke up from nap, and when they come into the room and just see an image of Cas on screen... Kid 1: Oh, this show isn’t for kids. Kid 2: It’s about the two boys. because apparently they’ve walked in on enough paused episodes of SPN that they know... a) if they ask if they can watch it, I’ll say "No, it’s not for kids" b) it’s the show "about the two boys" even when neither of those two boys is on screen.

Wait. There’s a movie with time traveling ferrets? Where has this been my whole life?!?! Thank you, Sam! Not the most critical nit pick ever, but I think it was a little sloppy to be handing over a badge out in the open. Why would real FBI agents ever need to do that? Keep that kinda stuff in the car, boys. After they left Shawn's house and pulled up to the hotel, my closed captioning said "Baby purring" ??? In discussing the morning scene with Dean on the floor, there were comments about Sam stepping over Dean (the tone I read in those posts made me believe the posters felt it was disrespectful for Sam to do this). But the placement of the bed, bathroom, door, and Dean wouldn’t have Sam trying to step of Dean for anything that I could see. Okay, so ghosts can’t cross salt lines, got it. But they can pass through stuff like doors and walls. Okay. But then why do salt lines only need to be drawn at doors and windows? When the doctor came part way through the door and got held up by the salt line, why not just go 2 feet over and walk through the wall instead? And is this the first time a ghost blew away a salt line? Sure is a handy trick for a ghost to have! I thought this episode had the nicest version of forcing a talk that I can remember. When Sam was asking Dean what happened, he didn’t push, he nudged (pointing out things like the ghosts all being gone before they could go to the bodies). There was no yelling confrontation to make one talk or to make the other stop asking. Just level "We can talk about it later," "We won’t talk about it later, you know that." Dean: You know, my whole life I always believed that what we do was important. No matter what the cost, no matter who we lost, whether it was Dad or Bobby or .... And I would take the hit. But I kept on fighting. Because I believed. That we were making the world a better place. And now Mom, and Cas, and I don’t know. I don’t know. So at the ... it seemed like Dean was going to say another name but couldn’t bring himself to say it. Thoughts on who it might be? At first I assumed it was Cas (much like he couldn’t finish saying "Cas is dead" in 13.01, but that doesn’t fit with the "timeline" of what he was describing. Unless he was talking about one of the other times Cas died, like when he walked into the reservoir and Dean kept his trench coat. I thought Cas' face at the end made sense. He died looking at Sam and Dean, thinking he’d never see them again. He woke up in the Empty feeling lost and cut off, wanting nothing more than to get back to the Winchesters and not knowing how. He came back to Earth and must have had to wander around for a while before he could manage to call them. And here they were again. Just looked like he was overwhelmed with gratitude for something he didn’t think he’d have again. Though I can see there being the possibility that his return has conditions (like he has to go back after a time) we don’t know about, since he and EmptyCas could have talked more before he got sent back.

Oh, no I didn’t mean she really hypnotized them. I was just referring to when Sam asked Mia about how her patients accepted her appearing as their dead loved ones and she said "They chalk it up to hypnotism, a lucid dream..." So I was just guessing maybe he believed he was under hypnosis when he saw his dead wife the first time, to try to explain why he’d say "But you’re dead" the second time. I really need to stop trying to make sense of this stuff. I guess. But didn’t they already tell him Lucifer was a bad guy? I’m thinking in the episode in the motel with Donatello. I can’t rewatch that one anymore, though, so I can’t support this claim, not that’s it's too important.

FWIW, when I chime in this late after an episode, I do make sure I read all the posts so I do my best not to repeat much that’s already been discussed. So in the opening, the guy comes home, sees his dead wife, and says "No. How? You’re ... dead." But later we learn that he already saw an "apparition" of his dead wife by the shifter therapist. So why does he find it so hard to believe that he’s seeing her this second time? Was it because the first time he was "under hypnosis" so he believed what he was seeing was just his subconscious giving him a vision? I just don’t like it when tv shows and movies give misleading reactions that don’t work once you know what’s really going on. For the most part I liked Sam's response when Jack called him out on using him. The best part was "If this doesn’t work, if that can’t happen, that’s okay. Because I do care about you." What I didn’t like is that Sam didn’t mention that Lucifer is also in this other world on the other side of the door he’s hoping Jack can open. That needs to be disclosed to Jack so he can make an informed decision about if he wants to try to figure out how to do it. Or is Sam afraid of how that knowledge would play into Jack's motivation? (Either refusing to rescue Mary because he’s scared of how evil Lucifer is, or starting to sympathize with Lucifer and wanting to free him.) I don’t think Sam is that conniving, but he might not be doing it on purpose. Then again, it’s frustrating to see Sam leave out this key piece of info in a conversation that includes the words "I should've told you. I’m sorry." When the shifter was being Scotty, the little boy, how was he in the car without being noticed by his mom until he decided to sit up? I don’t think he was small enough to fit under any of the seats. So all he could do was hunker down in the footwell, but wouldn’t she have seen him or at least noticed him getting up onto the seat? I don’t know. Again, I don't like the show misleading us with the feel of a ghost appearing out of nowhere but then on rewatch the logistics of it being a shifter doesn’t necessarily work. I just see Dean ordering Jack around as Dean being a bit of a brat. "I don’t like being on a hunt with him, so I’m not gonna make this pleasant for anyone." I don’t happen to see it as something deeper like "I'm going to emulate Dad despite the fact that Dad's ways weren’t that good" or "I’m actually trying to test him and see how he does." By the way, how backwards was the whole thing with sending Jack to the hotdog stand? Dean's entire position on Jack so far has been "Let's keep him in the bunker where the only people he can hurt are me and Sam" and "If he’s in the bunker then that means he’s not out there doing God knows what." And now it’s "I’ll send him across the street to interact with other people and hope no one accidentally bumps him or yells at him for being clueless, setting off one of his nephil tantrums." Yes, writers, this totally makes sense. When they were walking up to Mia's house... Me: Haha! Dean has to go to therapy! Because seriously, that boy has needed therapy since he was 4. Unfortunately I don’t think he actually got anything out of it, though hearing something real from Sam was kinda worth it. I did read all the comments about how Sam's admission doesn’t make much sense, and they’re right, but I didn’t really need it to make sense. For me, the point was for both Dean and Sam to talk about their emotional states and have their eyes opened by hearing the other's emotional state, so I was good with it. Maybe that makes me a lazy viewer, I don’t know. I did think it was funny how much "textbook psychology" was in Sam's wording with Mia. So perfectly Sam. Does anyone remember how Sam reacted to shed shifter skin in the past? He seemed super squicked out by it here and I just thought that was odd. So in some earlier posts I said that Mia wasn’t in her office when she appeared to her patients as their dead loved ones. I thought she was appearing at their homes, so the patients wouldn’t have connected her to it. But on rewatch, that little flashback with Wes does look a lot like her office. So yeah, I don’t know. I still love the bathtub garbage disposal idea. When Cas was just calling out "Hello?" into the void of the Empty, I was expecting things to play out very differently. I was expecting something a little more haunting. Like being alone in the dark but times infinity. Since I know that wouldn’t be exciting after a while, I thought the way Cas would get out would be more along the lines of Jack or Cas realizing there was some sort of psychic link between them and using that, or seeing if there was a similar link between Cas and the boys. Perhaps some instances of Cas hearing any of them (I don’t know why, maybe just when they talk about Cas) and desperately trying to call out back to them but not being heard at first. Like the equivalent of seeing Cas screaming and banging on glass behind the boys but going unnoticed. And then finally he’d get through, they’d realize he was alive but trapped, and they needed to figure out how to free him. But obviously that’s not what we got at all. This was a lot weirder. I can appreciate what they were trying to do, a bit, but I didn’t like it just because I could feel how hard they were trying, if that makes sense. It didn’t help that EmptyCas pushing Cas down to his knees made my juvenile side giggle and took me out of the scene. Even as a Destiel Shipper (well, actually a Destiel Realist which means I know Destiel does not and will never exist on the show and I’m okay with that, I'm fine with it only existing in fantasyland, and I enjoy most of the winks/nods we get) I thought Castiel first talking about Sam and Dean needing him and not at all about Jack, when he supposedly feels fatherly responsibility/duty for Jack, was super odd and out of place. Couple that with the Empty's line about "I know who you love" and I was just taken out of the scene for how forced it felt. If those were supposed to be winks or nods, they were not good ones. When EmptyCas said "There is nothing for you back there. No. Here, let me show you" I was expecting some sort of future vision about what he believed (or wanted Cas to believe) Cas would be in for if he went back. But it was just flashbacks of Cas' worst times on Earth so far. I’m not really sure how that demonstrates there’s nothing for him back there. I didn’t think about the possibility that maybe that was EmptyCas and not our Cas at the end until I read this thread. I was actually wondering where Cas woke up. Earth? AU? (No, not sepia). Some other world or realm? Another time? But the idea that it’s EmptyCas is interesting. The memory download and appearing like Cas to us does work as a set up for that. And the way he reverently touched the grass and basked in the sun could either be Cas being so glad to be back, appreciating little things he took for granted before, or it could be EmptyCas experiencing Earth (just out of curiosity?) for the first time and realizing that this is better than Nothingness. I’m curious to see how this plays out.

... you’re watching the Macy’s Thanksgiving Day Parade and think to yourself "'Confetti! It’s a parade!' But wait, it actually IS a parade so that’s actually not funny." Glad I didn't SAY it. My family would have looked at me like "Um, yeah."

I’m not sure Sam's wariness is about Cas (either not being convinced Cas is really Cas, or waiting for the other shoe to drop). I'm wondering if it’s more of a "Look, it’s nice that Cas is back and that IS a good thing. But remember Mom? How are you this happy when Mom is still trapped?" But he didn’t get into it because he still loves Dean and doesn’t want to spoil his happy.

Haha! I saw him jab his finger out, but thought he was just pointing at another picture. Like, "Oh, and that guy!" Thanks for pointing this out!

Did it make you go "Wait, does that mean TNT are also monsters?"

But wasn’t that before her "Enough is enough. Next time you die you’re going somewhere no one can bring you back: The Empty. And all the reapers are in on this plan" speech? And FWIW, I always took that speech as the show’s attempt to bring the audience back to a state of "Oh no, he/they might die!" tension like in the beginning of the show rather than the meme respresented state of "We don’t always die, but when we do, we don’t" we’ve been in for a while.

For what it’s worth... When Sam woke up, Dean's bed looked untouched. So I don’t think they both went to bed, Sam fell asleep, Dean felt restless and headed out. Because I can’t imagine he perfectly remade his bed before taking off. Could they both have been getting ready for bed, Sam fell asleep while Dean was brushing his teeth, and then Dean felt restless and headed out and that was the reason the bed was untouched? Yes. When found on the floor, Dean was wearing his suit. If he went to bed and then decided to go out, I’d think he'd put on jeans, T-shirt, top shirt, leather jacket, and not his suit. Could Sam have fallen asleep before Dean got out of his suit and then Dean decided to go out? Yes. But I'm more inclined to take the clues of the made bed and suit to mean that after they checked in, Dean said "You know what, Sammy? I think I’ll take your suggestion for some cheering up. I WILL go to that strip club. But not with you. We both know you hate it. Don’t wait up!" So Sam didn’t wait up, went to sleep, (I’m not going to theorize why he didn’t he hear Dean come back), and when he woke up to see the unmade bed thought Dean didn’t come back at all, only to find him on the floor. Separate from all that, I didn’t take Sam's reaction to passed out Dean to be contradictory. I didn’t see it as "I suggested a strip club and drinking, then I didn’t realize he didn’t stay in bed, then I come to find out he DID go to a strip club and went drinking. Ugh! I can’t believe he’d go and do just what I suggested!" I'm more likely to read his exasperated reaction to mean "Man, I offered to go with you, you insisted on going on your own and now look at you. If you would’ve let me go with you, I’d have made sure you didn’t overdo it. You'd be in bed sleeping off a buzz instead of on the floor gearing up for a massive hangover." I agree he should have rolled Dean, but I don’t think it’s so bad that he left Dean on the floor rather than rousing him while moving him to a bed.

So Dean blames Jack for Cas getting killed. And now Jack has at least started the process of Cas coming back. When Dean finds out, is that going to change his stance on whether or not Jack has to die? Starting back at the beginning... I don’t have any problem with gore or monster kills, but that opening scene of the wraith killing Missouri's friend was SUPER uncomfortable. To a much lesser degree, I was also uncomfortable with Sam not immediately closing Jack's door and giving him privacy with Kelly's video. And how long was he going to stand there if he hadn’t received a call? I don’t even know if there was a show reason for Sam overhearing some of it. Was it just supposed to be another instance of "Sam gets to see Jack when he’s vulnerable or sincere, but Dean doesn’t, so that’s why they see Jack so differently"? Pretty sure Kelly read the Harry Potter series. "Who you’re supposed to be isn’t fate, it isn’t me, it isn’t your father. You are who you choose to be" = "It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities" Okay, why did Missouri need to call the boys for help when she did? The way it played on screen was basically "Dede gets killed, M calls Sam, as soon as M hears about the hole and the brains she guesses Wraith at the same time as Dean, M reads the objects and gets all the info about the wraith." So what did she need Jody or Dean for up to that point? Was it just that the police weren’t giving her answers, so Jody was needed to even get the hole and brains facts? And she couldn’t get into the crime scene to read the objects without Jody? If so, I wish that had been a little clearer. I get where Sam is coming from and what he’s trying to do, but IMO he’s going about "training" Jack all wrong. Step 1 shouldn’t be trying to see if Jack can make something happen on purpose. Step 1 should be redirecting his reflexes when scared/angry, so that he does something more like put up a shield to protect himself rather than throwing people into walls. Step 2 can be seeing if he can make something neutral, like moving a pencil, happen on purpose. Step 3 can being trying to something good on purpose (healing a wound). And after lots of discussions on morals and finding out if someone is really trying to hurt him, Step 4 can being doing something "bad" on purpose (knocking them out, or binding them, or even destroying them). So there are two times this episode where Jack starts getting pissy, Sam says "Okay," and then Jack chills out and asks "Really?" Is there a significance to this? Is this supposed to be like "Okay, the first couple episodes were Jack's infancy and toddlerhood sort of. This is his adolescence"? Which could make the rest of the sentence "Really? I get my way?" Or is it more about Jack knowing how Dean feels about him, so he's all surprised when Sam is more accepting of him? Like, is the rest of the sentence actually "Really? You’re not mad at me like Dean is even though I just yelled at you?"? I watched the episode twice and I still don’t know when Missouri knew she was going to be killed. Nothing adds up. And "I run, you catch me, I die. I stay, I die. But this way my people, they’re going to murder your ass" makes zero sense to me. Why would one scenario of her dying make Dean and Jody any more likely to kill the wraith than a different scenario of her dying? I’m not even sure I’m interested in trying to figure it out. What was with Sam freaking out when Jack wasn’t on the screen anymore? It just seemed like a weird overreaction, especially for someone who doesn’t think Jack is evil. It’s not like furniture was overturned, hinting at a kidnapping. He could have gone to the bathroom, Sam. Sheesh. I mentioned this in the quotes thread, but I had to laugh at these two bits of dialogue... James: Patience, I said now! & Jody: Patience, wait. Dean's response to Patience waffling about what to do with her psychic abilities was interesting. Just last season, Dean and Sam were talking about their legacy being all the people they saved. Now he’s all "There's no joy in it. There's nothing but pain, horror and death." Not saying this is an inconsistency, just that it speaks to his current depression. Also, why are they making it sound like her options are "suppress psychic abilities" or "be a hunter with psychic abilities"? She could just be a non-hunter with psychic abilities. When it comes to B vs. J topics, I’m pretty neutral, so I hope this doesn’t trigger anything. In the shouting match at the end of the episode, I’m pretty sympathetic to both boys. I really don’t think Sam was waiting to pounce on Dean for what Jack told him. I didn’t read his mention of Missouri's death as getting that topic out of the way so he could lay into Dean. I can’t say he was definitely giving Dean the benefit of the doubt before his arrival since Dean HAS told Sam he plans on killing Jack, but I just didn’t think Sam looked like he was itching to get into an argument. I do think he planned on talking about "You told Jack you were going to kill him" but more in zen mode. When Dean asks if Jack turned yet, that’s when Sam's demeanor seemed to change to being combative and accusatory. Perhaps a little of "Oh, you’re going to assume the worst and get all pissy at me? Okay, I’ll do the same." Once Dean says it wasn’t like that, Sam seems to back down a bit and sincerely ask "Then how was it?" Something about those nuances just make me believe Sam was doing his best to give Dean the benefit of the doubt before he arrived, got snippy, but then went back to giving Dean the benefit of the doubt and wanting to hear him out. But Dean didn’t explain (not saying he needs to explain himself, but it sure would clear the air). Instead he deflected and turned the conversation a different way. And that was okay with me. He’s hurting. And the silver lining of the argument is that Dean finally said WHY he was hurting and hating Jack so much.