slf

I never had a problem with it because I think Katie Holmes is gorgeous. Also I hate it when there's a girl who's clearly beautiful but no one is ever interested in her. There are very few teen and YA shows that don't do this. I was just watching an episode of another dorky teen show and the main character, who is model pretty, has never had a boyfriend or been kissed. In reality, every straight guy in her school would have made a pass at her by that point. The whole dying wish thing was supremely stupid, tho, I agree.

We aren't talking Austen novels, we're talking the standards of early 20th century England, which weren't especially forgiving of women. What does Mary's motivations have to do with anything? You brought up marrying well being a trivial consideration if I don't hold the women to the sexist standard of their day to which I pointed out that marrying well was a survival tactic. Not everything is about defending or bashing Mary. You have talked yourself in circles, I'm afraid.

Okay. It's weird that every time the discussion turns to Mary and Edith's fights it always comes down to what Mary could have done better. As for your last question, I think that's better asked of Edith. LOL, Mary wanted to be the kind of person who didn't have to deal with Edith's constant rudeness and whining.

Pretty sure Holmes has Bell's Palsy.

What do the Norse sagas have to do with anything? A lot of things happened in them. Yeah, Mary should have just straight up ignored her sister. But that failing isn't equal to Edith's and I'm not gonna hold it against someone that they respond in kind when someone's being intentionally rude or mocking toward them. No, it requires that we understand that these women lived in a deeply patriarchal and misogynistic society that devalued women and their abilities. Marrying well was a survival tactic for virtually all women, everywhere in the world, in their time.

The average woman at that time wouldn't have an education on par with the Crawley daughters. The average noblewoman wouldn't have an education par with the average nobleman, unless her family was very concerned with her having a more thorough education. My point was not about whether or not Edith would have the opportunity to be a physicist, but that she had countless opportunities, things to do. Which she did.

If your books still bring you joy or some other strong emotion then Marie Kondo wants you to keep them. But a lot of people keep books they didn't like or they have bookshelves full of books they haven't read even though they've had them for years. Kondo just wants people to ask themselves - do you have those books because you genuinely want them (because you are going to reread them or what have you) or because you want to be, or want other people to think you are, the sort of person who likes/has read those books? One of my exes owned a bunch of books - mostly Russian and French literature - that he never read because he thought it made him an intellectual. His identity was wrapped up in being a "book lover" (and coffee drinker and introvert, and I just described about a quarter of all people) even though he didn't like to read books all that often and when he did it was stuff he would consider low-brow. But he would go to bookshops all the time. He would flip out if he watched this show. And I think a lot of the backlash about Kondo's approach to books is by people like my ex. Kondo just wants everyone to be authentic to who they are and stop smothering themselves in belongings that don't reflect that.

Mary told Matthew that women like her attended functions, etc. Mary was very socially active and so never whined about this like Edith did. Not sure why Mary has come up. Many noblewomen took interests in charities or special causes and supported them with financial contributions, fundraising, or other forms of advocating. Privileges are always the same as opportunities, especially for the wealthy. Having the privilege to travel, to receive an education, etc., are all opportunities themselves that offer access to even more opportunities. Being the daughter of an Earl afforded Edith many opportunities, few of which she took in he early seasons. She was able to learn to drive, something most women and even perhaps most men wouldn't have had the opportunity to do at that time, because her family could afford a car and a chauffeur. She was able to become a writer because of her education. The prison they were in wasn't privilege it was misogyny.

I'm not ignoring when the mores of their time might have been their motivation (tho that only ever seems to be invoked in defense of Edith), I'm choosing not to hold them to the misogynistic standard that society did. There's a difference between saying "ultimately Mary and Edith are both responsible for their choice to betray their sister's secret" and dismissing their aim to marry well. One was motivated by personal vendetta the other was a survival tactic. Not at all the same. "Pretty shitty" is another way of saying "very shitty".

I'm not trying to have it both ways, actually. Just because the deeply misogynistic era they lived in considered them both to be immoral for choosing to have pre-marital sex doesn't mean I or the audience have to. Choosing to expose your sibling (and by extension the rest of your family), or anyone, to public ridicule, and permanently damaging their reputation (with many more possible consequences) because you got mad at them is pretty shitty no matter the time period.

Neither Mary or Edith is at fault for sleeping with a man and neither is responsible for what the other chose to do. Edith is fully at fault for the Pamuk letter, not Mary. Mary is at fault for Bertie finding out about Marigold, not Edith. I think Edith very much wanted to best Mary, not simply be her equal. That's why she decided to make getting Strallan's attention into a competition. I think Edith's life only improved when she stopped waiting for things to just happen to her and started going out and pursuing a life. Sybil was the best loved daughter and that not only never bothered Mary, she seemed to love Sybil just as much as her parents did. I fully believe that is the reason she took to Tom so well, not just because he was a good person- but because he loved Sybil as much as she did. I think Mary's treatment of Edith was due specifically to her relationship with Edith.

There are many ways to be spoiled. I was born and raised in the third class, quite poor, and knew tons of other kids from similar backgrounds who were spoiled because their parents coddled them and never made them learn to take care of themselves (this was worse among the boys). I've known middle class people who couldn't even do their own laundry because mommy always did it for them. Paris Hilton, a 1%, did an interview where she had to ask her sister what a washing machine was called because she didn't know. Spoiled. People who have spent their lives being protected from the consequences of their actions, from having to earn their own way, are spoiled. Every one of the Crawley girls, like all members of their class, where spoiled. Edith was no exception. "What about my dress?!" Remember that? I mean, sure, everyone thought Carson was having a heart attack - the man couldn't even stand - but hey, you know what was more important to Edith than calling for a doctor? Her dress. I call that pretty damn spoiled. Edith did indeed have countless opportunities. Noblesse oblige. It would have been expected of her, actually. Some kind of charity work, to be the patron of something perhaps. She could have taken up some kind of artistic past time or something like horse riding, attended events, etc. She was an Earl's daughter, she had more privileges than the vast overwhelming majority of the women in England (and many more countries besides). W/r/t Edith having romantic opportunities - she was written, specifically, as a woman who chose not to attend events and engage in normal social activities and so didn't have as many friends or suitors. People may not like that writing choice but it was part of her characterization. Mary wasn't favored by her parents in this area. She was the one who first wrote to Evelyn Napier, and was considering him as a potential husband. Cora became involved in that later. Pushing Patrick and then Matthew on Mary had nothing to do with preference (Mary, after all, didn't want either) but rather tradition. Strallan was brought in as a Hail Mary.

Recently finished the season on Netflix and I think this show is funny and charming as hell. Michelle, Mary, Sister Michael, and Grandpa Joe are my favorite. It took a while for Clare and Erin to grow on me, tbh, because the actress who plays Clare really exaggerates her expressions and Erin is very high strung but I've come to love them, too. It's awful but almost everything people say to and about James cracks me up, from his introduction straight through to the finale when Gerry wanted to basically sacrifice him to the Orange Order. (That was probably my favorite episode.) I'm thrilled the show is already being considered for a third season (and the second debuts in March).

Yikes. Anyone who rapes isn't a hero, I don't care if the misogynistic writing has the heroine fall in love with him. Carlisle not continuing to blackmail a woman into marrying him doesn't make him an okay guy in my book. That he even tried it makes him scum. Anyway, this is the Edith thread not the Carlisle thread so I agree with everyone who's said that Edith had the best wedding dress on the show.

Reign of Fire. Matthew McConaughey as a dragon slayer. Christian Bale tries so hard to make it respectable but McConaughey is just Not Having It. It's a hilariously bad movie.

The person who is being targeted by a person/group/conspiracy but doesn't know why. They/their family have some mysterious backstory they're totally unaware of. They spend the show shouting thing slike, "WHY ME?" and more often than not there's at least one person who knows all about what's going on but for some reason refuses to reveal the information. The Blacklist is currently the worst offender. There are some shows that don't even start out that way but the writers incorporate it over time.

Carlisle did resort to trying blackmail. Robert sussed that out, as well (in the Christmas special, IIRC), as Mary's motivation for staying with Carlisle. Carlisle was never retconned. We hear about him before we meet him and what we hear isn't good. It's confirmed within just a few scenes that his reputation is justified.

Edith didn't say some truths, she was insulting and rude. Which Tom almost never was to Mary so I don't follow the comparison. There was gossip among the servants that spread throughout various households. A friend of Carson's wrote him a letter to tell him about it and he showed it to Cora. They were able to mostly contain it all until Edith wrote a letter to the Turkish embassy and it was considered factual since Edith actually signed the letter. Word quickly spread through upperclass society - Violet received a letter about it and confronted Cora. Mary went away to London to stay with her aunt where she was shut out of society and the family began to suspect she might have to look outside of England to find a husband. Evenly Napier visited Mary in London and told her that, despite what she might think, he was not the origin of the rumor, her sister was which is why everyone accepted the story as truth. Mary stopped receiving offers or even interest from respectable men - only the newspaper asshole showed any interest in her and he had to result to blackmailing her with the threat of taking a rumor which was discussed only among the upper classes and their servants and turning it into a front page story that everyone in the country would know about* - and to a degree had to be saved by Matthew. *This is truly were Edith got lucky. Had that happened I have no doubt newspaper guy would have made sure to include the fact that Edith had actually signed the damn letter and that would have been the end of it.

Agree to disagree. Nothing I saw suggested Edith actually grew as a person. Having her secret outed didn't lead to any epiphanies regarding her treatment of Mary. No, she thought it was worse when it was done to her. Self-centered to the end. To clarify, I wouldn't have wanted Edith to just say the words, I would have wanted her to express true remorse. But she was incapable of that kind of self-reflection, humility, regret, sincerity, and concern. Edith, Edith, Edith. Agreed. Cora specifically mentions this to Violet.

There is no universally agreed upon reason for forgiving. And I'm an atheist so biblical parables aren't my thing. I think it's not always healthy to forgive someone who hasn't shown any remorse. And for me that's the most damning issue w/r/t Edith: she never once showed, even privately with only the audience as witnesses, any remorse for what she did. I generally feel the same about this whether it's in a show or real life and treat it the same. Makes it easier to discuss with others.

Why should Mary forgive Edith and be nice to her when Edith never apologized or took responsibility for what she did? Edith isn't some special angel everyone has to forgive. Mary wasn't a fan of disproportionate responses. If Edith made a remark, Mary would make one back. It was Edith who believed a a comment deserved a slap and a slap deserved a shot. I haven't seen a credible argument made that Mary's motive was anything less than revenge for the Pamuk letter. Edith's behavior was more than silly, it was petty, vindictive, pathetic, and intentional. I don't agree that she did any of it for attention, but I feel she did that's honestly even more pathetic. Like, learn a trade or be useful somehow. Stop picking finds then whining when you lose, Edith. Edith eventually learned to stop poking the bear all the time. In terms of growing up I'd say that's setting the bar pretty low. I would have liked to see her take responsibility for what she'd done and apologize to Mary, maybe finally talk to Robert about the Patrick situation if that was ever genuinely an issue for her and not just another way to play victim, apologize to the Drewes for the situation she put them in, etc. In my opinion, Edith was self-centered straight to the end though, only concerned with getting her own happy ending.

I disagree, I think there was plenty indication. I'm not giving Edith a gold star for having the opportunity to try to do even more damage to Mary but deciding not to, especially since there wasn't really an opportunity to do so. Matthew came around once he knew. The nuclear option was Mary's; outing Edith to the whole family as the letter writer. The deeds are more similar than running off Strallan. (What consideration did Edith have for any children Mary would have? The disregard for these things was appalling all around.)

I never said Mary hadn't lashed out at Edith before. I said she finally had the opportunity to inflict on Edith the damage Edith inflicted on her. The potential fallout from Marigold's parentage being revealed would've been comparable to the fallout Mary suffered after Edith wrote that letter. So? Edith is grown by the point all of this happens. Edith being younger doesn't entitle her to be constantly rude, constantly on the attack, without anyone responding in kind. If Edith were 12 or something during that season you'd have a point but Edith was an adult who more often than not got what was coming to her. Nope. Mary finds it amusing that Edith is only chiding her because Matthew was in cahoots with Mary at dinner after having rejected Edith. Had Matthew not rejected Edith and turned to her laughing at Strallan's outburst I don't doubt for a second Edith would've been laughing with him. Thus Mary's sarcastic response. Edith tried to get a hit in with "we seem to have a lot to talk about" which Mary picked up on thus her comment about Edith boasting. Yes, both women lost their men that night after behaving immaturely and deserved it.

I really hate that they hired Vincent D'Onofrio because he keeps using the same mannerisms (and to a degree the same line delivery) that he used to play the alien bug guy in Men In Black and it's just so so bad. I just rewatched 2x09, when he tries to have Frank killed in the prison, and I have no idea how Bernthal kept a straight face during their scenes.

Characters with flaws are realistic, every character being painfully unlikable isn't. Not only is it not realistic (or relatable), it doesn't make a show "prestige" tv, either. When certain people describe a tv drama as cerebral, revolutionary, an honest look at human interactions, etc., I know that means I'm going to hate probably every character.