AllyB

I think Buffy meant that Spike 'making' her want him was degrading in itself. She'd hated him for years and much of their sex was an outward expression of self-loathing on her part. But not entirely because by the end of season 5 Buffy had developed a modicum of respect for Spike and in season 6 she identified with him in some ways. Someone who truly, truly loved her wouldn't have had sex with her in the state she was in. If Angel had been around, he would have been saddened to see Buffy mirroring some of his darkness and would have endeavoured to build her up and regain her former positivity. If he saw that his relationship with her was stunting her ability to make healthy choices he would have walked away. It's what he did in season 3. Spike was ok with Buffy lowering herself to his level. He wasn't all bad, by season 6 he is a better 'person' than he had been, but he was ok with him and Buffy meeting in the middle because he got what he wanted. He took advantage of her, full advantage, and she was disgusted by that. I always wondered why Buffy's final conversation with the watchers in Checkpoint didn't go; Buffy: So here's how it's gonna work. You're gonna tell me everything you know. Then you're gonna go away. You'll contact me if and when you have any further information about Glory. The magic shop will remain open. Mr. Giles will stay here as my official Watcher, reinstated at full salary... Giles: [Coughs] Retroactive. Buffy: ...to be paid retroactively from the month he was fired. I will continue my work, (on a salary paid retroactively from the day I first met Merrick, any outstanding mortgage on my house or medical bills for my mother cleared, kick-ass ironclad medical insurance and a pension plan that will care for my little sister after my death) with the help of my friends... Buffy was no longer an unwordly teenager who would just accept a slayer being just her vocational duty. She realised her full power over the Watchers and as a new head of a household with a dependant teen, she should have insisted on renumeration for herself as well as Giles. Giles can make a living from his duties as watcher, in LA Angel, Cordy and co are charging for their world saving services but Buffy is supposed to hold down a job as well as her slayer duties? I can see how the watchers would want it that way as it gives them more control but Buffy ended the dynamic of a slayer doing what the council tells her to. She deserved to have her financial burden lifted. I'm in the minority who mostly loves season 6. I don't mind Buffy and her friends having a hard time of life at this period. Buffy was brought back from the dead, that had to have severe consequences. Buffy's depression and weariness at her renewed life. Willow's arrogance as her power grows, Xander's uncertainty about his future in the face of his friend's death and unhappiness at her resurrection all felt very real to me. But the severity of Buffy's financial issues and being forced into the Doublemeat Palace job just rang completely untrue when she is the focal point of an incredibly rich organisation. And just seemed like an unnecessary way to kick her when she was down.

You can tell that parts of this show were written by an alcoholic. My ex-husband is an alcoholic and when I look back on his drinking during our marriage with detachment it's interesting to see the evolution of his attempt to hide his booze stink. From not even trying at first, to then going the obvious mint route, which covers up nothing and just smells like minty booze. To going to strong flavours like cheese and onion crisps which does cover up the booze smell really well and would totally cover up something like gin. Though by that point if he came home smelling of something really strongly it was obviously an attempt to hide his drinking. Rob's immediate move to covering himself in cheese and onion crisps before going home probably just seems odd/quirky/not that notable to most viewers but I found it to be the most powerful and portentous part of the episode. Rob's previous problems with alcohol were obviously longterm and involved him learning how to cover-up and deceive following a lot of trial and error, which means he hurt at least one person very, very badly. The significance in the rest of the episode paled in comparison to me of Rob's drinking. He's firmly back on the booze and is hiding it pretty skilfully. Sharon has no experience of this side of him, so she doesn't realise that him stinking of cheese and onion signifies a potential descent into hell for their whole family. It sits very, very uncomfortably for me because Rob started drinking last season but when it comes out that he is drinking again, he may well try to blame Sharon for kissing the musician. And she is very likely to blame herself too. I'm expecting that (speculation based on real life events) Rob will soon learn of his mother's death and that will also be used as an excuse for his return to drinking. Even though the actual cause is that in season 2 he made a series of decisions that set him back on that path. It's making me dread the series, tbh. It could be insightful, compelling television but alcoholism is rarely portrayed realistically on television. And even though Delany has the same history of drinking as his character, he hasn't (that I know of) experience of being an alcoholic while in a serious relationship or as a parent, so may not know just how mentally and emotionally abusive the alcoholic becomes while trying to maintain their addiction and family on their own terms.

The thing with the famous school friend didn't work for me as the movie he was in was A Christmas Story and the scene they showed him in was the tongue sticking to the pole one. Adam, Dave Kim and Muscles were all amazed to see their classmate in the movie. Yet we learned in season 3 that Barry and Adam have a tradition of watching A Christmas Story every year and Adam's upset at Lainey taking his place led to both brothers having their tongue stuck to a pole.

Claudia would be Lorelai's first cousin twice removed. If Claudia had grandchildren, they would be Lorelai's third cousins. I know a few of my third cousins and I know lots of my second cousins and our children who are each other's third cousins play together at various family gatherings. And while I know that a third cousin is barely related if at all, it still does seem a bit icky as it's a degree of family that feels like family because I grew up knowing people of that genetic relationship as cousins. My late grandmother was so into oral genealogy that she once questioned one of my boyfriends for 10 minutes and worked out that he was my 4th cousin once removed. We didn't break up because of it but when we did split up "not dating a relative" was about third on my pro list.

Well this is tv, so I don't know how realistically they will show the process but I know a few ex-priests and becoming a full priest takes about the same level of time and commitment as becoming a doctor. The standard is to first earn a Bachelors Degree in a subject like philosophy and volunteer heavily in your local church. Coaching the youth basketball team wouldn't come close to the minimum required to show commitment, you'd need a much broader array of areas in which to volunteer and becoming a lay deacon would be a good idea. After that degree you'd enter the seminary where you study for a further 4 years. You essentially complete another degree Theology and Canon Law while becoming versed in the basics of ancient Greek and Latin. During this time you also receive pastoral training and what amounts to counselling about their relationship with God to make sure that it's a good fit. Once your study is finished you'd be ordained as a deacon and spend about a year in this 'junior priest' role before finally becoming eligible to be ordained as a full priest. That's a minimum of 8 years of very full on study and work and it's not really suited to people who don't have quite strong intellectual leanings. There are two types of priest, a diocesan priest who works in and serves a particular parish. That's what Father Brah appears to be (I think it's actually been stated). And a priest of a religious order like the Franciscans or Carmelites, etc. The latter take vows of poverty and have more limited levels of independence and social interaction, both in their work and personal lives, as their work is study heavy. Josh would almost certainly be envisioning life as a diocesan priest. But either way the process is intensive and Josh isn't remotely suited to it. Especially as we are at a point in time where so many of the men who do go through all of that and become ordained priests are leaving the priesthood in huge numbers. Despite their massive commitment to the priesthood, they still can't live the actual life of a priest. Realistically not only would Josh not make it past the initial stages of training but Fr Brah is statistically likely to leave the priesthood too as priests in his peer group are already more likely to quit than stay.

Fr Brah was one of Josh's childhood best friends, wasn't he? I'm not sure Josh would be going to chat so often to a priest who wasn't a peer and a friend. And volunteering with various church activities is no demonstration of faith. Josh enjoys doing sports activities with teens, coaching the basketball team at the church is the same as being a counsellor at the secular camp to Josh. He isn't especially religious as he has broken many of the tenets of the Catholic Church and has demonstrated that he has no genuine understanding of the faith. He may attend mass semi-regularly with his family, enjoy the community aspect and be willing to accept Fr Brah as a moral authority but he is not priest material.

I couldn't get my head around that either. Beverly's late teens and college era would have been the mid-late 60s or the possibly the very early 70s if you take the show as set in 89. The nearest she'd have gotten to disco would have been Dancing in the Streets and certain hits from The Supremes/Jackson 5 etc which are credited as being strong disco influences.

It also doesn't fit with Josh's character that he'd want to be a priest. While he is definitely a bit religious, he's also an overgrown child and he clearly really enjoys sex. It's also been implied that his move to and from New York had to do with his relationship with Valencia. The relationship was likely getting too much for Josh so he grabbed some sort of half assed 'opportunity' to move away from it. When that didn't work out, he went not just back to West Covina but straight back to Valencia and very quickly decided to move in with her. He's a weak man who will do all sorts of dramatic crap to avoid making tough decisions that might make him feel like the villain of his own story. Valencia wanted to move the relationship forward so he moved to New York so he didn't have to think about what was going on between them and possibly be the bad guy who breaks her heart. Valencia realises their relationship isn't right and breaks up with him, Josh 'realises' Rebecca has been the one for him all along. Rebecca admits to moving to West Covina, Josh moves in with her and treats her badly waiting for her to cock up so he can leave her without being the bad guy. Josh's new girlfriend dumps him, he loves Rebecca all over again. Josh realises marrying Rebecca isn't right, he suddenly wants to be a priest. It's just a huge pattern for him. I wouldn't be surprised if when the priesthood thing inevitably crashes and burns, Josh decides he loves Rebecca again. (Because I suspect he won't initially realise that all the awful things that are 'randomly' happening to him are the result of Rebecca's revenge.)

I can see why Rebecca let him keep the money. As far as her father has told her, the money is to pay for medical care for her little brother. If I was in a position to afford medical care for my half sibling, even if i didn't know him very well, and his parents couldn't afford it, I'd probably pay it. It's not her brother's fault that their dad is a scumbag, in fact her brother has also probably suffered due to their father's personality. Josh had been living in New York and hated it so he was literally leaving for the airport to go home when Rebecca met him. I don't think it's ever been explicitly stated but I feel it's been implied that the move to New York coincided with problems in his relationship with Valencia and his return to West Covina coincided with them reuniting.

And it's also worth remembering that Dr Akopian hasn't a clue of the extent of Rebecca's illness. She knows something is very wrong with her but she doesn't know that she set someone's house on fire and was institutionalised for it. She probably isn't assuming that Rebecca is such a potentially immediate danger to herself and potentially others so she doesn't feel the same urgency to stop/help her as she would if she knew what we now do.

I have a friend with bipolar disorder and her situation is very similar except that she was diagnosed as soon as she started showing symptoms as her mother also had bipolar which resulted in her suicide. My friend has decent control over her life when she is on her medication but they stunt her emotions and the longer she is on them the more unhappy she becomes. So she comes off them, feels great and if she can't be convinced back on to them, she ends up having the most terrifying manic episodes where she does some very, very scary and dangerous things. She had also developed a very unfortunate cycle where she dates guys who encourage her to come off her meds because they are drug addicts and see her as an easy source of pills. Comparing her life to Rebecca's I do have to wonder what the hell Naomi was thinking pushing her down the career path she was on. The long, long hours expected of lawyers in her New York office are usually nothing but dangerous for someone with Rebecca's problems. Even her pre-Nathaniel job at Whitefeather and Associates may have been too much for her. And in the real world her attitude toward her job would have gotten her fired as she was always skipping work or leaving early for various schemes. Knowing that Rebecca's perception of events is unreliable (Mrs H has always spoken) I have to wonder how the hearing in That Text Wasn't Meant For Josh really went. Did everyone really stop caring about the case and frantically help her work out what to do, eventually all agreeing that she should break and enter Josh's home just to delete it. I think we have to doubt that now. I can see everyone having a degree of sympathy for the situation and even agreeing to adjourn the hearing (though probably reluctantly) but they are very unlikely to have actually encouraged how she behaved.

Is the 'Nigel Farage looking motherfucker' on the plane not the Halliwell sister's father on Charmed. He looks a lot like him.

That said, I wonder how Hector's relationship with his mother would appear if Hector was a young woman. The friendship shared by many tv mother-daughter pairings, likeThe Gilmore Girls, are seen as mostly positive. Why can't a mother and son enjoy a close adult friendship in a similar way? Obviously Hector and his mother are played for laughs as minor characters, especially his mother who has only been in two scenes in this one episode. But from what we have seen of her she was open and friendly to Heather and keen to have her to dinner, suggesting she'd be supportive of Hector finding a romantic partner. And Heather, cynical Heather, seemed to genuinely approve of their dynamic. So I think MrsR might be right and Hector and his mother just do have a great, healthy relationship and we are just conditioned to find a mother-son pairing odd if they are so close.

But again, Paula doesn't know that Rebecca was genuinely contemplating suicide. She knows far, far less about Rebecca than we do. She certainly doesn't know that she's mentally unstable, she adores her as a daughter and also looks up to her on many levels. We know that Rebecca is so unstable that (other than already having a season three renewal) she might actually have jumped off the cliff. We know she is capable of doing awful, awful things to Josh if not drastically reined back. To Paula, Rebecca suffered an extreme hurt (the latest in a series of hurts) and very briefly flirted with the idea of an extreme reaction. In the space of a few minutes, Paula was horrified, sympathetic, terrified, relieved, furious, proud and settled on cold anger and protectiveness. She's also emotionally aware enough to know that all of her bad feelings are a fraction of what Rebecca is experiencing. She knows that's Josh's actions were the catalyst for all that pain, so she's angry with him and she knows Rebecca is angry. She also wants Rebecca to direct her anger at Josh rather than herself. Because what she does know about Rebecca is that Rebecca blamed herself for her father's shitty treatment of her and often blames herself for men treating her badly even when it's not justified. Being angry, extremely angry, at the man who has hurt her is normal and healthy as far as Paula is concerned because for most people it's an important stage of grief. Think Brenda Walsh fantasising about cutting off Kelly Taylor's hair or running after her and Dylan with an axe. Sure, given their history Paula has to know there may be hijinks ahead but if she's given that any thought at all she'll be thinking prawns in his curtain poles rather than cutting his brake lines.

l just caught up to this episode after binging the whole series this week. This episode was great after a second season that seemed to be struggling to find it's way once Fontana decided to leave between seasons. I feel really confident that season 3 will be fantastic, that Bloom knows what she's doing and that there is an overall storyline planned for Rebecca that will still work well even with the loss of a major character. I don't think Josh disrupted his patterns any more than an alcoholic disrupts their patterns by quitting drinking while developing an addiction to Xanax. He even described joining the priesthood as 'marrying Jesus' earlier in the episode. He's telling himself that he's broken his pattern but he's really just fooling himself. The crappy way he let Rebecca know what he was doing just goes to show that. Rebecca wasn't keeping that from Josh, she was keeping it from herself. She had completely repressed those memories and it was only when she looked at herself in the mirror while wearing a veil that she started to let those memories back into her consciousness. Then standing on the terrace overlooking the cliff after Josh abandoned her, she fully remembered what had happened. But Paula doesn't know how serious Rebecca actually is, she doesn't know Rebecca has form. If your best friend was just left at the alter, briefly contemplated suicide and had her worthless father call her crazy and say he's happy to have nothing to with her within minutes of all that you'd probably help her plot all sorts of awful revenge scenarios on her should have been husband. It's what pretty much everyone does. Paula probably plotted all sorts of ways to hurt Scott after he cheated, Heather was viciously throwing darts after Greg chose Rebecca, before that Greg had a photo of Rebecca on the dart board, etc. Very, very few people ever carry through on their crazy revenge plots but most people have them, it's cathartic when pain is deep and raw. In that moment Paula would just be helping Rebecca work through some anger. It will be interesting to see Paula realise that Rebecca will actually carry through on a lot of the worst revenge fantasies and how far Paula will go along with her. Paula was pretty crazy with the plotting in season 1 and I wouldn't be surprised if she uses Rebecca's revenge plots as a way of working through some of her anger at Scott's betrayal.

Reply on other thread;

Because we have listened to and read the personal stories of people who had similar and worse, far, far worse, things happen to them because of other religions. Or do you think being locked up for 50 years, forced into slave labour, being beaten and sexually abused, having your baby stolen and sold against your will or having the baby be refused medical treatment/hired out for medical experimentation and then thrown in a septic tank with 795 other dead children when it inevitably dies, is ok? Because that's the reality of the Roman Catholic Church up until very recently in my country. And when the 'grave' was discovered recently they lied, covered up and denigrated the women and children they imprisoned and tortured. That's not some random fundamentalist offshoot sect. It's one of the oldest and the second largest religion in the world* and the cover ups go right to the very top. *After Sunni Islam - and if we get started on the abuses endemic in that religion we'd be here forever.

Up until the late 70s/early 80s that is exactly what it was like in my country thanks to the Catholic church. Google Magdalene Laundries. Even today a simple thing such as getting your child educated without constant religious indoctrination is a very real struggle for minority religion/non religious parents. I'm 'lucky' in that putting my son's name down for a school when he was 4 months old means we will have the privilege of driving for 20 minutes each way to the only non-indoctrination school in our city, even though there are 12 state schools nearer our house, several of which are in short walking distance. My friend who put her son's name down 2 weeks after me is still on the waiting list. Tbh, anyone who thinks that Scientology is the only major organised religion to abuse their power in such terrifying ways needs to check their privilege. Ask the ordinary people of Iran, Saudi Arabia, even of Utah just how free to leave they are. Ask the Laundry survivors how free to leave they were. Ask them what happened to their babies forty years ago. Ask the women who died because the weakening heartbeat of a miscarrying foetus was prioritised over their right to live. Oh yeah, you can't they are dead. Google Savita Halappanavar or Sheila Hodgers. Throughout most of the world and most of history religion blights people's lives and civil rights on a daily basis. Scientology is awful and Remini is very brave and doing a wonderful thing with her current work. No doubt. But it's actually not the worst religion when it comes to abuse of it's followers (or the people with the misfortune to live in it's geographic sphere of influence). It's just probably the worst in the USA at present.

I was thinking about Mindy's medium place and was considering how medium you'd find it would be completely depend on the time period you died in. Someone from 1937 would have found Mindy's 80s mediumness quite heaven like, with the jukebox filled with easy listening musical, lots of novels and their own colour movies to watch at home whenever they like. It would have been like magic. If Eleanor had picked the things she wanted in her medium place she's probably have asked for Netflix/Prime/Hulu, etc, a good kindle, and a laptop/tablet for internet browsing. Then Trevor would probably have region locked her streaming services to the Swedish package so she'd have had to read subtitles and have a very limited selection of box sets and movies. Her kindle would have been cracked, she'd have needed a clip on light for it and would have been full of young adult sci-fi/fantasy and 'women's' psychological thrillers.. Her internet service would be very slow and the screen would keep freezing and obviously she wouldn't be able to contribute to any discussions on earth. She'd only be able to watch unboxing videos on youtube and she'd lose the wifi signal at the climax of any song she listened to. But it would still be fantastical and heavenly to Mindy with her VHS tapes and water marked books.

Erica is also not that different from how Mallory in Family Ties looked in some seasons. Though some of why the show isn't always quite fully 80s may have to do with the fact that the real Adam was a child of the 80s not really a teen. Adam was 13 when the 90s began so the age he would have been when the show began is contemporary to Saved by the Bell (Adam being just months older than Dustin Diamond - the only actor younger than his character) which is a quintessentially 90s show that started in 89. If you watch the real life clips you'll notice that apart from the ones where Adam is a still child, the year timestamp has been removed because they would have been filmed in the 90s.

I probably look like that when I'm playing dinosaur-dance on my 4 year old's Leap TV.

The one thing I always wonder is if they are all so good how are they ok with the vast, vast majority of humans being in the Bad Place. Most of these people worked to improve the lives of the less fortunate, they'd hardly stop caring just because those less fortunate will now endure hell forever. Truly good people would be trying to address that and not just blithely accepting their deserved place in heaven.

It's just occurred to me now that she missed Thanksgiving, Christmas and New Year in the months immediately following Richard's death and during Emily and Lorelai's fairly vicious estrangement. If my mother and grandmother had such a horrible falling out, immediately in the wake of a death of a loved one, I'd juggle everything else in my life to either help them mend their relationship or be there for each of them in what would be one of the very, very worst times in their lives. But Rory, couldn't even come home for Christmas! Whatever about Thanksgiving, because if she was actually working in the UK where nobody gives Thanksgiving anymore thought than a Facebook message to American friends before getting on with their Thursday. But at Christmas when a lot of the country is on a two week holiday and Rory is a freelance journalist of very middling success due mainly to lack of effort, she couldn't come home for a few days. The first Christmas after a bereavement is hell by itself. But Emily had only lost Richard about 10 weeks ago, had no relationship with her daughter due to a fall out around the same time, has no other family we have ever heard about and has no true friends. What exactly was Rory doing that took priority over being with the grandmother, who despite her flaws, has done so very much for Rory? In all probability, shagging Logan because he wasn't spending Christmas with Odette that year. She is the worst.

It's not just an extra hour or two though, is it. Grief is raw but somewhat distracted and protected before and during a funeral. It's the days afterwards when you need your family the most. Emily ideally need to have Lorelai and/or Rory around for the next few days at a minimum. But Rory was most likely prioritising crying in Logan's arms than being there for her grandmother who had just lost her partner of half a century and her whole sense of place in the world.

The way I rationalise is is that Richard has a very good job and a very good salary that he would live very comfortably on, especially as he is of the generation that could buy an absolutely brilliant house on the salary he would have earned in that role. Maybe not the Hartford Mansion they had, but certainly something like Lorelai's or the Twickham house. We know Richard comes from a wealthy lineage of Yale attendees. So presumably in addiction the money he borrowed from Trix at one point, he probably also had a trust fund from his grandparents (probably both sets) and from his father. Emily also likely had either a trust fund or a great inheritance from her mostly unmentioned family. I imagine that Emily's family were unlikely to have been as wealthy as the Gilmores but she still gained quite the nest egg from them. And that is how they had the mansion and the servants. If you have no debts, no mortgage and investments that run your mansion you can live very, very, very nicely on Richard's salary. And that's what I think made the show a lot less interesting than it would have been if they just had Richard's salary to live on because they had come from modest backgrounds. They would have been wealthy people but not able to turn to the magic pot of money whenever Lorelai needed it. Lorelai's pregnancy didn't really create enough jeopardy in their lives to justify the outcome. They could still have had Lorelai's rejection of their world and their bewilderment at it, without the Gilmore's being so fabulously wealthy. We could still have had Rory being drawn to their lifestyle and Lorelai's discomfort at it.